How Much More Do You Need To Know Before You Admit It Was MIHOP?

[Solomon]

What else do you need?

I swear the guy can actually confess to it and people will say it was necessary to defend "our way of life".

The biggest reason for the spying? To find out who was getting close to finding out what they did.

[SofaKingLiberal]

1. Dude...

:popcorn:

[babylonsister]

2. We've been spied on. That is from our own government for

nefarious reasons. Pls. don't cloud the issue with 9/11.
THEY spied on the American people for their own reasons.
We need to find out why.
We need to stop them.
EOM

[Solomon]

4. Yeah yeah. I just told you why. Do you not see that for them, hiding

their crimes is a "national security issue"? Everytime he opens his pie hole he says "september theeeeee 11th. Every time. But if somebody else wants to talk about it, it's "clouding the issue."

Shit. It IS the issue.

[babylonsister]

7. A commission was formed and is done. Who are you trying

to convince at this point? I'd prefer to go after the 'gettable' issues.

[Solomon]

9. Commission? Who tried to stop your commission from even

forming. Yeah I really think we got to the bottom of it with that commission. :crazy:

[babylonsister]

12. So how do you suggest getting to 'the bottom of it'? Do tell... nt

[Solomon]

14. By starting with a healthy suspicion. Excuse me, but do you think we

could have spent just a little more money on the investigation. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting anything near the amount that was spent raking the Clintons over the coals. After all, real estate deals and porking interns are a real national security matter. No, no. Just a little more than 3 million might turn up something.

[Solomon]

18. Furthermore, why don't we start we the stock trades before that day.

How hard is it to find out who dumped all that stock. The conventional wisdom is that it was the "terrorists". Well okay. Let'sfor the sake of argument suppose that it was. Wouldn't that have told us exactly which "terrorists" were involved? Wouldn't we have been able to trace the money and arrest the perpetrators rather than declare war on "terrorism"?

The most despicable thing I find about 9-11 and the war on iraq is not only the ugliness of it, but the bastards are making a financial killing of it. A whole new classof billionaires are being born as we speak. It'sdownright disgusting.

[libhill]

34. And meantime

the troops that we "support" are being shipped home as "freight" when they're KIA -

[YourBrother]

54. i would suggest

possibly appointing someone other than the mass murderer henry kissinger as the head of the enquiry?

so many facts from that day have been misreported, intentionally, in order for it to focus the american people on a common enemy, thereby distracting them from the real threat, to peace throughout the world and in your own land too, your own government

it's not clouding any issues, it's one and the same, part of the same plan of theirs, connect the dots, send them to jail, and don't do it again or you'll get a smacked bum

simple

[libhill]

33. That commision was a farce

just like the Warren Commision, fodder for the sheeple.

[DemonFighterLives]

24. I respect your opinion on many things

but giving that commission any faith is beyond me.
They lied, stonewalled, named Kissinger and finally planted enough on the commission to totally obfuscate all issues. There were no good reasons why the military failed to come to work that day. No investigation of the Put options. Supposedly there was going to be more information coming as to Saudi Arabia's involvement, but nothing yet.

[janedoe]

17. I know what you mean.

[Peter Frank]

22. Love the toon -- It's going into my collection... n/t

[janedoe]

25. Thanks! :-)

Source: www (dot) parapolitics.info/images/Bush/image_1721817.gif

(Sorry. I didn't know how to post the link without it turning into a picture.)

[Little Star]

31. Man that toon says it all....

Also another good one:
picture Bush as Gomer Pyle running around yelling 9/11,9/11

[libhill]

32. Exactly -

same way Nixon used to talk about "that Bay of Pigs thing" constantly - code for the J.F.K. murder.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

35. This administration is listing.... and I mean that in both a

seafaring way as well as a criminal one.

[LunaC]

3. Anyone who still doubts

hasn't read the link in my sig line yet.

[Proud_Lefty]

5. I'm totally convinced

However I realize that many in this country are not ready to hear it and acknowledge it YET. The conspiracy theory makes much more sense than the official story, all the way down to what was ignored beforehand, during and after the attacks. Only those whom I have had the luxury of discussing bits over a long period of time have come to believe the MIHOP. But when I bring it up at a DFA meeting, the looks immediately glaze over, shut down, won't participate. You know what? That's exactly how I felt when I first started hearing more facts. It hurts too much to believe it. A lot more people are coming around, but people don't want to hear the facts when they know where it's leading, and that destination is horrifying.

[Solomon]

6. He sat there in that class room and literally waited for the whole thing

to play itself out.

[tavalon]

48. I've been firmly in the LIHOP camp for a while

And I don't think this current stuff changes that one iota. What is it about the current events that moves it from LIHOP to MIHOP? I have a healthy suspicion that direction but when it careens into missiles on planes and planes that never crashed, it loses credibility.

Would they have been willing to do it? Hell, yes. I had some doubts that they could have pulled it off. I still do.

[Solomon]

53. The new current event that adds a piece to the puzzle is the revelation

that Bush tried to get war powers INSIDE THE US. That when he was rebuffed, anthrax appeared.

[dailykoff]

8. I think that's a fair assessment.

Next question: what the hell are they torturing Afghani taxi drivers for?

[babylonsister]

10. Welcome to DU; pls. provide a link, and who are 'they'? nt

[dailykoff]

15. Thank you,

and "they" are us I'm afraid. I read a report a few months back on how the US filled its torture prisons after 9/11 by buying prisoners from Afghani warlords, who basically rounded up their enemies or randomly pulled people off the streets. I'll see if I can find a link.

Meanwhile, here's what happened to one of the unlucky taxi drivers:

And the U.S. government has confirmed other atrocities committed in Afghanistan--like the case of a 22-year-old taxi driver named Dilawar who died with his wrists chained to the top of his cell at Bagram Air Base after being tortured for nearly four days by U.S. interrogators.

http://www.counterpunch.org/ruder10262005.html

[mattclearing]

40. Very funny.

Clearly you are well informed on this matter. :eyes:


Regardless, welcome to DU. :hi:

[radio4progressives]

11. I know all about PNAC and 9/11 - But what the hell is "MIHOP"?

never heard of MIHOP. :shrug:

[leftstreet]

13. Make It Happen On Purpose

[KitchenWitch]

16. And conversly LIHOP=Let it happen on purpose.

[leftstreet]

19. That's right! Although I see little difference between the two.

If your desk is stacked with intel files indicating named terra-ists are about to fly planes into the WTO - why go to the trouble of planting explosives to help "make it happen?" The effect is gonna be the same.
:eyes:

[KitchenWitch]

21. true enough!

:grr:

[DemonFighterLives]

23. For one thing the planes could not do all that damage

The planting of the explosives took some time.
The main reason for the two definitions is that some will never buy the fact that someone in the US could be evil enough to pull this off. To LIHOP, they only had to let a plan go unstopped.

[leftstreet]

26. True. Kinda like finding out there is no Santa Claus. n/t

[tavalon]

50. I believe they are evil enough

I just think it would have taken way too many people to pull that off. The more people, the less likely it is to be pulled off without someone screwing up or deciding to tell, whether for money, fame or absolution.

[lala_rawraw]

20. Can we just say things and not code them?

It drives me crazy because it makes it sound like some crazy theory from the forest of aliens or something. It is very simple to say, there is no difference between made it happen or let it happen: by letting something happen you are making it happen. But that aside, it seems to me there is only one explanation as to what happened on that day:

We outsourced a black bag job to Pakistan and made sure that a few people in key positions left the doors open on that day. Is there any doubt in my mind that certain members of this administration were in key positions that day knowing full well what the plot was? No doubt at all. Is Cheney one of those people? No doubt at all. Is Feith one of those people? No doubt at all. Is Bush one of those people, I doubt it for the simple reason of plausible deni -ability.

But if you understand that then you understand what the reasons for the NSA spy ring were... namely, to contain what came out or who was snooping into what and my guess they were spying on intel folks.

This of course is theory, but there is more evidence for an administration aided plot than there is for the existence of God and no one calls religion a conspiracy theory, right?

So off to bed I go:)

[Karmakaze]

28. Actually, there is a difference...

LIHOP assumes that there actually IS an organisation called "Al Qaeda" that has no connection to the US Government and that is determined to attack the US by any means available.

MIHOP assumes that the organisation known as "Al Qaeda" is in fact a CIA front organisation tasked with carrying out false flag operations that either damage adversaries' assets, or provide justification for US military involvement.

There is in fact a WHOLE lot of evidence for the latter, including the fact that BEFORE the US went in to help "save" the Kosovo Albanians from the "evil" Serbs, "Al Qaeda" was in Kosovo training and equipping Kosovo Albanian terrorists to attack Serbs. I once had a link to a US State Department terrorism document that spelled it all out. Sadly I have lost the link and I really can't be bothered trying to find it. I have given up trying to convince people of the truth.

Another example would be the "Al Qaeda" chemical weapons factory the CIA convinced Clinton to bomb. Turns out it was simply a pharmaceutical factory making cheap drugs for Africans. Too bad for them huh?

Then there is the first WTC attack. There was an informant in the group. He was asked to supply explosives and went to his FBI handlers and told them to give him some inert material that could be substituted for the explosives. At the last minute the FBI decide to provide REAL explosives. So the bomb that went off in the garage of the WTC used explosives provided by the FBI. Bummer huh?

In any case, find an "Al Qaeda" operation and I can show you either how the US Government benefitted from it or participated in it.

"Al Qaeda" is a fiction. Sure some of the people who fight under that name THINK they are fighting against the US etc, but in reality the big attacks always HELP the US Government rather than hurt it. If "Al Qaeda" was genuine, they would be bombing oil pipelines and tankers all over the Gulf. There would be no quicker way to bring the US to its knees than to cut off the oil. Everyone knows this, but no one asks why "Al Qaeda" has never touched the oil infrastructure.

The answer is simple - "Al Qaeda" is CIA.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Enraged_Ape]

36. I was a skeptic about this, but I now agree wholeheartedly

The first time bin-Laden/al-Qaeda showed up just in time to help Bush advance some part of his agenda, I thought, "Coincidence."

The second time bin-Laden/al-Qaeda showed up just in time to help Bush advance some part of his agenda, I thought, "Weirder coincidence."

The third time bin-Laden/al-Qaeda showed up just in time to help Bush advance some part of his agenda, I thought, "Now, that's just really bizarre."

The fourth time bin-Laden/al-Qaeda showed up just in time to help Bush advance some part of his agenda, I thought, "These are no coincidences. This is a goddam pattern."

[Celebration]

61. uh huh

Right before the election. Not hard to add two plus two.

[AuntiBush]

67. What Threw Me...

Where was Norad? Stand-down orders have been mentioned on various links. Don't we have something like 15 layers of air defense?

Bush1 & Bin Laden family member meeting at same time in (?) DC or NY.

Bush, just sitting there! That's not how a President acts when we're under attack, & he calls himself the wo' prez. Oh, please...

Anthrax, to Newspapers and Democrats, not 1 Republicans. ***Dah***

All were allowed to freely leave the country, when we couldn't even fly our not-so-friendly skies.

And the list goes on and on. Is it any wonder we all question this.

Norad is my biggest issue. Conspiracy Theorists? Yup, and what of it. Think it's just a way to shut people-up. Not buying it.

[eridani]

78. Why are you assuming that the pre-electin tape was real?

Modern audio equipment, given enough clips of a person's voice, can synthesize an entire speech from scratch, which could then be overlaid on a bin Laden video from back when he was healthy.

[no safe haven]

42. "The answer is simple - "Al Qaeda" is CIA."

‘Al Qaeda’ = 'the base in Arabic.
“… the term ‘al Qaeda’ … meaning ‘the base’ in Arabic, it originally referred to an Afghan operational base for the mujahideen during the Soviet occupation in the '80s … this name was imposed externally by Western officials and media sources. Mr. bin Laden has, in fact, never mentioned ‘al Qaeda’ publicly.”

www.csmonitor.com/2002/0523/p11s02-coop.html

On the other hand, however, His Chimpness is on record clearly identifying his ‘base’/al qaeda: "This is an impressive crowd - the haves and the have-mores. Some people call you the elites; I call you my base."

This is the reason 'al Qaeda' has not sabotaged the oil infrastructure.

[Karmakaze]

71. Bingo...

I do believe that since Sept 11, some "Al Qaeda" units are actually real terrorist groups that co-opted the name for publicity purposes, not realising that every contact with the "real Al Qaeda" was merely providing intel directly to the US. So for example "Al Qaeda in Iraq" may actually just be a bunch of Iraqi insurgents who think that the letters they send to Zawahiri are being "intercepted" rather than HANDED OVER to the CIA.

Has anyone else ever noticed that there has never been a direct attack on the President? Even the so called plan to attack daddy Bush was not "Al Qaeda" but an Iraqi operation, and was thoroughly exposed (if it even actually happened). So not only the oil infrastructure seems off limits to "Al Qaeda" but the actual leadership of the US has never been directly targetted.

Sept 11 - the one aircraft that failed to hit its target was supposedly aimed at the White House. Convenient huh?

Does this all mean I think the hijackers knew they were carrying out a CIA operation? No, it doesn't. They were patsies convinced to carry out an attack that was carefully followed by the CIA, and only the parts of the plan that would benefit the Cabal were allowed to succeed.

People may not believe this, and as I said I can't be bothered trying to convince them anymore, but if you want to know what the Bush Cabal is up to, just look for where and what "Al Qaeda" attacks. You can be sure that if and when they do attack, the Cabal will be using it as an excuse for something, and it will not be at all damaging to the Cabal - even if it IS damaging to the PEOPLE of the US.

[tavalon]

52. Wow

Now, that's intriguing and truly something obvious I never thought of. Thanks. I will muse and research some more. Thanks.

[Beam Me Up]

63. This is how I see it too. And this is important because it shows our real

enemy is something far more sinister than even the Bush administration itself. In other words, Bush could be removed from office and this deeper infrastructure wouldn't be directly touched. Inconvenienced, perhaps, having lost their hand puppet, but neither revealed nor significantly impaired.

I'm beginning to have a little hope that the various threads that make up this monster are beginning to unravel. But if the truth of 9/11 is not revealed to the American people so that we can move forward from this point and heal our nation--I see no hope for us at all. As it is WE HAVE BEEN LIVING A LIE--the whole "War on Terrorism"(tm) is a lie--a nightmare fantasy--and we must wake up and become reality based again so that we CAN address the very REAL threats to our national security.

[Karmakaze]

72. Yes, exactly...

Bush Jnr is NOT the boss, nor is even Cheney. This has been going on for so long, and may even go all the way back to the Kennedy assassination - hell even back to Hitler and before. I wouldnt even necessarily call it a conspiracy - in reality it is just another manifestation of the facist forces driving many of the world's richest people and corproations.

It's not like some super shadowy group that lurks behind the scenes working for Satan or something, it's just another way to do business. Many of the people involved would probably be able to wax lyrical on how they were only doing what was best for the people, and that "you can't handle the truth" and that sometimes you have to "break a few eggs to make an omelette".

Im sure most of the people involved really think they are doing the right thing, but I think it harks back to that old belief (I think it was Plato) that said that there was a few chosen people who should run the government becasue they were willing to make the decisions necessary for the betterment of society, and that most people should just live happy comfortable lives blissfully ignorant of the "hard decisions" made for them by the elite.

We all live in an artificial reality, where what we THINK is going on is NOT what is actually going on. In our artificial reality, the US is ALWAYS on the side of good, and the "enemy" is ALWAYS evil. If we work hard we will be rewarded - in heaven for the religious types, with wealth for the less gullible. This artificial reality is created in the media, both fiction and "fact" based, and is kept alive at the expense of truth for the benefit of the power elites.

The reality is that the vast majority of us are merely slaves working day to day to the benefit of the power elites while the scraps are thrown to us from the table at which they feast - we are the FIRST to suffer, and the LAST to benefit. And we have been turned on each other by the careful manipulation of the artificial reality. The power elites dont care if we are gay or straight, black or white, American or Iraqi. All they care about is how we can be used to benefit them with our blood, sweat or tears.

I wonder if it will ever change. I hope it does, but even hope has been co-opted by these elites, and may just be yet another mechanism by which we are convinced to carry on playing the game always looking to the future when "things will get better" and the "meek shall inherit the earth".

[tavalon]

51. Okay, this I can get behind

But this is what I've always called LIHOP but yeah, there's hardly a difference other than this scenario is far easier to pull of than the elaborate MIHOP theories I've heard proposed.

[rman]

77. Simple MIHOP, there's a precedent

Once you accept that the government and various government agencies were involved, does it not stand to reason that the chance of success (pulling it of -and- covering it up) is far greater if they'd do it themselves rather then letting a gang of muslims do the operation?

Once you accept that it was a full blown inside job - a false-flag operation - then it's not hard to imagine that it involved some trickery with the airplanes. Not holograms, not mysterious pods, not missiles (not in case of the WTC anyway), but something to eliminate much of the hassle involved in having an airplane full of passengers be piloted into the buildings. Elaborate? Maybe, but not so elaborate that it has not been contemplated a least once before, at the highest levels of government:
Operations Northwoods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

At any rate, remote controlled planes are not nearly as elaborate as some of the elaborate MIHOP theories that are proposed.

[EFerrari]

27. It's not what people know but, what they can handle knowing. nt

[mopaul]

30. we're still debating Kennedy's murder 43 yrs. later, some folks never will

some will never ever even allow themselves to consider the true sininster story behind that awful day, nine eleven.

[chimpymustgo]

37. MIHOP. Just ask a few questions.

And as with JFK's murder, looks like they're gonna get away with it scot free. And the beat goes on.

[OctOct1]

38. Please!! See Loose Change and pass it on

just released 12/13
Best comprehensive explanation yet.
I have heard and seen others, but this one hits home and I have not been the same since I have seen it.
You walk away knowing MIHOP "without doubt"
I am still trying to get my brain to accept what I saw in this movie.
Here is a preview

http://tvnewslies.org/cart/view_product.php?product=LOOAAY0J8

[Balbus]

39. Yeah, and I think Diebold was in on it, too!!

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cooley Hurd]

43. The north wall of the north tower (WTC1) fell on it...

...and started fires that burned thru the entire bottom floors (accelerated by diesel fuel stored in the building to power the generators that keep the Emergency Management center lit). I have video (not digitized, sorry) of the live MSNBC feed that clearly shows the north wall of WTC1 falling on WTC7. Here are stills from my video (that I taped live on 9/11):

This is the very second the north tower started to collapse...


In this still, you can see the north wall of WTC1 falling almost straight away, into WTC7...


This still is approximately 2 seconds after the one above...


This still is from about 2 seconds after my previous still (you can see pretty clearly that WTC1's north wall hit WTC7)...

This pic is an aerial view of the WTC complex after the attacks, which shows the swath WTC1's north wall cut thru WTC6 and into WTC7.


A closeup of the view above:


Please understand that I'm not trying to discount MIHOP, but in the case of WTC7, I saw the north wall of WTC1 hit WTC7...

[dailykoff]

73. That sounds plausible, but there are a couple of problems:

1) Building 6, which stood between Tower 1 and Building 7, was damaged by debris but did not collapse, and had to be demolished later.

2) While Building 7 was probably damaged by debris, as were most buildings in the vicinity, there's no evidence except anecdotal that it sustained serious structural damage, certainly not catastrophic structural damage.

[Cooley Hurd]

79. Look at my last pic again - WTC6 was crushed where...

...the north wall fell on it (leaving the western portion of the building still standing).

In regards to your #2, look again at the sequence of pictures - the north wall very clearly hit WTC7. As far as "anecdotal" evidence as to the damage caused by WTC1's north wall falling on the south wall of WTC7, there were literally THOUSANDS of people who witnessed the event, SAW the damage to the lower floors of the south wall of WTC7, and watched it burn from 10 am to 4 pm, when it finally came down (that's 6 hours of fire).

Nonetheless, welcome to DU, dailykoff!:hi:

[LARED]

75. The building did not just drop perfectly at all four corners

See here for a pretty good review of the collapse

[Doctor_J]

44. If LIHOP or MIHOP were ever proved

a really, really big civil war would break out the next day. would be bad.

[Solomon]

45. Exactly. Which is why no "commission" will ever tell the truth.

[Tigress DEM]

58. We could scuttle the Chimperator and his henchmonkeys and be done with it.

If we get evidence together and we can legally wrap these bastards up, we can avoid civil war. We don't hate each other for the most part, we hate being lied to and screwed against our will so much that our founding fathers who were probably as diverse as people could be in that time, came together and said "STOP THIS SHIT" "NO MORE" "Let's find a better way."

And they did and it's up to US to keep it going. Harder job in my opinion.

[bonito]

46. This is a bit chilling,

About those explosives that were stolen reportedly from a warehouse owned by Chris Cherry. He works for Sandia national labs. Link http://www.roswell-record.com/archives/022202/news07.html

[progressoid]

47. A full frontal lobotomy

[TNOE]

49. You are right

and I've been saying this for years - ALL that needs to be done is for people to realize the truth about 9/11 and we'd have a whole new system of government - sounds easy, but so many refuse to even contemplate the idea. I guess the truth is just going to come out in a trickle effect and I wonder if the whole truth will ever be widely known.

I firmly believe that the truth will have its day and find the light, hopefully one day very soon. Thanks for posting this - because 9/11 is the bottom line. This administration murdered its own citizens for political and financial gain.

Don't forget who was in charge of security at the WTC - not a coincidence that it was Marvin Bush.

[mikelgb]

57. your Avatar should tell you...

the official story of 9/11 will never change.

[TNOE]

64. Not necessarily - things change

mainly now we have the internet and that may be this administration's downfall - something they hadn't considered. No doubt they thought they would easily get away with it - but I think people are smarter and more evolved. I'm just not so sure they won't be found out.

Welcome to DU :hi:

[Lyle]

55. Nail on the head.

9/11 IS the issue. I agree. We must ask how much of what has happened SINCE 9/11 could have happened WITHOUT 9/11. Add to that the PNAC stuff, Cheney's secret energy meetings, the "Patriot" Act, etc...and the you get to see the bigger picture.

I agree the CIA is al qaeda. The idea goes something like this: create the boogeyman. Then formulate policy around fighting the boogeymen you created. It is sort of like those misquided firemen who set fires so they can put them out.

[glitch]

65. It's called a protection racket. - probably the second oldest profession

maybe it ties with first.

[pauldp]

66. Great analogy! n/t

[Slit Skirt]

56. Bravo....it is about time someone started talking about the links

they don't want to admit the towers had explosives...that would mean a security breach and point fingers at Marvin Bush

they don't want to talk about John O'Neil's investigation into Al Queida...that would point to obstruction of justice at Louis Freeh

they don't want to ungag Sibel Edmunds...that would uncover the shadow government

they don't want to talk about money...that would show the Carlyle Group making a killing

What they really don't want to talk about is taking away our freedoms, our right to demand full disclosure, spying on us to determine who to take away if they can chip enough away from the constitution,

what did 9/11 give us....

Afghanistan and a pipeline for oil by Unocal (which was seeking to do this prior to 9.11) Karzid use to be a business consultant for Unocal.....oh gee what a coincidence

Iraq and oil and an opportunity for military industrial complex to make millions

Patriot Act and all of its violations of civil liberties

what 9/11 gave us was the opportunity for an administration possessed with corruption and greed to justify any damn thing they want to do as long as they keep Americans frightened

oh by the way...don't forget tamaflu....Rumsfeld's moneyline and the secret agency they want to create to develop it....I wouldn't trust that poisen in a million years......no telling what the hell they are going to put in that.

the problem with this is it is the blue pill or the red pill.....if you open this door and walk through...and you realize what occurred....you will never be the same again..........Denial...Americans are good at it

but if we deny this....we lose our country

[rman]

59. Actually this has been discussed at length for several years now....

in the 9/11 forum in the DU basement.

Which is why even many DU-ers do not know about it.


But hey, why draw attention to such a fringe issue?

:sarcasm:

[Slit Skirt]

60. yeah....

i love the basement crap...

why save our nation?

[TNOE]

62. So off to the basement we go

well better than in the old days I guess where computer viruses were sent at the mere mention - by SOMEBODY watching who didn't like the discussion.

[MellowOne]

68. It's truly sad

To live in a country where our greatest threat is our president.

[Warren Stupidity]

69. I just refer to it all as 'what a coincidence'.

As far as I am concerned that glaring statement in the PNAC documents about the need for another pearl harbor to get the ball rolling was enough to settle the debate. For me that was nearly five years ago. All that has transpired since has simply confirmed my belief that 9-11 was way too convenient.

Clinton rejects the '98 PNAC topple saddam letter. The PNAC plan is set in motion. Gore cannot be allowed to win in '00 so an election is stolen. 9-11 happens. PNAC has its pearl harbor. On to Iraq! It all fits. There are no loose ends. It can happen here. It already has.

[greiner3]

70. 4 + years later;

And the general population are still quaking in their boots. At least we don't have the damned colors changing weekly anymore.

[we can do it]

74. I Agree - and Here's Another Recomendation

[stickdog]

76. My, oh, MIHOP.

Sometimes I think they could have crashed Wellstone's plane into Howard Dean's secret meeting with Wes Clark and most people still wouldn't have raised an eyebrow.