Abbas accuses Israel of incitement

[bemildred]

Mainly just so I could post this excerpt:

Israel's government, meanwhile, is to decide by the weekend whether to put of the withdrawal by three weeks, accommodating a religious holiday period, but signalling uncertainty and weakness in the face of settler opposition.

A stormy meeting of senior ministers on Tuesday ended with no decision. Both Sharon and his defence minister, Shaul Mofaz, came down on both sides of the issue.

al Jazeera

[Colorado Blue]

1. Personally, I think the delay would be a pain. But, given the

anger and distress levels of the settlers and their supporters, and given that there are religious matters which are important to many, I think we can deal with it.

Whatever makes the withdrawal happen, with the least amount of aggravation, is OK with me.

Also, beyond political considerations, the settlers are people also. One should have SOME compassion for them, even though they are pissing us off.

We disagree with their position, nevertheless they too are suffering and must uproot themselves and start over. Nothing about this situation is easy.

Comments?

[bemildred]

2. I tend to favor separation of Church and State.

While I don't favor abusing settlers anymore than I favor abusing
anyone, and I'm in no position to assess the tradeoffs myself, I
think it were sooner better done swiftly, like removing an abscessed tooth,

And the settlers are not due any favors either.

[Coastie for Truth]

3. To quote the Al Jazeera source

"The scheduling issue is that the evacuation of the 21 Gaza settlements and four in the West Bank would coincide with the annual period of mourning observant Jews mark for the destruction of the biblical temples, leading up to the fast day of Tisha B'Av on 14 August.

On the one hand, Sharon does not want the Gaza pullout to be added to the list of Jewish catastrophes associated with Tisha B'Av. --------- http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/DD5EC92D-26C3-4D06-BC13-12B6EF862DEE.htm

The Haredi would make the obvious comparison.

LET ME MAKE THE OBVIOUS COMPARISON - SO THAT APPENDERS WHO ARE BLIND TO CONTEXT AND SENSIBILITIES UNDERSTAND THIS ISSUE -OR DOES IT ONLY GO ONE WAY?: How would the Palestinians react to a Haredi March on the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock during Ramadan?

[bemildred]

4. Screw the Haredi. You're not going to make them happy no matter what.

But knock yourself out, have a good time.

[Coastie for Truth]

5. So, we can't do anything to antagonize the Palestinians during Ramadan

but we can piss off the observant Orthodox Jews during Tish a Bav any time we want to.

Insult Observant Orthodox Jews - and disregard sensitivities that go back to 70 CE, but bend over backwards to placate Palestinians.

That's real common sense, real decency, real Hamischekeit.

Might I suggest Matlans and Magida, "How to Be a Perfect Stranger: The Essential Religious Etiquette Handbook, 3rd Edition" and Magida and Matlans, "How to Be a Perfect Stranger: A Guide to Etiquette in Other People's Religious Ceremonies"

<><http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1893361012.01._PIdp-schmoo2,TopRight,7,-26_PE32_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg>

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1893361675/qid=1114093493/sr=8-4/ref=pd_ka_1/103-7823000-4319830?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1893361012/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/103-7823000-4319830?v=glance&s=books&n=507846&st=*

I have both and I highly recommend both.

[Colorado Blue]

6. Sorry, but that isn't fair. Judaism represents a broad

spectrum of tradition and belief, from the essentially secular to the Haredi.

All are important, all have a voice in the Jewish tradition.

Moreover, Israel is NOT a totalitarian state. Particularly on an issue such as this, which overlaps with the traditional mourning period for the destruction of the two temples, sensitivity must be shown to the minority and especially to those whose lives are being severely impacted by this withdrawal.

I'm surprised you feel this way. Progressives hold, as a matter of principle, that the rights of the individuals must be respected. Moreover, we most definitely hold that even religious beliefs we can't understand should at least be tolerated.

This actually reflects a perfect example of why Jews want to live in Israel. We get no fucking respect anywhere in the world, and day by day get LESS. Should we be denied it in our own nation?

Moreover, you and I are engaged in a civilized discussion on another thread, about Hamas and Hizbollah. Those groups are considerably more dangerous than the Haredi, indeed Hamas will NOT be taken off the list of terrorist organizations, and they are flexing considerable muscle in and around Israel and the P.A. territory. The Haredi rabbis may issue decrees from time to time that sound ridiculous to you, but Hamas and Hizbollah are engaged in politics on a WHOLE 'nother level.

If we can discuss Hamas and Hizbollah with respect for their POV, can't we extend the same courtesy to the Haredi and other observant Jews?

[bemildred]

7. Calm down.

I'm just saying they should not dictate state policy.
I would bet you that Jabba and Mofaz agree, but are afraid of
the political consquences.

Tolerance is a two-way street.
How tolerant are the Haredi of non-observant Jews?

Why should they decide when the withdrawal occurs?
They can do what they like as long as they don't infringe on others.
If I don't believe islamicists should be allowed to inflict their
beliefs on others, why should I support kowtowing to the Haredi?
Or any other religious faction for that matter?

[Coastie for Truth]

8. Hamische Menschkeit for Dummies 101

For Hamische Menschkeit for Dummies 101, might I be so un-Hamische as to suggest for your reading enjoyment and erudition-->

Matlans and Magida, "How to Be a Perfect Stranger: The Essential Religious Etiquette Handbook, 3rd Edition" and Magida and Matlans, "How to Be a Perfect Stranger: A Guide to Etiquette in Other People's Religious Ceremonies"

1) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1893361675/qid=1114093493/sr=8-4/ref=pd_ka_1/103-7823000-4319830?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
2) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1893361012/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/103-7823000-4319830?v=glance&s=books&n=507846&st=

<><http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1893361012.01._PIdp-schmoo2,TopRight,7,-26_PE32_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg>

A hamische mensch never pokes a stick in somebody's eye or pours salt in somebody's wounds.

A Hamische Mensch never forces a Muslim out of his house during Ramadan.

You asked: "Tolerance is a two-way street. How tolerant are the Haredi of non-observant Jews?" That is not the question!

Bmildred - not moving them during Tish A'Bav is not "kowtowing to the Haredi"

I am a reasonably assimilated, very secular, bacon-wrapped shrimp eating, Reform Jew - I daven at the most Reform Temple in the bluest community of the bluest state of the US - Beyt Tikkun in Berkeley California. And I am insulted by moving them on Tish A'Bav. What next? Moving them on Yom Kippur? Moving them during a shiva? Moving Muslims during Ramadan?

My grand father was a Litvak Left wing Rabbi - and he used to say that the highest complement you can pay anyone at the funeral was to say "He was a Hamische Mensch."

You need some Hamische Menschkeit classes. But you are not alone on the IP forum. Hamische Menschkeit seems to be in short supply here. ;(

[bemildred]

9. You lecture me about being impolite?

About self-restraint?
Bwaaahaahaaa.

[Coastie for Truth]

10. Yup -- sure do.

[bemildred]

11. Welcome to my ignore list, I suggest you do the same. nt

[drdon326]

12. WOW !!

Thats an i/p first.

[bemildred]

13. Hi Don.

No it isn't. It's rare, but not without precedent.
:hi:

[drdon326]

14. First time announced in my recollection.

I only have one person on ignore but I dont remember anyone annoucing it.

[Coastie for Truth]

15. It was the Hamische Mensch thread.

My mommie won't let me hang with guys like Bemildred - and his mommie won't let him hang with guys like me.

[bemildred]

16. Actually it has, I have.

Not in a while to be sure, years I think.
Most posters seem to get the "etiquette", yourself for instance.

[drdon326]

17. Suddenly.....

I seem to miss those ever engaging St.Rachel threads.

[bemildred]

18. Tried and true. Always good for a heated debate. nt

[drdon326]

19. Well....I hope you and Coastie can patch things up.

i like both of you....you crazy kids.

I say....lets bygones be bygones.

[Englander]

25. Anytime, anyplace,anywhere,mate.

You can try to be as wilfully offensive as possible,
& I'll try to be as incredibly rude as possible.

Who knows,I may even teach you how to swear,Brit-style. ;-)

[drdon326]

26. LOL

your memory betrays you...we had that discussion and when I asked you the specifics of the final moments of the terrorist supporter St. Rachel,you refused to answer.

I'm FLATtered you'd want to discuss her again but im not sure shes really worth it.

[Englander]

28. "Just Admit It, DeeDee..."

Neither did you,old chum.

And I guess,to be lectured on the non-answering
of questions by none other than yerself,must be
a compliment,in a post-modernist/ironic stylee.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. I've only got one as well...

and the only way people could work it out is that I don't post in threads they start seeing as how when they're on ignore their threads don't even appear....

btw, thanks for yr contributions to the massive-longarse thread i started in the FA forum. I'm quite chuffed that it's now hundreds of posts long!

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

20. The fact is, the Islamists can and DO impose their will on

millions and millions of others. Indirectly, they are having a great effect on American, Russian and Western foreign policy as well as on the entire Middle East, Central Asia and large chunks of Africa.

By our standards they shouldn't be able to but they are extremely powerful.

Long before they came along, fissions between religious sects were and have always been, one of the driving forces in the Middle East as well as Africa and Central Asia.

In light of that, a few Haredi aren't going to be a big pain, all we have to do is listen to them and cut them some slack on what is, after all, a fairly important religious observation. Sure, they complain about women's sleeves, etc. and women are free to ignore them. In Arabia, however, that kind of response to the Wahibi isn't permitted - a big difference between Israeli society and much of the Islamic world.

I'm sure, like myself, the Israeli leaders would prefer to move forward on the withdrawal. But, if this smooths the path - and simultaneously saves some face for the settlers and the religious people - it's worth doing. And of all the people in the world, the ones most likely to understand and respect it are probably the OTHER denizens of the Middle East - the Moslems and the Christians, and the various other minority sects.

***

Also, on the topic of church and state - our standards don't entirely apply anywhere in the Middle East. Religion and tradition are so closely entertwined with matters of state and even daily matters, like women's hair coverings, that nothing in the West or in our outlook, can compare to it. So we really can't judge either daily behavior, or matters of state, by our standards.

Somebody on another thread, said something like, the people over there aren't playing with full decks. It's actually more, as if, they are playing with a DIFFERENT deck - one which we don't really understand. That lack of understanding causes colossal errors of judgement. Understanding it too well, has enabled emperors and dictators and mullahs to maintain power for centuries.

Israel is probably the most forward looking, along with Turkey, and even they have to deal with ancient traditions. It goes with the territory, so to speak:)

[bemildred]

21. Right, I don't agree with that either.

Your comment about "different decks" is well taken.
I don't want to pick a fight, I like your comments, but I would
point out that the Haredi are not "forward looking" at all, for
instance, and as you say it is not a simple matter and not to be
dealt with in an unsophisticated and provincial manner. Islamic
and Arab cultures are every bit as complex and deep in history as
the Hebrew, and every bit as worthy of respect, despite the flaws
one can easily point to. Fear, hate, and anger are the enemies
of reason, dispassion, and understanding.

[pelsar]

23. actually...the govt isnt ready...

the govt agencies have actually done little to prepare for the pullout..whereas the IDF is ready and has actually started removing equipment.

the settlers have complained about lack of info etc, so the delay is probably a political move so that the various agencies can "get their act together"

[bemildred]

27. Yes, I'd heard that.

Seemed a bit tacky to me.
I'd speculate the the IDF, in general, would be glad to go home, too.

Nevertheless, if talking about what ought to be done, it seems to me
it were better to get on with it, and the fact that that has not been
done doesn't change the fact that it ought to be done.

A rare case where I agree with the settlers.

[Colorado Blue]

24. Agreed; all sides deserve tolerance and respect.

Double agree about reason, dispassion, understanding being the antidote to fear and anger. Education too - it's critical.

As Westerners, we face a challenge from within, from the Christian right. One had hoped aggressive Christianity was a thing of the (dreadful) past, but - they're BACK. This will complicate matters further with the Islamic world and with Jewish people as well as with minority religions (and atheists) here in the US, not to mention with people in Africa and Asia who practice altogether different religions - Buddhists, Hindus, animists.

This, we really didn't need.

Apart from that, as people who believe in rational, democratic societies, we are facing a challenge in these other regions, from people who don't want to be part of our world or part of the globalization process.

I can understand this resistance. I'm sort of a refusnik myself - artist and dancer - having found little joy in the world of mass production and McDonald's. Also, the world of animals, of plants growing, of people working with their hands - there must be a way for the camel and the 747 to exist in their respective spheres, interacting, the one not harming, but complementing, the other.

There is a lot of hope in computers. People in Mongolia, for example, are hooked up to the 'net and can price their wool accordingly and deal Mongolian art and antiques on Ebay. A rug dealer in Kabul knows what Marshall Field's in Chicago is charging, retail, for a dozar-size Baluch. I can deal directly with a textile dealer in Tel Aviv and another in Tehran, or buy a Buddhist artifact from a dealer in Tibet, have a chop carved in Hong Kong, talk directly, via 'net, to a trader in Shanghai.

Left to our own devices, people will find a way. It's the little, daily interactions that will weave a new world together.

As far as the Haredi, no, they're not progressive. People have speculated, over the long years of the Diaspora, that this core, the non-progressive, ultra-Orthodox core, was the steel cable of tradition and remembrance that helped keep the community together. So they're important, as a link to the past.

Otherwise, most people have moderated. I think most Muslims are moderate - certainly the ones I've met have been. The Islamists are different though - they're a new thing, a very political thing. They seem, not only to not want to go forward, or to become Western or globalized, but to actively go BACKWARD.

One wonders, what if the Arab world had had an Ataturk? Is it too late? So much of the resistance to Israel is a cultural thing, has been since the Mufti first saw a woman wearing shorts.

The Turks lost an empire, yet are now a modern, multi-layered and multicultural society that successfully bridges East and West, the ancient world and the new. Yet forward-looking Lebanon was nearly destroyed, the matriarchal cultures of North Africa are being destroyed, Iran has put women back into veils, Hamas has carried out honor killings in highly literate Palestine - what to do?