Strange Coincidences: Interacting With the General Public and CTs...

[AZCat]

I found this a bit odd, so I thought I'd post here and ask for other DUer's opinions or anecdotes if something similar has happened to them.

I haven't been posting to DU for that long, but I have been aware of the alternative theories of the events of September 11th for some time. I have not, however, had any of those come up in ANY conversation outside of DU; hence my surprise at what happened to me.

I work at a hardware store here in Tucson on the weekends (I go to school during the week) and have done so for some time. We don't get the sort of crowd I would link to either politics or CTs, so I was surprised when last weekend someone brought up the 'No Plane Hit the Pentagon' theory up with me out of the blue. It was even more shocking when the same thing happened today, except the guy included the 'WTC Plane Without Windows' theory. I chatted with both people for a bit (I was busy today so I was cut short). While I don't necessarily agree with these theories, I found it surprising that people were so willing to bring them up unheeded, and that they might have sunk into the public consciousness farther than I had thought. I had bought into the whole 'internet as a fishbowl' idea and didn't think that these ideas were widespread.

Are my experiences unusual? Have any of my fellow DUers had similar experiences? If so, I would be interested in hearing your stories!

[Katherine2]

1. What's the

WTC Plane without windows theory? Thanks.

[AZCat]

3. Here's what I know (not much)

There should be some about this here (it has been commented on before in this forum) but what the guy today said is that if you look at some of the video from that day, the plane that strikes the second tower appears to have no windows running along the sides. This has been linked to the idea that the plane that flew into the second tower was a setup and wasn't flown by the 'official story' hijackers. I didn't get much of a chance to talk to the guy today about it, though. Search this forum if you are interested - there should be better info, perhaps a link to video you should watch.

I hope this helps clarify.

[MercutioATC]

5. Actually, the "no windows" theory isn't from video evidence.

It's from the statement of a single reporter who claimed he didn't see windows on one of the planes. ONE eyewitness out of thousands reported this and no information as to where he was in relation to the plane is available (nor was any followup information solicited).

The "no windows" argument is unsupported bunk.

[AZCat]

6. The guy today told me an internet link where he watched some video

I wish I'd written it down - I have a horrible memory - but he claimed he drew the idea from watching a video, although I can't vouch for his claim (obviously).

Bunk? Probably, but I'm surprised that the ideas are out there anyway.

[MercutioATC]

8. I haven't seen an internet video yet that was clear enough to distinguish

windows. If you find out, let me know. The complete irresponsibility of perpetuating a theory based on a single unconfirmed witness report with no additional information is a pet peeve of mine.

[AZCat]

10. If he comes in again, I will corral him

and write down the web site. I apologize - I should've thought somebody here would want the link.

[MercutioATC]

11. No problem...I'm just interested.

[MrSammo1]

26. maybe?

It wouldn't surprise me if a video did indeed surface. I'm sure that there were plenty of video cameras running after the first Tower was hit. Look how long it took for the "pod" to be noticed? it's not like the liberal media is actually helping us by pointing out the inconsistencies?

[AZCat]

27. There were a lot...

I remember - I had just started watching the news when the second tower was hit. All the networks had started to film them, along with who-knows-how-many other cameras. If the guy comes in again this weekend I will get the web site where he said the video was and post it.

[MrSammo1]

28. get it!

soon as the government shills in here find out about it he's history.

National security and all that!

[MercutioATC]

2. There's a controller at work that firmly believes in LIHOP.

He's convinced that Bush knew exactly what would happen and when and let it happen.

[AZCat]

4. Do you talk to him about it?

I was sort of uncomfortable when this happened to me - I was so surprised by it. I have brought it up with friends in the context of related discussions, but never had it broached so abruptly before. The two guys seemed so comfortable discussing it though.

Did the guy at work approach you with this stuff, or did it come up in a conversation?

[MercutioATC]

9. It came up in conversation on the floor (while we were working)

(the "floor" is where the scopes are) We were having a political conversation and 9/11 came up. I've heard the theory (and much more bizarre ones) so it really didn't phase me, but some were really taken aback.

Generally speaking, controllers aren't as heavily weighted toward the Democratic Party as other union members, but most of us still vote, among other issues, our paychecks (and therefore Democrat). My point is that most of the people where I work make enough money that economic issues don't concern them personally but not so much that a Bush "tax cut" is a reason to vote for him.

Like most places, it's a relatively politically uninformed group. It's also a group with no clear political preference (in general). Regardless, LIHOP isn't really taken seriously where I work.

[RH]

18. There's a contrast.

I'm convinced that Bush doesn't know exactly when anything would happen anywhere. Without somebody to hand to tell him he wouldn't know how to work out what time of day it was.

[dweller]

7. I would speculate

that more people than we are aware of are perhaps sceptical of the 'official story' they have given concerning the events.
I would also speculate that they are somewhat fearful of expressing those doubts in the political climate we are in now when they run the risk of being accused of and labled 'unpatriotic' and in sympathy with terrorists.

But in a situation where they were to have trust in the individual they are speaking to, and if it were private enough and open enough (without judgement or condemnation) I believe many of us would be suprised in how many people do not believe the official line they are being asked to swallow concerning Sept.11.

just mho,
dp

[21winner]

12. Here you go.

It is the pernicious "coast to coast" and the Art Bell show that is broadcast way too widely.

These frauds have ruined late nite radio. If its BS they broadcast it.
Bell created this and he is rich for it. He is a ham and laughs all the way to the bank on 75 meters every night.

[AZCat]

13. Hmmm... I have heard of this show, but have never heard it myself

I don't know much about it - what is his show about? Does he cover CT-style topics, and is it carried widely in the US? (or perhaps my area - that could be an explanation also)

[21winner]

14. Not worth your time.

Enjoy your slumber.

[RedSock]

15. no windows story in video

i believe this is in the "911 in plane site" video -- it is a fox reporter who was on the scene live and was being interviewed. he's very clear that it did not look like a regular passenger jet to him.

the video has a website and i think part of that interview can be seen in a short clip. i assume more of it is in the actual video, which (although i have not seen it) apparently includes a lot of live reports that were never reshown or commented on.

EDIT:
http://www.911inplanesite.com/911trailer.html

[WoodrowFan]

16. it's total looney tunes

Art bvell's show was total looney tunes, people raving about how aliens were invading their brains and Art just ate it up.

[stickdog]

17. I'd say about 20% of the people I meet think the government's version

of 9/11 is full of shit for some reason or another.

But I must say that the theories you are running into are the WORST examples of the 9/11 truth movement and, IMHO, poison pill disinformation.

[RH]

19. Just goes to show, don't it, how smart Bin Laden is.

If he'd put his hand up from the start America would have said "big deal, we'll survive".

By using other means to convince people that the US government were involved he shows what a desperately insecure little hell hole the USA really is.

[stickdog]

21. No, it just goes to show how dumb 80% of the public is. After everything

US history has taught them, they still believe whatever they're being sold. Even without evidence. Even if the stories don't add up. Even if it's just another bullshit excuse in a long line of bullshit excuses to get us to support another bullshit war.

[geek tragedy]

22. This coming from a poster who described a NAZI HOLOCAUST DENIER

as "damn good reporter."

Nope, I think the stupidity lies on the other side of the line.

The conceit of CT'ers is truly astonishing. Sitting in their pajamas in front of the computer they have the whole thing figured out.

[stickdog]

24. The conceit of would be debunkers is more astonishing.

Armed only with strawmen, ad hominem attacks and "guilt by association" smears, they battle valiantly to keep the meme world safe for intellectually lazy!

[geek tragedy]

25. Actually, we do have much more evidence for our account on our side.

All CT'ers do is poke holes in the official account because there isn't perfect, 100% proof (which rarely, if ever, exists).

Example: Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. People saw a big plane hit, pieces of the wreckage match flight 77, scientific and technical experts (those whose analysis goes beyond the grade school level of "but the hole doesn't look big enough to my untrained eyes") support the official version, and the bodies of the people on board the plane are found at the Pentagon.

That, my friends, is overwhelming, "beyond a reasonable doubt" evidence that Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon.

It is not the fault of the evidence nor of the authorities if that evidence does not convince everyone. Rather, the fault lies in those who refuse to accept such evidence as the proof it is.

And, it is hardly guilt by association to point out that a person praises the work of NAZI writers and finds their work persuasive. That is indicative of a mindset and of basic thinking skills.

[reorg]

23. a few months after 9/11 the topic came up in our office

It is a German government agency and in our department work mostly well educated people. These guys speak several languages, about half of them hold PHDs and travel around the world a lot.

One of them, the department director, had read the book of Mathias Bröckers (co-author of medienanalyse who sometimes posts here). While a few colleagues didn't really care about venturing into skeptical thinking and offered little opinion either way, I would say about half of those present (mostly Greens and Liberal Democrats) questioned various elements or did not believe one bit of the official story. Only one, a moderate left union activist, almost went through the roof when I mentioned the possibility of remote-controlled planes. She dismissed any of that as incredible "conspiracy theories". It became soon very clear, though, that she never had wasted any thought on the matter ...

[MercutioATC]

29. Look at some of my exchanges with "medienanalyse"...

you may have to access the archives for the earlier ones.

I won't comment on them at all right now. Just look at them and judge relative sanity for yourself.

[reorg]

30. I read some of your "exchanges"

so please bear with me if I won't bother :-)

But I'm glad you confirmed that you have colleagues in your profession who sincerely question the "official story".

In my experience it is generally the more thoughtful people who won't buy it. And it is not a small minority, here in Germany, anyway.

Of course, the very idea that one's own government might be directed by reckless murderers is obviously unsettling, particularly for citizens in the US. "Patriotism" seems to mean so much to people there. To us Germans this sometimes looks like an alien cult.

We have been thoroughly cleansed of that. To us, the idea that a government is taken over by irresponsible and reckless individuals is something we were taught in grammar school. Ironically, since it was the Americans who saved us from fascism, we always assume that they are just as astute. It is only now, or maybe since after the fall of the Soviet empire, that many Germans realize how backward, naive, if not just square so many US citizens really are.

Therefore I am glad to see here at DU the other side, phantasy and critical thinking. I wish that more Americans would see that this is what you should be proud for, not your murderous military goons and not those who enable them.

[MercutioATC]

31. I completely agree that independent thought is positive.

I'm always interested in new viewpoints. No government (especially our current administration) is to be trusted completely, and I'm certainly no friend of this administration.

I feel it's equally dangerous, however, to disregard EVERYTHING an administration says simply because you don't agree with it. Being strictly "anti-official story" (just because the government says so) is neither better nor worse than being strictly "official story" (just because the government says so).

Everybody is entitled to judge for themselves what really happenned on 9/11, but most of the CTists I've seen here (our mutual friend included) seem to rely on the "I don't trust the U.S. government, so I'm discounting every bit of "official" information" meme to validate their theories.

In my opinion, there's little to suggest that planes (the "official" American and United planes) weren't actually flown into buildings (and the ground, in the case of UAL93) on 9/11. I've reached that conclusion through my own analysis of the available data. In my opinion, the available evidence effectively refutes all of the CTs I've seen with the exception of a couple of the "remote control" theories.

I don't believe it because I'm enamoured of this administration, I believe it because the evidence supports it.

[AZCat]

20. That's what I'd thought regarding fringe theories

And that's why I was so surprised. I wouldn't be shocked if I found out that a lot of people had suspicions about either the events of September 11th or the coverup afterwards, but for people to be so open about this to a total stranger I thought was unusual.