NGOs meeting at UN call for embargo of Israel

[idontwantaname]

NGOs meeting at UN call for embargo of Israel

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/478466.html
By Shlomo Shamir, Haaretz Correspondent



NEW YORK - A non-governmental conference committee meeting Wednesday at
United Nations headquarters in New York adopted a resolution calling for UN
member nations and international bodies to increase their pressure on Israel
to put an end to the occupation.

The resolution included an explicit threat that "if Israel does not comply
, sanctions will be leveled and an arms embargo will
be put in place." The resolution also threatened economic divestment from
Israel.

<snip>

The NGO council is considered a pivotal international organization with
significant influence in the UN.

Analysts in New York believe the NGO threat of sanctions was in step with
opinions now being voiced in the UN. Palestinian representatives are
planning to submit a draft resolution on the West Bank separation barrier to
the General Assembly that would for the first time include the threat of
sanctions against Israel if it does not comply with the ruling issued by the
International Court of Justice in The Hague.

[OhioStateProgressive]

1. nice, the world is attempting to abandon the jews again(nt)

[idontwantaname]

2. did you even read the article?...

[OhioStateProgressive]

5. yes, and shame on the UN if they allow it(nt)

[IdaBriggs]

4. Or they are attempting to "encourage" creative problem solving. nt

[OhioStateProgressive]

7. hmmm

when the terrorists are stopped from killing israelis, then problem solving can start, until then the Israeli army has every right to occupy the territories

[Darranar]

8. No, Israel is not at all equivalent to Jews or Judaism. n/t

[OhioStateProgressive]

9. convenient shelter to hide behind(nt)

[Darranar]

11. Israel is not "the Jews". This is a fact...

not a "convenient shelter to hide behind".

[OhioStateProgressive]

12. israel is the jewish state, simple plain fact(nt)

[idontwantaname]

15. convenient shelter to hide behind.

to criticize the state is not the same as criticizing the religion or people which practice it.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[idontwantaname]

18. im afraid its not.

if i were to use a cross for my avatar and claim to be devoutly christian... and you tell me im guilty of theft would it make much sense for me to say you hate christians?

[OhioStateProgressive]

19. i believe...

criticizing Israel in this conflict is akin to something that is against the rules of the forum to say

[Darranar]

40. So?

That doesn't make actions taken against Israel anti-semitic.

Israel, while it claims to be a Jewish state, does not represent international Jewry. Even if it did, its actions wouldn't gain some strange shield that makes it impossible to criticize without criticizing Judaism.

One can criticize Israel without criticizing Judaism or Jews in general, just as one can criticize Iran without criticizing Islam or Muslims in general.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

138. Bullshit!

The world is trying to stop the land grab by settlers!

Divestment and embargoes are a fitting weapon against apartheid states such as Israel. It worked in South Africa! Now, if only the Palestinians could have a Nelson Mandela...

[aquart]

3. And this will make Palestinians stop blowing up buses?

I do the love the notion that the Israelis should simply submit to being murdered and stop making such a fuss about it.

And there must be irony in Palestinians screaming when their civilians are killed, but finding it perfectly acceptable to target Israeli children.

[OhioStateProgressive]

6. bingo!!, exactly!!

It is so ridiculous the amount of "pressure" put on Israel when the world basically just turns its head and fails to notice what the terrorists are doing to Israelis

[Violet_Crumble]

67. I keep on forgetting this conflict is solely about buses...

Shame on me! Of course you won't be able to point out anywhere in the article where it was even suggested that 'Israelis should simply submit to being murdered and stop making such a fuss about it' because it wasn't suggested....

And there must be irony in Palestinians screaming when their civilians are killed, but finding it perfectly acceptable to target Israeli children.

Of course that same sense of irony must strike you when Israelis scream when their civilians are killed, but find it perfectly acceptable to target Palestinian children?

Violet...

[OhioStateProgressive]

79. and again

Israel doesn't target Palestinian children, so get a new mantra

[Violet_Crumble]

81. Sorry, but I prefer facts...

And the fact is that Palestinian children have been targetted. Here's a few incidents, though because the report is a bit long in the tooth, I'm sure there's more. I've not included killings that are more likely due to indiscriminate shooting with no regard for children in the area, and only included ones that are unarguably intentional..

Khalil Ibrahim al-Mughrabi - killed by a high-velocity bullet in the head

Khalil Ibrahim al-Mughrabi was playing soccer and flying kites with his friends in a large open space near the border fence at Rafah, on 7 July 2001, when he was killed by a high-velocity bullet in the head. He was just 11 years old. His two friends, Ibrahim Kamel Abu Sussain, age 10, and 13-year-old Suleiman Turki Abu Rijal, were also shot and both sustained serious injuries.The shots came from an Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) post about 800 metres away and according to witnesses there were no disturbances or clashes in the area at that time. The IDF claimed that there had been rioting and throwing of fragmentation grenades in the area, but confidential IDF records showed that this was untrue.

Muhammad Ibrahim Hajaj, Ahmed Suleiman Abu Tayah and Ibrahim Reziq Omar - shot dead by the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) in the Gaza Strip

Muhammad Ibrahim Hajaj, Ahmed Suleiman Abu Tayah and Ibrahim Reziq Omar, all 14 years of age, were shot dead and several other children were wounded on 1 November 2000 by the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) in the Gaza Strip, in a place which over the past two years has been a regular demonstration site for children who gather to throw stones at IDF tanks and/or at the IDF tower. Muhammad Ibrahim Hajaj was shot in the neck and Ahmed Suleiman Abu Tayah and Ibrahim Reziq Omar were shot in the head and chest. All three died immediately. Several other children were wounded, including two 10-year-olds who were shot in the abdomen and in the right shoulder. According to eyewitnesses and to medical records, the children were fired on with live ammunition from a distance of about 150 metres.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE151472002?open&of=ENG-PSE#3

What are these kids? Terrorists, and therefore totally acceptable targets?

Violet...

[OhioStateProgressive]

83. web amnesty is an anti israeli web rag

those kids were killed Palestinians

the IDF came right out and said it

[Violet_Crumble]

88. AI isn't any sort of 'web rag'

I would have thought someone who knows all would have known that basic fact. Amnesty International is a major international human rights group, and the only anti label that can be slapped on them with accuracy is that they're opposed to violations of human rights, no matter who carries them out or where they happen. I suggest you familiarise yrself with AI before you try writing them off. See, I wasn't aware that 'anti Israeli web rags' speak out strongly not just about the killing of Palestinian civilians, but also against the killing of Israeli civilians....

Those kids that were targetted by the IDF weren't terrorists. Anyone who thinks they were obviously believes that the criteria for being labelled a terrorist is solely to be a Palestinian. And it should be clear that there's a huge level of hypocrisy involved in saying one is opposed to the killing of Israeli civilians while trying to justify and in some cases totally supporting the killing of Palestinian civilians....

Violet...

[OhioStateProgressive]

90. the web page is a web rag

I am very familar with AI

those are the people who blame the west for everything, and hide behind the "each small candle lights a corner of the dark" mantra

[Violet_Crumble]

92. No, yr not familiar with AI at all...

AI doesn't blame the west for everything, which you'd know if you bothered to do the most basic bit of reading of some of their reports. As they've been very critical of the PA and condemned attacks on Israeli civilians, they're a hell of a lot more impartial and credible than various anonymous internet posters who don't appear to be armed at all when it comes to facts and an ability to view the conflict as something where the victims are the civilians on both sides...

btw, those kids targetted by the IDF weren't terrorists. Thought I'd mention that again just in case you happened to miss it :)

Violet...

[OhioStateProgressive]

94. negative

the victims are the Israelis

[Darranar]

97. So there are no Palestinian victims?

Palestinian children shot by the IDF aren't victims?

[Violet_Crumble]

100. If they're Palestinian kids, they're not victims!

Palestinian = terrorist, or in the best case scenario, slightly unfortunate but totally understandable 'collateral damage' that we need not worry ourselves about, lest we be labelled terrible things...

Violet...

[Djinn]

131. Ah but ALL information sources are tainted VC

appaerntly absolutely everyone is a rabid anti-semite and therefore the only way to get the truth is to read what Israeli intelligence have to say....still pissing myself over that one

arguing with this guy is funny but is a bit like

[IdaBriggs]

10. I don't usually participate in this forum, so please explain to me....

How the UN attempting to enforce resolutions against Israel is "abandoning the Jews?" Is there some kool-aid I must drink, or some kind of insane assumption that the hard line the current administration has taken in Israel is helping Israeli and Palestinian children live in peace? Please bring me up to speed. Thank you.

[OhioStateProgressive]

13. sanctioning Israel for protecting its citizens

while doing very little to stop terrorists from blowing up buses and cafes

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OhioStateProgressive]

21. calling what Israel is doing as genocide is sick(nt)

[IdaBriggs]

23. I asked you a question. You are avoiding it.

Are you an advocate of genocide? If not, then the two sides will HAVE to learn to get along. Do you see an alternative? Also, there were several other questions in my post. Are you going to answer them?

[OhioStateProgressive]

24. there is no genocide, so the question is moot(nt)

[IdaBriggs]

25. Still ducking. Try again. Are YOU in favor of genocide? nt

[OhioStateProgressive]

27. you cannot duck a pitch that wasn't thrown(nt)

[IdaBriggs]

28. You are 3 for 3 -- cute, but still not answering. Last chance?

Do YOU believe in genocide as a solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? Please note I have yet to ask which side you would want to kill off. If you just want to be cutesy, that is okay; I just won't take anything you say seriously in the future if I opt not to put you on ignore. There is nothing wrong with just needing to "vent" your frustrations. I refer you back to my earlier questions (none of which you have yet answered).

Best, Ida :)

[idontwantaname]

29. ill give you a funddrive gold star if he actually answers your question.

... tick... tick... tick...

[OhioStateProgressive]

31. cute, but since genocide isn't happening the question means as much as...

..as asking me what i think about Australia taking over the world...of course since it didn't happen the question is stupid and meaningless

to ask a moral question about an issue, the issue has to actually be happening

[OhioStateProgressive]

30. listen here, very simple

of course i do not support genocide, but since there is no genocide in Israel or the territories your question is as relevant a purple elephant as the solution

[IdaBriggs]

32. Yeah! We are getting somewhere! Next question:

Do you agree we need to find a way for the children of Israel and Palestine to live together in peace? Please note I am not suggesting anything -- I am asking you a yes or no question, with the assumption that a "kill them all and let God sort them out" solution is NOT acceptable.

One Edit: Better Question -- Do you agree we need to find a way for the children of Israel and Palestine to live in peace? (took out together, as it makes assumptions about facts not in evidence)

[OhioStateProgressive]

33. you can't be serious

of course i do, but a five year old knows this, i also think everyone should be happy, nobody should be hungry, and we should all have a million dollars

come up with a solution?, my solution is for terrorism to stop, and when the palestinians give up terror, THEN AND ONLY THEN, Israel should have to stop the occupation

Terrorists are groups who declare there can be no negotiations, and since this is the case, israel must kill them, or the Palestinians must defeat them internally, since the Palestinian people are not stopping the terror themselves the answer relies on Israel to kill the terrorists

[IdaBriggs]

34. By your argument, Israel is a Terrorist State, correct?

Definition: "Terrorists are groups who declare there can be no negotiations <snip>" -- is that what you meant? (I am not voicing agreement or disagreement; I am repeating back your statement with a request for clarification.)

[OhioStateProgressive]

35. Israel has negotiated MANY times

would you like facts about how much left wing activity goes in Israel to support talks?

even Israeli right wing parties negotiate

show me where Hamass has negotiated!

[IdaBriggs]

36. So, Israel is NOT a Terrorist State, because it is willing to negotiate?

Is that what you meant? Are we in agreement on that score -- that Israel has negotiated in the past (we both say yes), and will negotiate in the future (are we both saying yes)? (I'm sorry we are having to do this one step at a time, but this is a very complicated issue, and this seems like the best way NOT to mistake each other.)

[OhioStateProgressive]

37. israel is not a terrorist state because israel is not a terrorist state

for the same reason, my computer is not a radio, because my computer is a computer, and a red crayon, is not a green marker, because it is a red crayon

[IdaBriggs]

38. Looks like we need to go back one step.

You said: "Terrorists are groups who declare there can be no negotiations <snip>" and "Israel has negotiated MANY times."

We are in agreement that Israel has negotiated in the past.

Do you think Israel should negotiate in the future or are they "done negotiating" at this point?

[OhioStateProgressive]

39. they negotiate when the terrorists are dead, or stop making terror

and that is the final discussion point, any point you raise outside of this is superflous and meaningless...when the terrorism stops, by either the terrorists all being killed by the Israeli army, or the average palestinian forcing them to stop making terror

[IdaBriggs]

41. Let's try another angle...who is a terrorist?

Please answer with numbers or better descriptions: Are "killable" terrorists people who --

1. are convicted as terrorists under law?
2. who kill people in the name of a cause?
3. who "help plan" killing people in the name of a cause?
4. who "provide funds" for killing people in the name of a cause?
5. who "provide ideas" for killing people in the name of a cause?
6. who WANT to kill people in the name of a cause?
7. who MIGHT kill people in the name of a cause?

[OhioStateProgressive]

45. whoever Israel deems a terrorist

it is a Democratic western nation, under the rule of law

I will not play the definition game with people who inherently support Palestinians over Israelis

[IdaBriggs]

47. Good. So let's get back to the issue --

Who is a terrorist? This is a bigger question than just Israel, so let's treat it that way, especially since we don't know how Israel makes up its minds about terrorists. What do YOU think? I have not shared my opinion yet; I just want to know what YOU think.

Are "killable" terrorists people who --

1. are convicted as terrorists under law?
2. who kill people in the name of a cause?
3. who "help plan" killing people in the name of a cause?
4. who "provide funds" for killing people in the name of a cause?
5. who "provide ideas" for killing people in the name of a cause?
6. who WANT to kill people in the name of a cause?
7. who MIGHT kill people in the name of a cause?

[OhioStateProgressive]

48. i'm an asshole

I suppose I went too far

[IdaBriggs]

49. You are so cute! Seriously. :)

I still don't know what your opinions are, so how can I be telling you if you are right or wrong? So far all I am doing is asking you to clarify your positions with Very Specific questions.

Personally, I believe if you want to solve the "real problem" -- Israeli and Palestinian children living in peace -- you need to ask as many questions as possible from as many different angles. Since you don't believe in genocide (as in kill everyone and let God sort them out), and you only want to "kill terrorists" then you had best be clear on who is a "killable" terrorist, and more importantly, if that is good long term solution *OR* if this is simply a bid for "job security" instead of (pardon the pun) fire prevention. Does that make sense to you?

[IdaBriggs]

50. It sounds like you are very passionate about the subject.

There is no crime in that. I really want to know what you think. :)

[OhioStateProgressive]

52. I am

I split my time between the USA and Israel, my fiancee is an Israeli jew of arab descent who recently got a discharge from the Israeli army, and many of my friends (through her) are soldiers in the Israeli Army.

Israelis fight very hard for peace, they are taught about peace in school from the time they are very small...they truly want to help the Palestinian people...they also feel very betrayed that through the 90's, when Arafat was shaking hands with Rabin and Clinton in Oslo, He was secretly making payments to Hamas to reimburse money for suicide missions with that same hand, and ordering more...they feel betrayed that in the Jenin operation they found documents that Arafat wrote saying "we will wash Tel Aviv with Jewish blood" in arabic, on the same day he made speeches in English denouncing terrorism

it goes on and on, they have been lied to, and all they want is to make a last ditch effort to save their people, but it seems most of the world condemns them, whilst it does very little to attempt to stop terror from Gaza and the West Bank

The ICC issues a huge judgement against Israel, blasting them for the wall, while only making a short one sentnece acknowledgement of the terror that created the wall in the first place

i apologize for my assholishness in previous messages, I do get very heated over this subject...and for that i am sorry

[IdaBriggs]

77. Its okay. Sounds like "venting"...

And there is nothing wrong with that sometimes, especially during "frustrated" moments. I would like to talk more, but I am now officially running late for work (and last night I had to go to bed). Perhaps we can communicate more later? I find the Socratic (question) method very helpful when I am banging my head on a wall of (feels like) impossible-to-solve-problem. Best, Ida :)

[Djinn]

134. if your fiance is an Israeli JEW

then she gets benefits and privilegdes that Israeli NON JEWS do not get - let alone the Palestinians living in the OT. Why would HER opinions or experiences here be in any way more "informed" than anyone elses when it comes to teh treatment of non jews in Israel??

[Djinn]

135. PLease stop lying about the

documents "

that Arafat wrote saying "we will wash Tel Aviv with Jewish blood"

it is absolute garbage.

Otherwise we just get to the point we're we all make up quotes by leaders of each side to suit our own viewpoints:

“a people as unfeeling as jackals.”
Rabbi David Samson of the Mercaz Harav Yeshiva describing Arabs

"Meanwhile, the Haganah was carrying out successful attacks on the other fronts ... The Arabs began fleeing in panic, shouting: "Deir Yassin!"
Begin writing in his book that there would have been no security for the State of Israel without the "victory" of Deir Yassin (p. 162 & 165)

"What is it about Islam as a whole and the Palestinians in particular? Is it some form of cultural deprivation? Is it some genetic defect? There is something that defies explanation in this continued murderousness."
Ze`ev Boim Deputy Minister of Defense

"It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable,"
The spiritual leader of Israel's ultra-orthodox Shas party (currently has 11 MKS), Rabbi Ovadia Yosef

Oh no sorry MY mistake they are all REAL quotes with verifiable well reported sources.

[Violet_Crumble]

71. Does that mean...

You also believe that when it comes to Iraq, whoever the US deems to be a terrorist must be a terrorist? If not, what's the difference between Israel and the US?

btw, Israel deems attacks on Israeli military targets to be terrorism. They're wrong...

Violet...

[OhioStateProgressive]

72. yes(nt)

[Darranar]

74. So what happens if two democracies with the rule of law...

disagree on who's a terrorist?

[Violet_Crumble]

91. But the US labels attacks on US forces in Iraq as terrorism...

Therefore labelling any resistance to the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq as being terrorism. I have to admit that I'm surprised that anyone at DU would blindly believe everything the Bush administration says on matters of terrorism...

Violet...

[Darranar]

73. So who they can kill and who they can refuse to negotiate with...

is entirely up to Israel?

Israel can declare all the Palestinians terrorists and kill them all, and that would be legitimate because they all would be "terrorists"?

[Darranar]

42. So Israel has an inherent quality that makes it not a terrorist state?

A computer has an inherent quality that makes it not a radio. Do what you will to a computer and it will never become a radio without ceasing to be a computer. The same is true of a red crayon and a green marker. But states can be terroristic without changing their identities. Israel's essence does not include not being a terrorist state. If Israel committed terrorist crimes, it would become a terrorist state, yet it would still be Israel. In order to show that Israel is not a terrorist state, you need more than the statement that Israel is not a terrorist state.

[OhioStateProgressive]

43. well, you can believe it is a terrorist state

but it isn't, so no discussion is necessary

[Darranar]

44. What an easy way to dodge actually making an argument!

"I'm right, you're wrong, therefore no discussion is necessary."

And I never said Israel was a terrorist state.

[OhioStateProgressive]

46. to even imply it is is disgusting

where in Israels charter does it state the goal of eliminating Palestinians?

Hamas's covenant does just that with Israel and jews

when does Israel carry out military action for the sole purpose of killing innocent people?

hamas, al aqsa, and hezbollah do to Israelis

when does Israel take Palestinians into custody and allow an angry mob to tear their intestines out by their bare hands?

the PA police in Ramallah did, to two Israeli citizens

playing the definition game doesn't work

[Violet_Crumble]

68. Hamas isn't the representative of the Palestinian people...

The PA is. And yr wrong. There's been little willingness to enter into genuine negotiations with the representatives of the Palestinian people, and when it comes to Sharon, it's been non-existant. Guess there's no time for diplomacy when there's so many terrorists to be run down by innocent Israeli jeeps that are just minding their own business ;)

Violet...

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[idontwantaname]

26. divestment campaigns

many nonviolent groups believe that economic divestment(similar to s.africa) is a way to deal with israels apartheid policy. this is not intended to "hurt" the state.

check out:

http://www.divest-from-israel-campaign.org/

[idontwantaname]

17. welcome to the I/P board Ida.

basically you have pro-israel and pro-palestinian folks here.

personally i think economic sanctions are an ok policy to discuss.

unfortunately the state of israel, secular or not, will always cry antisemitism if it is ever threatened(economical or militarily).

this board can be a zoo... which is why i think DU likes to keep everything separated from the rest of the folks.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jim Sagle]

137. Sanctions would be fitting if Israel were really an apartheid state. Since

it isn't, they aren't.

[Djinn]

51. I can bring you up to date

if you havn't had a chance to reach for the koolaid just yet:

1. criticism of Israel or the policies of certain Israeli political parties IS "code" for anti-semitism

2. If you happen to be Jewish (in regards to point one) then you are simply "self hating"

3. The terrorism of Jewish organsiations like the Stern Gang, Irgun etc were noble and never hurt civilians

4. The fact that the Pal Auth has acknowledged Israel's right to exist is to be ignored or explained away as "mere words"

5. The IDF never intentionally targets civilians

6. if a child throws a rock at a tank, shooting them is legitimate self defence

7. if a missile is fired into a residential building then the many residents who have nothing to do with "terror" are unfortunate collateral damage.

8. Settlers are not violent

9. The "wall" is a simple temporary fence and does not cut into Palestinian territories

10. Just because there was no "terorrism" before the first intifada and the settlements were STILL expanding is irrelevant.

And finally

11. Jews have every right to return to the ancestral homes their ancestors left over a thousand years ago - Palestinians expecting to return to the land THEY lived on 50 years ago simply want to "destroy Israel"

Hope this was of help in understanding the illogical starting points of many of the posters in the IP

[OhioStateProgressive]

53. point by point refutation

1. criticism of Israel or the policies of certain Israeli political parties IS "code" for anti-semitism...well, it usually is

2. If you happen to be Jewish (in regards to point one) then you are simply "self hating"... sadly that is how many people look at it

3. The terrorism of Jewish organsiations like the Stern Gang, Irgun etc were noble and never hurt civilians... no one said it

4. The fact that the Pal Auth has acknowledged Israel's right to exist is to be ignored or explained away as "mere words" documents uncovered in the Jenin operation with a written speech by arafat in arabic saying "we will wash tel aviv with jewish blood"

5. The IDF never intentionally targets civilians... correct, it doesn't

6. if a child throws a rock at a tank, shooting them is legitimate self defence.. israel does not shoot children for throwing rocks at tanks

7. if a missile is fired into a residential building then the many residents who have nothing to do with "terror" are unfortunate collateral damage. sadly that is how war goes

8. Settlers are not violent.. some are, and they are held accountable in Israeli court if they are

9. The "wall" is a simple temporary fence and does not cut into Palestinian territories... it is a temporary fence which has saved Israeli lives

10. Just because there was no "terorrism" before the first intifada and the settlements were STILL expanding is irrelevant. whoever led you to believe there wasn't terrorism before the first intifada was lying to you, there has been terrorism against Israel since 1948 and it has never stopped...terrorism is why israel occupied the territories in the first place

And finally

11. Jews have every right to return to the ancestral homes their ancestors left over a thousand years ago - Palestinians expecting to return to the land THEY lived on 50 years ago simply want to "destroy Israel" that is blatantly false...jews started migrating back to Judea in the late 1800's, 'palestinians' started moving there too, since the jews built cities and created economies, places where the displaced trans jordanians ( usually called Palestinians) came to work

[Djinn]

54. nope I don't think I'll bite

your patently false assertions and blatant bias (criticising Israel has nothing to do with hating jews...jews do it themselves - ISRAEL DOES NOT EQUAL JEWISH) are addressed elsewhere (and rebutted - NB: a rebuttal has to be a) true b) relevant to be a rebuttal most of yours are the assertion of opinion "usually it is" is NOT a rebuttal or a repetition of propaganda) and when you have already stated that a nation state can not be a terrorist and that your definition of terrorism is "what the palestinians and Chechens" do I would personally find arguing with you akin to smacking my head against a wall.

Feel free to call me an anti-semite or a self hater or whatever floats your boat :eyes:

[OhioStateProgressive]

55. that's fine

but I refuted every one of you false claims

but the truth tends to flog untruth on every occasion

[Djinn]

56. no you didn't

responding "well it is" is NOT a rebuttal, neither is posting outright provable falsehoods a rebuttal either

[OhioStateProgressive]

57. wrong again

everything I said was true

[Djinn]

58. how is

"well it usually is" and "correct it doesn't" a fact?? what planet are you on when THAT drivel passes for rebuttal.

Please provide a link btw for your hilarious "secert Jenin documents" claim - one that doesn't originate from LGF would be good

[OhioStateProgressive]

59. hehehe

http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/default.htm

spend a few hours reading, learn a few things outside of the post modern thought propaganda you are repeating

[Djinn]

60. post modern thought propaganda

oh man that's funny.

I wouldn't pretend that the Pal Auth themselves were a credible source yet you post this right wing drivel. Which btw does not even actually support your claim re the "wash tel aviv in jewish blood" claim

Once again - please post from a reputable independant source, something that verfies your claim that Arafat wrote a document in any language stating they would "wash Tel Aviv in Jewish blood" or admit you were either lying or deceived by "post modern thought propaganda"

[OhioStateProgressive]

61. and again

I am not lying, therefore I have nothing to admit

um, post modern thought philosophy is the philosophy of saying both sides are inherently equal in this conflict...which obviously I don't believe

and piss on your "independent' sources, the world and the international media is plainly biased against jews and Israel, so to find truthful facts about Israel and terrorism, you have to read Israeli intelligence

[Djinn]

62. right

everyone else in the world (including fellow Jews) are lying and only the Israeli intelligence community tells the truth - they'd be the first "intelligence" community anywhere to do that!

Even if this were true and not massively paranoid - that "source" DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM

Oh and BTW

"post modern thought philosophy is the philosophy of saying both sides are inherently equal in this conflict"

no it isn't Postmodernism disputes notions of monolithic universals in favour of multiple perspectives (loving the term "thought philosophy" btw LOL) - your grasp of philosophy is as rudimentary as your grasp of the realities of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

I'm off for a smoko now - healthier than arguing with your good self...Thank-you come again

[OhioStateProgressive]

63. hmmm

I just rechecked my post, I typed it, so therefore I still stand as correct

[Djinn]

64. WTF

"I just rechecked my post, I typed it, so therefore I still stand as correct"

you typed it so it is therefore correct...wow lemme guess you're God right?

a)You were WRONG about the Jenin document claim,
b)Your source was not credible and did not even support your claim anyway (btw feel free to use even the J Post here if you can)
c) Post modern philosophy does not mean what you say

[OhioStateProgressive]

65. first

I didn't define post modern thought, but merely said it is a post modern thought ideal to equate both sides as equals in this conflict, as much of post modern philosophy stems from blaming those with power, which obviously is Israel

second, the Jenin documents are true, you are probably one of the people who believe there was a massacre at Jenin, right?

third, I know MUCH more about this conflict than you do, actually living there and spending time on both sides of the Israeli Palestinian border

[Djinn]

66. living there doesn't make you an expert

especially as on an anonymous board ANYONE can claim to live anywhere

if the documents are true please provide a source (at this point I'll accept anything) that actually supports your claim.

BTW - I wasn't aware there was an Ohio state in Israel

[Violet_Crumble]

69. Funniest moment of my day so far...

third, I know MUCH more about this conflict than you do...

Bwaah ha ha!!! Okay, that was hilarious! Thanks for lightening up my day with a bit of laughter...

Violet...

[Djinn]

112. it's good isn't it

Just like everyone living in the US knows more about US history than anyone else, or ALL AUstralian's know the history of "terra nullius"

personally though I got a better laugh out of "i type therefore I am correct"

[Violet_Crumble]

118. Yeah, that one was a classic moment...

I don't know whether or not the intent's to provide us with a few laughs, but there's a fair few hilarious posts to pick from right now...

Violet...

[OhioStateProgressive]

122. yeah, after I get tired of going round and round, being an ass is fun(nt)

[Violet_Crumble]

126. I know I always get a laught out of others making arses of themselves

What more needs to be said?

[OhioStateProgressive]

128. maybe so, but there is still no Israeli terror(nt)

[Violet_Crumble]

70. Why would you think anyone here thinks both sides are inherently equal...

I assume yr talking about militarily? There's a huge inequality there, as Israel is infinitely more powerful militarily than the Palestinians...

A question I'd like to ask you is whether or not you believe that the value of civilians on both sides of the conflict is equal. Do you think that Israeli lives are more valuable than Palestinian lives? Because it's there where I strongly believe there's a total equality and think all civilian lives deserve protection....

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

82. Ohiostateprogressive?

Even though you posted only a post or so down from this question I asked you, you may have not spotted my question, so I'll just draw yr attention to it. Do you believe that the lives of all civilians, whether they're Israeli or Palestinian, are equally valuable in this conflict and equally deserving of protection?

Violet...

[OhioStateProgressive]

84. lives of terrorists are not equal to lives of innocent civilians

and motives matter...terrorists target innocents, the IDF targets terrorists

[Darranar]

85. So are all Palestinians terrorists? n/t

[OhioStateProgressive]

86. the ones israel targets(nt)

[Darranar]

96. So...

Israel always targets terrorists because anyone Israel targets is automatically a terrorist?

[Violet_Crumble]

87. Now can you answer the question I asked you?

I didn't ask you whether the lives of terrorists were equal to that of civilians. I asked you whether you believe the lives of Palestinian civilians and Israeli civilians are equally valuable...

Violet....

[OhioStateProgressive]

89. yes

but, the question has very little meaning since the civilians the Israelis target are terrorists, and the civilians the terrorists target are just innocent civilians.

when Israel, by accident, kills an innocent person, Israel holds an investigation, when the terrorists kill an innocent Israel, on purpose I might add, the terrorists, and their sympathizers celebrate in the streets

[Violet_Crumble]

93. You didn't answer the question...

Apart from some weird rambling trying to justify the deaths of Palestinian civilians as 'accidents'. Further up in this thread you've been given proof that the IDF does target Palestinian civilians. Unless you can explain how those kids were terrorists, all I'm seeing is an attempt to paint the killing of any Palestinian as that of killing a terrorist or totally understandable 'collateral damage'...

Violet...

[OhioStateProgressive]

95. collateral damage, it happens in war(nt)

[Violet_Crumble]

99. You don't think the lives of Israeli and Palestinian civilians are equally

valuable. That's an attitude that's totally disgusting, and should have no place at DU...

Violet...

[OhioStateProgressive]

101. your viewpoint is wrong

innocent people killed by Israel are sad cases of collateral damage

innocent people killed by the terrorists are the intended targets

BIG difference

[Violet_Crumble]

105. Why couldn't you answer my question?

A simple yes or no would have sufficed. That's why I know that yr views on the value of a life is light years apart from mine, as mine doesn't make a difference as to whether it's a Palestinian or Israeli civilian. Their lives are all equally valuable and they should all be protected from combatants. Yr logic leads to the conclusion that you'd think a large number of Israeli civilians being 'collateral damage' if Palestinians targetted a legitimate target inside Israel would be acceptable. That's exactly the same as finding large numbers of Palestinian civilian casualties acceptable if the IDF targets what Israel claims are terrorists. And while we're talking about 'collateral damage', was all that collateral damage carried out by the US in Vietnam acceptable? Was the collateral damage carried out by Germany during WWII acceptable and unavoidable? In many cases, what's labelled (in WWII as a hindsight thing since the term only came into being with Vietnam) as collateral damage still constitutes a serious violation of human rights and war crimes...

I've given you evidence that the IDF does indeed target Palestinian civilians. You still haven't explained how those kids that were killed were either terrorists or the case of an unfortunate 'accident'. Mind you, if we put down most of the killings carried out by the IDF to 'accidents', there's sure a hell of a lot of them and I'd be suggesting that the IDF must be the world's most clumsy military force...

Violet...

[OhioStateProgressive]

107. well, then you are missing the issue

you should be blaming the Palestinian leadership and terror groups for any innocent Palestinians who are killed, because if they stopped the terror Israel wouldn't have to make military incursions

[Darranar]

109. No, she should blame those who do it...

regardless of the provocation, someone's actions are someone's actions, and that person is responsible for them.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darranar]

115. I am not indifferent about terror, Israeli or Palestinian...

murdering innocent people, regardless of who does it, is despicable and completely unjustified.

[OhioStateProgressive]

117. there is no Israeli terror(nt)

[Violet_Crumble]

119. Yes there is

The Committee for Road Safety is one that springs straight to mind...

Violet...

[OhioStateProgressive]

121. there is no Israeli terror(nt)

[Violet_Crumble]

124. What do you think the Committee for Road Safety is?

It's a group that has carried out the murders of innocent Palestinians, including children. What are they if they're not terrorists?

Violet...

[OhioStateProgressive]

125. there is no Israeli terror(nt)

[Darranar]

127. A truth irrelevant of the facts, I suppose? n/t

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

130. The Israeli govt hasn't heard that 'fact' either...

Seeing as how at least two Israeli groups have been outlawed by the Israeli govt, can I take a bit of a guess that yr answer will be that the Israeli govt is wrong and yr right? ;)

Violet...

on edit: oh bum! I just noticed that I'm talking to thin air now. Just when I was having some fun!

[Violet_Crumble]

110. Can you possible address what I asked you about?

I didn't ask who was to blame for anything. I simply asked you whether or not you believe that the lives of Palestinian and Israeli civilians are equally valuable and worthy of the same level of protection. The inability to address that question has told me all I need to know, so thanks for not answering it, I guess...

I have the same lack of respect for the views of anyone who approaches the conflict in a simplistic manner and throws all the blame for everything on whatever side they choose to support, be it Palestinian or Israeli. If we want to play the blame-game (which I prefer to play with people who have a better knowledge of the conflict than you appear to), there's a hell of a lot of it to go around, and it all doesn't fall conveniently into any one camp....

Violet...

[OhioStateProgressive]

113. all blame falls on the Palestinian side, end of story(nt)

[Darranar]

114. Why? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

120. Because OSP has typed it, therefore it is correct! (nt)

[bemildred]

132. It's kinda like magic.

I wonder if the sanctions can be dealt with in a similar manner?

[Darranar]

98. Terrorists aren't civilians. n/t

[Darranar]

102. There have only been a very few investigations...

compared to the number of Palestinian non-combatants killed.

[OhioStateProgressive]

103. wrong

just because the Palestinian authority and hospitals say they aren't combatants doesn't mean they aren't...Israel has intelligence that says they are, i believe it...if a child is accidently kileld, it is terrible, but still just collateral damage...unlike the innocent people who the terrorists kill, which are the intended targets

[Darranar]

104. Plenty of innocents that Israel has not claimed are combatants...

have died in the Occupied Territories from Israeli bullets, and even of them only a handful of incidents have been investigated.

[OhioStateProgressive]

106. and you miss the issue again

mistakes happen, of course EVERY innocent person the terrorists kill are innocent victims, but I hear very little complaints about this from the pro palestinian people...always wanting to bring it back on the Israelis

[Darranar]

108. Well, obviously...

"EVERY innocent person the terrorists kill are innocent victims", the same is true of the IDF.

If you kill an innocent person, that person is an innocent victim.

[Darranar]

75. Point by point refutation of your point by point refutation...

1. criticism of Israel or the policies of certain Israeli political parties IS "code" for anti-semitism...well, it usually is

So Sharon is an anti-semite? After all, he has criticized certain Israeli political parties AND Israeli policy before....

2. If you happen to be Jewish (in regards to point one) then you are simply "self hating"... sadly that is how many people look at it

If "criticism of Israel" is "usually" anti-semitism then wouldn't it follow that "criticism of Israel" by Jews is "usually" a result of self-hate?

3. The terrorism of Jewish organsiations like the Stern Gang, Irgun etc were noble and never hurt civilians... no one said it

So was it terrorism?

4. The fact that the Pal Auth has acknowledged Israel's right to exist is to be ignored or explained away as "mere words" documents uncovered in the Jenin operation with a written speech by arafat in arabic saying "we will wash tel aviv with jewish blood"

One would think that if Arafat made a speech like that recently it would have been known without "documents" necessary to prove it.

5. The IDF never intentionally targets civilians... correct, it doesn't

Since you've already declared that anyone that Israel declares a terrorist is a terrorist (and therefore not a civilian) this is utterly pointless to argue.

6. if a child throws a rock at a tank, shooting them is legitimate self defence.. israel does not shoot children for throwing rocks at tanks

Usually they claim that (not supported by Palestinian witnesses) one of the children was throwing a bomb of some sort, but it never is clear that that actually happened.

7. if a missile is fired into a residential building then the many residents who have nothing to do with "terror" are unfortunate collateral damage. sadly that is how war goes

So entirely predictable civilian casualties can just be ignored? Why couldn't Israel have chosen to kill the terrorist leader somewhere else?

8. Settlers are not violent.. some are, and they are held accountable in Israeli court if they are

Only occassionally, and then often with minimal penalties.

9. The "wall" is a simple temporary fence and does not cut into Palestinian territories... it is a temporary fence which has saved Israeli lives

But since a fence on the Green Line would also save Israeli lives, that fact doesn't justify building it in the Occupied Territories.

10. Just because there was no "terorrism" before the first intifada and the settlements were STILL expanding is irrelevant... whoever led you to believe there wasn't terrorism before the first intifada was lying to you, there has been terrorism against Israel since 1948 and it has never stopped...terrorism is why israel occupied the territories in the first place

No, Israel occupied the territories because Israel conquered them and wanted them. Terrorism did exist then, and was usually responded to by deadly (and often indiscriminate) reprisals.

11. Jews have every right to return to the ancestral homes their ancestors left over a thousand years ago - Palestinians expecting to return to the land THEY lived on 50 years ago simply want to "destroy Israel" that is blatantly false...jews started migrating back to Judea in the late 1800's, 'palestinians' started moving there too, since the jews built cities and created economies, places where the displaced trans jordanians ( usually called Palestinians) came to work

This myth is inaccurate, the Palestinian population explosion was due to Western medicine, not immigration.

[OhioStateProgressive]

76. interersting

but since what you said is different than what I said in my post above, you are still wrong

[Darranar]

78. So you know all?

Your knowledge is complete and flawless, and everything you say is complete and utter truth?

[Djinn]

116. amazing isn't it

[IA_Seth]

80. LOL

How the hell do you figure? Post a fact rather than an opinion and maybe your words might mean something. I only have a few minutes, as I am at work, but your posts are just begging for response.

P.S. - What is "interersting" is how a guy as arrogant as you've been thus far can't spell interesting. Since everything you say is right should we all start spelling it your way (ie wrong)?

[Violet_Crumble]

123. I found something that might help out on fact vs opinion...

And I hope I've got something here that's not too hard to follow. It seems to be aimed at the infant/primary school age bracket, so it should be okay ;)

Reading Comprehension:Fact or Opinion?


Aren't the animated gifs ever so cute?


Violet...

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.