Poll: 64% of Israeli Jews support encouraging Arabs to leave

[Classical_Liberal]

Poll: 64% of Israeli Jews support encouraging Arabs to leave

By Yulie Khromchenco, Haaretz Correspondent



A University of Haifa poll released Monday reveals that a majority of the Jewish public in Israel - 63.7 percent - believes that the government should encourage Israeli Arabs to emigrate from Israel.



The survey, conducted by the university's National Security Studies Center, also found that 48.6 percent of the Israeli Jews polled said the government was overly sympathetic to the Arab population.

Compared to similar polls conducted in 2001 and 2003, the current survey indicates an increase in the public's extremism.

The majority of Jewish respondents, 55.3 percent, said Israeli Arabs endangered national security, while 45.3 percent of those polled said they supported revoking Israeli Arabs' right to vote and hold political office.......

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/441646.html

[wtmusic]

1. What sort of encouragement do they recommend?

n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. Genocide, starvation, deprivation of medical care, destruction of homes nt

[drdon326]

3. Total bullshit.....

Israeli Arabs credit fence for newfound prosperity

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1087441302553


read the part that talks about the israeli arabs having:

credit cards
cell phones
new industrial zones
prosperity
PEACE

and my favorite...COUNTRY CLUBS.

SOUNDS LIKE THEY'RE REALLY HURTING:eyes:

[Classical_Liberal]

4. A couple of Israeli Arab businessmen credit the Wall for

prosperity, as reported by jpost. LOL! There were wealthy blacks even during segregation in the South. The creole blacks of New Orleans have been holding debutant balls since the 1860s. Besides that has nothing to do with the opinions of Israeli Jews wanting them to leave.

[wtmusic]

5. Cool...I hope they build a fence across my property too

:eyes:

[lgardengate]

7. I agree totaly!

I don't blame Israeli's for wanting peace and saftey in there own land.I think we all know they will never be safe no matter what they give up for "peace"...unless they just leave and return to europe and America. :crazy:

[Classical_Liberal]

10. If they wanted peace and safety they would build it on the green line

. They want more land on the west bank is what they want.

[number6]

9. how many

got a list of names ?

[library_max]

6. Does this remind anybody else of the Madagascar Plan? /nt

[Gimel]

13. Reminds me of xenophobic Europe

Research associate Dr. Dafna Kaneti-Nissim said the poll showcases a documented world-wide phenomenon in which people who feel threatened tend to develop hostility toward minorities living among them.
From the study

[library_max]

22. Okay, but there's a difference

between "hostility" and trying to get rid of people. These "here's your hat, what's your hurry?" approaches to ethnic minorities worry me because of what often happens when the minorities refuse to take the hint and leave voluntarily.

[The Magistrate]

8. This Unfortunate Statistic, Ma'am

Is a reflection of consequences to be expected from long hostilities, pressed actively. It is no accident support for such a position has risen dramatically since 2001, for that simply indicates support for this position has risen as the "Second Intafada" has continued. More than simple bigotry, though that is certainly present, is involved. One of the features of this recent bout of hostilities has been the expression of solidarity, through various means, by sizeable portions of the Arab populace of Israel, with the efforts of their cousins outside Israel. This was not a feature of previous periods of active hostilities, and is bound to have some effect on the views of Jewish citizens towards the citizen Arab minority.

It is a commonplace of arguement here that the frequent expressions of hate for Israeli Jews emmanating from some Arab Palestinians are best explained as results of Israeli actions toward Arab Palestinians, and not as expressions of simple bigotry. There is something to this argument, but it must be recognized that this arguement cuts both ways in the question, and that Arab Palestinian actions towards Israeli Jews have a similar effect on the latter. The fact is that people at war naturally come to fear, hate, and despise the people who are their foes, and the longer the war continues, the deeper these feelings run. That some Israeli Arabs can be shown to have acted in concert with the Arab Palestinian enemy will have the effect of tarring all with that same brush, unjust as that must certainly be in the great majority of cases.

Any attempt by an Israeli government to enact this popular feeling as official policy would certainly constitute a grave abuse of human rights, even if it were conducted by the most benign means, such as subsidy, conceiveable. It is frequently the duty of even a democratic government to stand against popular feeling, when this seeks to exercise a tyranny of the majority, and act in passionate injustice.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. It's simple bigotry...

I think there's no complex forms of bigotry. There can be complex reasons explaining the bigotry of some people, but even those complex reasons don't justify bigotry. In the long run, bigotry is always the same. And I disagree that people at war naturally come to fear, hate, and despise the people who are their foes. Wartime propaganda is what does it, and there's nothing natural about that...

Israeli-Arabs, just the same as many Japanese-Americans who were interred during WWII, aren't the foe. They're citizens of the same state as the morons who'd love to send them packing solely on account of their ethnicity, who are the same morons who more than likely turn around and squeal at the top of their lungs when bigotry is aimed at the group they belong to. Using Iraq as an example, I can totally understand the hatred and fear of US troops in Iraq, but I'll never understand it when that hatred and fear is turned on the American people...

Any attempt by an Israeli government to enact this popular feeling as official policy would certainly constitute a grave abuse of human rights, even if it were conducted by the most benign means, such as subsidy, conceiveable. It is frequently the duty of even a democratic government to stand against popular feeling, when this seeks to exercise a tyranny of the majority, and act in passionate injustice.

Yes, I agree with all of that. What I fear is that the Israeli government wouldn't believe that it or any previous govt has committed human rights abuses in the past, and that carrying out this one would raise nothing more than a flurry of noise and 'condemnation' from the international community, and denials from the Israeli govt that it did anything wrong...

Violet...

[The Magistrate]

12. We Doubtless, Ma'am, Will Continue To Differ

Concerning the moral effects of war.

It is my understanding of the phenomenon that hatred, fear, and contempt for the foe are necessary ingredients and inevitable results of it. War is the willingness to kill other people to secure one's own desires, which is something all people are strongly socialized not to do, at least within their own social group. This general conditioning must be broken down for the desire to kill to become pervasive, and the simplest way to do it is to remove the foe from the ranks of humankind. To regard one's own desires as reasons to kill, one must necessarily come to view oneself and one's own as immeasureably superior to the other that one is willing to kill in order to secure them. In the course of war, the enemy, of course, kills comrades and friends and fellows of one's own side, which must engender great fear for oneself, and redoubled hatred, for, fear being an extremely unpleasant condition, people always hate what frightens them, and often feel the surest way to remove fear is to destroy what has struck it into them. All of these things will come to operate whether there is any underlying bigotry present or not: though it is certainly easier to achieve this state when there is a solid foundation of bigotry already present, it will come to operate even on persons who initially bore no particular animosity, or even felt some affection for, the group which has become the foe of such a person's own group. There will be individual exceptions, of course, as there are to all general cases, but if these things were not overwhelmingly predominant in a social group, it would be impossible for it to carry out the exercise. Wartime propaganda, therefore, seems to me more a symptom than a cause of this state; a mere tool in the social armory employed to the end, which itself emerges from the process, just as other items of weaponry do.

Bigotry, it is worth pointing out, is the general and not the exceptional case among humankind. Like any living creature, humans favor kin against outsiders, and by extension of this close genetic commonality, favor those like themselves against those who are different. All human groups view their ways as superior to those of other human groups, and most all human groups in history have pressed that belief to the point of conquest and slavery when it could be done. That this is a natural and pervasive thing does not really make it right, or mean that individuals ought not to strive against it, but it does mean that it is a fact of life, and that struggle against it may prove fruitless. Only a great degree of homogeneity in aspect and ways throughout the world is ever likely, in the long run, to moderate the phenomenon much.

[Gimel]

14. Xenophobia

Not bigotry. Bigotry is acting on these feelings. Expressing choice in a phone interview which asks for preferences is something else.

How would you feel if yr children were killed in a terrorist attack and the world seemed to say "you deserve it for living?" I think I'd hate everybody too.

[Darranar]

15. Xenophobia of this sort IS bigoted...

Bigotry is a sentiment, not an action.

[Gimel]

16. I read it as a state of mind

Opinions on allowing Palestinians to remain in the country, even Arabs who identify with Palestinians are not proof of a bigoted state of mind.

[Darranar]

17. Advocating disallowing of Arab citizens in Israel IS bigoted...

there is no way around it.

Even advocating the "encouragement" of leaving is bigoted.

[Gimel]

18. Perhaps it is

but persons who agree with that as a measure are not necessarily bigoted. They may say that out of fear, feeling overwhelmed by the attacks which kill friends and family, thinking Israel should return to a simpler Jewish culture. That study, by the way, included everyone, even the settlers and ultra-orthodox, all levels of education. It has not yet been analyzed for details, such as educational level, employment, etc.

[Darranar]

19. Fear of a racial group is bigoted. n/t

[Gimel]

20. Only if it is irrational

In this case it is rational. I prefer a cultural group to racial, as there are few racial distinctions between Jews and Arabs.

[Darranar]

21. Irrational or rational, it is still bigoted...

and it's no more rational than, say, anti-semitic Palestinian sentiments.

[Gimel]

23. Fear based

Xenophobia is based on fear, whereas bigotry is based on creed. I am sure that it is the former.

The Hamas and other terrorists who seek to kill Israelis is bigotry, while Israeli rejection of Arabs is xenophobia.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. Xenopohobia is a form of bigotry...

Xenophobia is a fear or hatred of foreigners and strangers. Since when have Israeli-Arabs fallen into that category?

Bigotry is an intolerance of those whose religion, race, politics etc are different to their own. So, if someone voices something which indicates their intolerance of another group, they're being bigoted. It doesn't matter if they or others claim that they think like that out of fear, or that they're merely being rational - it's still bigotry. After all, freepers who refer to Arabs as 'sandniggers' etc, are bigoted, even though they won't do more than merely voice their opinion. They could also use the excuse of fear, just the same as any Palestinians could who express bigoted views about Israeli-Jews. And in all cases, fear isn't the sole domain of any one group of people, and their fears would be just as rational as anyone else who claims fear stops those beliefs from being bigotry....

Violet...

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Since when have Israeli-Arabs been enemies?

Or foreigners? Can you answer that one please. Because the common dictionary definitions of both xenophobia and bigotry are what I said they were....

Palestinians haven't been persecuted? They haven't suffered at the hands of Israel? Because to say that the hatred of one group of people isn't bigotry because of fear, means that the hatred of other groups of people isn't bigotry...

When other countries give travel advices, it's not aimed at a group of people, but warning of dangers of travelling to certain countries. That's got zero to do with bigotry...

Violet...

[Gimel]

27. In recent years

And I'm sure y've read the reports posted here, Israeli Arabs have supported the Palestinians, and there have been some involved in terror attacks or assisting in terror attacks on Israeli Jews. They are not enemies, but there are xenophobic reactions on both sides of this. For the most part, the violent attacks aren't coming from the Arab Israelis, but the support for the Palestinians and their cause, this been encouraging for good relationships between the two groups. I'm sure that y'are also aware, that this Intifada kicked off with the Arab Israeli riots in Oct. 2000, with violent demonstrations that threatened to erupt in the cities. It was controlled by Israeli police, but many Israelis were so frightened by it that they got in their cars and headed out of the cities.


Denying Israelis the right to peace in their homeland, teaching their children hatred, and launching forceful and massive attacks against innocent civilians, a media intifada, all are based on a concept of cultural superiority. That fits the definition of bigotry. It is intentional , institutionalized and instills in their people the idea that they have the right and obligation to kill Jews, and that they will be rewarded for it.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. The poll response was bigotry, not xenophobia...

Can you show me where you got these definitions of both xenophobia and bigotry that yr using? You said they were common dictionary definitions, yet I can't find one for xenophobia where the definition is anything different from what I said it was. As Israeli-Arabs aren't foreigners or strangers, the form of bigotry called xenophobia doesn't apply in this case...

Denying Israelis the right to peace in their homeland, teaching their children hatred, and launching forceful and massive attacks against innocent civilians, a media intifada, all are based on a concept of cultural superiority.

Who's doing this? I asked: 'Palestinians haven't been persecuted? They haven't suffered at the hands of Israel? Because to say that the hatred of one group of people isn't bigotry because of fear, means that the hatred of other groups of people isn't bigotry...' You didn't appear to answer the question. Also, can you explain how fear and hatred from Israeli-Jews is not bigotry, while fear and hatred from Palestinians in the Occupied Territories is? What you said applies equally if you apply it to Palestinians rather than Israelis...

Violet...

[Jim Sagle]

33. The Palestinians have experienced trouble. But they damn well have not

been persecuted. A people the majority of whom are determined to exterminate their enemies cannot justly claim persecution when their enemies defend themselves.

[Djinn]

32. PLease clarify

whether or not you are actually stating that it's RATIONAL for Jewish Israeli's to fear ALL non Jews and to wish for their expulsion.

Are you honestly stating that it is justified to beleive that ALL Arabs are a threat?

[Gimel]

34. The reference

This refers to foreign workers who some believe take the jobs that Israelis would have. It is a rational that has little validity, but that is another matter.

[Djinn]

35. from my reading this refers

to all Israeli arabs - not foreign workers. Where aer you getting that from? Even if it did are you claiming the "they take our jobs" (AKA Right wing talking point # 207) theory has validity?

It also speaks about denying those ISRAELI Arabs the right to vote - yet the right to vote of the arab population is constantly touted when trying to back up the much claimed (and seriously eroneous)"only democracy in the middle east" One wonders were these Israelis to get their wish what would be used as the justification for that fallacy after the expulsion and or disenfranchisement of Israeli arabs?

[Gimel]

38. Not "erroneous"

The Arab population has had the right to vote since the founding of the state, Arab men and women. How many Arab states have a vote for a representative government, and how many of those allow women to vote and be represented?

Since you haven't read the actual study, how do you know? Have you read the questions that were asked? The questions included giving work to foreign temporary residents, of which there are thousands in Israel. I have heard a discussion about this study and that was one of the points made by the person involved in the work.

This, of course, is of recent attitudes since the second Intifada. It does not reflect a change in the laws or voting rights of anyone. It was a study of attitudes, not of voting patterns or anything else.

[Djinn]

41. According to Haaretz

"A University of Haifa poll released Monday reveals that a majority of the Jewish public in Israel - 63.7 percent - believes that the government should encourage Israeli Arabs to emigrate from Israel"

Meaning that a majority of Israeli want the government to "encourage" (nice euphemism that one) Israeli citizens to leave on the basis of their religion/culture - not "temporary foreign workers"

It also mentions the large number of Israeli's who wish to remove voting rights from their fellow citizens - regardless of whether that'd ever happen - I just wonder if those same people would STILL wish to call Israel a democracy

[Gimel]

45. The poll

The study, which conducted a survey, not an actual vote, of just over 1,000 Israelis asked for opinions. It wasn't even a vote, so you cannot assume that Israel has suddenly become non-democratic.

[Djinn]

46. sigh

first of all - I don't personally beleive that Israel IS democratic and this poll does nothing to alter that one way or the other (democracy assumes more than just the right to vote) the closest thing to a democrcay in the middle east I'd accept but no more than that.

BUT I think you'll find if you actually bother to read my posts - that I say "Those people" and "these people" IE the ones that responded to the study, I wont generalise every Israeli from a small sample survey - you however are happy to state that because a small minority of Arabs (although few Israeli ones) commit acts of violence towards Jews that it's rational to support bigotry??

[Gimel]

48. Your interpretation

I never said that it was rational to support bigotry. I think this conversation is becoming a case of non-communication. Opinion polls conducted over the telephone have much less validity than those conducted in person. That is the reality of procedural design and analysis of results. People are less likely to take time to consider their answers when talking anonymously over the phone. Also, the study should be set up to get a random sample of all segments of the population, which is virtually impossible with telephone contacts. Timing could influence results, such that individuals contacted immediately after a major suicide bombing might feel differently than if they were contacted at a more calm period. These problems should be addressed by the professionals who are analyzing the results. The margin of error is not stated in the article either. This could be as much as 5%, and possibly larger. That does not mean that the final results will not include the statistical margin of error.

It has no relevance at all to the democratic form of government in Israel. How closely you have studied the Israeli system of government, is another issue.

[Gimel]

37. Rationality

The fear has a basis in the real attacks experienced. It doesn't have to have been all the Arabs, to make a "fear of Arabs syndrome". One experience can change an individual's attitude for life. Even if rationally you know that not all Arabs are terrorists, the fear remains. One never knows, in effect, which Arabs are Palestinian sympathizers, and might have a connection with terrorism.

There is a rational basis, the knowledge that attacks have occurred or "have been occurring frequently" is factual. To develop a phobia which includes all Arabs and perhaps all strangers (as they are not always distinguishable) is a common response to a danger.

[Djinn]

31. so in that case

if every non Jew living in Israel beleived that it'd be a good thing for all the Jews to leave that wouldn't have anything at all to do with anti-semitism?

[Gimel]

39. Hypothetically

Since the IDF doesn't attack Arabs and there have been few cases of Jews attacking Arabs for nationalistic reasons (non-Palestinians Arabs)I think that it would not have a basis in actual experience. Therefore on what basis would they want the Jews to leave? Because they are Jews?

[Djinn]

40. Right

"the IDF doesn't attack Arabs" :eyes:

[Gimel]

44. Reply

I meant Israeli Arabs. When has there been an IDF strike on Israeli Arabs? Our discussion was about the Israeli non-Jewish population, so your response is nonsensical.

[Djinn]

47. IF you type what you mean

it'd be easier to respond - my post makes perfect sense in reply to what you posted

[Gimel]

49. Clearly

The survey, conducted by the university's National Security Studies Center, also found that 48.6 percent of the Israeli Jews polled said the government was overly sympathetic to the Arab population.

The poll was an OPINION poll, not an analysis of government policy nor does it reflect the treatment of Arab population in Israel. I repeat: The IDF does not operate against Israeli Arabs. There are Arabs in many nationalities, and not all Arabs are Palestinians.

It does indicate a dangerous trend, and a widening split between the two communities, but the causes are not all on the side of the Israeli non-Arabs. Recent polls also have shown that Israeli Arabs are discontent and many want to leave. If they prefer living in a Muslim state, they should leave. It is their option as well.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

29. More than a third of Dutch are afraid of Muslims: Poll...

AMSTERDAM: More than one-third of the Dutch are afraid of Muslims and nearly three-quarters have little or no contact with people from that cultural background, according to a poll published yesterday.

Long known for its multicultural tolerance, the Netherlands has tightened its immigration policy since the 2002 general election, in which the party of murdered far-right politician Pim Fortuyn came second.

The survey of 813 Dutch adults by TNS NIPO pollsters for De Volkskrant newspaper found that 36 per cent of the Dutch feel threatened by Muslims in the Netherlands and only 15 per cent regard the culture positively.

Half of the respondents fear the Netherlands — which is home to an estimated 900,000 Muslims, or about 5.5 per cent of the population — could become the target of an attack by Muslim fundamentalists such as the Madrid train bombings.

Such worries are so strong that 48 per cent of people said they would move house should their neighbourhoods become home to a significant Islamic community.

...

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World_News&subsection=Rest+of+the+World&month=June2004&file=World_News2004062782538.xml

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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[lefty_mcduff]

36. Nah - not racist at all.

Progressive thinking too - "45.3 percent of those polled said they supported revoking Israeli Arabs' right to vote and hold political office".

Let's try -

"45.3 percent of those polled said they supported revoking Blacks' right to vote and hold political office"

"45.3 percent of those polled said they supported revoking womens right to vote and hold political office"

"45.3 percent of those polled said they supported revoking homosexuals right to vote and hold political office"

Nice.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

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[lefty_mcduff]

43. Yep

It's amazing really.