Vanunu stonewalled...why?

[Comadreja]

The danger of nuclear arms was the main pretext for the invasion of Iraq. Iran is threatened in order to compel it to stop its nuclear efforts. Libya has surrendered and is dismantling its nuclear installations. So what about Israel?

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery04262004.html

"The security people declared from every podium that this is not revenge for all the shame Vanunu caused the security services, and is by no means just more persecution, but an essential security requirement. He must not be allowed to leave the country or to speak with foreigners and journalists, because he is in possession of secrets vital to the security of the state.

Everybody understands that he has no more secrets. What can a technician know after 18 years in jail, during which technology has advanced with giant steps?

But gradually it becomes clear what the security establishment is really afraid of. Vanunu is in a position to expose the close partnership with the United States in the development of Israel's nuclear armaments...." more

[Jim Sagle]

1. Vananu reeks.

[Djinn]

7. Yet another

well thought out, well researched and articulate piece there.
What would we do without your input Jim

Sharon smells...neerrny nerny ner ner...or something to that effect!:eyes:

[Forkboy]

9. Vanunu RAAAWWWWKKKKSSS dude!

:eyes:

[Jim Sagle]

13. No WAAAAAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hornito]

2. Vanunu is a hero...

n/t

[bemildred]

3. Vanunu was disobedient. That is why.

An example must be made to deter others.
It's not like there is some high principle at stake here.

[Muddleoftheroad]

4. Vanunu was a traitor to one of our closest allies

We are not likely to embrace the asshole.

[wuushew]

5. If you consider undeclared nuclear proliferation a crime

then Vanunu was a hero to the greater community of the rest of the world.

[Gimel]

6. proliferation?

That is sharing secrets or leaking nuclear radiation? I don't understand your accusation.

What the poster did not make clear, is that the restrictions on Vanunu are only for the next year. That is very limited, like a parole year. So what's the big deal? What spies or whistle blower has the US released? What about Jonathan Pollard who will never be released? His crimes are not greater than Vanunu's. Vanunu got 18 years in prison, while Pollard got life without the possibility of parole. Seems that Israel's treatment of Vanunu is abundantly more humane.

[Jim Sagle]

8. But Vanunu is ANTI-Israel. That makes him OK.

[Muddleoftheroad]

10. I don't have words enough for a traitor like him

Suffice it to say he got off lucky.

[Forkboy]

11. Tell us what you really think

c'mon,you can share...you're with friends!

[Muddleoftheroad]

12. Thanks for making me laugh

[Forkboy]

15. no problemo

just returning the favor.

[sushi]

14. You call him a traitor

because he told the truth? Strange! Now he can't do so many normal things, he might as well not be released. I wish him well.

[Muddleoftheroad]

17. I call him a traitor for betraying his country

That's the word for scum like him who reveal military secrets to deadly enemies.

[Forkboy]

18. so much hate

[Muddleoftheroad]

20. Not hate, survival

People who sell you out and aid enemies who wish to wipe you out are certainly not friends.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. Why does this only apply to Israel?

After all, you don't seem to have the same views about Palestinians who collaborate with Israel...

btw, since when has the British media been 'enemies who wish to wipe you out'? That's where Vanunu told the world about Israel's not very well kept secret...

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

38. No reply?

No surprises there ;)

Violet...

[sushi]

23. Vanunu told the truth

You seem to have a problem with telling the truth. I hope Vanunu has a better future than the past 18 years. He deserves it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. I hope his past haunts him forever

He betrayed his country. Telling military secrets can be truth. It doesn't make it a right thing to do.

[sushi]

31. Was Israel's nuclear arsenal

supposed to remain a secret? How long could they have kept it a secret, and why? The 18-year jail sentence was over the top, and they're still punishing him.

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Revealing military secrets in a time of war

Typically carries the sentence of death.

He got off easy.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vladimir]

16. No, really?

show of hands lads, who reckons Israel got help from the US in building its nuclear arsenal?

God, if there were prizes for stating the fucking obvious...

[Gimel]

22. Very doubtful

A lot of scientific information is available, but that is not the property of the US exclusively. The reactor is from France, by the way. And as Israel has never staged a nuclear test, it is doubtful that any of this violates international law on the matter.

[wuushew]

24. What about the 1979 joint South African/Israeli nuclear test?

On September 22, 1979, an American "Vela" satellite detected a distinctive double flash off the southern coast of Africa. The satellite data, together with other information from U.S. intelligence sources, offered strong evidence that the flash had been caused by a low-yield nuclear explosion. Defense Department and State Department officials pointed out that this was only the 42nd time that a satellite of this type had registered such a signal; and in the first 41 cases, according to these officials, the Vela had correctly detected atmospheric nuclear tests. A State Department official later told the Washington Post: "Look, the Vela satellite picked up a signature like this 41 times before. In every one of those 41 instances, there was never any question about the fact that a nuclear test had taken place. Each of those 41 was undeniably a nuclear explosion. This was, too."

A 1979 CIA memorandum stated that "of all the countries which might have been responsible for the 22 September event, Israel would probably have been the only one for which a clandestine approach would have been virtually its only option." The CIA also observed that Israelis had participated in South African nuclear research during the preceding several years.

In June 1980, the CIA reported to the National Security Council that a 2-3 kiloton nuclear test had taken place at the time and place of the Vela reading, and that it had probably involved Israel and South Africa. However, a panel of scientific experts assembled by the Carter White House analyzed the technical data and concluded that the information was too ambiguous to prove that the event was a nuclear test.

http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/israel/nuke.html

[Vladimir]

25. Yeah but come on

you really think the US had no hand at all in Israel's nuclear programme? Gimme a break. I'm not even going to argue the legality or otherwise of it, because these days it seems that its only illegal to build nuclear weapons until you already have them. But I would find it more than a bit incredible that the US was in no way involved - not saying they built the whole thing, but some level of assistance was surely there.

[Gimel]

26. Speculation

Both your comments and those of the previous poster "Wuushew" are based on pure speculation. Therefore, there is no confirmation of your charges.

Israeli scientists are as capable as American. Gimme a break. This Americans own the world attitude has gone too far.

With 41 previous tests, a 42 which may indicate that perhaps SA and SURELY Israel detonated a nuclear test indicates to me that 41 trials were ok but if there is a suspicion that Israel, for heaven's sake, should join the club, it would be blacklisted for ever.

[Vladimir]

27. Once again

I am not going to get into the legality debate. But I put this to you - Israel has received American assistance in nearly every other aspect of its military. Why should we assume that the nuclear side would be any different?

[Gimel]

28. Israel industries

have produced components that the Americans buy. I know you assume that everything was "bought" (err given) to Israel, but that isn't the case. You are really lop-sided in your assumptions.

[Vladimir]

30. I don't assume that in the slightest

I know perfectly well about Israel's indigenous industry, for example in the aviation sector where it has produced its own fighter and strike aircraft to complement those bought from the US, or indeed the tanks that it produces and so on. On the other hand, a lot of Israel's high-tech weapons sector collaborates with the US sector, and with the tanks in particular, Israel was led to develop them because the American supplied ones were no longer considered effective. It doesn't seem to me plausible that Israel would have developed a nuclear weapon without some US involvement - and you are right, all this is speculation. But it seems fairly safe speculation to me.

[Gimel]

32. The US bomb

was developed by German Jewish scientists, and that is fact. Science has always been international, and no one country owns the knowledge and methods used to develop munitions.

[Vladimir]

33. I know that as well

spare me the lecture on science will ya? I'm a physics PhD student, and my experiment involves the collaboration of some 20+ countries, so I hardly need it.

[Gimel]

35. It's a shame

that you failed to remember it, then.

[Vladimir]

37. LOL

How does Jewish German scientists developing a bomb for the US in the US imply Jewish Israeli scientists developing a bomb for Israel with no help at all from the US? I mean, it may have happened - I just don't find it very likely.

[Gimel]

39. You assume

By assuming that Israel had to have US help (specifically technological knowledge and materials) you are assuming that:

1) Israel couldn't acquire the specific knowledge and materials elsewhere

2) Israel technology was too backward to read the published scientific info and develop the required process on the fission of nuclear materials.

Neither of the above assumptions are valid, in my opinion. The first bit of relevant information is that Israel bought a nuclear reactor from France. Do you think they needed some US physicist to help them in research and production? It's a very unlikely scenario.

Did I leave anything out?

[Vladimir]

40. I reject both your points

The issue isn't one of being able, its an issue of being willing - i.e the practical as opposed to the theoretical. It is my view that in practice Israel would have worked with the US on this, whether it could develop it on its own or not. I find that a more likely scenario than one requiring no US involvment whatever.

[number6]

19. my vote , Vanunu = hero

:hi: have a nice day everyone :smoke: