Hamas chief Yassin rejects coexistence with Israel

[Gimel]

Hamburg - Hamas spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed
Yassin has again rejected the continued existence
of Israel next to an independent Palestinian
state, telling a German news magazine a Jewish
state could be established in Europe.

<snip>

The bearded paraplegic, who is the founder and
spiritual leader of the largest and most
militant of all the Palestinian groups fighting
the Israeli occupation, also rejected the
symbolic Geneva Accord. The peace plan was
recently hammered out by opposition Israeli
politicians and Palestinian representatives.

"That plan is worse than the Oslo one, because
it abandons the right of return for the
refugees," he said.

The objective of Hamas was to ensure "all
Palestinians can live in their homeland, with
all religions together: Moslems, Christians and
Jews. We are against a Jewish apartheid state
on Palestinian soil."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/368956.html

The extremists on the Palestinian side support transfer.

[La_Serpiente]

1. What has the Mopaz party been saying lately?

:shrug: Just wondering.

[Darranar]

2. Er... right...

The objective of Hamas was to ensure "all
Palestinians can live in their homeland, with
all religions together: Moslems, Christians and
Jews. We are against a Jewish apartheid state
on Palestinian soil."

And Sharon wants a continguous Palestinian state that will not be a dependancy or a bantustan... :eyes:

[Gimel]

14. A Jewish State

A Jewish State belongs in Israel. Hamas is unable to accept that. The Palestinian state, when at long last established, will be one more Moslem state in the mideast.

[durutti]

20. No.

"The liberation of Palestine, from a spiritual point of view, will provide the Holy Land with an atmosphere of safety and tranquility, which in turn will safeguard the country's religious sanctuaries and guarantee freedom of worship and of visit to all, without discrimination of race, color, language, or religion. Accordingly, the people of Palestine look to all spiritual forces in the world for support." - Article 16, The PLO Charter

[Gimel]

24. Selective liberation

The "liberation" in this case, is exactly what Yassin is describing. The "spiritual point of view" is the point of view of the Palestinians. It is pure rhetoric, as the method to achieving their goal, the chosen method is that of a violent Jihad.

[drdon326]

3. ISRAEL = OCCUPIED TERRITORIES

to hamas and all the other murderous thugs.

(hows that for venom, ed)

[Darranar]

4. That's sadly true.

[Muddleoftheroad]

5. And a reason why peace is unlikely

I don't see any move by the Palestinians to shut down these rogue bastards. I wish they would.

[Darranar]

7. How exactly could they do so...

when the IDF has been unable to do so for years?

The only effective, long-term way of destroying the terrorists is through eliminating their popular support.

[GabysPoppy]

8. Please explain this one

"The only effective, long-term way of destroying the terrorists is through eliminating their popular support."

If "their popular support" is a majority of the Palestinian people (remember the polls 65& - 75& etc.), are you advocating their elimination?

I know you or I would never in a million years say that, so please clarify what you really meant.

[Darranar]

11. Okay...

I don't advocate elimination of every palestinian who supports terrorism, but rather implementation of policies that reduce their support of terrorism.

[GabysPoppy]

13. Go on

specifics please, not generalities

[Darranar]

16. Okay...

1. Halt settlement growth and begin dismantlement of the settlements.

2. Remove the wall.

3. Reduce incursions.

4. Give sincere support to such plans as the Geneva Accord.

5. Remove checkpoints within the West Bank, and reinstate them on the border.

6. Make all efforts to contact and negotiate with moderate Palestinian leaders.

[drdon326]

21. Fascinating....

GP
"The only effective, long-term way of destroying the terrorists is through eliminating their popular support."

Darranar
1. Halt settlement growth and begin dismantlement of the settlements.
2. Remove the wall.
3. Reduce incursions.
4. Give sincere support to such plans as the Geneva Accord.
5. Remove checkpoints within the West Bank, and reinstate them on the border.
6. Make all efforts to contact and negotiate with moderate Palestinian leaders.


Notice this mindset....destroy the terrorists??....oh yes israel
must do all these things.

And what should the PA/PLO do ?? N O T H I N G

And what should "all" the peace loving pal. population do
to stop terrorism ?? N O T H I N G

So basically israel SHOULD do everything and the pal's, they
have no obligation to do anything.

[edzontar]

23. The PA has been effectively destroyed....

And is riven with internal conflict.

We need to take steps to strengthen--REALLY strengthen, the position of moderates and peace-makers among the Palestinian leadership...

This means they have to be able to DELIVER something that will, in the long run, begin to erode support for the terrorists.

As for security, I personally believe that we should put a UN force in the area to help protect the Israeli people from terror attacks.

I don't think the IDF can do it without provoking more violence, and the PA is just too weak and divided to be really effective at this stage.

A UN force would not solve the problem overnight, but this, combined with Darranar's suggestions, would be a good start.

[drdon326]

25. ED....now that we're best buddies and everything....

ya know...I hear alot about this peaceful moderate wing
of the PA leadership......i dont see it.

AND I hear all about how the "VAST" MAJORITY of the
palestinian population want peace...i dont see it and
and dont see this VAST MAJORITY doing anything about
it.

In fact,I SEE the vast majority of the pal. population
supporting terrorism.

How does that work, ed??

[edzontar]

26. I agree with you that many do support terrorism...

But I do not think this is fixed in stone...it is a product of the situation, which has been deteriorating for the past three plus years now...

I am sure that a similar feeling of anger and rage has grown among the Israeli population as a result of the horrendous terror attacks.

What I am suggesting is that none of this will be easy to reverse, but that it IS in fact--over time, with careful work--reversable.....and I do feel that if a means to ratchet down the incidence of violence can be achieved, that this, along with improving conditions in the territories and helpful actions on both sides, can begin the process of coming to a new peace.

[Jack Rabbit]

32. Also

Many Palestinians may be supporting suicide bombings for the same reason many Americans support Bush's war on terror. Among those reasons are:

• Fear of being thought unpatriotic if one says otherwise;
• The submission to the black-or-white fallacy that opposing suicide bombing campaigns is to support one's own oppression;
• Successful propogating on the part of the right wing (i.e., terrorists and their hardcore supporters) that there is no alternative to a terror campaign.

This is not a defense of terrorism, but we would be wise to consider that popular support for terrorism among the Palesitinians, like popular support for Mr. Bush in America, is not that deep.

To use the findings of a poll showing that there is wide support for suicide bombing among the Palestinians to suggest that Palestinians are vicious barbarians incapable of governing themselves is suspect. If Palestinians are simply a vicious race by nature, why do 56% also support the Geneva Accord? Surely they know that if the Accord were to become the basis of a real peace agreement, it would mean that in exchange for peace and the sovereignty and independence of a Palestine encompassing the West Bank and Gaza, that they would give recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state and, for all intents and purposes, give up the right of return. This would suggest something that contradicts the thesis that Palestinians are vicious and incapable of governing themselves: namely, that Palestinians are capable of weighing options and making tough decsisions collectively.

Is there any voice among the Palestinians who would point out that blowing up civilians eating lunch or riding a bus, apart from being a war crime, is of dubious utility to Palestinian resistance? There may be such voices, but they are not being heard any more than views opposing Mr. Bush's approach to the war on terror are being heard in this country.

This hasn't been tried. It is entirely possible that if the Palestinian people were presented with a mode of resistance other than the one promoted by the Islamists, support for terrorism -- that is, attacks on Israel's civilian population -- would drop. This doesn't necesaarily mean nonviolent resistance, but it could. It could mean striking military and industrial targets that are more directly related to occupation and repression. It would be more effective as well as less vile to blow up a fleet of bulldozers that could otherwise be used to demolish Palestinian homes in order to make way for segregated settelments and segregated roads than to attack and kill a busload of harmless commuters.

Let's express our faith in democracy. Part of the democratic process is a free and independent press that will present differing points of view on issues concerning civic affairs. The American people have been denied this and as a result show wide support for a war on terror that in fact doesn't target terrorists. The Palestinian people have been denied this kind of facilitation of public discourse and as a result support a resistance movement that doesn't target the instruments of oppression. If there were any real democracy among the Americans or the Palestinians, things might be different.

[edzontar]

36. Thanks for making that point re-Bush/Iraq

I think this is a very telling parallel.

[Gimel]

42. Your first point is well founded

This fear is reinforced by the Palestinians who have been charged with cooperating with Israel and are executed without a trial. Many Palestinians have carried out attacks on Israelis because they fear being branded in sympathy with Israel.

[Jackie97]

41. If the majority of Palestinians in the OT support terrorism....

It might be because they're desperate from decades of brutal occupation. Darranar's suggestions would decrease over ninety percent of the support for terrorism.

[Darranar]

28. Well, you see, I was speaking of things ISRAEL could do...

because that was my original point - the PA can do nothing against the terrorists until Israel enacts policies that reduce Palestinian support for terrorism.

[Jack Rabbit]

33. Please read post number 32

There are things the Palestinians can do to reduce popular support for terrorism as well. I tried to make a few suggestions there.

[Darranar]

34. Yes, there are...

but without any sort of Israeli cooperation, such efforts would not accomplish much of anything.

There are things the Israeli Left can say or do to undermine Sharon. Until the terrorist attacks stop, however, I don't see much hope for progress in that area.

[Jack Rabbit]

37. Like many things, these acts should be taken indenpendently of the other

There are things the Israeli Left can say or do to undermine Sharon. Until the terrorist attacks stop, however, I don't see much hope for progress in that area.

The threat to the world peace does not come from Arabs, Jews or Americans. It comes from the political right, regardless of its nationality. Many hold to the belief that because one is of this race, nationality, religion or whatever, one the right to trample over the rights of others. This is odious and is what must be undermined.

No one should wait for anybody else to do so. No one should wait for some particular event.

The Geneva Accord is the result of reasonable men not waiting for a more opportune time to say that peace is possible and drawing a picture of what it might look like. We should take our inspiration from them. Undermining the right wing is something we should just do without waiting for leave or a cue from anyone else.

[Jackie97]

40. The PLO and the peace loving Palestinians don't have most of the power.

Israel does. Ninety-nine percent of peace is in their hands because they have about 99% of the power. What *can* the peaceful Palestinians do when they have no power? What can the PLO do if they're being overpowered?

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. Combo effort

Clearly, the Palestinians have vastly better sources of information about who and where the terrorists are. The terrorists themselves are no better armed than small arms and such. The problem is in the finding of such monsters.

Trust me, if the Palestinians were serious about going after these animals, there would be plenty of support for the effort from the U.S., Israel, the UN or the EU.

[Darranar]

12. They do?

Where do they acquire all this information?

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. Oh come on

They are the PA. That P means more than the I does in IDF.

They are connected to their people. If you don't think they can and do know such information then I am done discussing this with you.

[Darranar]

18. Uh...

They do not have as many resources as you seem to think. I ask you again: where would they get this information?

If the PA went after the terrorists, the terrorist supporters in the West Bank and Gaza would certainly not informm them of their movements.

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. If the PA led

Enough of the people would follow. They are there and they would be able to use their own people as a resource in ways Israel can't.

It's amazing you refuse to see that.

[Darranar]

30. Not until the PA's measures against terrorism have...

popular support!

[GabysPoppy]

31. Which is what has been said over and over again

The majority of the Palestinians are in support of the terrorism.

[edzontar]

10. This is easier said than done...

At present, Hamas has considerable support, and the PA has been weakened....

That said, this and other groups will obviously have to be dealt with..I would suggest through a combination of carefully applied force and diplomatic pressure....a la Ireland.

Of course, a look at the present situation in Ireland shows how difficult dealing with extremists on both sides can be, even in a situation where considerable progress has been made.

It may take generations for some of these passions to fade completely, but that is no reason not to try.

[edzontar]

6. You are right....

This guy and his followers are a very BIG part of the problem....

[Jackie97]

39. That's not true.

Some murderous thugs think that Israel equals Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria.

[durutti]

17. Big surprise.

Hamas needs to take a long walk off a short cliff.

[BJ]

19. Hamas is supported by the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood

...that is, in turn, financially supported by memebers of the Saudi Royal family.

[Jack Rabbit]

22. This is news?

Unfortunately not.

Only an rightwing idiot who thinks that war is part of God's plan to ehtinical cleanse the Levant of His enemies believes that this is possible. If that is God's plan, then I'll be the Devil's disciple and advocate diabolical doctrines like peace and democracy.

The rightwing idiots think that this this vision of the future is the way God intended it. However, the rest of us know that Israel is not going to be driven into the sea and that four and a half million Arabs living west of the Jordan River aren't going to just get up one day and waltz across the Allenby Bridge to satisfy Benny Elon and his minions. Any agreement among those of us condemned to live on this earth will be less than perfect; whatever that agreement is in its final form, it must begin with the reality that Arabs and Jews share the Levant and that each has equal rights with the other.

That is something entirely lost of Ahmed Yassin. May he receive his reward soon.

[edzontar]

27. Right On!!! Me for what you said!!!!

nt

[tinnypriv]

35. Roughly analogous to Tom Delay

Who is the third most powerful man in the United States government, by most accounts.

So, who are the extremists again?

[Jackie97]

38. What else is new?

I do like the hypocritical idea of setting up a Jewish state in Europe. He doesn't want a Jewish state on Palestinian soil, but it's okay to put it on European soil. One could argue that Europe does owe them that because of the holocaust. Telling it to the German press was a nice touch.