israel's right to exist.

[UpsideDownFlag]

ok, this is my 2nd post here in the IP forum ever. i am aware that most threads like this erupt into flamewars for some reason or another, but i hope this one can be different. here's the plan: i saw why i think israel has a right to exist, and you agree or disagree, and we debate it civilly. care to give it a try with me?

I think israel has a right to exist, and be supported by the US, because it is the only country in the entire middle east that has been liberalized and democratized to one extent or another. furthermore, it is leaps and bounds ahead of its neighbors on issues like women's rights, etc.

i think it should be supported by the US, because without our support, it may very well be swallowed whole by its neighbors, who have tried to do that very thing 3 times now.

eh?

[daveskilt]

1. sure they have a right to exist

If we start undoing countries that are less than 100 years old and were created by the british or americans then we would have to go and invade iraq!

now do they have a right to expand is another question? to build their little empire? not so much no.

[UpsideDownFlag]

2. i agree. i support their right to exist, but am a little sketchy about

their "provinces".

[idontwantaname]

3. this posts right to exist...

funny post. although i think IP guides outlaw postings like this...


New Threads
New threads must be based on a recently-published news item or op-ed piece. They may not be based on editorial cartoons or photographs. Citations and references should include a link to the original source. Exceptions will be allowed if, based on prior approval, the moderators feel a thread is appropriate.
All threads must be based on material originally published no more than 3 weeks ago. The "clock" does not restart if an article is republished. Exceptions will be allowed, if based on prior approval, the moderators feel a thread is appropriate.
The subject heading for threads must contain the title of the source article. The only exception is when you must shorten long titles or to make the subject of the article more clear.
Editorializations and comments are to be saved for the Message body and must be separate and distinct from the text of the article.

[UpsideDownFlag]

5. oh crap, im sorry, i didnt read those.

if this post needs to be deleted, so be it.

[ContraBass Black]

4. A right to exist , yes.

However, that does not include the right to Palestinian lands. Palestine also has a right to exist as a sovereign nation.

Furthermore, the financial and official support of Israel despite the occupation, incursions, settlements, and walling is excessive and may even constitute an endorsement.

[forgethell]

10. Define 'palestinian lands'

Do they include Israel pre-1967? The Palestinians don't seem to think so. Having been attacked several times by Arab countries, including Jordan, from whom the West BAnk was siezed, do they have the right to acquire 'defensible borderss'? if 'no', why not? If 'no', what does this do to their 'right to exist'?

[idontwantaname]

ut-oh. here come the hard questions.

jibjab. what do you think of forgethells post?

[jpgray]

6. What a great, original idea for a post!

Nevermind that it's against the rules and has been hashed out in casualty-strewn flamewars for the entirety of this board's existence.

edit: Seriously, read the forum rules here. :hi:

[UpsideDownFlag]

8. i just alerted on my post.

and asked if it was allowed.

[wettap]

7. South Africa under apartied also was a "democracy"...

... why should we have not supported its "right to exist"?

There is no "right to exist". And who hands out this "Right to Exist"??

Nations can only exist under the guise of force/violence against aggressors. Our own nation exists only because no one else can knock it off its pedastal. No other country props it up, the way that the United States ($4,000,000,000 and counting each year) props up Socialism and hatred in Israel.

[peacetalksforall]

9. Yes, they have a right to exist and so do Palesitinians, More

importantly, the U.S. has a RESPONSIBILITY to be neutral.

I despise the favoritism. Billions of dollars in aid, sharing on all levels, preferential treatment. No. No. No - if other people are denied the basics, opportunity, and self esteem.

[number6]

11. I disagree, but I support your post, let it stay

A. depends on what the definition of Right to Exist is..

B. and the definition of Democracy or ones definition of democracy
is .....

[number6]

12. not locked yet, .. good ....

Right to Exist, exist on or occupy other peoples property

can a Democracy be a state based on Religious discrimination ?

[UpsideDownFlag]

13. hmm. i was under the impression other religions were allowed.

[idontwantaname]

16. check into the JNF...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/474429.html

By Jackie Houri, Haaretz Correspondenjt

The Haifa Magistrate's Court will hear petitions Tuesday by the Arab Center
for Alternative Planning and the Association for Citizens' Rights against
the prohibition of leasing land in Karmiel's Givat Hamachosh neighborhood to
non-Jewish citizens.

<snip>

According to the petitioners, the Jewish National Fund, which holds the
land, said it forbids leasing land to Arabs in a pact with the state.

<snip>

The previous tender, published several months ago, did not restrict
participation to Jews only, and was halted after six Arab families won lots.
The administration claimed that it was temporarily frozen until land was
exchanged with the JNF, so as to allow the Arab families to receive their
lots.






OFF TOPIC----

Interior Ministry: Ethiopian women must give up families to immigrate

By Amiram BarkatHaaretz Correspondent
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/473203.html


The Interior Ministry is preventing dozens of Jewish women from immigrating
to Israel and joining their parents and siblings, unless they leave their
husbands and children behind in Ethiopia.

<more at website...>

[atreides1]

14. All Countries Have The Right To Exist

And perhaps the US should support them as long as that country's right to exist does not infringe on the sovereign rights of a neighboring country.

If Israel wishes to expand it's borders then it should do it alone, as should any other country.

As far as being liberalized and democratized, and being ahead of its neighbors on issues like women's rights, you have a point. With the exception of the Orthodox Israelis, who are not very liberal, democratic, and they do not teach the Torah to women, according to the Talmud "women are exempt from the study of the Torah." So while most of Israel may be leaps and bounds ahead on women's rights issues,
I don't think that the Orthodox section is that far from the norms of Israel's neighbors.

I think that Israel should be supported in its' defense, but not in any offensive endeavors that it might have, and if it comes down to
spending money to support Israel or spending money to help the poor, homeless, and those without health care here in the US, guess which way I'm voting.

I will not agree to support any country at the cost of my own people, and I think Israel would understand this way of thinking, it's part of their message to the world, and it should be ours as well.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

15. Yes, they have a right to exist

but so does an independent Palestinian state. The US should support Israel but not near as much as it does now. Many of the roots of the terrorist's hatred toward the US are because of the massive amount of support, money, weapons, etc that we give Israel.

[Lithos]

17. Locking per I/P guidelines

per I/P Guidelines

New threads must be based on a recently-published news item or op-ed piece. They may not be based on editorial cartoons or photographs. Citations and references should include a link to the original source. Exceptions will be allowed if, based on prior approval, the moderators feel a thread is appropriate.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground