The battle on America's campuses

[drdon326]

There are currently about 65,000 students from Arab countries studying at American universities. According to Jewish sources, these students comprise the "foot soldiers" for the struggle, while the Americans, or Arab-Americans, are the leaders of the anti-Israeli activities. Most of the pro-Palestinian student organizations also take pride in having prominent Jewish activists who oppose Israel's policies in the territories.

"We are no longer dealing with the blunt anti-Semitism that we saw in the past," says William Rothschild, associate national director of education at the Anti-Defamation League. "It's no longer a case of here they tore off a mezuzah, there they wrote graffiti saying `dirty Jew.' Now we are seeing political anti-Semitism."

Another Jewish source argues that the campus movements opposing Israel are, in fact, not anti-Semitic, but that some of the members of these movements - extreme leftists and Muslim extremists - do not see all expressions of anti-Semitism as taboo.

Jonathan Kessler of AIPAC (American Israel Political Action Committee) says that Jews also make imprecise use of the term anti-Semitism. "Everyone gets all excited from one swastika that one idiot painted, but there is also anti-Semitism used as a political tool by the anti-Israeli groups, which aims to keep people from supporting Israel." Thus, for example, when the newspaper of Illinois University writes, "the Jews control America," the goal is actually to dissuade Jews from getting involved in politics and the public debate.


Not everyone regards anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist expressions, blatant as they may be, as evidence of anti-Semitism on campuses. Avraham Infeld, president of the Hillel organization, says that most of the activity that he and his staff witness is directed against the policies of the Israeli government and not against the state's right to exist. "I can't call this anti-Semitism," he says. Infeld, who wears a kippa and is the first Israeli chosen to head the organization, says that Jewish students are sometimes frightened by anti-Israeli statements and see them as anti-Semitic. As evidence, he presented research data showing that 30 percent of Jews on campuses say there is anti-Semitism at their universities, but only 5 percent say they have personally encountered anti-Semitism. On the other hand, the statistics compiled by the Anti-Defamation League show a steady rise in expressions of anti-Semitism on American campuses in recent years.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/412327.html

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interesting article

[DarkPhenyx]

1. OK, I'll point this out one more time...

...for all the slow learners out there. Being anti-Isreal is not the same thing as being anti-Semitic. On this point the ADL is full of crap and is acting as nothing more than a lobbying group for an oppressive government.

[Gimel]

6. Not always

but in most cases, anti-Israel is also anti-Semitism. You'll have to sound a lot more convincing to oppose all the studies done on European anti-Semitic attacks and now the one in Montreal as well.

Let's say the Montreal attack on a Jewish school is anti-Semitic and just claims to protest the assassination of Yassin. Let's say it is a local group of nuts. Why are they using Israel's war on terrorism ans the incentive for the attack on a Jewish day school? Seems like they have anti-Israel and anti-Semitism confused, like a lot of those "nuts". If so, it is in fact the same. Anti-Israel is anti-Semitism.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

8. That is utter bull!

you can spread this theory as much as you want but it has 0% basis in logic.

To liken skin heads with anti-zionists because cowards use a letter and others as camouflage is ridiculous.

Seeing how the situation is being used as evidence of some wide sweeping anti-semitism by the left is sad.

listen to yourself

"Let's say the Montreal attack on a Jewish school is anti-Semitic and just claims to protest the assassination of Yassin. Let's say it is a local group of nuts. Why are they using Israel's war on terrorism ans the incentive for the attack on a Jewish day school? Seems like they have anti-Israel and anti-Semitism confused, like a lot of those "nuts". If so, it is in fact the same. Anti-Israel is anti-Semitism."

"Why are they using Israel's war on terrorism ans the incentive for the attack on a Jewish day school?"

why, because they claimed in a letter? Your question is the point. They wouldn't unless they were anti-semetic. No evidence of anything more than that except for wishful thinking by some.

Why do you want this to be the case?

B

[Violet_Crumble]

22. What complete rubbish...

'but in most cases, anti-Israel is also anti-Semitism.'

As I've been called 'anti-Israel' and an 'Israel-hater' more than a few times in this forum for merely being critical of Israel's policies towards the Palestinians, I'd be fascinated to know what you think makes someone 'anti-Israel'. Even if it doesn't include people like me who have repeatedly stated their support of a two-state solution, labelling those who support a one-state solution with equal rights and protection for all is totally out there....

It's unfortunate that there are people who as in the case of the barrier being built in the West Bank, don't really understand why they should be supporting it, but rely on the 'if the Israeli govt says it's good for Israel, then it's fine with me!' attitude. That in itself makes them no better than all those conservatives who accuse anyone who speaks out against US foreign policy of being 'anti-American', but what makes it even worse is when the same people who place such blind faith in the Israeli govt then turn around and accuse those who actually think and draw their own conclusions on issues of being anti-Israel and anti-Semitic...

Violet...

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

3. Not bad. Shows awareness of varying points of view and shades of feeling.

The crazy aunt in the attic is that Israel itself does a far
better job of inducing anti-Israel attitudes than any bunch of
foreign college students and their followers could ever hope to
do. Get rid of Sharon and the neanderthals in the government and
make a sincere effort to treat everybody like human beings and
things should brighten up right away.

[elsaamo]

16. Were you a fan of Israel when Barak and Rabin was prime minister?

I'm assuming that your reference to Sharon as a "neanderthal" implied that Israel's previous leaders were not that. Is my assumption incorrect? Were you pro-Israel when Barak and Rabin were the leaders?

[bemildred]

21. Take a Valium.

I am not a fan of anything.

I think the High School Football Game model of politics is wrong.
There are no political leaders of any stripe anywhere that I
am a fan of, I like the idea of people running their own affairs
democratically, and thus I subscribe to the 60s hippie dictum:

"FUCK LEADERS"

They are employees, they should do as they are told.

This statement:

I'm assuming that your reference to Sharon as a "neanderthal" implied that Israel's previous leaders were not that.

fails of grounds of elementary logic. I will allow the implication
that I called Sharon a neanderthal, but that infers nothing about the
past, not in logic, not in reason.

I have mixed feelings about Rabin, Barak can bite me.
Sharon is a corrupt thug. How is that?

EDIT: It would be most amusing if you, who appear to be new here,
were to have identified me as pro-Israeli. Please do be candid and
tell me if that is so, I will never use it against you.

[bluesoul]

4. I love this part

"Avraham Infeld, president of the Hillel organization, says that most of the activity that he and his staff witness is directed against the policies of the Israeli government and not against the state's right to exist."

Even Mr Infeld realises it.

[Aussie_Hillbilly]

5. That's an inspiring article!

I am always cheered by evidence that the pro-peace cause is spreading.

P.S. the "shocking" examples of anti-semitism and reactions to them were hilarious, and do more to discredit Likudniks than anything else.

Thanks for posting.

[Gimel]

7. "Shocking examples"

Burning a library full of books and frightening students in Canada or Europe may not sound too bad to you.

Look at the actual incident and realize how you would feel if:

Your families grave stones were knocked over and destroyed, your house of worship was vandalized, that is windows broken, valuable objects ruined, slogans condemning your religion scrawled on the walls.

Not shocking at all.

:eyes:

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

9. BULL! YOU ARE SPREADING PROPAGANDA AND LIES

WHAT IS YOUR EVIDENCE LINKING MONTREAL TO THE LEFT AND UNIVERSITIES?

YOU ARE SPREADING PROPAGANDA

STOP IT

[Aussie_Hillbilly]

11. I would be livid with rage

The Nazis who did that are evil, political-fringe scum. I look forward to them being prosecuted in a court of law and punished to the full extent possible. Canada, unlike Israel, allows the accused a trial, instead of killing them with a missile from a distance.

By way of contrast, many in the Likud party in Israel support full ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. And Likud is the ruling party, not just a fringe group lurking in the shadows. :puke:

Israeli school children write letters to the occupation soldiers, begging them to kill as many "Arabs" as possible. Just two of the many differences between the West and Israel.

Please desist your attempts to draw dishonest comparisons. You dishonour both yourself and your "cause".

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. Ah what a generous helping of propaganda

Israel actually tries many of the terrorist scum. However, some are so dangerous that it can't afford to risk having them on the loose. And a military operation to capture them would potentially cost dozens of lives.

Yes, after 55 years of war with the Arabs (actually it's longer than that, but since the founding of Israel), many Israelis know their enemy and wish them dead. It's very unfortunate that opinions have hardened that much. However, ethnic cleansing is NOT the policy of Israel.

It has indeed been the policy of Israel's neighbors. :puke:

While a few Israeli school children might "write letters to the occupation soldiers, begging them to kill as many "Arabs" as possible," this is quite similar to what children would have done during WWII, urging American soldiers to kill "Japs." Now, when Israeli school children start strapping on bombs and blowing up civilians, we can talk.

Please desist your attempts to draw dishonest comparisons. You dishonour both yourself and your "cause."

[Violet_Crumble]

14. There were no dishonest comparisons there...

Just running back over the points...

Canada, unlike Israel, allows the accused a trial, instead of killing them with a missile from a distance.

Unless someone's been on a deserted island with no communication with the outside world, they'd be aware of the extrajudicial killings going on. You make endless ridiculous excuses why it's okay for Israel to do this, yet the bottom line is that Israel, unlike Canada, doesn't allow the accused a trial at all, and prefers to kill them with missiles with little to no regard for the innocent civilians they also kill...

By way of contrast, many in the Likud party in Israel support full ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. And Likud is the ruling party, not just a fringe group lurking in the shadows.

There's nothing in the way of dishonest comparisons with this point either. Yr comment that the policy of the Israeli govt isn't one of ethnic cleansing is arguing something that the poster yr replying to never said in the first place. And not having a policy of ethnic cleansing isn't very reassuring. Govts that carry out such disgusting practices don't tend to push legislation through and call it 'The 2004 Ethnic Cleansing Act'. They prefer to carry out their dirty work quietly because when it gets noticed that they are indeed committing ethnic cleansing, most times govts caught doing it will totally deny it's happening..

Israeli school children write letters to the occupation soldiers, begging them to kill as many "Arabs" as possible. Just two of the many differences between the West and Israel.

This point is true as well. Using an excuse that children back in WWII might have done the same is pointless. Times were different back then and it was a total war, and many things were done then that wouldn't be acceptable now. You should find the fact that children are so damaged by the conflict that they are writing to soldiers begging them to kill Arabs disturbing. Children are the big losers in this whole thing, and you should never forget that....

and from yr post:

'Yes, after 55 years of war with the Arabs (actually it's longer than that, but since the founding of Israel), many Israelis know their enemy and wish them dead.'

Got any evidence to support this claim of yrs that many Israelis wish Arabs dead? Sorry, but I doubt very much that's the case at all. Sure, there'd be the usual extremist religious nutters who'd feel that way, but not in any great numbers. My impression has always been that the population of Israel is a reasonably informed one, and many people possess more than the tiny shreds of intelligence and empathy with fellow human beings needed to realise that wishing death on other people is sick and would make them no better than the extremist groups who carry out attacks on Israeli civilians. And if I've been mistaken all this time, and Israelis are generally a bunch of hatemongering hounds baying for Arab blood, then why on earth would I be expected to feel sympathy for them when what they wish on others befalls them? I think I'm pretty safe though in believing that not many Israelis at all wish death on Arabs...

Violet...

[elsaamo]

17. Some general questions

1- You comment that Israel engages in extrajudicial killings. I was just wondering if any of the targets of Israeli attacks (on the civilians, I fully agree that Israel should and must be more careful to avoid any unintentioned casulaties, and we can discuss that later, but now I am referring only to the actual targets of the attacks) were considered by you to not be terrorists. Were any of the targeted people in fact sweet grandmothers, or were they all active members of terrorist organizations? This doesn't necessarily justify the actions, but I was wondering about your opinion anyway.

2-You seem to argue (I might be misunderstanding you here, and if I do, I apologize) that the Likud party is trying to engage in ethnic cleansing. You also note that the Likud party is the majority party, and can more or less do what it wants. I might be wrong here, but my impression is ethnic cleansing means the forced removal of a people, or an ethincity, rather, from an area, using either violent means (i.e. killing them) or just shipping them off. Either way, the goal would be that there would be less Palistineans (as that is, I am assuming, the ethinicity or whatever you want to call it to which you are referring) in the region now, then there were before Israel got there. This is quite clearly not the case. Do you think, therefore, that Israel is merely an incompetent ethnic cleanser (I guess is the word) or perhaps, do you have another explanation?

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Some general answers...

Extrajudicial assassinations

Of course some of them would be people who plan attacks on civilians. But some of them haven't been, and Israel has in the past carried out these attacks on moderate Palestinians. As for the ones where there's abundant evidence they have been planning attacks on civilians, I oppose extrajudicial assassinations, especially in the cases where everyone but the most extreme 'supporters' of Israel would agree that it would have been very easy for the alleged terrorist to be apprehended without resort to killing them (usually along with any innocent bystanders). And I don't oppose extrajudicial assassinations because I'm in any way a fan of folk like Yassin for example. I have about the same views on his death as I would if Sharon was killed in the same way. I oppose them because they're not being used as a last resort, I suspect they're violating international law, and even if I did agree with the tactic, it seems to be an abysmal failure if it's intent is to stop terrorism....

Ethnic cleansing

I'm not just saying that the Likud led govt has engaged in ethnic cleansing, even though they appear to be speeding things up. What I say is that it's been a common theme in all previous Israeli govts. Palestinians have been forcibly removed from parts of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Israeli-only settlements and bypass roads are evidence of that. And Palestinians have also fled areas because life has been made intolerable for them. From what I understand, that also falls under the label of ethnic cleansing. It may be a slow process, but it's one that's definately happening. Any argument that the Palestinian population in the West Bank is increasing, therefore it's not ethnic cleansing doesn't work. The fact is there's areas in the West Bank that have been cleansed of Palestinians, just like Saddam cleansed rural areas of Iraq of Kurds. Because there was a large Kurdish urban population remaining in Iraq doesn't make what he did any less ethnic cleansing. Now, if Israel were killing Palestinians in the areas it's put its illegal settlements in because they're Palestinians, that'd be genocide, and even though ethnic cleansing can be a warning sign of impending genocide, that hasn't happened...

Violet...

[Aussie_Hillbilly]

15. Who is propagandizing now?

On the subject of trials:

However, some are so dangerous that it can't afford to risk having them on the loose

Now imagine if a state other than your beloved Israel were to use that logic. Some Regime Changers are too dangerous to be left on the loose? Well, fire a missile at the White House. Drug Dealers are too dangerous to be left on the loose? Shoot every suspicious-looking African-American or Hispanic. Makes things so much simpler, right?

And when is Israel extending this policy to the dangerous terrorists within the IDF?

Yes, after 55 years of war with the Arabs (actually it's longer than that, but since the founding of Israel), many Israelis know their enemy and wish them dead. It's very unfortunate that opinions have hardened that much.

Yes, after 55 years of war with the Zionists (actually it's longer than that, but since the founding of Israel), many Palestinians know their enemy and wish them dead. It's very unfortunate that opinions have hardened that much.

That's just "unfortunate", right? :puke: Hypocrisy. Ethnic hatred is a disease, and your Israelis are no better than the terrorists in this regard.

However, ethnic cleansing is NOT the policy of Israel.

In 1989 Benjamin Netanyahu told students at Bar-Ilan University: "Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
more

Benjamin Netanyahu is now the Israeli Finance Minister.

And then (Jan 4, 2004) Uzi Cohen, a member of Ariel Sharon's Likud party said there was widespread support in Israel for “the idea of ethnic cleansing...Many people support the idea but few are willing to speak about it publicly.”
more

Ariel Sharon is yet to embrace ethnic cleansing openly - he prefers "softer" tactics like the Aparthied Wall and his land-confiscation laws.

While a few Israeli school children might "write letters to the occupation soldiers, begging them to kill as many "Arabs"...quite similar to what children would have done during WWII, urging American soldiers to kill "Japs."

Are American school children writing letters to occupation soldiers asking them to kill as many Iraqis as possible? Do you approve of this?

[elsaamo]

18. Comments

1- You seem to argue that the logic that some are so dangerous that they can't be allowed to run loose is flawed, and make some interesting points. I was just wondering if you make the same points when a policeman shoots a murderer who is running away. Or perhaps if you similarly comment about the slippery slope to the international forces who are chasing Osama bin Ladin as they are trying to shoot him. There are many slippery slopes and it is something which we have to watch out for, but nonetheless, that isn't an argument against it.

2- I haven't heard much about what Netanyahu said then, but he was prime minister for a number of years, as is now one of your most favorite people, Ariel Sharon, and as far as I know, there have not been any transfers of any sorts. As others have pointed out, the population of the Palistineans in the region has actually risen rather than dropped.

I should also comment that I find it mildly amusing that you were able to use the word "softer" and Ariel Sharon in the same sentence with only one set of scare marks, and actually being, I suspect, serious.

[Darranar]

10. So aiming "to keep people from supporting Israel"...

is anti-semitic?

What AIPAC seems to enjoy doing is aiming to keep people from supporting the Palestinians. Are they anti-Muslim?

[corporatewhore]

12. palestinians are also part of the semite tribe maybe AIPAC is anti semitic

[elsaamo]

19. You're a Cynthia Mckinney Democrat???!!!

Please feel free to explain yourself as quickly as you can.

[corporatewhore]

20. Cynthia McKinney is a Strong Progressive Woman

[IronLionZion]

24. So supporting human rights for Palestinians is anti-semitism?

Palestinians ARE Semitic people too!:crazy: :think: