Israel rescuers: forest fire leaves about 40 dead

[sabbat hunter]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11901750

About 40 people have been killed by a forest fire that is raging out of control in the Carmel Mountains near the northern Israeli city of Haifa, the ambulance service says.

Police are evacuating thousands of people, including hundreds of prison inmates.

There were reports that a bus carrying 50 prisoners was trapped in the inferno after overturning.

I hope that they get the fire under control quickly and that no more lives are lost.

[henank]

1. 40 prison wardens killed. World offers help

In fact they were prison warden cadets, brought in to help evacuate Damon prison. They got overtaken by the flames.

Israel's deadliest fire leaves 40 dead

World offers help

Israeli authorities are expecting to receive some 20 firefighting aircraft Thursday night from Greece, Cyprus Spain, Croatia, Azerbaijan and Russian to help in the effort to contain the northern blaze that claimed at least 40 lives.

Despite the great diplomatic tensions vis-à-vis Israel, Turkish officials announced that they too will be sending two firefighting airplanes. Egypt also pledged to send a plane to help battle the blaze.

Kudos to Turkey for rising above regional tensions to help Israel. Also to Egypt.

12,000 evacuated so far

[azurnoir]

2. has there ben any report as to the reasn for the blaze?

this is from earlier today I wonder if the article has been since edited

Fire and Rescue Commissioner Shimon Romach said the fires in the Golan were likely sparked by an IDF artillery round fired during an exercise.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=176709

eta I have seen speculation in talks backs that it was of course Palestinians specifically Israel Palestinians

[oberliner]

3. That article is from May

It refers to a different fire from many months ago.

[azurnoir]

4. That is odd because it appeared in this mornings edition

however I note you did not correct the previous poster who claimed that all of countries mentioned offered Israel their help when in fact Israel requested the help of some them , why is that are ou trying to delegitimize certain posters or a certain poster?

[oberliner]

5. No, it didn't

The article you linked to is dated 5/28 and refers to a completely different incident.

[azurnoir]

6. yes the date is true but still and none the less it came from JPost

yesterday, unless you think that for some reason I would go back to last May is that the case?

[oberliner]

7. I honestly have no idea why you would post an article from May

You certainly appeared to be suggesting that the fire from May was the same as the fire going on now when you speculated on the causes.

Why you would do that, I do not know.

[azurnoir]

8. No that was not my intent however I did find this last night in Haaretz as to

the cause of the fire

By mid-evening Thursday, fire chiefs had admitted publicly to losing control of the fire, believed to have started in an illegal landfill site.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/mass-evacuations-as-huge-blaze-threatens-haifa-1.328517

albeit in the 'talkbacks' in the Israeli papers many place the blame on Arabs

[oberliner]

11. When you posted that link you knew it was referring to a different fire?

You didn't think it was talking about this fire?

Is that what you are claiming now?

[azurnoir]

12. No I did not know it was about a different fire as it came once again from yesterdays JPost

eta since I have already admitted my mistake what is your purpose here in continuing?

[oberliner]

13. It did not come from yesterday's JPost

It is from May!

I am happy to drop it at this point.

[azurnoir]

16. so you will call me a liar and run? doesn't change fact it was found in

yesterdays JPost

[oberliner]

17. A liar?

I just said you made a mistake. You posted an old article instead of a current one.

The date was on the top of the article at the link as May, not as December, so it's from May's JPost.

[azurnoir]

19. but it appeared in yesterdays IPost or else I would never have found it

I may have linked to it from related articles but it was most definitely yesterday

[oberliner]

20. Look at the date towards the top of the article

If one clicks on the link you provided, the article has the following information, just below the name of the author:

05/28/2010 04:34

That means it is not from yesterday's JPost, but rather from 5/28/2010.

[azurnoir]

21. yes I acknowledged that 10 posts back , you seem intent on almost

obsessively pursuing me on it though

[oberliner]

23. I told you I would drop it and you accused me of "running"

I agree that this is getting ridiculous - again, I say, let's let it drop.

[LeftishBrit]

9. Sad to hear this. Hope that the fire is soon under control.

40 people killed - that is horrible!

[oberliner]

10. 'We can't say that fire in the North is under control'

"We can't say that the fire is under control," Police Commissioner Dudi Cohen told reporters on Friday evening as the largest wildfire in Israeli history continued to burn in the Carmel hills south of Haifa.

Cohen added that despite the assistance received and the cooperation amongst various organizations, the fire is continuing to spread in several locations.

"The event has not yet ended and even now there are some locations where the fire has not been taken care of," Cohen said. "Perhaps we will be able to say by tomorrow afternoon. The strategic plan of the police is still to save lives and to bring the event to an end as quickly as possible."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/we-can-t-say-that-fire-in-the-north-is-under-control-1.328535

[oberliner]

14. Hezbollah overjoyed by fire

Arab networks celebrate fire disaster: Many Arab media outlets have been taking advantage of Israel's fire disaster to disparage the Jewish state and rejoice over its misfortune.

Meanwhile, officials in Jerusalem presented a grim assessment of the public relations damage suffered by Israel as result of its inability to effectively fight the fire.

"The PR damage in the world is huge; Israel is perceived as fully incompetent," one source said.

"The great Carmel fire embarrassed Israel's firefighting capabilities and proved its almost complete incompetence," a report by Hezbollah's al-Manar network said. The Lebanese station said the poor performance came despite Israeli claims regarding the IDF Home Front's full readiness to cope with any emergency and face the implications of an all-out war.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3993898,00.html

[arcticken]

22. An American Arab's joy

"I can't wait"
""Yesterday's catastrophe is just an example of the powerlessness that Israel's emergency services suffer from," said top-selling Israeli daily, Yedioth Ahronoth. "What would we have done if faced with dozens and hundreds of missiles that might have ignited fires in several areas, including urban areas with multi-story buildings?""

http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2010/12/i-cant-wait.html

[Violet_Crumble]

24. I'm curious as to what yr point is here...

Should we be judging Arabs or something? I find this post of yrs a bit strange considering how hard you tried to downplay the ugly and hatefilled attitudes of the spiritual leader of Shas when it was pointed out the influence two Shas Ministers hold in the current Israeli govt....

[arcticken]

25. Strawman as per usual. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Thanks for clarifying. I suspected bringing Arabs into it was a bit of a strawman n/t

[arcticken]

27. Derpa derpa. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

29. Oh-kay. When you feel up to contributing something intelligent to the thread, feel free to join in

[azurnoir]

32. what is sad here is thaat posters in fact the ones you would most expect

to acknowledge the horror of 40 people dieing in a fire, seem only intent on using this incident to promote their political ends

[Violet_Crumble]

40. I don't expect anything more from that particular poster...

It's very clear there's no compassion there and no matter how tragic something is, the only use for it is to pump it to pursue political points and to paint ugly stereotypes of Arabs...

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

15. Foreign firefighters aid Israel after 41 die

JERUSALEM: Firefighters from across Europe were rushing to assist Israel to fight a fire in the north of the country that has killed 41 people and prompted the evacuation of thousands.

Most of the dead were prison service trainees who had been sent to assist with the evacuation of a nearby prison.

They were killed when their bus became trapped in the fire and overturned. Two firefighters and a policeman have also died.

The Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, described the fire, the biggest in Israel's history, as an ''unprecedented catastrophe'' and issued an urgent call for international assistance, which was answered by Greece, Cyprus, Russia, France, Spain, Croatia and Turkey.

''Israel has suffered a harsh blow,'' Mr Netanyahu said, ''Evacuations will be conducted as needed, with sufficient advance warning. We do not want any more injuries.''

Yesterday at least 20 aircraft and scores of firefighters were on their way to assist Israel. Notably, Turkey, whose relations with Israel have been under severe strain, sent help and Jordan and Egypt promised aid.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/foreign-firefighters-aid-israel-after-41-die-20101203-18juw.html

I read this morning that the forest is a pine forest. I don't know if anyone else has seen how they burn, but when the pine plantations here burnt a few years ago, it was so huge and intense that the fire was generating lightning and fireballs. Really horrible stuff and I hope they get the one in Israel out soon with no more loss of life..

[azurnoir]

18. Thanks it is indeed a tragedy , being killed in a fire is a horrible way to die n/t

[sabbat hunter]

28. my hope is

that they were overcome by smoke before they actually burned so they would not feel teh pain of literally burning to death.

[azurnoir]

33. I thought the same thing but did not want to even write it

it is a phobia or me so thanks

[Violet_Crumble]

35. fwiw, I've read that most bushfire victims die of heat and smoke inhalation...

They would have likely been dead well before the fire got to them....

[Violet_Crumble]

30. The sooner they're under control, the sooner the expensive inquiries can commence...

I assume they'd have them in Israel in the aftermath of something like this? Incredibly long-running and amazingly expensive finger pointing exercises where blame is assigned and very few bother learning from the findings and applying them so similar things don't happen in future...

[eyl]

36. Long-running, expensive, and redundant

It's been known for years that the fire services are severely underfunded and undermanned; yet the problem was allowed to be neglected. We got away with it up to now because serious fires inside the cities are extremely rare in Israel.

In fairness, I suppose that even if the fire services had been properly funded, they might not have been able to handle this fire - it's unprecedented in ISraeli history in both its spread and lethality. A portion of that is due to sheer bad luck; this winter has been relatively hot and extremely dry (and even the summer was especially hot) - the last rainfall in the Carmel area was a month ago - which contributed to the spread of the fire, the weather over the last few days was particularly uncooperative with frequent wind changes, and most of the fatalities are due to a single bus which got caught in the flames.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. And if the authorities follow the example set here, the findings get totally ignored...

That way the next inquiry that's set up can be bigger, more long-running and even more costly than it's predecessors. I hope they look into why the bus was caught where it was so that something like that never happens again. And if the area is at risk of bushfires that they rethink planting pine trees. They're beyond nasty when they burn. The extreme conditions that fuelled the fire might be only a once in a lifetime type thing, but as with here, there needs to be plans in place to prevent fire breaking out and for dealing with it if and when it happens...

[Violet_Crumble]

42. Is there an appeal that people can donate to?

Not to get new fire equipment, but to help out those who've been evacuated or lost their homes? I had a look at the Israeli red cross site and they didn't have a specific appeal set up...

[azurnoir]

46. I would check with these folks and if they are not

they I am sure can direct you

http://www.hadassahaustralia.org/

[Violet_Crumble]

47. Thanks for the link, Az...

I'll get in touch with them...

[Violet_Crumble]

31. Blame flies over Israel's deadly fires

(Note: due to some confusion the last time I posted a link to something from the ABC, I thought I'd better point out that this is the Australian ABC, not the American one, and you can click on the LH side of the transcript if yr lazy and just want to listen.)


ELIZABETH JACKSON: In northern Israel, firefighters appear to have brought the worst blaze in the country's history under control.

But as Middle East Correspondent, Ben Knight reports the arrival of the foreign fire crews has been met with mixed emotions.

BEN KNIGHT: On the first day, there was horror and shock. But on the second day, the recriminations in Israel have begun.

It's now expected the fire will come under control today.

But that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the firebombers that were sent form the UK, Greece, Cyprus and, most humiliating of all, Turkey; a country whose relationship with Israel all but collapsed this year after Israeli commandos killed nine Turks on board a ship headed for Gaza.

Yet here was Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu thanking half a dozen countries for saving his own nation.

And that has wounded Israeli pride enormously.

And the columnists have been scathing.

In today's daily Ma'arive, Ben Caspit asked how "a country above which hover spy satellites, a country, which conducts chilling military operations around the globe, that plans to attack the nuclear plants of Iran and leads the world in hi-tech, is also the country that has its firefighting material run out after seven hours, whose fire-trucks date back to the previous century, and finds itself caught, standing in front of the flames, with its pants down?"

Alex Fishman of Yedioth Ahronoth asked a far more pointed question.

"What would we have done if faced with dozens or hundreds of missiles that might have ignited fires? Indeed started them in urban areas with multi-story buildings? Who in Israel is prepared to cope with this?"

It was only a year ago that Israel's firefighters were blocking the highways in protest, complaining that their equipment was out of date, and not up to the task.

That's unlikely to remain the case for much longer.

After a day of firebombing, by foreign air crews, the coastal city of Haifa appears to be safe.

And as the planes flew, grieving families buried the dead, and the residents of the villages and kibbutzes caught in the fire surveyed the damage.

At last count, more than 15,000 people had been evacuated, with 41 dead and more than 3,000 hectares of Israel's precious forest land burnt out.

And still, there's no end in sight to the drought that has fuelled the worst fire in the country's history.

On the scale of an Australian bushfire, it's been small. But in a tiny nation like Israel, this has been an unquestionable disaster, not just in loss of life and property, but in the damage it's done to Israel's self-belief.

This is Ben Knight , in Northern Israel reporting for Saturday AM.

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2010/s3084681.htm

[LeftishBrit]

34. All horribly sad.

[Violet_Crumble]

41. Palestinian firefighters battle Israel blazes

Palestinian firefighters have joined international efforts to put out the huge forest fire in northern Israel.

In a rare phone call on Saturday, Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu thanked Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas for his support.

Meanwhile, the Israeli authorities say that it may take up to a week to put out the fire and a number of countries have been helping tackle the blaze.

"There are three Russian aircrafts that are working in the area," said Israeli police spokesman, Mickey Rosenfeld.

"There is also a further six airplanes on the way to here, to Israel, from the international support and community, including France and the United States, Spain, Cyprus Italy and Hungary.

"All of this is in order to prevent the fires from spreading and to take control of the situation as quickly as possible."

At least 10 foreign firefighting planes have been flown to Israel to help control the massive bushfires that killed about 40 prison guards.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/12/05/3084953.htm?section=world

[oberliner]

43. Gaza Hamas leader: Carmel fires are Israel's divine punishment

The de-facto Palestinian prime minister in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh said Sunday that the massive forest fires in northern Israel served as a "strike from Allah ."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/gaza-hamas-leader-carmel-fires-are-israel-s-divine-punishment-1.329003

[arcticken]

48. Disgusting BS. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

44. Carmel wildfire contained after 77 hours

More than three days after initial blaze began near Druze village of Usfiya, firefighting authorities declare they have managed to gain control of biggest fire in Israel's history. Extinguishing operations to continue in coming days in bid to prevent fire from re-erupting

The Mount Carmel wildfire has been contained, Israel's firefighting authorities declared at 4:30 pm Sunday – about 77 hours after the initial fire broke out near the Druze village of Usfiya. It should be noted that the fire has not been fully put out in all places, and firefighters are still operating in those areas.

The Carmel firefighters were preparing for another night of activity aimed at preventing the fire from re-erupting in certain areas, with the hopes that rain would start raining at around 4 am, according to the weather forecast, and help the extinguishing operations

The police have authorized the evacuated residents of Nir Etzion, Ein Hod and Ein Hawd to return to their homes. Residents of Beit Oren are still ordered to stay away from their homes.

Amir Levy, commander of the western Galilee firefighting services said there was a lot of work left. "There are still dozens of small locations which have not been fully put out. The firefighting forces will operate near those communities and in strategic points in order to prevent the fire from re-erupting."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3994716,00.html

[Violet_Crumble]

45. And the religious nutters from all corners weigh in invoking their vengeful god....

Something about fire brings them out of the woodwork in all their glory. The same happens here as well... http://www.smh.com.au/national/pastors-abortion-dream-inflames-bushfire-tragedy-20090210-832f.html

Carmel wildfire punishment from God?"

Shas' spiritual leader Rabbi Ovadia Yosef implied on Saturday night that the fire raging on Mount Carmel in northern Israel was a punishment from God for religious offenses committed by the area's residents.

During his weekly sermon, the rabbi read a section from the Babylonian Talmud, which states that "the fire only exists in a place where Shabbat is desecrated."

"A number of houses were destroyed, entire neighborhoods were lost – all under supervision," the rabbi said. He recommended that people "study Torah, engage in good deeds, repent, observe Shabbat, and know the entire Halacha, and thanks to this God will apply a full recovery."

On Friday, a day after fires began blazing on the Mount Carmel range, ultra-Orthodox newspapers called for self-scrutiny, saying the disaster was a sign from God.

In its editorial, haredi paper Hamodia said the Carmel wildfires demanded that the people of Israel scrutinize their acts and ask themselves if they caused the disaster.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3994225,00.html

Gaza Hamas leader: Carmel fires are Israel's divine punishment

The de-facto Palestinian prime minister in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh said Sunday that the massive forest fires in northern Israel served as a "strike from Allah ."

Commenting on the fires in Israel, which killed 41 Israelis and burnt more than 50 square kilometers of forest, Hamas' Haniyeh told reporters that "those fires are divine strikes for what they did."

The Hamas strongman made the statements as he joined emergency prayers in Gaza City to ask for rain. He expressed hope rain would fall in the Palestinian territories, which like Israel, have been struck by an unprecedented dry season.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/gaza-hamas-leader-carmel-fires-are-israel-s-divine-punishment-1.329003

If we're going to look for a positive in that, it's that it's great to see religious nutters who are enemies agreeing that their deity did it out of anger, just not agreeing on the details of why...

[azurnoir]

49. Yishai refused fire truck donations from Christian group

Exclusive: Pro-Israel group had already provided 8 new vehicles, but says project collapsed after Shas took over Interior Ministry; rejection of contributions was based on religion, rabbi who founded charity group says.

http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=198183

[oberliner]

50. Yechiel Eckstein’s Mission to the Evangelicals

Back in the old days of those old-fashioned, red-blooded Christian missionaries, there were missions to just about every land and faith imaginable: mission to the heathen, mission to the Jews and even a mission to the world. Now, Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein, who largely deserves credit for the incredibly exploitative alliance forged by right-wing Israelis and American Jews with Christian evangelicals, has created his very own Mission to the Evangelicals. The difference being that Eckstein doesn’t want to make them Jews. He wants to make them Christian Zionists and he wants to use their money to support the Greater Land of Israel phenomenon represented by the settler movement. See this previous post I wrote about Eckstein.

Ze’ev Chafets wrote an illuminating profile of Rabbi Eckstein and his work with the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews in last Sunday’s New York Times Magazine. I came away from reading it thinking of him as the Jimmy Swaggart of the Jewish people.

Chafets story chronicles Eckstein’s evolution from an Anti-Defamation League staffer who came to believe that the ADL was missing the boat in refusing to consider evangelicals as a source of political and financial support for Israel; to the leader of a philanthropic powerhouse which has raised $250 million in the past eight years and is the second largest charity registered in the State of Israel. Eckstein has gone from a pariah within the ADL to a major power broker courted by the likes of Ariel Sharon.

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2005/07/28/yechiel-ecksteins-mission-to-the-evangelicals/

Do you think its best for Israel to keep some distance from this organization or no?

[azurnoir]

51. 14-year-old admits to accidentally starting Carmel fire

A 14-year-old boy from the Carmel region admitted Monday to throwing a piece of burning coal into the forest and causing what later became the largest and most devastating forest fire in Israel's history.

Police arrested the teen early on Monday, and he admitted during his interrogation to smoking a Hookah pipe in the forest, and later disposing the burning piece of coal into an open area in the woods, which caused a fire to erupt.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/14-year-old-admits-to-accidentally-starting-carmel-fire-1.329203

[xor]

52. Oh that sucks... That kid is going to be haunted by the deaths for the rest of his life...

[azurnoir]

53. Yes he most likely will be haunted for the rest of his life n/t