My latest theory about the hyper religious

[renie408]

I was pondering this early this morning and reminded of it in the post about the theory of gravity.

I think that the religious right is getting freaky about teaching creation and intelligent design in schools because they can see that science is horning in on God's territory. Most people tell you that religion is for the things science can't explain. The inexplicable stuff. Well, one hundred years ago, religion had a lot more turf. And at the rate science is going; in another hundred years, there isn't going to be a whole left for God.

So the professionally religious are getting nervous. It is generally held that America is falling behind in teaching the sciences and if they can get creationism into the schools, we will fall exponentially farther behind. And we'll need the Franklin Grahams of the world even more.

It's a Science vs. Religion turf war. And Religion is trying to cheat.




**Let me say that I understand that only SOME of Religion is trying to cheat. A loud and obnoxious fringe.**

[Richard D]

1. Respectfully

IMHO, the idea of God is what needs to change, spiritualize so to speak. For those of us who do spiritual practice, the experience of the Divine is not tied into religious beliefs. Belief, by it's very nature cannot stand up to science. However, when one sits in deep meditation, what one experiences is beyond words, beyond theory, beyond philosophy, and is not way contradicted by science. If anything the awe that real science can inspire only furthers the experience of Life.

[renie408]

9. I also respectfully disagree in part

Belief can easily withstand science. Hands down, any day of the week. Including Sunday. Heck, maybe twice on Sunday. True belief is undefeatable precisely because it relies on no proof whatsoever. Or is that what you mean? That belief cannot exist in the face of proof or science? Because if you can PROVE it, it does not require BELIEF...it just is.

Also, an atheist can experience the serenity, harmony and...joy? of meditation. I get the feeling you describe when I meditate. Or even sometimes when I sit on my back porch and watch the sunset over our back pasture. For me, it is utter wonder at the complexity and interwovenness of the world.

[Richard D]

16. I've been called a Taoist

Belief simply is not needed for experience. I would say that your experience is spiritual. You don't need to call it by any name, it just is. In my belief (well, there it is), the greatest of the founders of what have become religions were not religious. Jesus was not a christian, Buddha not a Buddist, etc. They were simple people who broke through the day-to-day existance we call reality and had a deep experience of what exists beyond the mind. I would guess that if you had the opportunity to discuss evolution, partical physics, quantum dynamics or any aspect of science with those people, they would listen in rapt attention and understand that it is all part of the miracle that we live in.

It's only when the belief gets catagorized and structured that it can be threatened by science. The anthorpomorphization of God is a way for people who have never experienced anything outside of this reality to create structure and meaning and rules. For example, if you look at the words of Jesus, he was totally against the basic religious structures of his time (and would no doubt be horrified by modern christianity). And he spoke of God as Love as being the highest level of understanding (and probably experience as well).

[renie408]

18. I do not believe in a sentient "god" and therefore call myself

an atheist. But I think I am an atheist in a Buddhist sort of way. I am content with what I don't know and yet equally content to fill in the gaps if given a chance. Does that make sense? I think that there is probably some sort of connecting 'something' that exists on a level we are as yet incapable of quantifying. But that is as close as I can get to a 'god'.

Ergo: atheist.

[Richard D]

19. Makes perfect sense.

Not trying to offend, but in a way, you are closer to that thing people call God than most believers.

[renie408]

20. No offense taken

I don't 'mind' god, I just can't make myself believe in the concept. I actually find myself adhering to strictly Christian principles more than a lot of the people around me who call themselves Christians. They are consistently amazed that my family does not believe in god. But even a non-Christian can read the New Testament and admire Jesus and want to emulate him. Just without all the 'he's the son of god' stuff.

I have wandered around reading philosophy and the Bible and studying Buddhism and have cobbled together a set of spiritual beliefs that work for me.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

2. Religion vs. Science

is about the oldest war in the world, I guess.

[jackthesprat]

3. Don't agree about uniqueness of science/religion conflict.

Think it has more to do with Bush's hatred of life and desire for a neo-fascist state: Mussolini gave autonomy to the Church.

[Zynx]

28. Speaking of Mussolini, I've never been clear on something...

Was Mussolini a Catholic or not? I've never really gotten a good handle on this one since I know comparatively little about Mussolini.

[MountainLaurel]

4. You're right on

Go out to your library now and check out Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan. This is exactly what this book talks about. Even though it was written in the 1990s, it is extremely prescient about the rise of the Religious Reich and the continuing battle against science.

BTW, "professionally religious" -- GREAT term. :rofl:

[MrModerate]

5. Well, partially . . .

But I think what they're seeing is the situation in Europe, where religion is becoming increasingly irrelevant -- except among immigrants from Islamic countries, who are (in the manner of many immigrant peoples) becoming more dependent upon their original religion precisely because they're trying to make their way in a culture that doesn't entirely share their values.

Science has been only part of the reason for Europe's increasing disinterest in religion, but it's a BIG part -- and zealots in the US see it as a very scary, potential future.

Which they must resist at all costs.

[jackthesprat]

7. Europe had and "Enlightenment."

United States never has.

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. This phrase made me think --

"...immigrants from Islamic countries, who are (in the manner of many immigrant peoples) becoming more dependent upon their original religion precisely because they're trying to make their way in a culture that doesn't entirely share their values..."

Might that, rather than the protections in the constitution, be the reason this is such a religion soaked nation? We are almost all immigrants, and one of the primary ways communities formed was around religious institutions.

It doesn't change the dynamic of your conjecture - except to amplify it. Mainstream religious institutions have been withering for decades because their adherants are settled. But there are two communities that are not - immigrant Hispanics and the evangelicals, who draw strongly on the internally displaced, the lower quarter of the economic ladder.

[renie408]

15. Very good observation

I have oftentimes wondered WHY we are so religious here. I figured that it was because we were a fairly 'young' country and up until recently, people were too busy busting their asses to pioneer, conquer, build, etc to ponder the validity of religion.

But your extension of the previously stated theory is a lot more elegant.

[MrModerate]

24. But if I look at the numbers correctly . . .

Religious Hispanics have not fallen off the deep end into fanaticism, and still tend to vote in their own economic best interests (i.e., democratic/moderate).

By "internally displaced," do you mean what I think you mean, as in "not necessarily members of the reality-based community?"

With regard to the economic ladder, there seem to be an awful lot of well heeled religious righties these days -- which I think is a result of patient and well supported recruitment of these folks from early adulthood, by hard-working activists, now maturing into a class of well-to-do born-agains.

With regard to the lower portion of the ladder, I think you're probably onto something, in that they may well feel the same sorts of things a new immigrant to Europe feels -- uncertainty, anxiety, and alienation, all of which can be played upon by the unscrupulous.

[Mountainman]

6. I think that their whole belief system has the potential to fall apart if

scientific research and findings become well known. I remember when I was a kid in Catholic school I was told not to try to understand things the Church taught that did not make sense to me but to take it on faith that the things they said were true. What we could not understand were mysteries and we should leave it go at that. Now that is a very comfortable way to live because you are saved the risk of thinking for yourself. When facts are held up to your face that refute what you take on faith it has the effect of shaking you to your core. You have to either reject your faith or the facts.

Fundies are faced with this dilemma. Personally I threw out all I was taught and rebuilt my thinking on my own investigations.

On edit, I think there are things that science cannot explain. I do believe in the intervention of a higher power or maybe the power of positive thinking but I have many experiences that I cannot understand and I doubt that any science can explain them either.

[Barak And Roll]

8. Right on...

These people has such little faith they think that if the Bible isn't 100 percent right then God doesn't exist. Science and religion can and should co-exist; Augustine warned early Christians to not take the word of the Bible over their own observations. Intelligent Design advocates know that they can't win in the labs and can't debate with people who know things so they prey on the ignorance of the average American to push an unqualified theory into the public schools. But it doesn't stop there; if they can inforce an intellectual relativism on evolution, they'll go after geology next, then the Big Bang and so on until science as we know it is nothing but complete my-theory-is-as-good-as-yours relativism. Let's hear it for the neo-dark ages!

[savemefromdumbya]

10. Religion mean power in all countries

history of religion = power. So you find that religion is abused to people's ends? Pity.

[gkhouston]

11. actually, I think a lot of politicians have skin in the game

not because it's science vs. religion so much as critical thinking vs. non-critical thinking. The big thing about science is that it's supposed to be based on critical thinking: theories are proposed and discussed, evidence is presented, and old ideas can be discarded in favor of new ones in the light of new developments. Not only is critical thinking permissible in science, it's essential. Depending on your flavor of religion, open discussion and independent thinking may be allowed or encouraged, but for some denominations it's ridiculed and downright dangerous.

Pretend for the moment that you're a politician of the unscrupulous variety. Which sort of culture would you prefer to have your constituents educated in -- one that inculcates critical thinking or one that encourages blind obedience to an authority figure whose actions are inscrutable?

[renie408]

12. Do they think like that?

I mean, do you think they sit around saying, "We have to discourage the development of critical thinking skills. HEY!!! Let's push teaching creationism in schools!!"

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. Not in those words.

But they have adopted the Madison Avenue model of selling their product.

"We gotta get them where they live. It's gotta hit 'em in the gut, pull at the heartstrings."

Emotional appeals, not intellectual appeals. They work better.

[BillZBubb]

17. Actually, they do.

Of course it isn't as blatant as that. The problem is, religious nuts have no critical thinking skills to begin with. Therefore, they can easily equate creationism, intelligent design, and evolution as "scientific".

Having invested no mental effort in getting to the truth, they can zealously push their religious crap as "science". Being zealots, they expect everyone else to bow to their received knowledge.

Fundamentalists have to destroy or cast doubt on any scientific theory that contradicts their interpretation of the Bible. They will use any means at their disposal to do so--including attacking the attainment of knowledge. It's no surprise a clueless boob like Bush is their hero.

[tsuki]

21. I personally think fundies are stupid, and as stupid people are, they

object to anything they don't understand and contribute it to superstition.

And being stupid, they have a vast respect for their "intelligence." They don't like to be shown up with uh, er, facts.

They want everyone to be more stupid than they are, then they can claim they are in the 2%.

[Pepperbelly]

22. I do not think that is the case at all.

You are missing what's most important in the theocrats point of view: evolution invalidates the Bible.

How so?

Very simple. Without the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve, there IS no original sin and without original sin, there is no need for redemption or salvation.

IOW, all are born to a state of grace.

That is completely incompatible with the theology of many religions. Thus, it cannot be true or their entire belief system is built upon a deeply flawed foundation.

That is what this is about from THEIR P.O.V.

[renie408]

23. I think that falls under the...

Science vs. Religion turf war thing.

[Pepperbelly]

25. not at all ...

The alleged turf war is coincidental to the real conflict ... the fundamentalists being faced with the utter loss of their faith. It's not turf, it is survival.

[xchrom]

26. they are afraid of the future -- and that fear has turned

them to superstition and hate.

it's a knee jerk reaction when the masses feel that the cornerstones of society{i.e. government, science, business} have let them down and left them to fend for themselves.

it becomes especially noticeable during milleniums.

these people are frightened, unreasoning fools who want the rest of us to go over the cliff with them.

[AntiFascist]

27. What I don't understand is....

why is Religion even being discussed together with Science? I could understand this maybe in the Middle Ages, but we have made so much progress utilizing Science since then that the point should be moot. I really wonder about the crazed theories of Bush and his following! If they want to talk about supporting Religion in schools then discuss it in the context of promoting Religious Studies programs, but please leave it out of the Science Dept!

[PurityOfEssence]

29. hey, when you're running the ultimate fuck-job fear-based scam,

you don't want any reality-based idiots messing with your hustle.

Many people actually do believe. Many others just go along out of cowardice.

Many practitioners of those dark and murky arts do to, but there are so many hucksters and snake-oil salesmen that the good can't be any more than just a sizeable minority.

Fear of uncertainty is the key. As the world changes with ever greater acceleration, those barely able to deal with anything will cling to the promise of fantasies. Fundamentalism will increase. Hatred of uncertainty will REALLY increase. Being what we are, there will be many who will take advantage of this.

See ya in the not-so-funny papers...