How many time does it take to get 81 people on board...

[Woody Box]

...and to complete the preparations for start? Is 10 minutes enough?

This is the last part of the trilogy "The strange planes from Boston".

Spiegel reporters write that gate B-26 was not opened before 7:35 (Spiegel-Buch zum 11. September, p. 43:) (translated)

////Atta and Omari reach gate 26 at 7:25. Some witnesses say they saw them running. But they are not to late. The boarding has not begun yet, ten minutes later, ten minutes before start, the passengers are called. In the USA, people take airplanes like busses.////

Is that true? Do you have boarding times of 10 minutes for transcontinental flights? In Europe, we have AT LEAST 20 minutes, usually 30 minutes or more.

So let's summarize.

We have one plane starting at 7:45 at gate 32.

We have one plane which is boarded by the passengers not before 7:35 at gate 26. We don't know when it started.

Then there is this mysterious transcontinental AA flight,
scheduled departure 8:10, which was cancelled in the last minutes due to a mechanical problem.

I leave it to your brain cells to clean up this information mess.
I'm going into holidays for a few days, so don't expect any answer
soon.

[izzie]

1. I take it you are not going to fly from Boston?

I my self go by broom.

[paulthompson]

2. Hi Woody

Can you post or PM me the entire article? Sounds like it contains some unique info.

[gandalf]

4. That was from a book

If woody did not already PM you:
He cited the information from a German book: Stefan Aust, Cordt Schnibben, Stefan Aust, "11. September 2001. Geschichte eines Terrorangriffs".

Written by reporters from "Der Spiegel", an influential supporter of the "official version".

[Woody Box]

23. translation

Paul,

I can translate the crucial passages for you, if you like. (crucial=pre-boarding and boarding phase in Boston)

There are unique data in this book, indeed. Not all of them important, of course.

[RH]

3. So maybe

gate 26 was the intended gate to use, the number given to passengers to go to, and maybe then gate 32 was the one actually used.

Maybe the plane went to the wrong gate so they then moved the passengers instead of the plane and maybe there was therefore some delay.

If the usual time to get 200 people onto an aircraft is 20 or 30 minutes, why be surprised if it takes ten minutes to handle 81?

Things do go wrong. I once had to wait aboard a plane at Heathrow for more than half an hour because there was no gate to go to after landing. We were eventually disembarked to a bus.

[DulceDecorum]

5. In the USA

the plane CANNOT go to the "wrong" gate.

The United States employs its own system in that airlines are permitted to own terminals and gates and thus effectively control market access. Since most congested US airports are dominated by one or at most two airlines, it is effectively the dominant airline which manages access to the airport from its ownership of the gates. The FAA ensures that aircraft do not take off unless arrival is assured and airspace can cope.
It is worth noting that airlines which have gone out of business in the US have been able to sell their holding of gates for a considerable sum of money which has been used to pay off creditors.
http://www.iccwbo.org/home/statements_rules/statements/1992/slot_allocation.asp

Airports will eventually be reorganized. Today in the USA the airports are controlled by airlines. Each airline "owns" a bank of gates that they control. In the future the airport will own the gates and parcel them out to airlines as needed.
I expect that many of you have arrived at an airport and heard the captain say, "The good news is that we are on time, but the bad news is that there are no gates for us. We have to wait until a plane in front of us is pushed back before we can open the doors and get you into the airport."
As you look out the window, you may notice that there are dozens of open gates. Ah ha! But not for your airline. Those open gates are controlled by a competing airline. You have to wait and look plaintively at empty Jetways.
The airlines love this system. They get more control. Travelers, unfortunately, get more delays. In many European airports the gates are controlled by the airport. When an airplane lands, airport controllers direct the plane to any open gate.
http://www.ticked.com/cheapcharlie/2000/chairport.htm

Some airline owns the gate in question,
and NOBODY else can use it unless that airline says so.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DulceDecorum]

9. An extremely stupid distraction

Logan Airport is in the midst of being almost completely rebuilt/renovated.
In addition to this, the city of Boston has been undergoing a MASSIVE roadway reconstruction project known as "the Big Dig."
Therefore, there has been a LOT of change at that airport and several airlines have had to switch gates.

RH quoted:
"...check out AA website and map of Logan Airport with their gates, they operate gates 22-36 on Terminal B. see link"
No problem.
Link checked and noted. No complaints made.

Starting May 5,(2002) Continental Airlines flights at Boston Logan will arrive and depart at Terminal C due to the planned demolition of Terminal A, as will those of Continental Express and Continental Connection. Continental will use gates 25, 27, 30 and 33.
http://www.skyguide.net/articles/200205/20020506_ealert.html

Did you ever stop
to consider the possibility that the gate numbers are arranged BY TERMINAL?

Then,
Continental might very well have gates 25, 27, 30, 33 in TERMINAL C,
whereas American Airlines has gates 22-36 in TERMINAL B.
THAT would explain the discrepancy,
and very politely I might add.

Terminal A
Terminal A is currently closed for renovation
Terminal B
Logan Airport Terminal B serves America West, American, American Eagle, American Trans Air, Business Express, Metro Jet, Midway, Qantas, US Airways, US Airways Shuttle and US Airways Express. It contains gates 1 to 27.
Terminal C
Logan Airport Terminal C serves Air France (departures only), Comair, Delta Airlines, Delta Express, Sabena (departures only), Swissair, TWA, TW Connection, United and United Express. It contains gates 11 to 41.
Terminal D
Logan Airport Terminal D serves Air Tran, Alitalia (departures only) and charter flights.
Terminal E
Logan Airport Terminal E serves Aer Lingus, Air Canada, Air France (international arrivals), Air Nova, Alitalia (international arrivals), American (international arrivals), British Airways, Icelandair, KLM, Korean Air, Lufthansa, Northwest, Olympic, Sabena, Sun Country, Swissair (international arrivals), TAP Air Portugal and Virgin Atlantic. It contains gates 1 to 8.
http://www.boston-bos.com/terminals.html
See what I mean?

At any rate, the information that we have at present is incomplete.
For example, the link that RH mentioned (see above)
only shows the American Airlines holdings.
These link show that there are quite a few other airlines located in that particular terminal.
http://www.airwise.com/airports/us/BOS/index.html
http://www.lifestylelimo.com/airportmap.htm
And who here knows what was going on on September 11,
when Terminal A was probably still in operation?

[RH]

15. Yes.

I did stop to consider the possibility that the gate numbers are arranged BY TERMINAL?

However, whether or not "Continental might very well have gates 25, 27, 30, 33 in TERMINAL C,whereas American Airlines has gates 22-36 in TERMINAL B. THAT would not explain any discrepancy. It would create a discrepancy to suppose that Continental was somehow involved, for Continental is not known to have been involved.


"See what I mean?"

No, not at all. What is the point?

"These link show that there are quite a few other airlines located in that particular terminal."

Sure. Congratulations. How wonderful to have proved what nobody would have doubted anyway.

:D

[DulceDecorum]

17. OK

American Airlines owns all the gates in all the relevant terminals and anything that says otherwise is simply a case of sloppy reporting.
Is that what you would have us believe?
Then prove it.

[RH]

19. Prove it?

I never said anything about American Airlines owning anything.

What has that got to do with it?

Do you think that the owners would have hold a board meeting whenever an operator needs to use another gate?

Count the number of airlines who use the Airport. Count the terminals. Obviously enough Airline operators have to share terminals. So what?

Flight 11 could have used gate 26 or gate 32 at Terminal B; they were both used by American Airlines; Flight 11 was an American Airlines flight; right?

So where is the problem?

Was this thread supposed to be about something unusual or sinister?

Prove it?

:shrug:

[LARED]

8. Please explain

the plane CANNOT go to the "wrong" gate.

I fly 2 to 4 times per year. I have been doing this for about 15 years. On a number of occasions the boarding gate was changed shortly before the plane was boarded; the arrival gate was either changed in-flight or incorrectly printed on my ticket; or a connecting flight gate was changed only to have to walk to another terminal to catch my flight. Once on an international flight my connecting flight did not even exist. It had been canceled three weeks prior to my arrival but no one told me.

So what is the point?

[DulceDecorum]

10. What

is YOUR point?

[LARED]

11. The point is

you stated In the USA the plane CANNOT go to the "wrong" gate.

I have on a number of occassions either landed at or departed from a different gate than was on my ticket (the right gate). Gates have also been changed while I waited to board.

So unless somehow the planes I boarded were actually at the correct gate and the whole support system at the airport was mistaken, or the plane I boarded was at the wrong gate.

It is possible I misunderstood what you meant when saying In the USA the plane CANNOT go to the "wrong" gate, if so please tell me how I am mistaken.

[DulceDecorum]

12. OK, then.

According to Lared,
within the USA,
it is ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE for a plane to go to the "wrong gate."
Please make a note of it.

However,
we are all still in agreement that the plane will ONLY go to ONE gate.
Therefore ALL the passengers got off
the plane at the SAME gate.

Hold onto that thought.
It will become important later on.

[Bolo Boffin]

13. If God is merciful n/t

[LARED]

18. I can hardly wait.

BTW, I'm not sure we are all in agreement that all the passengers get off a plane at the same gate. A few times I have arrived and departed from a gate during a stopover and stayed on the plane in order for it to pick up new passenger while it continued on it planned route. So some left and some stay on.

What this has to do with planes arriving or departing from the wrong gate should be fascinating.

I hope this will actually lead to something of substance? Please tell me this is not yet another pentagon burn victim, pentagon window, or pentagon concrete floor rabbit trail.

[DulceDecorum]

20. Lared has stated for the record

that HE HIMSELF has
"arrived and departed from a gate during a stopover and stayed on the plane in order for it to pick up new passenger while it continued on it planned route. So some left and some stay on."

Thus, Lared HIMSELF has established,
that it is indeed possible for a plane to stop at a gate
and NOT divest itself of ALL of its ticketed passengers.
Please make a note of this.
The significance of this will become apparent later on.

Lared,
since you brought up the Pentathreads,
I suggest that you GO THERE
and refute ANYTHING that has been posted.
They are all still open.
Go on then.
I double dare you.
THIS discussion pertains to the gates at Logan Airport
and the passengers of Flight 11.
Please try to stay with the program.

[LARED]

21. The suspense is killing me

:loveya:

BTW, I wasn't trying to revive the Pentagon threads (may they rest in peace). I was asking if the current DD investigative trail was really another one of these?

[RH]

22. "The significance of this"?

"...for a plane to stop at a gate
and NOT divest itself of ALL of its ticketed passengers.
Please make a note of this."?


While we're waiting to be told let us suppose for the sake of argument that 334AA may have arrived with passengers aboard to take off again with some still on board.

A likely thesis? Not really.

N334AA was a busy B767. It had been flying from Boston to San Frascisco and back twice every day.

The last record of it in the BTS database appears to be its overnight departure from SFO as Flight 198 at 21:49 (actual time)

Its arrival at BOS is not recorded in the BTS database; the data flow being apparently disrupted by notorious events; but its arrival was probably at or about the usual time of 6:24 am.

[LARED]

25. The significance of this will become apparent later on.

Well, got anything to share yet?

I just hate waiting.

[Bolo Boffin]

29. I believe Dulce posted her conclusion...

on one of the other threads. Evading actual discussion? Sloppy thread maintainance? The world will never know.

[DulceDecorum]

6. The Gatekeepers

October 23, 2002
Transportation Security Administration Federal Security Director George Naccara has advised Massport that TSA will federalize its ninth checkpoint at Logan International Airport on Thursday, October 24, 2002 when they staff the
Delta Airlines and Continental gates 25-36 in Terminal C.

Other checkpoints federalized over the past several months include:
United gates 11-21,
Delta and Midwest Express gates 40-41 and 42 in Terminal C.
American gates B4 and B5,
America West gates 37-38,
American Eagle gates 22-25 in Terminal B,
AirTran gates 1D, 1E and 1C in Terminal D and
Northwest gates 1A and 1B in Terminal E.
http://www.massport.com/about/press02/press_news_tsa3.html

Thus we can see that
gate 26 as well
as gate 32
BOTH come under the heading
"Delta Airlines and Continental gates 25-36 in Terminal C."

[OudeVanDagen]

14. Hey ... does anybody

besides me remember when all flights to NYC landed in Newark? There was no LaGuardia or Idlewild (Kennedy) yet, and Bennet Field was strictly military. Well, it don't matter but FYI we oldtime passengers used to load up those old 3 engined drafty Ford Airliners, Boeing Rattletraps and Hughes Stratoliners pretty fast ... 5 mins ... had to run awfully fast across those windy freezing cold tarmacs. No fancy air conditioned terminals, breezeways, or luggage checks. Smoking was never a problem ... they'd give you Wrigley's gum to chew if your ears wouldn't pop. Oh heck, there were only 32 passengers back then. Used to cost a lot to fly ... trains were cheaper with better service. FYI ... all the stewardesses back then had to be registered nurses. Lots of flights were detoured due to weather ... passengers knew that having a ticket to ChiTown really didn't mean you would get there ....

[DulceDecorum]

16. My word!

We must really be onto something.
And since we are into reminiscing,
does anyone here remember this bit of poetry?

There were three jovial huntsmen,
As I have heard men say,
And they would go a-hunting
Upon St. David's Day.

All the day they hunted
And nothing could they find,
But a ship a-sailing,
A-sailing with the wind.

One said it was a ship,
The other he said, Nay;
The third said it was a house,
With the chimney blown away.

And all the night they hunted
And nothing could they find,
But the moon a-gliding,
A-gliding with the wind.

One said it was the moon,
The other he said, Nay;
The third said it was a cheese,
And half of it cut away.

And all the day they hunted
And nothing could they find,
But a hedgehog in a bramble bush,
And that they left behind.

The first said it was a hedgehog,
The second he said, Nay;
The third said it was a pincushion,
And the pins stuck in wrong way.

And all the night they hunted
And nothing could they find,
But a hare in a turnip field,
And that they left behind.

The first said it was a hare,
The second he said, Nay;
The third said it was a calf,
And the cow had run away.

And all the day they hunted
And nothing could they find,
But an owl in a holly tree,
And that they left behind.

One said it was an owl,
The other he said, Nay;
The third said it was the evil one,
And they all ran away.

[Woody Box]

24. The "gate change" theories don't work

I repeat myself with little additions:

We have one plane starting at 7:45 at gate 32. This is plane A.

We have one plane which is boarded by the passengers not before 7:35 at gate 26. This is plane B.

Obviously A=B is impossible. Or is someone here promoting the idea that the passengers embarked plane B in 5 minutes, that this plane moved to gate 32 for whatever reason and pushed back from this gate again just 5 minutes later?

That's why the gate change theories don't work. A and B are different planes. A is the plane which crashed into the WTC - according to the official version. So what happened to the passengers of plane B?

And, finally: There is this mysterious transcontinental AA flight, scheduled departure 8:10, which was cancelled in the last minutes due to a mechanical problem. This is plane C.

So we have THREE transcontinental AA flights within half an hour? This is not a very economic scenario, so we should try to reduce the number. Maybe plane C is identical to A or B.

A=C? No. Plane A was not cancelled. It departed on time. Plane C was cancelled, apart from the different scheduled departure time.

B=C? This seems to be possible. We don't know anything about B's actual departure time, and it's absolutely possible that this flight was cancelled. Also, the boarding time 7:35 of plane B perfectly fits the scheduled departure time 8:10 of plane C.

So the hypothesis B=C deserves closer consideration.

And there are still the questions: What happened to the passengers of B? What happened to the passengers of C?

[RH]

26. Perhaps this will assist your comprehension:

Mistake

Definition:
1. noun: a wrong action attributable to bad judgment or ignorance or inattention; "he made a bad mistake"; "she was quick to point out my errors"; "I could understand his English in spite of his grammatical faults"
2. noun: an understanding of something that is not correct; "he wasn't going to admit his mistake"; "make no mistake about his intentions"; "there must be some misunderstanding--I don't have a sister"
3. noun: part of a statement that is not correct; "the book was full of errors"
4. verb: to make a mistake or be incorrect
5. verb: identify incorrectly; "Don't mistake her for her twin sister"
6. verb: mistake one thing for another; "you are confusing me with the other candidate"; "I mistook her for the secretary

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/mistake

[Woody Box]

30. Dis is werry kint frrom you

Thanks for the English lesson. But let's stay on the subject.

May I give you a lesson in physics? (I will stay on the subject.)

Planes are no quantum objects. It's impossible for a plane to be at different positions at the same time.

Time: 9/11/01, 7:45 am

There was a plane at gate 32 - I think this was your position, and you are right.

But there was also a plane at gate 26 - according to countless reports, not just the ones mentioned by me.

Because planes are no quantum objects, the plane at gate 32 is not the same one as the plane at gate 26.

The plane from gate 32 crashed into the North Tower, according to the official version.

Where are the passengers of the plane at gate 26?

[RH]

31. Countless reports?

I have no position.

You asked for comment.

When I search google.com for "Flight 11" and "Gate 26" it comes up with a selection of 11 from 28 finds.

From what I have seen of them so far in the given respect, they all appear me to parrot each other and not one of them claims to be a primary source; none of the writers were there to see for themsleves.

Do where please do you find your countless number?

Before spending any more time on the analysis I want to see some better evidence.

What do American Airways have to say about it?

[Woody Box]

36. I think there are enough reports

And there is the Spiegel book.

The Spiegel book is written by 17 reporters, swarming across the ocean and going down in Boston, New York, Florida.
This is a worthful primary source.

But I agree with you, we should look for more confirmation. I don't know if we can trust the AA bureaucracy as they seem not to be able to assign the correct flight numbers to their flights. (-> AA 43). The missing flight 11 in the bts database is a similar problem.

We should look for eyewitnesses.

[RH]

40. I have not yet noticed

an identification of any one primary source for the "Gate 26" version.

Whether or not the transcript is correct I accept the New York Times version as a primary source because we know exactly enough where it is supposed to have come from originally.

In much the same way I would accept the BTS database as a primary source; the origin of the information is clear enough.

In the mean time the people you mention above would all have heard it from somebody else, would they not?

The news reports I see would also have got it from somebody else and we do not even know who or where they got it from, do we?

[RH]

27. "not before 7:35 at gate 26"?

Because of what do you prefer to select your source?

According to Mitchell Zuckoff at the Boston Glode ("Gate 26")

"Flight 11 began boarding around 7:20 a.m."
http://www.boston.com/news/packages/underattack/globe_stories/0916/Reliving_the_morning_of_death+.shtml

[Woody Box]

32. Sloppy journalism

//// Because of what do you prefer to select your source? ////

This is an allegation of the type "When did you stop to beat your wife?" and therefore inadmissible.

Be careful! This article is offering us already one big blunder:

/// He ((Ogonowski)) walked toward Gate 26, where the plane that would be designated Flight 11 had been waiting for him since the night before. ///

We know from the bts database that the plane was flying back from SFO in the night before. It was not waiting for Ogonowski.

So this article seems to be a masterpiece of sloppy journalism. And it's not corroborated either.

The Spiegel stuff is much more detailed. Until we are in the possession of direct statements of witnesses, we should refer to this book as the most likely version.

Apart from that, even if the Globe article is right, it doesn't change the fact that there was a plane at gate 32 and one at gate 26 at the same time.

[Bolo Boffin]

33. Two planes at two different gates at Logan Airport??????

At the same time????? Heavens.

I don't understand your concern for the detail of the plane waiting for Ogonowski since the night before. The plane flew in from SFO the night before, and then waited for Ogonowski. Nights last 8-10 hours here in the States, and the SFO-BOS flight takes about four hours, I believe. Plenty of wiggle room for both statements of fact to be correct.

[Woody Box]

35. Yes. Two times flight 11, obviously (nT)

[RH]

39. Why "obviously "?

I see an interpretation, not a "fact".

What, if anything, apart fron the traffic control transcript in the New York Times, would corrobate your interpretation?

You do not even appear to have a sensible suggestion to present as to what sort of aircraft your second candidate would be.

[Woody Box]

41. Obviously, indeed. 2X flight 11. Case closed. (nT)

[RH]

38. wiggle room ?

The usual arrival time for 198, the overnight flight, was 6.24.

Waiting since 6:24 am is not "waiting overnight" by any stretch of the imagination.

[RH]

28. "Do you have boarding times of 10 minutes"?

15 minutes

"Seth MacFarlane missed the flight because his travel agent wrote down 8:15 a.m. as the departure time. The flight left at 7:45 a.m. He arrived at the ticket counter at Boston’s Logan International Airport with about 10 minutes to spare, well under the mandatory 15-minute check-in time. He was told that he would have to rebook. Sorry, you’re too late, the airline employees said. The plane will leave without you. You've cut it too close to departure."

http://zephyr.unr.edu/spring02/community/archives/com_riddle_lucky.html

[Woody Box]

34. That's not the same

I wanted to know the usual time of the beginning of the boarding process, not the last possible check-in.

[RH]

37. If that's what you wanted,

why didn't you ask for it?

The question you asked was "do you have boarding times of 10 minutes for transcontinental flights".

Given that the latest time allowed is 15 minutes before departure, the answer to that question is clearly, no, is it not?