Dr. Jones rebuttle to all OCTers . . . esp. here at DU

[Klimmer]

I would like to add "Yea, what Dr. Jones said."

You OCTers here at DU know who you are, and we do to.

Pull your heads out, read, and learn. No, I'm not going to hold your hand. No, I can't do it for you, nor am I going to read it to you. Sorry I only read out loud for my children that can not yet read, and then mostly at bedtime. You should be old enough to do it own your own.

Dr. Jones: Answers to Objections and Questions (with current additions Aug. 15, 2006):
http://www.journalof911studies.com/JonesAnswersQuestionsWorldTradeCenter.pdf

[BootinUp]

1. I get a corrupt file warning, can't open it.

I should be happy. ;)

[Twist_U_Up]

2. Thanks for this . It will come in handy dandy. Works great for me

opened just fine.

[whistle]

3. Thanks, works for me also

[John Q. Citizen]

4. Works for me! The limitations put on by NIST are

interesting. i wonder why they don't want to know what happened in it's entirety?

Guess that's not important to them.

[BootinUp]

5. file worked ok now, but 189 pages! holy smokes

I'll get back to you after I sifted through the propaganda to find the "answers".

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. Why bother?

All you have to do is listen to FAUX, they always tell the truth.

[BootinUp]

7. You just don't like me. admit it.

:)

[DoYouEverWonder]

14. Believe it or not

I do like Wes Clark, it's just some of his supporters that scare me. You are a weird bunch.

However, anyone who supports holding Rummie and the top leadership accountable for Abu Ghraib and Gitmo can't be all bad. ;-)
So there must be at least some hope for you?

[Jazz2006]

33. It was 189 pages on Aug 22; it was 205 pages on Aug. 9; it's 204 pages now

With no indication what was added and subtracted along the way.

Strange way to present "scholarly" work, that.

[gbwarming]

8. Is this the best Jones can do?

It's filled with pathetic suppositions such as this one on page 97:

“One molecule, described by the EPA's
Erik Swartz, was present at levels "that
dwarfed all others":
• “1,3-diphenylpropane. "We've never
observed it in any sampling we've ever
done," Swartz said.”
• http://www.newsday.com/news/health/nyhsair0911,0,471193.
story?coll=ny-homepage-right-area
• http://oaspub.epa.gov/eims/xmlreport.display?deid=62021&z_c
hk=65088
• Large amounts of 1,3 diphenylpropane strongly suggest that
high-tech sol-gel thermite arson used on the WTC buldings.
• We are further researching these matters…


Now, follow the epa link and find another possible source of the mystery compound that Jones sees as evidence for "high-tech sol-gel thermite":

...
In addition, the compound 1,3-diphenyl propane <1',1'-(1,3-propanediyl)bis-benzene> is found in significant concentrations. This species has not previously been reported from ambient sampling. It has been associated with polyvinyl chloride materials, which are believed to be in abundance at the WTC site.
...

Without further, far more convincing evidence I'll take the commonplace PVC explanation over the aerogel based nano thermite. Jones fails to even mention this simple explanation, let alone demonstrate that sol-gel nano-thermite might produce it, or that these sol-gels explosives are available in anything larger than lab scale quantities.

[carlvs]

9. You're not kidding about PVC abundance...

I found this wiki entry on polyvinyl chloride, or as it is more commonly known as, PVC: (I highlighted the materials that would have likely been in existence at the WTC)

"There are many uses for PVC. As a hard plastic, it is used as vinyl siding, magnetic stripe cards, window profiles, gramophone records (which is the source of the name for vinyl records), pipe, plumbing and conduit fixtures. It can be made softer and more flexible by the addition of plasticizers, the most widely used being phthalates. In this form, it is used in clothing and upholstery, and to make flexible hoses and tubing, flooring, roofing membranes, and electrical cable insulation. material is often used for pipelines in the water and sewer industries because of its inexpensive nature and flexibility."

Did Mr Jones take all this into account before making his accusation... somehow I really doubt it.

[BootinUp]

10. yep, PVC is one of the most common plastic materials

It has excellent chemical resistance, weathering resistance, and its inherently flame retardent.

[DoYouEverWonder]

11. Amazing

it all turned to dust.

PVC is tough shit. Yet look at the rubble piles. No computers, no monitors, no plastic stuff.



Where did rooms like this go?

[AZCat]

12. When you drop something from a great height...

and then drop lots of other stuff on top of it, it doesn't have a very good chance of remaining intact. Were you expecting pristine examples of office furnishings?

[DoYouEverWonder]

13. If the building pancaked

then I'd expect the equipment made out of PVC to look like pancakes.

Turning PVC into dust is another matter entirely.

[BootinUp]

15. Who says you couldn't have found some if you looked?

Did you go dig through the rubble?

[DoYouEverWonder]

16. I've looked at every

hi-res pic I can get my hands on. It's the next best thing to being there. Here's just a couple of the top of my head.








There's a lot more pics out there if you open your eyes.

[BootinUp]

18. Seems like you would

need to be closer to identify objects in that pile, than the pictures are taken from.

I test plastics, all kinds. If you have a toughened impact modified material then it is relatively soft and will be flattened under any appreciable load. If it is a stronger reinforced plastic material, it would likely shatter under high speed impacts. Take it for what its worth.

[DoYouEverWonder]

20. Yes, some of the plastics

would shatter, some of the plastics would flatten, and some of the plastics would just be covered in dust, depending on what forces were exerted. The fact that a group of people in a stairwell could survive, would indicated that there should be some recognizable pieces of equipment such has CPU boxes and telephones, refrigerators (most companies have a lunch room), soda machines...? In every picture it's all the same. Dust, rubble, pieces of steel and paper. Sometimes cars and trucks that were outside of the buildings. That's it.

[Carefulplease]

21. These were high and heavy buildings...

Lower estimates of their mass (250,000 metric tons) yield roughly 125 tons of TNT in strored gravitational potential energy. This energy is available to produce damage and heat things up during the collapse.

Consider the pressure when the collapsed stack floors get close to the ground. Greening's momentum transfer analysis yields a terminal velocity of 90m/s. Deceleration of the falling mass over 30m results in an average acceleration of 135m/s^2. If the mass of the falling stack of rubbles is 200,000 tons, and the surface area 4050m^2, then the downward pressure is 6700 kPa or 140,000 pounds per square foot. This would crush your average refrigerator and might even break a few eggs within.

[mirandapriestly]

23. Remember that firefighter who said

he could find no objects, no phones, no computers, something like that, he couldn't believe it and he was there. There is no doubt you are correct DYEW, and look how people are arguing....I'm glad you've been bringing this up about how everything turned to dust, I mean, I don't recall seeing any chunks of concrete in the photos at all, or any kind of, well, "objects". Now how did that happen?

[John Q. Citizen]

27. It's the "magic building theory." to go along with the

"magic airplane theory," and the "magic stock options theory," and the "magic air defense theory," and the "magic secret service defense of the CIC theory" and the "magic Osama Theory" and the "magic cell phones theory," and i'm just getting started...

[hack89]

28. So how would explosives do all that?

If the explosives were use to cut the columns, they would have minimal effect on the contents on the building or the floor. Remember, shaped cutting charges focus their energy into a narrow jet of moltem steel - that's how they cut steel. Are you saying that the plotters also piled tons of explosives in the center of large open office spaces to pulverise everything? It makes no sense whats so ever.

[John Q. Citizen]

17. So Swartz, a scientist for the EPA,, says

“1,3-diphenylpropane. "We've never
observed it in any sampling we've ever
done," Swartz said.”

Then he's contradicted by who at his own agency, the EPA?

I can't follow your links, they seem broken.

Thanks for clearing this up.

Before you rag on Jones perhaps you can provide working links? And doesn't Swartz from the EPA deserve at least some damnation from you?

[Carefulplease]

19. No, Swartz does not deserve damnation.

http://oaspub.epa.gov/eims/xmlreport.display?deid=62021&z_chk=65088

In addition, the compound 1,3-diphenyl propane <1',1'-(1,3-propanediyl)bis-benzene> is found in significant concentrations. This species has not previously been reported from ambient sampling. It has been associated with polyvinyl chloride materials, which are believed to be in abundance at the WTC site.

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=168805&category=SEP11&BCCode=SEP11&newsdate=8/19/2006

One molecule, described by the EPA's Erik Swartz, was present at levels "that dwarfed all others": 1,3-diphenylpropane. "We've never observed it in any sampling we've ever done," Swartz said. He said it was most likely produced by the plastic of tens of thousands of burning computers.

[John Q. Citizen]

22. Thanks for the working links. And for the full quote. n/a

[gbwarming]

25. Sorry about the links JQC

I copied the text verbatim from the Jones pdf forgetting that I had repaired them to view the pages. The complete Swartz quote was not included in the pdf. I think Jones has done a lot of this extremely selective quoting in the past and it makes me suspicious of his motives.

Also, the pdf has been revised in the last few hours and the page in question is now 100 rather than 97 as I stated.

[Ka hrnt]

24. My favorite was the talk about the "media" coverage...

...they're using the exact same asinine "our movement is growing" line that the Intelligent Design folks use--"We're gaining support!!!"

[whistle]

26. I believe Dr Jones is onto something and his rebuttals have been

...thorough and well researched. This latest effort on his part is no exception. The truth shall set us free!

[gbwarming]

29. Good Grief. There's a thermate fingerprint in my frying pan

from the pdf, page 86 (as of this evening)

"Fluorine is present in an oxidizer using
Polytetrafluoroethylene as its base,
used in thermite charges."


Ok, there are pyrotechnic materials which use Polytetrafluoroethylene. However that long, unfamiliar chemical name "Polytetrafluoroethylene" is commonly called PTFE, or it's registered DuPont trade name "Teflon". Jones is asserting that trace Flourine in his samples is from teflon AND that suggests that an exotic fluorine oxidized thermite is it's likely source.

On the other hand, teflon is not uncommon in office and building environments and Fluorine compounds are not rare. Jones has also mis characterized the PTFE oxidized "compound B" mixtures in the paper cited http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/1344-QDsu9M/webviewable/1344.pdf as thermite because they contain no Iron Oxide and would therefore not produce the solidified Iron he's analyzing.

Elsewhere on page 82:

Previously molten metal has very little (if any)
Chromium yet abundant Manganese* we rule out
molten structural steel (as a major component)

Later on page 86:

Hence, K, Mn and F are often present in
thermite residue, suggesting they are
part of a “thermite fingerprint” at WTC.

I don't know anything offhand about potassium except that it is a common element but another glaring mischaracterization is that the lack of Cr in the sample rules out structural steel and Mn suggests thermite. This is bullshit, which he could have easily determined with a cursory glance at relevant ASTM steel standards. A36 is a common structrual steel which has no significant Cr content but approx 1% Mn by weight in most plate thicknesses. According to the NIST materials studies the core columns were probably A36 or similar strength Vanadium alloy steels contianing little Cr. Mn is present in most structural steels - if it was missing you would have to wonder why.

I think that if Jones could get a metallurgist or material scientist on his team a lot of these basic errors could be avoided. I'd also like to see a complete analysis of the composition of each of the materials under evaluation rather than the visually appealing, but incomplete electron microprobe photos.

[BootinUp]

30. Pg 22 - "FEMA drawing is misleading"

Whats misleading is making the picture so small you can't read the notations.

The diagram is only showing part of the structure one core column and one perimeter column connected by floor system. And it is clearly annotated.

see Chapter 2 Pg 25
http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch2.pdf

[BootinUp]

31. How many times is this document going to change?

Just wondering. Now it has a table of contents, what else has been changed?

[Jazz2006]

32. Who knows?

It's been changed several times already and it seems as though none of the changes are noted in the document. That in itself is dishonest, and wholly unacceptable for a supposed "scholarly" work that has been widely disseminated in its previous incarnations.

I note that this very thread started on August 22 and linked to the document that was, at that time, updated on August 15. Now the "same" presentation, without any notations as to the changes, is updated as of August 25.

Pretty shoddy, really.