The Muslim mind is on fire by Youssef M. Ibrahim

[drdon326]

Palestine is on fire, too, with Palestinian armed groups fighting one another - Hamas against Fatah and all against the Palestinian Authority. All have rendered Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas impotent and have diminished the world's respect and sympathy for Palestinian sufferings.

A couple of weeks ago London was on fire as Pakistani and other Muslims with British citizenship blew up tube stations in the name of Islam. Al Qaeda in Europe or one of its franchises proclaimed proudly the killing of 54 and wounding 700 innocent citizens was done to "avenge Islam" and Muslims.

-

Indeed, jihadis have been killing for a decade in the name of Islam. They killed innocent tourists and natives in Morocco and Egypt, in Africa, in Indonesia and in Yemen, all done in the name of Islam by Muslims who say that they are better than all other Muslims. They killed in India, in Thailand and are now talking of killing in Germany and Denmark and so on. There were attacks with bombs that killed scores inside Shia and Sunni mosques, inside churches and inside synagogues in Turkey and Tunisia, with Muslim preachers saying that it is okay to kill Jews and Christians - the so called infidels.

-

In this new cold and hot war, car bombs and suicide bombers here and there will be no match for the arsenal that those Westerners are putting together - an arsenal of laws, intelligence pooling, surveillance by satellites, armies of special forces and indeed, allies inside the Arab world who are tired of having their lives disrupted by demented so-called jihadis or those bearded preachers who, under the guise of preaching, do little to teach and much to ignite the fire, those who know little about Islam and nothing about humanity.


http://www.metimes.com/articles/normal.php?StoryID=20050726-073844-6818r

...............................................................

fascinating op-ed.Must read.

[geek tragedy]

1. The jihadis do more harm to Muslims and Islam than they do to 'infidels'

nt

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

5. To be fair, the US doesn't have nearly the problem that European countries

do with imported radical Islamists. The Atlantic Ocean is a mighty fine neighbor.

[drdon326]

7. No doubt about it.....

but will France receive any condemnation from any UN or ngo for their actions?

What would have happened if Israel ejected 12 imams from israel?

[msongs]

8. depends if france had just cause..BTW love yer loaded language :-)

especially the comment that France is DU's favorite country. where have I heard that kind of rhetoric before? voila et merci.
Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[drdon326]

10. Nothing loaded....

just using a little hyperbole.

[geek tragedy]

9. How many Muslim immigrants are there in Israel? eom

[drdon326]

11. The ones expelled were not immigrants........

as I read it they were citizens.


on edit...some were citizens....some werent

[geek tragedy]

12. None born in France, though. eom

[Jim Sagle]

68. A global gabfest at the least.

:boring:

[Monkie]

3. The meaning of the word Jihad,it means struggle

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/specialreports/jihad/s_84619.html

"Life is worship and jihad" proclaims the nameplate of Al Hayat, an Arabic-language newspaper in London. But "holy war" is hardly what its editors have in mind.

The Arabic word comes from the root jahada, meaning to strive or endeavor to do something. For mainstream Muslims it can mean struggling to lead a virtuous life.

"The fact that a lot of militant organizations choose the word jihad mixes things up," explains Hisham Kassem, who publishes the Cairo Times, an Egyptian magazine. It can refer to "a bloody 'sleeper' cell … or it could simply mean 'my jihad to keep the Cairo Times open.' "

Drew University professor Christopher Taylor calls it "a loaded term with multiple meanings" that depend on the "motives and intentions of the person using it."

Thats just one reason why these kinds of opinion pieces are quite amusing, Jihad means struggle.
Those evil struggler's struggling,
struggle struggle struggle.
Muslims are struggling.

yep,looks silly to me..
maybe this would help diffuse alot of tension.
If we just translated words so that people would know what they mean instead of these news organisations turning innocent words into weapons of fear.

Struggle!

See,that wasnt so scary now was it?

[drdon326]

4. For some strange reason, I suspect that...

Youssef M. Ibrahim is aware of the meaning of jihad.

I know you will agree with me that it is a pleasure that some of the 99%+ peacful muslims are FINALLY speaking out against the vile terrorists in their midst and their revulsion to the acts they commit.

[Monkie]

13. you agree that its a pleasure 99%+ of white men speak out against rape?

I hope you will agree with me that its important for white men to speak out against the vile rapists in their midst and show their revulsion at the acts those white men commit.
I dont think they do enough about it.
and if they dont condemn every rapist act,well maybe they really all support the rape?

oh wait,they dont speak out against the rape of women..
ooooh,
NOBODY expects them too.
Because when one white man rapes a woman..
It doesnt mean all white men are misogynistic rapists.
or does it?

I know 99.99999999999% of all muslims are peaceloving people.
I dont need them to tell me that.
they are my brothers and sisters,my blood is the same as their blood,
i know they are peaceloving.

[drdon326]

14. Wow.....thats too confusing for me......

so, what did you think of the article ? :)

[Monkie]

16. oh the article is sleepinducing, it generalises and is a bit prejudiced

against bearded people..

"demented so-called jihadis or those bearded preachers who, under the guise of preaching"

[drdon326]

18. I'm sorry you didnt like it.

I think the part you referred to...

"those bearded preachers who, under the guise of preaching, do little to teach and much to ignite the fire, those who know little about Islam and nothing about humanity."

is in reference to the imams who preach hatred and instigate violent acts.

[Monkie]

19. i know, but i still dont see what bearded has to do with it?

its the hyperbolic generalisations i really dont like.
I know its exciting to read,but so is science fiction,and we should see it for what it is,a one sided fiction and not really constructive.

[Behind the Aegis]

23. It's just mockery.

[Monkie]

48. the original poster led me to believe it was "fascinating op-ed.Must read"

i am more than comfortable in joining you in a chorus of "It's just mockery" as the more accurate description of this piece.
Not my choice of word but at least its beginning to look somewhat like a more balanced look at the article and i commend you for it.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. the piece is not mockery...just the description of the bearded...

fellow.

[barb162]

15. The analogy is not really on the mark

When there is a terrorist act and people then cheer/celebrate in the streets, there has to be a conclusion society (or some part of it) is approving of it. It does not equate to a rape because after the rape, police are looking for the perp and noone is cheering in the streets. There is no societal approval.

[Monkie]

17. you mean the 5 israeli citizens celebrating and filming 9-11?

because if i took the time and googled a bit i would find that it is not true that palestinians celebrated and that 99% of the arab world condemned the vile attack,including Iran and "the mullah's"

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=75266&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

"5 Israelis detained for `puzzling behavior' after WTC tragedy
By Yossi Melman

Five Israelis who had worked for a moving company based in New Jersey are being held in U.S. prisons for what the Federal Bureau of Investigation has described as "puzzling behavior" following the terror attack on the World Trade Center in New York last Tuesday. The five are expected to be deported sometime soon.
~snip~
The Foreign Ministry said in response that it had been informed by the consulate in New York that the FBI had arrested the five for "puzzling behavior." They are said to have had been caught videotaping the disaster and shouting in what was interpreted as cries of joy and mockery."

The stupid gene is not unique to any people,the actions of a few morons however deplorable should never be used against the perfectly normal and innocent majority.

If we only look at things from our own point of view we miss out on 50% of the problem and 50% of the solution.

[barb162]

20. I mean the coverage supplied by every major news network in the US

showing Palestinians celebrating in the streets.

[Monkie]

21. likely faked or incited as was reported in European media

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrations_of_the_September_11,_2001_attacks

"A closer look at the complete film material which was not broadcast shows that the street around the celebration is quiet. Only in front of the camera there are a few excited children. The woman, who is remembered for her cheering, shortly afterwards moves along quietly. A man in a white T-shirt is conspicuous. He incites the children, and keeps fetching new people. The woman who just left the picture says today that she was offered cake if she celebrates on camera, and that she was appalled when she saw the pictures on television."

this is a interesting piece from the christian science monitor that explains far better than i can..

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.htm
"When contemplating war, beware of babies in incubators"

[barb162]

22. look at the last two paragraphs of the Wikipedia article

"On the day of the attacks, Times Newspapers LTD. (British) reported that 3,000 celebrants were pouring into the streets of Nablus and dozens of people were celebrating in Arab East Jerusalem. <4>

Moderate Palestinians and the Palestinian leadership quickly distanced themselves from any celebrations. The Palestinian Authority recognized the matter as a public-relations nightmare and moved quickly to suppress further reports of public celebrations. Ahmed Abdel Rahman, Arafat's Cabinet secretary, said the Palestinian Authority could not "guarantee the life" of an Associated Press cameraman if footage he filmed of post-9/11 celebrations was broadcast. Rahman's statement prompted a formal protest from the AP bureau chief, Dan Perry. <5> A few days after the September 11th attacks, Yasser Arafat symbolically donated blood for victims of the attacks."
-----------------

There was celebration in the streets and when the leaders realized it was a PR "nightmare" that the people showed how they really felt...they worked to suppress it. But not before every single person watching coverage of 9-11 in the US and other countries saw it multiple times for what it was. Note the part about threatening the AP cameraman.

[Monkie]

25. i have read the article,and yes i know.

I chose a piece that reflected that part of it too for accuracies sake.
I think it was fair of me to point out that one of the most played "palestinians celebrating" video wasnt a very complete picture of the truth as most people would see it.
And that western media is sensationalist and incomplete is what i am trying to get at.And thats the least sinister explanation i can give,as my second example showed there are often other forces and motivations at work in the media you see, and its something one should be aware of.

Why is it so important to focus on a tiny minority and use that to project all kinds of irrational fears onto a peacefull majority.
I think the other post i have made to this thread illustrate perfectly how ridicules that sounds if you turn the argument around.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. What about the most populous Muslim state in the world?

It's just upstairs from where I live. I don't recall seeing widespread celebrations in the streets there, so maybe you could point me to the bit of mainstream US media that made any claim there was? Or is a few examples of a few people now enough to imply that a majority of people celebrated, and the reason they did so is nothing to do with US foreign policy and blowback, but because they're Muslim and the society they live in is kind of sick?

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Speaking as someone from another country...

I saw anything along those lines for what it was - the same inability shared by many Americans to see attacks (whether carried out by terrorists or militaries) on civilians as innocent lives lost, and seeing it as a general type of 'take that!'. In the case of Sept 11, many folk in other countries, and some in the US saw the attack as blowback - a response to decades of destructive US foreign policy...

Violet...

[barb162]

29. Well, I think there will be blowback in response

to the "take that." Some did and still do see it as blowback and for a while I was one of them until I did a lot more studying on it.

US foreign policy is by no means perfect and never was and neither is the internal policy of ME nations supporting extremism.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. Did you perhaps miss the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq?

That would be the 'blowback'...

What sort of studying brought you to the conclusion that Sept 11 wasn't blowback for decades of US foreign policy? Perhaps studying the neo-conservative take on things?

Violet...

[barb162]

32. And what have you been studying

that brings you to the comments and conclusions you have been making? Perhaps the ultra-reactionary crap of the radical Islamic clerics who believe in burqas, stoning for women who get out of line, polygamy, etc? If you want to talk about "conservative" or "neo-conservative" check what they are selling and what you seem to support. They make the neo-conservatives in the US look the ultra-liberals.

[Violet_Crumble]

33. I've been majoring in IR and pol/sci...

Last time I checked, there wasn't a radical Islamic cleric in sight at the ANU...

I'll ask you again, what exactly have you been studying that's led you to the conclusions you've reached?

Violet...

on edit: added a link to the ANU just in case there was any misapprehensions that the acronym ANU stands for Another New Ultra-extremist islamic school...

[barb162]

36. My degrees are in history and business

but that is beside the point here. Funny you should mention there were no radical clerics in sight. Did they already kick them out there or were they never allowed in in the first place.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. I know that's beside the point...

..because I asked you what you'd studied to bring you to the conclusion you've come to...

Uh, on accusations of radical clerics at the uni I study at - maybe you should click on the link and then return and explain yr comment to me? But then again, one of my professors was a *gasp* Muslim, so maybe you've got a point!!

Violet...

[barb162]

42. That's right,

make a phony argument about how I know or don't know who teaches at your school, and about which I care zero in any case since I never brought it up, and then make another bogus response. I don't care if you have zero Muslims for teachers or twenty or fifty. I assure you, I REALLY don't care who your teachers are or what religion they practice or what countries they are from, but feel free to make a ridiculous comment about how I supposedly care. Now one thing I would care about is your taking a basic logic course. You could really benefit in taking basic coursework in deductive logic.

[Violet_Crumble]

44. Excuse me??

You asked me what I'd been studying, and made some ridiculous comment about radical clerics, so I told you that I was studying international relations and polsci. That's kind of the academic field that deals with things like terrorism and foreign policy and all that stuff. If you don't want me to answer yr questions, then I suggest not asking in the first place....

btw, you still haven't said what it was that you studied that changed yr mind about Sept 11 being blowback for decades of destructive US foreign policy. I'd be really interested in knowing...

Violet...

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

53. I don't recall that question being in this thread...

Nor have any idea as to why it has anything to do with you not answering what I thought was a very simple question in this thread. It's very clear by now that you don't want to say what you studied to change yr mind on Sept 11 being blowback for US foreign policy, so even though I'm a bit confused as to why, I'll accept that you don't want to answer questions...

btw, I did respond to yr post in the other thread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x97176#97536

I think it'd be preferable to keep the discussion from that thread over in that thread, and focus on the discussion in this subthread in this thread....

Violet...

[Monkie]

55. i did already answer part of your question in this post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=97507&mesg_id=97568

Some of the people accused of those bombings claim to be islamic.
Some of them even think they are.
If some or all of the people accused did these vile acts they do so against the teachings of Islam and what the overwhelming majority of the world let, alone Islamic people, consider to be against the teachings of Islam.It has been condemned as such by the overwhelming majority of the Islamic world.

I asked you a extremely pointed question in that post i am referring too.
It was directly relevant to your whole argument.
I respectfully ask you again to answer the question in that post.

[pelsar]

61. Monkie...excuse me but who made you "all knowing"...

Some of the people accused of those bombings claim to be islamic.
Some of them even think they are.
If some or all of the people accused did these vile acts they do so against the teachings of Islam ]

so you think you know more about islam that all those immans in saudi arabia who say its ok to blow up western civilians or other infidels? (shouldnt be too hard to find their speaches..or those from western countries for that matter)

you know more about islam that all those wonderful devot muslims who pray 5x a day in the westbank and then send some kid to blow up a bus?

who are you to tell them or anybody else for that matter what the "true islam" is all about?...you sound incredibly like the classic egotistical colonizing "whiteman"...who knows what REALLY is true...and all of those who disagree with those values.... are simply wrong..himmmm sure doesnt sound much like real multiculturailism to me..in fact it sounds like: gasp! conservatism/patriotism

you go explain to the immans in iran, who signed up the suicide club how little they understand about islam.....

[Monkie]

78. except for a few "demon scapegoat" imam's they keep parading

whenever they need to scare us into giving up a few more freedoms our forefathers fought so hard for i dont see that many "mad mullah's"

I am more likely to die crossing the road than die from a suicide bomb.
And anyone living in a country where that isnt the case should start looking at why that is so?
and anyone not living in a country where you are more likely to die from a islamic suicide bomber than crossing the road would do well to spend less of their time worrying about evil muslims under their bed and more time bombing the car manufacturers.

on edit,replied to the wrong post :P

[Monkie]

79. i'm not all knowing,i couldnt even reply to the right post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=97507&mesg_id=97648

was meant to reply to you

unless you have good figures your anecdotal account of the problem still fits into my view of "a few bad apples" best left to the criminal justice system

[pelsar]

80. bad apples?..

Some of the people accused of those bombings claim to be islamic.
Some of them even think they are.
If some or all of the people accused did these vile acts they do so against the teachings of Islam

me? i have no idea...but a lot of these imans can quote the proper verses in the koran and the Hadith, some of which are quite specific about what to do about the infidel.....somehow i doubt you can.


how do YOU KNOW...that those terrorist acts are against the teachings of islam?....for I know....at least from what i understand of what i see in Iran/Saudi Arabia/ ex Taliban...its not true

are those countries "bad apples".....or are they what its about?....just because you want to believe that executing a kid for "haveing a big mouth"-iran...is "evil" ...well the judge obviously didnt think so....doesnt make it so.

what your doing is putting your western based civil rights values on a different culture.....
which is extremely ethnocentric...do you believe that your western values are greater and more superior than traditional islam...as we see in iran (where they have the "suicide club?")

thats the impression I get...since you KNOW that the islam of iran/saudi arabia/pakistan/ taliban is not the "TRUE islam"...

like i asked....how do you know better than the imans of iran what true islam is?

and just for the record....i believe western values of civil rights etc are far superior to islams (or any religious theocracy) governing values...I dont have to "play' about bad apples....or be PC about it...i dont give a shit what the "true islam" is about or isnt about....govts like iran/saudi arabia/pakistan have no right to exist---period.

[Violet_Crumble]

92. The Qur'an and infidels...

I figure if I as an atheist could read through the Yusuf Ali translation of the Qur'an and suss out pretty early on that infidels were the pagans of the time that Muhammed unified the Arab tribes against, and that Christians and Jews were 'People of the Book', who were treated very differently to the pagans, then I wonder why those imans don't notice that very obvious point. My guess is that they're closely related to the Christian whackadoodles who use the bible to justify whatever sick stance they decide to take on things...

What is the 'true Islam'? I suspect it's contained in the Qur'an, and in the life of the prophet Muhammed. Nowhere there will you find anything that would lead to the conclusion that it's acceptable to commit terrorist acts against innocent people, nor will you find anything that would lead to women in Saudi Arabia not being allowed to drive...

btw, having travelled with my highlighter through both the bible and the qur'an marking all the bloodthirsty bits, the bible wins hands down on the cruel and bloodthirsty side of things...

Violet...

[pelsar]

93. there is no TRUE version.....

its all in the commentary and who chooses what to mean what....classic example..after the hebron agreement it rained:

the jews in hebron clamed god was crying.. the arabs claimed the rain was his blessing....me?...i put on raincoat.

these religious dudes find meaning in anything and everything...and they all ask their local rabbi/imman/witchdoctor/priest for the latest....

those wonderful religous guys who pray to mecca 5x a day and then send out a suicide bomber.....they're religious and believe with all their heart in what they are doing..and they have an imman somewhere blessing them...if it wasnt for that imman they would be no more than a bunch of psycopathic criminals (same to for the kach bunch and the KKK).

the problem is not so much the terrorists its the guys in the middle..the ones who arent but the ones who keep quiet about it..why?..cause the imman/priest/rabbi told them that these guys are doing gods work..and so the middle dudes get swept up in to it.

it does matter that you havent found in the quaran nothing about terrorisim or the way they treat their women....bluntly?...you dont know anything about islam.....that would be what the learned immans in iran and saudi arabia would tell you. If they claim that women cant drive, that blowing up infidels is good because of their learned interpertation ....who are you, who has not studied the quran for your whole life to tell them what it means?

no violet...you dont know the koran....its all a matter of the interperation...and the way you interpret it is not the way so many others do....and that includes at least two countries.

btw if you really want to get an earful...there is a website made up of ex muslims...they'll really give you an earful about the islam...these are people who were brought up/ with it, very knowledgeble about its various interpertations.....

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/

try arging with them about islam and they'll run rings around you.....and yes they're pissed about it. I've never known ex christians or jews to have so much "disgust" for the religion that they were born into

[Violet_Crumble]

94. Does that apply to every religion or just Islam?

Are Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson the 'true Christianity'?

I'm aware that the radical clerics would shoot off that 'you know nothing about Islam!' excuse. The problem is that they'd also shoot it off at the many who have studied the Qur'an and who are devout Muslims, and who put up a much more convincing argument that the Qur'an does not advocate or endorse terrorism or abuse of women...

That website you linked to. Did you take a good look around it before you posted the link? Because it's got some pretty vile poison on it, pelsar...

The reason I fight Islam is because it is a doctrine of hate. I am against Islam for the same reason I am against Nazism.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/faq/10.htm

and

I express my opinion. I show no intolerance towards anyone.
<snip>
Islam is a religion of hate. I fight it because of that. I am not fighting against Muslims. Most of my loved ones and relatives are Muslims. I fight against the doctrine of hate that has made them, you and all of us victims and victimizers for the last 1400 years.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/faq/19.htm

By the time I'd read that crap, the site made me feel too dirty to waste my time reading more hate in a forum where, what is for all we know, anonymous internet haters from somewhere like LGF pretend they're ex-Muslims....

There's a huge difference between having a healthy contempt for all religion, and singling only one out and spewing hate against it. While the former is imo a pretty wise stance to take on religion, the latter is fueled by nothing more than bigotry and hatred...



Violet...

[pelsar]

95. all religions....

as far as that site goes...i know it has some vile stuff on it...but then so does DU...I try to ignore the real shit.... (you have to go down to the subjects about islam for the real discussions not the "current news" stuff), but then they get pretty heavy into the koran and its commentary.)

but i was impressed with some of the posters there who have real knowledge of islam (i was originally looking for for "ex muslims for a better understanding of the religion....)

as far as the extremes in religion..they all have got them..and religion at best is a constantly changing to fit the new norms.... christians no longer burn witches at the stake...though at one time that expressed the "TRUE RELIGION".

the moderates of yesterday in religion are the zealots of today..who am I to know the difference? In fact one of the major contentions of those in extreme judiaism is the need to go back to its roots...i.e. kings and such. These guys are as full of it as any jihadnikim.

I dont single our islam as having anything special over judiaism, christianity, satanic worship, communism etc....they're all belief systems and can have good and bad based on a cult system.... They all require "high priest" to conduct their business and to give insperation.

Once upon a time judiasim was probably pulling out peoples toe nails, christianity had its bloodletting....all sanctioned by its high priests...now its islams turn. No one can say "what the true version is, since its constantly in motion...what we do hear however are the "high priests" giving their blessing for chopping off heads of the infidels and blowing up people in the tube.....now i suspect you agree, but those values dont coincide with standard western civil right values.... and I really dont care what those immans/jimans/gimas or shitheads by any other name are called, whatever it is, it is simply wrong.

at the sametime we would be foolish to ignore the suicide club in iran, saudi arabias call for chopping off heads of infidels and their arresting of christians for praying...these are all based on some version of islam...it is islam that is inspiring them, giving them the right to do those things..... We cant say they are extremists and in the minority since we now have two full countries that believe in that system (maybe a third)....One of Nigerias states now has shari law....so who is to say that they are "extremists?....could be that they are becoming the main stream, as many muslims believe it should....I sure as hell dont know, but neither is ignoring the problem a wise idea either.

I dont hate muslim immans any more than I do the christians evangelicals i watch on MiddleEast TV (lebanon)...whom I find them somewhat amusing....but then I dont fear that one of their listeners will be inspired to pack a bomb and blow up some resturant...we do have a problem....

[Violet_Crumble]

96. You might be interested in reading this...

Muslims and the West After September 11

That's the sort of critique that I find rational and balanced. He's not acting as though the problems in the Muslim world came to be and exist in a vacuum or anything like that...

Would the Sharia Laws in place in that Nigerian state be the sort of one that involves women being stoned to death for 'adultery', which seems to include women who are victims of rape, etc? If it is that extremely harsh interpretation of Sharia, I don't for a second believe that many Muslims believe that's the way it should be. As in Afghanistan, fundamentalists gain power and the majority of people don't have any choice in what law comes into being or how it's enforced. I think it's also important to keep in mind that there are countries like Turkey* and Indonesia with very large Muslim populations that have strong secular laws. If the fundamentalist interpretation of Sharia was the system of choice for mainstream Muslims, those countries wouldn't be living with secular laws now. I think there's several other countries with large Muslim populations in the same situation as those two, but I can't think of which ones they are right now...

Another thing that might be contributing to how things are with Islam nowadays is that the role of the 'high priest' - the Caliphate, was abolished by Ataturk, and there is no top gun pope-like guy anymore who says how things are, and as a result of that and the fact that many Muslim areas fell under foreign control and nationalism and stuff, nowadays there's widely varying interpretations of Islam amongst Muslims...

* Turkey's so damn secular it hurts...

Violet...

[pelsar]

97. the article...

strikes as very well balanced.....(and funny)

A more public example: one of two Pakistani nuclear engineers recently arrested on suspicion of passing nuclear secrets to the Taliban had earlier proposed to solve Pakistan's energy problems by harnessing the power of genies....

his ending..the hope for secular humanism is a goal, but i even wonder if human nature can give up its need for self identity/self importance....but thats for the year 3033

back to 2005:

ok so we got two crazy extreme states: saudi arabia and iran...and two secular oriented states: turkey and indonesia (and one sicko ex pm)....and whole bunches in limbo.

your going on the assumption that most people prefer democracy, civil rights etc as opposed to a fundamentalist govt (i.e. taliban).........and your telling me that the people of iran/saudi arabia would prefer their fundamentalist leaders go away and i suspect be replaced with some kind of democractic govt.....

as much as to me its a "no brainer"....i have to wonder. Democracy/ civil rights may very well take a back seat to a muslim oriented govt....how far they go with shari law would be up to each country...but a theocracy is a theorcracy, in my mind that is something like a "benevolent occupation"..its still evil. You can see it in israel the constant struggle between religion and the secular society.....anyway you look at its based in discrimination, either via the law or via unwritten rules....

i would say an interesting experiment is going on with the PA....they are probably the most educated of the arab/islamic societies with real contact with israels democracy.....which way they go shall prove interesting. some cities have chosen hamas, obviously its not just because of religion, but it does show they are willing to give up some freedoms (music festivals, water fountains) for other benefits..meaning the values of democracy are not the only values at play within the arab/muslim society (as opposed to turkey..of which i know very little about)

[Monkie]

35. while it is not my place to make educational suggestions

this little statement has to be the most blatant bit of historical revisionism i have seen in quite a while,and its not for lack of wading through that poisonous muck believe me.

"US foreign policy is by no means perfect and never was and neither is the internal policy of ME nations supporting extremism."

For one thing,US foreign policy IS the policy of ME nations.
and then there is this.

Millions of people killed,democratically elected governments overthrow,hundreds yes hundreds of despotic regimes supported, millions upon millions of families displaced,torn apart..
dismissed in a sentence..
and your mind boggles at a few people that cheer at couple of buildings hit by planes?
You really dont understand that somewhere on this planet there are a few irrational people who hate ALL of you for it, just like some hate all muslims because of the actions of a few?
I meet people that are surprised America is not one big piece of fused glass..
but not many that are surprised that there are actually some people on this planet that hate America for its bloodsoaked foreign policy and the American's that just dont seem to care...

I know its not comfortable to hear this but its at least as true and alot more relevant to this discussion than a few celebrating palestinians.

[barb162]

38. Several major flaws here

"US foreign policy IS the policy of ME nations"
Simply and totally not true.

As to your other comments, if you want to talk about historical revisionism, your statements boggle the mind. Are you actually suggesting we run Syria, Iran, Libya, etc. Because if you are, it is simply laughable at best, "poisonous muck" at worst, in your own words.

Same applies to the other comments, such as millions killed, etc.

I notice you mention nothing about the "internal policy of ME nations supporting extremism." Again, here is a rant against the US, but utter silence about a factual comment regarding nations in the Mideast, that they have been supporting extremism.

[Monkie]

41. i am glad you bring up Syria Iran Libya

They are the only 3 regimes in the ME that resists US foreign policy.
But they are a small part of the ME.
So its a bit disingenuous to use those as a example to counter my statement.
I have already tried to show some facts that support my assertions.
I dont mind continuing to supply you with those uncomfortable facts if you would at least indicate that you have in some way read them and either accept them or counter them with some facts of your own backed by respectable links.
I would really like to take the time to try to unravel each inaccuracy as i believe facts illuminate,but the shear volume of these per post makes this near impossible.

Things are nowhere near the black&white picture you present and some of it closer to the reverse.
For example in Kuwait,heavily supported by the USA, women got the right to vote this year,thats 42 years AFTER women finally got that right in Iran.If you remember this is when a large proportion of african-americans and therefore by definition many women in America were finding it impossible to vote,or go to the same school as people with less skin pigment,or use the same toilet.

http://www.usdoj.gov/kidspage/crt/voting.htm

"The Voting Rights Act of 1965 prohibits discrimination in voting practices or procedures because of race and color. In 1957 and 1960, Congress had enacted voting rights laws that took small steps toward increasing minority voting participation for all Americans. The 1965 Act, however, made huge strides towards making voting rights a reality"

Also remember that it was the CIA that overthrew the government of Iran in the first place.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html

"The Central Intelligence Agency's secret history of its covert operation to overthrow Iran's government in 1953 offers an inside look at how the agency stumbled into success, despite a series of mishaps that derailed its original plans."

[barb162]

45. Monkie,

okay, look, you made the statement the US killed millions. Were you referencing World War 2 because, you know, the US didn't start that.

What would you say about the Iraq constitution right now and the fact that it really looks like Sharia will be brought in as the main basis for their law. The US would not want that and suggested otherwise. If we were truly controlling things there, Sharia wouldn't be in that constitution. However, it allowed the writers to do what they wanted because the object was for them to run their own country. By the way, the faster the US gets out of there, the better I will like it, but that's beside the point right now. You know what's going to happen? The radical clerics there will be crapping all over the women of Iraq. They will end up with next to no rights, beatings, etc. Somebody explain to me why the hell the radical clerics preaching intolerance, subjugation of women, etc., in the Mideast are so powerful, why some Iraqis actually voted for these radicals and then they are all going to wind up very suppressed. Then who will they blame? You know what? The voting was by the Iraqis...no American soldiers were putting in extra votes. The Iraqis, like the Iranians, are putting in Sharia, then mark my words , they will cripe about oppression and then blame which country. Hey, we aren't putting the ballots in their hands and telling them where to put the x for their candidates. When I talk about inherent problems in the Mideast, this would be an example. They had Saddam and couldn't stand him. When they have the opportunity to do it their own way in the election,voting, etc., guess what, they are going to like it even less. They will all be oppressed by the sharia religious laws, the extremism that they themselves are putting in and writing as we speak (write).

[Monkie]

58. more than 3 million vietnamese died,or dont we count those?

thats just one example and the obvious and biggest one.
3 million dead,how many 9-11's is that?
15 million people displaced.
can you even begin to imagine this?
You cant just skip over 3 million dead because of an American invasion of a country it had no business being in.
The chemical weapons used against innocent civilians dropped from up high by brave hero's bringing democracy and freedom.

http://www.commondreams.org/views/041700-106.htm

"There is no basis even to suggest that the fallout from the war affected the United States and Vietnam similarly. While the United States suffered serious losses -- more than 58,000 of its military killed and billions of dollars spent -- Vietnam's losses were staggering. More than 3 million Vietnamese died during the American war, with at least that many wounded. More than 15 million Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians became refugees. American weapons -- especially the 6.5 million tons of bombs dropped on Indochina -- destroyed more than 10,000 hamlets and 25 million acres of forest in South Vietnam (the land of the U.S. ally in the war); additionally the United States dropped more than 11.2 million gallons of Agent Orange and 400,000 tons of napalm on South Vietnam, a nation roughly the size of New Mexico or Arizona.

Since the end of the war, thousands of Vietnamese continued to be killed every year from contact with unexploded bombs from the war, and their environment continues to feel the effects of dioxin and other herbicides. There is nothing ``mutual'' about such destruction; ``their scars'' run much deeper than ``ours.''

and i still have these to go:

* Nicaragua
* Guatemala
* El Salvador
* Chile
* Venezuela
* Brazil
* Bolivia

and these are just some of the military interventions..

[bemildred]

59. Here:

http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/interventions.htm

It is easy to find other lists, if one is interested.
This one is not US specific, but it's one of my faves:

http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable.htm

[barb162]

76. That second list is pretty good

and there were thing there I was forgetting. Looks like China takes the 20th century cake (35 million). I always take the numbers with skepticism because who was counting in any of these many wars, cleansings, etc. And Africa, no words....

[bemildred]

91. Numbers do vary a good bit.

But China and Mao do seem to get the gold.
With Stalin a competitive second place.
In a very competitive field.
For the 20th Century, only of course.

But the larger point in my mind is that humans are
vicious buggers on the whole, and we would all be
well served to exercise humility and restraint.

Edit: I should probably mention the Japanese effort in
Manchuria, which was stunningly effective at reducing
the population there. From that point, the list grows
like kudzu on a dead tree, and most of the ex-colonial
powers play a prominent place in the activities.

[barb162]

75. reply

Vietnam: about a million or a million and a half Vietnamese died, but no one really knows how many.

I notice you evaded the questions and comments I had on the Islamic radicals writing in Sharia in the Iraq constitution and how events are playing out there.

[Lithos]

77. barb162

Iraq is an interesting experiment that has gone awfully wrong for many reasons. However, Islam is not the main reason.

First, it is not Islam which has subjugated women. It is men and women who are doing it. Islam is nothing more than a set of ideas, it is not tangible and cannot force anyone to do anything. This is much like Bush's war on Terrorism - it is a war on an idea which of course is ludicrous.

So while there are "laws" in Islam's holy texts, there are very similar "laws" in Christian and Judeo holy texts. And similarly, there are both very progressive and other very retrogressive passages. The traditions and basis are so very close as to be almost indistinguishable.

Today you see people quoting the Bible as their basis to limit women's reproductive freedoms. Or the Irish and the (relatively modern) Magdalene laundries to control and punish women. (The man got off, but the woman who was usually the victim was made to suffer).

What about Shas' submission of several bills in the Knesset to prohibit Women from praying at the Western Wall or the verbal and physical attacks by ultra-orthodox Jews against women attempting to pray at the wall? Or the attacks by the haredi for violating the "laws of Modesty" (shades of the Burka) with the basis of these claims being that such behavior (on the part of the women) weakens the nation by turning God against them.

Does this make Christianity or Judaism better or worse than Islam? No. Any such claims by any apologist are going to be based on biased cultural and religious heuristics.

People and cultures who are undergoing large periods of stress due to change, be it from external threats, or internal disruption from economic hardship, technological change (the Industrial Revolution and Toffler's Third Wave), or other, have shown a great tendency to become backward looking in their religion. Mythos overcomes logos.

Read Karen Armstrong's works on this subject; A History of God is a good start.

The West saw very similar problems the Middle East is seeing today during the start of the Renaissance (witness the Protestant Reformation), the Industrial Revoluion and today's Information Revolution. Today's Western equivalents include with the rise of the extreme Evangelical movement, the rise of cults such as Opus Dei.

Islam is not immune to it as well with people being attracted to Wahabbism as a way to reassert some 'mythological' value. The stress is just greater considering the rapid movement thru the Industrial and Information ages. It is no wonder some of the greatest recruiting grounds are those where the greatest stresses are occuring.

Then again, the US religious right is also finding the greatest recruiting grounds in the areas where the greatest stresses have occured over the past 50 years - namely the civil rights of Gays, Minorities and Women. Their strongest reaction has been either the promotion of separate (private) educational facilities (madrassas) where mythos trumps logos or the censoring of curriculae (Evolution & Sex. Ed) contrary to their mythos.

Second, as for Iraq, the rise in such religious beliefs in post-conquest Iraq was almost inevitable, especially given the lack of planning by this Administration to provide an immediate and moderate solution as well as all of the post-war bumbling. The longer the US is causing stress, the greater the power of reactionary forces.

L-

[pelsar]

24. sorry monkie.....

it was all over the news here.....from all of our outlets...arab israeli stringers in the westbank and gaza......

palestenains in lebanon too for that matter..... even if you dont like what you see, you should still keep your eyes open and see it....

[barb162]

26. a question

First, I am glad you saw that too. When I saw those sickass people shooting off their machine guns in the air, the women doing that high-pitched whatever it was, everybody celebrating, well I am too inarticulate to tell you what I think. I bet most people in the world saw it multiple times, at least those who have TVs. The crap about the woman being offered a piece of cake to perform...uh, right, yeah, sure. I believe that as much as I believe Arafat's donating blood a few days later was a genuine gesture. It was genuine as far as he realized he had a super bad PR mess to handle.

Yes we saw multiple versions of the same thing in the Moslem world, different celebrations in different cities.

Contrast that with what all of the people in nthe US also saw several times on TV: right away the Israelis offered the trained teams of people and dogs who find victims under rubble. I think most Americans, like me, thank the Israelis deeply for this very kind gesture when we were dealing with that horrible day.

What is a stringer

[Monkie]

31. i know i saw it too,but seeing it doesnt make it all of it,or relevant

i know a fact when i see one.I dont dispute the fact that some palestinians celebrated.
I dispute onesided facts presented as resembling anything near truth.
There are pictures and video's,held back by the American government at this very moment,that depict American soldiers raping children to get confessions from their parents.
Iraq is a nuclear wasteland
At least 35,000 innocent iraqi civilians are dead.
no WMD.
the latest is that the newly trained iraqi police are drilling holes in the clerics and others before they execute them.
yes drilling holes in their elbows and kneecaps in the name of freedom and democracy.
Yet all we hear is a daily litany of "evil arab,evil muslim" in the press and little self-examination.
Can you imagine what this must be like??
for a muslim or arab?
for any human being for that matter.
my eyes are open,i wish i could shut them...

anyways,i'm not meant to be having this discussion with you because you certainly dont have a completely one sided view of the situation,far from it.

[barb162]

39. Relevance?

You again present a one-sided litany, respond to nothing regarding ME sponsored terrorism and accuse others of being one-sided. I would like to point out that the car and suicide bombers so active in Iraq right now are NOT American, but rather Islamic terrorists. Thousands of Iraqi Moslems are being killed by other Moslems. Well I do agree with one thing and is we should not be writing to each other.

[Monkie]

43. i think you mistook my post to pelsar as a reply to you

and if you want me to respond to ME sponsored terrorism show me some facts please.
Show me one instance where a court of law has been presented with evidence that the world can see that the ME sponsored terrorism, and that these are not governments that are at the very least under constant intense pressure to conform to the USA's wishes and at worst little more than puppet states.
I have condemned all attacks on civilians on this board before.
I dont have to condemn the obvious in every post i make.

"I would like to point out that the car and suicide bombers so active in Iraq right now are NOT American, but rather Islamic terrorists."

I havent seen a single account of a suicide bomber in Iraq muslim or otherwise that predates the Illegal American invasion of a sovereign country based on lies.
People tend to get a little bit angry when you totally destroy their country?
The rules dont allow me to post pictures here or i would post the pictures of those dead Iraqi babies, but i'll post links and if you are brave enough to have a look at what is being done in your name with your taxpayers dollars, and you can then come back and look me in the eye and tell me that if that was your child you would NOT strap some homemade explosives to your body and take it to the people that just did this to your baby,that most precious life,your blood, then ok,but otherwise i have very little patience for the argument that they do this just because they are "Islamic terrorists" because i have seen these photo's before and many others.

many dead iraqi babies among other HORRORS in your name:
http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqwarpix.html
just a few dead babies from fallujah:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6010.htm
this is what depleted uranium does to babies (well it kills em too):
http://www.web-light.nl/VISIE/extremedeformities.html
16 pages of click-able dead iraqi thumbnails (many children)
http://www.einswine.com/atrocities/iraq/

This is just a tiny selection of what there is on the internet,which is a tiny fraction of reality,of which we see NOTHING on our tv's

[Violet_Crumble]

47. US foreign policy in the Middle East...

Here seems as good a place as any to plonk this post. As someone who used to use a clumsy puppy having lots of accidents analogy when looking at US foreign policy, it wasn't long after arriving at DU that I started to realise the US wasn't so much of a clumsy puppy, but a giant suffering from an antisocial personality disorder. The problem with US foreign policy in that particular region is that while the US promotes a message of democracy and freedom to its domestic audience, the reality is that US foreign policy is based on the self-interests (oil) of the US, and when those self-interests (oil)collide with the human rights of citizens of the Middle East, then the human rights lose out bigtime. That's what happened in Iran in the 1950's, and also with the US support of the Shah of Iran, despite the human rights abuses happening under his regime. While the US obviously didn't install every corrupt regime in the Middle East, in many cases it has supported those regimes or refused to speak out against them. For the US, what matters most is an uninteruppted supply of oil, and things like nationalism and public ownership of oil was to be stamped out, as under a brutal and corrupt regime that oil supply remains uninterrupted, but if the citizens were to gain control and demand their cut of the resources coming from their state, then that couldn't be tolerated..

Violet..

[Monkie]

50. violet!

"a clumsy puppy having lots of accidents analogy" for a moment there i took this personally! :)

[Violet_Crumble]

54. LOL...

n/t

[newyorican]

46. He is not Muslim...

geez. Someone's got it bad.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. I just noticed that post...

Thanks for pointing that one out!

[not systems]

52. Yea, but his name is funny kinda "islamic". n/t

[barb162]

6. 3 comments

1 I wonder how the infighting in Palestine will play out over the next few months and years. (Did the PA security chief get released)

2 The extremists end up killing so many fellow Moslems. That resort bombing in Egypt killed mostly Egyptians. Same with the Iraq bombings

3 "...demented so-called jihadis"
I think they are not demented...they know exactly what they are doing and they don't care if they are killing Moslems or Christians or whoever else happens to be going about their daily business or who gets in their way. The statements they are making clearly take precedence over the number of cold-blooded killings and concern for human life. They are pathological but not demented.
-----
(good article, thanks)

[newyorican]

40. Yousef Ibrahim is not a muslim..

He's an Egyptian born American Christian.

[bemildred]

57. Not the brightest bulb in the box:

One example:

"let us not forget that in September 2001, long before Iraq, Osama Bin Laden proudly announced that he ordered the killing of some 3,000 in the United States, in the name of avenging Islam"

This is false. OBL denied it then. He has said since (if you believe the postings) that he thought of the idea way back in 1982, but in 2001 he denied having anything to do with it.

He says "Indeed, jihadis have been killing for a decade in the name of Islam", which is also false, and leaves out Afghanistan, an omission that can only be explained in this context as stupidity or discomfort. Why should this bozo ignore the fact that "jihadi" violence goes back much further?

And he appears to equate the USSR with Islam.

But why go on?

[Englander]

60. Is this a Moonie site?

I think it is;

"News World Communications

News World Communications, a global media company, acquired United Press International in May 2000. News World’s flagship newspaper, The Washington Times, was founded in 1982 and has gained a reputation for hard-hitting investigative reporting and thorough coverage of politics and policy. In addition, News World publishes newspapers and magazines in more than 20 countries and in four languages.

Other News World properties include:

o Washington Times
o The Washington Times National Weekly
o The World & I
o Middle East Times
o Tiempos del Mundo
o Ultimas Noticias
o The World Peace Herald
o Segye Ilbo
o Segye Times USA
o Sekai Nippo
o Chongyohak Shinmun
o Washington Golf Monthly
o Philadelphia Golf Monthly "


http://about.upi.com/company/news_world

[drdon326]

62. I take it then you agree with Youssef M. Ibrahim....good.

Quite frankly I dont know and dont care who owns the site.

But , in part , I really thought you , of all people , would have felt a certain understanding of the authors pov.

A couple of weeks ago London was on fire as Pakistani and other Muslims with British citizenship blew up tube stations in the name of Islam. Al Qaeda in Europe or one of its franchises proclaimed proudly the killing of 54 and wounding 700 innocent citizens was done to "avenge Islam" and Muslims.


I have asked you previously of your impressions of the London attacks and its aftermath and either you didnt see it or didnt want to respond and that ok.



And, IN CONCLUSION (LOL) ,I know exactly what you are saying...... I never trusted the Philadelphia Golf Monthlys agenda ever.

[pelsar]

63. Mr. Englander....

has been very quiet about the resistant fighters and the subsequent planned excecution in London of an innocent unarmed foreigner...as well as the warning by the police that there may be more such executions....

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drdon326]

67. Yes.........

I was wondering about those RESISTANCE FIGHTERS.


This AM.....as luck would have it.....SEVEN MORE fighters were arrested.

[Violet_Crumble]

72. Where has Englander ever called them resistance fighters??

You and pelsar are the only folk doing that...

Violet...

[newyorican]

73. Obvious baiting...

extremely bad form.

Now subtle baiting on the other hand....

[Englander]

87. Heh - "subtle" it isn't. n/t

[pelsar]

81. I'm just playing...

"goating englander" if you will....

rats! newyorican...you figured it out!

[newyorican]

82. that would be "goading"

not goating...

[pelsar]

84. got it....

i live in the middle east...we "like our goats"....

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

85. curious....

basically the IDF got "lambasted" by Englander for shooting the two brits...even before any evidence was in, he declared the IDF guilty of targeting journalists and others.

well....wondering is he consistent?....is "misidentification" not possible in the IDF? What is his personal reaction to what the British Security forces did?...if he believes that was a misidentification.....broad daylight, following the guy etc....then why cant the same be true for the IDF.

it seem reasonable to hear what he has to say...does he have a double standard?....or can he loud and clear declare that yes it quite possible that the IDF sniper misidentified the brit journalist....and though later the soldier admitted to it. also its quite possible that IDF solider could have misidentified the ISM brit as well.

he did reply once by directing me to the general thread...but i'm not interested in what people with whom i've never had a discourse had to say....I'm interested in how he sees it.

[Englander]

86. No.

That's no,as in you're not correct that's no
evidence of the IDF deliberately shooting at journalists
British or otherwise.There's plenty of evidence that
on occassions,the IDF has shot at whoever they want to,
using live ammo.

That's no,as in I'm not inconsistent in my position on
condemning security forces when they fubar. I get the impression
that you think that I would defend the SO19 shooters in this
instance,that impression is incorrect. The Brazilian killed/
murdered/executed {delete as applicable} by the British
SO19 police/SAS death squad {delete as applicable} was
completely innocent.

Anything's possible,pelsar,but neither of the cases you mention
in yer final comments could be classified as accidents;
or rather,all of the evidence I've seen leads to the conclusion
that the IDF soldiers were fully aware of who they were
shooting at.

That's all I'm interested in,really. Finding out the evidence,
what actually,or most probably happened,& then attempting
to make informed comments on that evidence.

[pelsar]

88. thanks englander....

condemning security forces when they fubar...why then do you think the brit security services screwed up?.....

though i actually believe they screwed up since I cant believe that they would kill someone that they didnt think they had a bomb (they're screw up was in getting in the situation in the first place)...however...from a different point of view...it is clear that they didnt fubar..they had plenty of time to ID the guy....

seems to me your contention of the "evidence" in the Brit journalist killed in gaza" was that at night he had a light and white flag...or am i missing something? I would say following a guy in broad daylight can give one a far stronger chance to id the guy.....so if that is your "evidence" i would clearly state you have a strange standard

let me sum up what I think your contention is:
its easier to ID someone in a combat zone, at night, through night vision goggles (this would be standard) while they have a torch and white flag..than during daylight while following someone going from home. to bus to subway.....

is that it? or is there evidence that I dont know about?

[Englander]

89. Firstly,congrats for trying to conflate the two incidents.

The two incidents that don't really have any common
theme,are not really comparable,& don't really have any
common factors.Nice try,but I'm not buying it.

I don't really want to comment on the James Miller
incident again,I've hopefully made my position clear
in previous comments,& I really do not want to go over
this again. I will post a link* but I'm not going to
add anything,that could change in the future,but I'm
not going to write anything further today. Sorry.

Onto the killing at Stockwell Tube station (that's TUBE
*not* subway:)).Most of this is speculation,but I get
the feeling that this was a monumental fubar,that something
went horribly wrong in the lines of communication between
the "Gold Commander"** & the armed officers,& whoever was
following Jean Charles de Menezes.

I don't know why de Menezes was identified as a "ticking-bomb",
it seems pretty clear that he was not a threat,& I can't see
how this case went so horribly wrong. He was followed from his
flat,to a bus-stop,onto a bus to Stockwell,he was wearing a
denim-jeans jacket,he used his season ticket on the turnstiles,
& the armed,non-uniformed men he was running away from did not
(apparently) make clear that they were police,or that he was under
arrest.

____________________

*

"My friend James

Cameraman James Miller, who was shot dead by Israeli soldiers last week, was a great war reporter. But he was not a gung-ho adrenaline junkie says Cassian Harrison who worked and drank beer with him

Tuesday May 6, 2003
The Guardian

Late on Friday night, I received a phone call: Reuters was reporting that a man had been shot dead in Rafah, on the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt. That the man was a cameraman and director called James Miller.

The sense of shock and fury with which I put the phone down has still not faded: James was a man with whom I spent some of the most extraordinary times of my life, a man of talent, intelligence and integrity. A man I was plotting to go down the pub with in a few weeks' time.

Almost three years ago, I began to research a documentary project on Taliban Afghanistan. That project would become Beneath the Veil, an exposé of the hidden life of the Taliban's fundamentalist state with deeply personal reporting from Saira Shah.

But in those early days I had not yet chosen the reporter. All I knew was who I wanted to shoot the film - a cameraman called James Miller. James had a reputation as one of Britain's finest camera operators in difficult and dangerous circumstances. He was a veteran of practically every war zone of the 90s; Sierra Leone, Kosovo, Bosnia, Chechnya.

But when I met him, I was confronted not with some grizzled war reporter with a bad case of adrenaline addiction, but a young man of whip-like focus, tempered by a fine line in irony and a broad grin that would crack across his face at the slightest provocation.

>snip

· Cassian Harrison was the producer and director of Beneath the Veil.

More at;
Guardian Unlimited

_______________________________

**

"July 31,2005

>snip

One witness had de Menezes as an Asian with a beard and wires coming out of his torso. The truth is more mundane. De Menezes, an electrician, was travelling to north London to fix a fire alarm.

He was not wearing what witnesses called a “black bomber jacket”, but a denim jacket. It was about 17C and his clothing would not have been out of the ordinary.

He did not vault a ticket barrier, as claimed. He used a travelcard to pass through the station in the normal way. His family believes that he may have started to run simply because he heard the train pulling in — something Londoners do every day. Indeed, a train was at the platform when he got there.

Police clearly believed that de Menezes might have been a suicide bomber, even though he was not carrying a rucksack. This raises a key question: why was de Menezes allowed to board a bus in Tulse Hill and travel to Stockwell, if officers thought that his body might be rigged with explosives? It also raises questions about the new shoot-to-kill protocol. The protocol — which is specific to individual targets — can be put into force only when police have reason to believe that a suspect may be carrying a bomb. The order can be issued only by a “gold commander” at Scotland Yard.

The order, once given, clears officers to shoot the suspect in the head if they believe that he is about to activate the bomb. The idea is to give the individual no time to react. Police do not have to shout a warning before they act: to do so would negate the effect of the head shot."

More at;
The Sunday Times

[pelsar]

90. no surprised....

i was wondering if us in the IDF can get the same leeway that the british police did...even though their screw up was, in terms of screw up far less excusable.

but then......we cant really compare a night time combat zone to a daytime walk in london....in terms of killing the wrong person-your right......whereas the first has been happening since journalists have walked in to combat zones..the second is a brand new screwup for security personal

[drdon326]

65. UH-OH !!! ......Italy now concerned about TERRORIST attack.

Italy to boost anti-terror steps

"Today, after the attacks on Madrid and London, I have to say that terrorism is knocking on Italy's door," Interior Minister Giuseppe Pisanu told MPs.

Mr Pisanu said security would be stepped up at ports and the public transport system, and mobile phones and the internet would be monitored.

There are growing fears that Italy could be the next target in Europe.

Italy has received several threats from Islamic extremists because of its support of the US-led war in Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4676743.stm

.........................................................

sad.

[drdon326]

66. The author....

is very clear about the terrorist attacks and the world wide reaction to it.

The parallels are freightening.

[newyorican]

69. One thing is certain...

...if you tried smearing Judaism in general with the bloody excesses of Israeli settlers or charming figures like the late bloodthirsty Rabbi Kahane and his followers, a firestorm of anti-Semitism accusations would be called down on your head. Yet this is precisely what some posters here feel perfectly free to do with Islam.

The number of people involved in events in New York was about twenty. The number in London maybe a dozen. The world has about a billion Muslims. Some posters simply have no shame.

-paraphrased sentiments-

NYR

[pelsar]

71. not very exact......

if the kahane cult had rabbis all over the world saying its perfectly fine to kill muslims you would have a point....if you had countries where the settlers and their children could go and learn about extreme judiaism and then go back to the settlements you might have some kind of connection...if you had kahane cult setting bombs off in different parts of the world in the name of judiasm....

very poor parrallel....stretching it for that old....equalization attempt....i.e. settlers = terrorists.....doesnt work here

and you will note that most of the posts here differentiate between extreme islam and mainstream islam (talking about settlers btw is quite the generalization...).....but then the line does get fuzzy when listening to the British "moderates"

[newyorican]

74. "if the kahane cult had rabbis all over the world..."

May not all be Rabbis, but your narrow definitions are rather meaningless to anyone other than yourself, yes?

Kahane Chai (also known as: Kach; Kahane Lives; the Kfar Tapuah Fund; the Judean Voice; the Judean Legion; the Way of the Torah; the Yeshiva of the Jewish Idea; the Repression of Traitors; Dikuy Bogdim; DOV; the State of Judea; the Committee for the Safety of the Roads; the Sword of David; Judea Police; Forefront of the Idea; the Qomemiyut Movement; KOACH; New Kach Movement; newkach.org; Kahane; Yeshivat HaRav Meir; the International Kahane Movement; Kahane.org; Kahane.net; Kahanetzadak.com; Kahane Tzadak; the Hatikva Jewish Identity Center; the Rabbi Meir David Kahane Memorial Fund; Friends of the Jewish Idea Yeshiva; Judean Congress; Jewish Legion; the Voice of Judea; No'ar Meir; Meir's Youth; American Friends of Yeshivat Rav Meir; American Friends of the United Yeshiva Movement; the Committee Against Racism and Discrimination (CARD))

Does JDL ring a bell?
JDL (JEWISH DEFENCE LEAGUE) was founded in America by Rabbi Meir Kahane - of blessed memory in June 1968.
http://www.angelfire.com/country/jdlau/

Kahane Webring

About Kahane Ideology Meetup Groups worldwide - Meetup.com
---------------------------------------

Now I suppose you will tell us all how this is meaningless and not "worldwide". You should also continue on and tell us it's okay to paint all of Islam with the crazy rantings of nut cases from around the globe abusing the religion for their own maniacal and misguided purposes, but to do the same with Judaism is very, very wrong.

Don't expect an immediate response though, while you are contemplating a response I will be out running and playing handball with some guys half my age. I will return, probably dragging my tired ass after me.

[pelsar]

83. there out there.....but the dont have rabbis sponsering them

your right IF, they had rabbis....but they dont

if my mom had wheels she would be a bicycle....


but no rabbis...no major figures (like the govt sponsered imman in saudi arabia/iran/egypt) explaining how killing is a good thing. No officials sponsering their view.

(I'm sure you can dig up some good quotes from Shas rabbi....but you will find the israeli press immediatly lambasts him for idiocy-meaning we dont accept it)

your IF....eplains it all rabbis, immans/priests provide the spirutal justification that drag in the "moderates" without that justification the terrorists are no more than mere criminals.