I think we need to face facts.

[MoonRiver]

The rightwing, including our corporate media, wants Dean to be the Dem nominee. Of course they would prefer even more unelectable Dem candidates than Dean, but, heck, they'll go with the one that's on a temporary roll.

It is truly pathetic that we blithly except this myth about Dean's incinvibility of getting the nomination. Numerous DUers have likened recent polls giving Dean the lead to virtual push pull polls. I find their points credible. The result of promoting Dean by the rightwing corporate powers that wannabe is to ensure a Democratic loser in the 2004 presidential candidacy.

WAKE-UP before it is way too late, Democrats. We are being bamboozled BIG TIME by corporate interests. Yes, Dean gained his initial momentum by opposing the illegal and criminal invasion of a sovereign country which was no immediate or direct threat to US. However, he is seen as incredibly vulnerable by repukes and as such is being supported (by them). This is Karl Rove Political Attack Tactics 101!

:argh:

[Wonk]

1. Ow.

"It is truly pathetic that we blithly except this myth about Dean's incinvibility of getting the nomination."

:hurts:

[NicoleM]

2. There are only two ways for us

to avoid Karl Rove Attack Tactics 101:

1. Nominate a republican.

2. Don't nominate anybody.

Karl Rove doesn't decide who gets my vote. I do.

[MoonRiver]

5. "nominate a republican" "don't nominate anybody"

Where's THAT coming from?????

[NicoleM]

9. Those are the only two ways

we are going to avoid the Wrath of the Rove Machine. I assume we don't want to do either of those things. I assume we aren't going to do either of those things. Therefore I don't see what all the handwringing about Karl Rove is about. No matter who we put up against *, Rove is still going to lie and cheat and steal to try to beat us.

[MoonRiver]

14. Clark isn't a Republican. Kerry isn't a Republican. Kucinich isn't...

...

Is Dean the only Democrat runing in the Democratic primary?

[NicoleM]

15. No.

Did I say that?

[MoonRiver]

27. That was the way I interpreted your post above about

the only way to beat *. I may have misinterpreted what you meant.

[NicoleM]

30. You did.

But it's understandable given the way things are around here lately.

[catherineD]

117. Look at left-center-right post and Clark is to left of Dean

according to a UK analysis of each of the candidates votes, actions, and positions.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mikehiggins]

4. Say, Saywhat? Who are you talking to?

The people who are not going to support Dean are not going to change their minds anytime soon, and the Dean supporters are not going to stray one millimeter from their course.

So who is it that this post will affect?

Everything has been said. Let it go and lets go to work on getting people out to the polls. The talk has all been talked, now lets see what the voters think.

[MoonRiver]

10. My point is that Dean is in trouble in a general election.

I think several candidates (Clark's obviously my favorite) are more viable candidates. I am truly afraid of a Dean nomination based upon push polls by rightwing corporate factions that know he is hugely vulnerable.

[stickdog]

19. What push polls? The ones that ask, "Whom do you support?"

Or are there others I don't know about?

[MoonRiver]

24. Please look at #23. I replied to the wrong post!

;(

[artr2]

78. This is just more smoke

Have you been to his web site? - have you read his position papers? - There is a reason that Dean is the "front-runner" and it's not the friggin media.

[killbotfactory]

6. No.

The reason Dean is surging to the lead is hard work and being a leader for a party that has sorely lacked it in recent years. Dean's in the lead despite the media, not because of it.

[MoonRiver]

23. Here's a link to one

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=21879

[poskonig]

7. You are cognizant of Clark's past, no?

In addition, calling Dean's supporters who have been working for months on his campaign a bunch of dupes isn't going to get anyone to switch.

If having Dean attacked 24/7 by the media for being a McGovern and Mondale is "support," I'm not certain the word retains any meaning.

Do the footwork first and you'll become the story later. Crybabying about the media is a strategy for losers.

[wanderingbear]

8. You need to throw out that unelectable concept

All the old rules no longer apply..This in now a head to head contest between the Left side of the Nation and the Right side of the Nation..The lines are already drawen in the sand.. No one is going to switch sides to the republicans just because they dont like the nominated canidate.. Right now the ones the Democrats have to face is the Greens and how many they may loose to the Greens if the right canidate isnt nominated.

[Bill of Rights]

62. Remember the "old rules don't apply"

to the old ideas about the stock market. The rules don't apply because it is a new world and the stock market will reach 36,000.

The old rules STILL apply.

[WiseMen]

72. This is total fantasy. Only 5-10 year Ideological Movement

could change the FUNDAMENTALS OF THE AMERICAN POLITICAL DYNAMIC

[stinkeefresh]

11. In my opinion, Bush is going to be trounced.

he couldn't even win before he demonstrated to the world what an ass he is. And that was vs a boring opponent and with full media compliance. How many votes you think he's picked up in the last few years?

All this "Bush is a formiddable foe" is laughable. The ONLY things he has going for him is cheating and his pundit army. That isn't going to be enough. He isn't Reagan!

Yeah, Dean's going to be attacked. So would Clark. The difference is, Dean's demonstrated that he knows how to fight back- hard.

I almost wish we'd nominate Kucinich, because ANY DEM can beat this ass. (But I don't actually want a radical in the WH anymore, even a heroic radical I agree with.)

12. the future is unwritten

:dem:

[deutsey]

13. As someone who has been volunteering with the Dean campaign

for a while, I have to say I think you're wrong about the mainstream media liking Dean. They pretty much dismissed him until the first time he raised an extraordinary amount of money in a short time via the Web. Then suddenly he was all over the media and taken more seriously. Says something really sad about our media, but I don't see a conspiracy to promote Dean over other candidates. I'd bet you if any of the others were to do some phenomenal fundraising thing that flexed their political muscle, the media would take note of that too.

The Progressive wrote about how the media were "ganging up" on Dean:

http://www.progressive.org/sept03/rc0903.html

Regarding the claim about the rightwing wanting Dean because he's unelectable, I just don't see that either. I base this mainly on this memo:

http://www.moore-info.com/Poll_Updates/2004%20Election%20%20Why%20Dean%20can%20win%20Sept%2003.htm

but also on the recent instances where Bush officials have come to Vermont or spoken against Dean in the media, basically campaigning against him already.

[Jackhammer Jesus]

16. The GOP wants him to be the nominee so badly because they're afraid of him

Or at least some of his supporters have fooled themselves into thinking that.

They're giddy at the prospect of a Dean-Bush GE because they know Dean will annhilate W.

On a related note, up is down and black is white.

[stickdog]

17. That makes no sense. Dean attacks Bush mercilessly.

Bush has been given a free ride by the corporate media and his Dem opposition for three years. This free ride accounts for his otherwise unexplainable popularity. Do you think Bush & Rove like Dean's constant attacks?

Why is Dean unelectable? Because he attacks Bush loudly and decisively? Because he tells the truth bluntly? Because you say so?

[Scott Lee]

26. In fact NO other Dem candidate has attacked Bushhole with the

ferocity Dean has. Even Kerry and his F bomb didn't come close.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

99. No, the other candidates have been MORE anti-Bush!

Oh wait, no they haven't.

Never mind.

[MaineDem]

18. I tend to agree with you

I've been the brunt of some of Andy Card's dirty tricks and I put nothing past that group of thugs.

I think they fear a Clark, Kerry, even an Edwards opponent. I don't think they fear Dean. It's not a pleasant thought, thinking the other side is manipulating us, but I fear it's happening.

Let me say that although Dean is not my choice currently whomever gets the nomination will have my support, my time, and my vote.

[MoonRiver]

21. Tom The Exterminator DeLay ADMITTED as much this weekend!

They're playing with our minds, saying please throw me in that briar patch, thinking we'll think they mean please don't throw me in that briar patch. We have to be savvy about all this. Dean has attacked *bush (and rightly so) on an issue about which Dean has no experience (just straight up common sense like many of US). Clark criticized * on Iraq and the "war on terra", but Clark has mega experience in this area. Kerry, unfortunately, went along with the BFEE on Iraq, but at least he has some background that gives him credibility against the inevitable assaults against a Dem candidate's "wartime security" know-how.

[Myra]

74. I'm so glad General Clark isn't afraid of taking on The Exterminator.

'Cause he's the Big Bad.

[maddezmom]

76. that press release had me cracking up

and the fund raiser that insued was great, too.

[Hoppin_Mad]

20. LOL ! -eom-

[Jack_Dawson]

25. You are correct, Sir

[LuminousX]

22. Thanks for saying my personal analysis of the candidates is worthless

I shall forever turn all my decision making to 'those who know best.'

[RetroLounge]

28. Poop

:boring:

[BootinUp]

29. Relax

We're still in the race. We need to see what the campaigns do now that race is coming around the last turn. And I am not changing my DU account name!

[MoonRiver]

31. Hooray, that you're not changing your account name!

My avitar stays as well! :kick: for Clark!

[oasis]

32. Reality is beggining to kick in. "Who can best beat Bush?"

[MGKrebs]

33. You don't give the 'Pubs enough credit.

Actually what is happening is that they are SAYING they want Dean, so that we will get scared of running him, and we'll end up with someone they REALLY want (which is a secret).

You are falling into their trap!! Wake up!! It is too obvious!!

I am kinda kidding, but it is somewhat true. The 'Pubs would love for us to not have a strong candidate that dominates the primaries. They would love it if several candidates stay alive all through the primaries, whacking away at each other and spending all their money. Then we get to the convention with not much of a consensus and a lot of bitterness.

I don't think they really care who gets the Dem nomination, but they would like ANY nominee to not have a strong consensus.

I am not implying that anyone should base their support strictly on "consensus" at this point. Hopefully, that will happen soon enough...with whatever candidate emerges. At the same time, I don't think we should base our decision on what we think the rumors of Karl Rove's plan are either. And even if this IS Rove's plan, so what? We'll kick his ass anyway.

[bowens43]

34. I see Clark as being more unelectable then Dean.

I know a lot Democrats, me included , who will vote third party or sit home on election day if Clark has the top spot on the ticket. Clark may be able to bring in a few Republican votes (after all, he has a history of supporting republicans and their causes) but he will surely lose a lot of votes on the left side of the party.

[MoonRiver]

35. He will get a HUGE number of Indy and military votes.

I think these groups will more than offset the loss from those who would rather see * in office than a Democrat with 'General' before his name

edited for a typo.

[bowens43]

38. So we elect a product of 30 years of military indoctrination

simply to beat bush? That's really pathetic. Clark has NO experience and no verifiable history of supporting anyone but republicans ( including the current administration) and no verifiable history of supporting Democratic causes , yet because people think (mistakenly) that he is more likely to beat bush then the other candidates they are willing to hand over the leadership of the party and the country to a fucking general! I'm flabbergasted. It's no wonder the Greens are growing and the young people prefer anarchy to the Democratic party.

[Jack_Dawson]

40. Loser mentality will kill us

Just so you know

[bowens43]

44. This has nothing to do with 'Loser mentality'

I'm sure we'll win and Dean, Kerry or Gephardt will make a fine President. I just think it would be better to win with someone with a whole lot less time in the military and a whole lot more time as a Democrat. I'm not willing to sell out the party for a win.

[Jack_Dawson]

46. Generals can't be partisan

C'mon...don't be so naive. He voted for Clinton twice and Gore. Works for me.

[Old and In the Way]

47. No one could reform the Pentagon better than Wes Clark, IMHO.

Being a 4 star gives him unique credibility and leverage with the MIC. I'm listening to him carefully and I have no concerns that he is going to take us radically right...in fact, he seems downright liberal on many issues.

Anyway, I'm hangin' for Kerry, but I'll be happy with anyone of the top tier candidates who can win the nomination...I wish we could close out the primaries tomorrow and get on with the general election.

[drfemoe]

79. Clark's position paper

regarding the 1-3 Trillion Dollars that the pentagon let go missing would be of interest to me. If pentagon reform is big on his list, he should have a position paper? What if some of that $$ went to DARPA (et al)? And Clark sold 'products' to DARPA (et al)? Can you explain how that reform scenario might look?

Or if you have a link to his PP regarding the pentagon's lost money, or his pentagon reform program, please pass them along.

[Jack_Dawson]

36. So we should rally around Dean, but not Clark?

No wonder repukes keep kicking our asses. We deserve it.

[MoonRiver]

37. Agreed.

I will definitely rally round Dean if he gets the nomination (which I desperately hope he doesn't), but apparently Clark's being at least 1,000 times better than the fascist pig illegally occupying the People's White House is not good enough for some!

[bowens43]

42. I haven't seen any evidence to support your supposition

that Clark is 1000 times better then bush. I haven't seen evidence to supports Clark actually believing what he says. The only thing we can verify is that up until very recently , Clark supported Republicans, including the bushies. You're right, Clark isn't good enough for some of us. I've seen too many politicians lie there way into office to take anyones word for anything. Now, if by some twist of fate, he does get the nomination and he is able to beat bush , I'll give him the benifit of the doubt and if he proves himself to actually be a Democrat, I'll admit that I was wrong. But I can't vote him.

[Jack_Dawson]

45. Voting for Clinton, Clinton and Gore works for me

Sometimes it takes people a little longer to figure it out". I'm comfortable w/ his Democratic credentials.

[The Magistrate]

48. The 'Lefter Than Thou,' Sir

Are the secret weapon of the reactionaries, and a most important key to their victories. Reactionaries count on the splintering of the left caused by those who insist on purity and "whole hog" positions being unwilling to compromise in pragmatic calculation, and making a moral fetish of ignoring the practical realities of politics. They are, unfortunately, seldom disappointed in that expectation.

[oasis]

43. Who's to question the impeccable judgement of Al Gore?

[Jerseycoa]

51. Don't be too sure

I know many, many people on the left who admire Clark as a humanitarian and internationalist, and for his stand on affirmative action and civil rights. And they will vote for him.

[ResistTheCoup]

53. Great, so ABB is only if Dean gets the nomination?

The left has got nowhere else to go but ABB.

But thanks for sharing that you and your like-minded Dem friends are willing to help Bush win if your candidate doesn't get the nomination.

:grr:

[ibegurpard]

39. I'm always one for facing facts.

You haven't given me any however. Sorry, it's all just your opinion.

[MoonRiver]

41. Most polls show Clark having a better chance of beating * than Dean.

If he were the actual Dem candidate I suspect (my opinion of course) that * wouldn't have a chance.

[tedoll78]

49. Riiiiiight..

Show me some evidence that these are push polls. It's one thing to claim it, and it's another to claim it along with evidence. Any good links? Blaming the media is a cop-out for candidates who have not run as good a campaign as Dean has. Without the media to blame, the candidates might actually have to take the blame themselves for their own campaigns' mediocrity. Ouch.

[MoonRiver]

50. Look at post #23 of this thread

[Padraig18]

52. When you post some facts, I'll gladly 'face them'

This is nothing but your opinion, my friend. :shrug:

[ResistTheCoup]

54. Funny how all the Dean supporters live and die by the poll

numbers except those that show Bush trouncing Dean in the general election.

I've said repeatedly that I am ABB and will support whoever gets the Dem. nom. but a number of posters here on this thread say they plan on sitting out/not voting if Clark were to get the nomination.

I'd like to see some Dean supporters take issue with that. Are you really ABB or not?

[Padraig18]

55. I'll take issue with it.

I have said repeatedly that I am ABB, as are the VAST majority of Dean supporters. I will support *whoever* gets our party's nomination.

[MoonRiver]

57. I hope what you're saying is correct, but check out some of the posts

on this thread, which talk about voting 3rd party or staying home if Clark gets the nod.

[Padraig18]

59. By the same token

Check out the number of posts from Clark supporters in the last month saying that there is no way they'll vote for Dean. It's an extremely small, but extremely mouthy bunch of malcontents in both camps. :shrug:

[MoonRiver]

60. Well, for the record I'll vote for Dean or any Dem that gets the nom

Our enemy is not in the Dem party.

[Padraig18]

61. Exactly

Our enemy is that group of crypto-fascists currently squatting in the People's House; I wish more people would remember that.

[MoonRiver]

69. But I still think Clark has the best chance of beating the *

[horsesense]

122. we can win only if we all support the candidate

We all agree that bush is a horror show. He's terrible at being president, but good at running for the post. Let'e each support our own guys in the primary, but only a fool would waste his vote in the GE.

[MoonRiver]

56. Yeah, I think they have a serious case of selective attention.

They are really ABABD (anybody but anybody but dean).

[CWebster]

58. Facts?

someone said something about facts? Or, is that just a pout?

[Myra]

63. If Koppel's antics in the last debate didn't make it clear

That Dean is the media's choice, what will?

[Cheswick2.0]

64. well I think that is great!

If Dean is the media's choice I would say for once they got something right. Good for them!

[MoonRiver]

65. And I say, no offense, but

none are so blind as those who refuse to see

[Myra]

66. Wow...stunning self-denial

Can't assimilate Koppel's actions into consciousness so conclude
that media is embarking on public service campaign for
first time in years.

Stunning self-denial.

[MoonRiver]

68. Yep, this defies the #1 rule of psychology, that

the greatest predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

[Scoopie]

67. And Dean will lose

Period.
New England painted liberal in the South.
Liberal painted conservative in BLUE states.
God, you guys are in for a whippin'.
Get it together.
Why Clark?
He's smart, he's pretty (for those Survivor voters), he's got POSITION PAPERS AND NOT RHETORIC (OK, that's a big one for me), I trust him, he cares. What's not to like?
Yeah... and I only THOUGHT I was ABB, until I met his mirror image on the alleged "left."
Come on, you guys! Give the MIDDLE someone we can vote for. Hello? Are you listening? The world is NOT black and white! The grays have it and they won't vote for the former governor of Vermont.

[mourningdove92]

70. A RW talk show host, sitting in for O'Reilly,

Judge Napoliano or something like that, was trying to force through an argument today, that Hillary will end up as Dean's VP. His reasoning??? Well, this RW genius is convinced that Hillary and Bill want the dems to lose in 2004,that they believe Dean will lose the election, and this will put Hillary in like flint for 2008.
What a fantasy world the Right wingers live in. Dean and Hillary?????
I don't theeeenk so.
:wtf:

[Scoopie]

71. Hillary wouldn't spit on Dean

if he was on fire.
How stupid.

[MoonRiver]

73. I'm still hoping that she endorses Clark before the nomination.

I know she (and Bill) want to.

[edzontar]

85. Clark will lose first--to Dean!!!!

Get used to it.

[Scoopie]

100. Well, not in my state

BUT, that only proves the point: Dean supporters seem not to be about beating Bush, but about proving some unrealistic point about alleged "outsider" candidates.
This baffles me.

[Blitz]

75. The current candidates in order of electablity in the GE

In my opinion (and only my opinion):

1. Edwards
2. Kerry
3. Clark
4. Lieberman
5. Gephardt
6. Dean
7/8/9: Would only win D.C., if that. (Mosely-Braun, Kucinich, Sharpton, in that order).

I'm a bit undecided about 2,3&4. The rest, I feel pretty solid about.

[quaker bill]

77. I agree about the facing facts part

To the extent the right wing does not fear Dean, it fears even less those who are running second, third, or fourth behind him. They understand that a big part of winning an election is running an effective campaign. The obvious measure of the effectiveness of a campaign is the number of supporters attracted by it.

In the final analysis, that is the only measure that will matter.

The notion that the right-wing has anything to do with the success of the Dean campaign is flatly absurd. The right wing did not hand write 125,000 letters to uncomitted voters in Iowa and New Hampshire. I was there writing them and no right wingers were present.

The right wing has not been running anti-Clark ads or anti-Kerry ads because they feel no threat whatsoever from these candidates. These are the facts I suggest we begin to face.

[drfemoe]

80. I have an eerie

feeling that Clark would be much happier running as VP on a */Clark ticket. That is, if chaingang drops out due to his health, or has to leave the country for an extended period of time.

He at least has some experience with that kind of work. What else does chainy do besides raise money for repups, lobby for special interests and make war plans?

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bitchkitty]

83. Well thank God we have you -

to keep us safe from KKKarl!

Karl Rove Orange Alert! Be careful what you do, what you say, who you nominate. Let me know when it's safe, okay?

[edzontar]

84. Yet another version of the "same old post"

Move a few words around, change the title.

"Dean can't win."

"Rove wants Dean."

"Clark is our only hope."

"Join the Stop Dean Movement."

Keep repeating until your brain turns to mush and its liquified cells run out of your nostrils.

Merry Xmas.

[webkev]

86. good post

I cant see why others don't look at whats happening
its going to be interesting in january!

[batman]

87. actual facts - the PEOPLE want dean to be the nominee.

harsh huh?

[Scoopie]

103. What people?

Where?
Seriously. I only know ONE person who supports Dean.
And, I don't recall moving to "bubble" country.

[Raya]

112. Dean OUT-SPENDING Gephart 5 to 1 and still can convince a majority.

[Terwilliger]

88. what's funny is...

if Dean wins the nomination, any Bush supporter could simply refer to your dislike of him as reasons people should stick with Bush...

Congratulations!

[MoonRiver]

89. I've said, at least, 100 times that if Dean gets the nomination

I'll vote for him. I just believe he's a very weak candidate against *'s forces of darkness. Clark, on the other hand, could take * down with one arm tied behind his back (IMHO).

[Monte Carlo]

92. What are you talking about?

Aren't these supposed reasons arbitrary? What makes you think they wouldn't have a million reasons anyway?

[Raya]

90. Say it again, brother! Facts be known ......

Dean would be a "topic locked." Let's hope and pray (along with
brother Dean) that God gives us the grace to face the truth.

[JNelson6563]

91. I agree, we need to face facts.

Got any?

Julie

[Upfront]

93. Do need To Face Facts

The primary is over, Dean is the man. Dang, we just may have a chance to win! Go Dean!!!!!!!!!!

[Monte Carlo]

94. The primary is not over.

And I still don't know what makes Dean so special.

[Upfront]

95. Listen

Go hear Dean speak at a rally, you will understand.

[Monte Carlo]

96. I heard Nader speak as well in 2000.

He was even more blunt than Dean. He drew tens of thousands of people to his rallies to hear him speak. He had grassroots supporters around the country that turned a shoestring-budget campaign into a national campaign. Then he got 3% of the national vote.

[JNelson6563]

97. Nader is not Dean

Dean doesn't have a shoestring budget and if he wins the nom he will have the Democratic Party behind him. Not to mention the many folks who aren't members.

I know as Mem. Chair of my local board I've signed up plenty of new Democrats to the party at Dean meet-ups. It's been a great help to party building efforts.

Just my .0125

Julie

[Monte Carlo]

101. No, he's not.

It's not so much Dean's budget, it is these popular campaigns have failed in the not-too-distant past. Look at the anti-war marches just before the Iraq invasion - they did not stop the war, and I don't know if Dean's campaign can stop Bush now.

I'm worried that he WON'T have the Democratic Party behind him. You can bet that Democrats like Lieberman will get lots of air time to discuss their reservations with Dean in the general election.

[Gloria]

114. Signed up "new Democrats"? Are they really Democrats?

Heck, it's in print in the newspaper here about the possible GOP signups as Democrats for the caucuses...signups for Dean, with plenty of time to switch back to the GOP in time for the general election....

There about 30 sites on the web by GOP'ers encouraging donations to Dean...

[oasis]

106. Yes but Nader trashed both Bush AND Democrats. Dean trashes....er..um.

[oasis]

98. "we just may have a chance to win!". A "chance" yes. The best chance????

[mmonk]

102. OK everybody

come general election time, we're all going to have to pull together.

[MoonRiver]

104. Absolutely! This cannot be repeated often enough!

I will support whomever is the Dem candidate. But, dang, I just know that General Clark is the most likely one to win in 2004!

[TeacherCreature]

105. Good, let them want him

no problem for me.

[MoonRiver]

107. Psssst, you're not facing facts.

Corporate America is supporting Dean because they know he will LOSE.

[JNelson6563]

110. I asked you a question

You're big on facts, I asked you before and will ask again and again and again until I get an asnwer: Do you actually HAVE any FACTS??

Julie

[dfgrbac]

108. That's the biggest pile of hogwash yet!

The corporate mass media didn't want to even mention Dean until they had to. The USA Military Empire is trying to protect itself by getting the least damage it can from the next election. Their preference is to get Bush relected. Short of that, they want the Democrat who will do the least damage to the Military Empire. Someone in Clinton's category would do fine in a pinch, but Dean looks a little too threatening to corporate power.

Now Dennis Kucinich is a whole different ballgame! The corporate powers know the game is up if Kucinich gets elected. That's why the media cuts any news it can about him and get away with it. Ted Koppel just about told him to quit the race in the last debate. They don't want Kucinich!

All the more reason why we should vote for Dennis Kucinich! Let's stop this Corporate Military Empire while we still have a chance!

[shivaji]

109. Why Bill Clinton won't endorse Clark?

This puzzles me. They are friends form way back when from Arkansas.
Clinton promoted Clark to NATO commander. But yet it is very strange to me that Clinton has yet to endorse Clark. Iowa is only a scant month away.

My guess is the Clintons avoid being associated with losing candidates. Unless they see Clark gaining, they will stay neutral.
Seems like a catch-22 situation.

[MoonRiver]

111. Actually he has unofficially endorsed Clark. See the following link:

http://www.genclark.com/press_9-28.htm

Former presidents usually do not endorse candidates until after the primary. This is long standing protocol. However, I sincerely hope Clinton sees the current situation as serious enough to break with tradition.

[arewethereyet]

115. he's done enough to cover that

their closeness is no secret, he followed up with that note to the Milosevic trial people.

There is no question who the CLinton's like in this thing.

[Kolesar]

113. DUers should do something worthwhile instead of answering his bogus thesis

Dean is the product of a right wing media plot? Gimme a break

I cannot believe how many responses this lame thread has amassed.

[Capn Sunshine]

116. Right wing!!! LOL

Ow!!my sides!!! I can't breathe!! This is the funniest, most desperate thing I've read from Clark supporters yet!! ROTFL!

What a world where a general's supporters imply that the opponent is farther right than someone who was once a republican and worked in the defense industry making profits for the war machine that eats our children!

Really, I want to know! Is that the BEST the astroturf mill could com up with today?
LOL!!! LOL!!!!

[MoonRiver]

118. I don't know why you are implying that Clark was once

a Republican. He was independent until he declared himself to be a Democrat. Colin Powell did the same thing except he went over to the dark side. Clark is ONE OF US. I don't know how much clearer he can be about his committment to Democratic and liberal causes. Try looking at his campaign website if you're confused.

[Brian_Expat]

119. I'm voting in the primary for the candidate who I believe in

I am casting my vote for the candidate who stood up on the issues that matter most to me. That man is Howard Dean. I will support whoever the Dems nominate (with the exception of Joe Lieberman). You should do the same and stop trying to tear down fellow Democrats (whoever they are).

For one thing, it's fruitless. A large plurality of Dean's supporters are NOT traditional Democrats who will fret about your (faulty) logic over "electability." They are from outside the process and new participants who have energized a campaign that was generally a sleep-fest from earlier days.

For another thing, it's just not true that Dean alone is "divisive." Hard as it is for you to believe, a large number of Democrats are just as blasé about Clark, or Kucinich, or Kerry, or whoever. WHOEVER gets the nomination will have to face down Democrats who are blasé towards their candidacy.

There are going to be pro-choice Dems who are nervous/angry over Kucinich's sudden conversion on abortion if he's the nominee. There will be gay Dems who will be nervous over Clark's constant flip-flops on gay rights if he's the nominee. There will be Democrats who are concerned about Kerry's foreign policy competence if he is the nominee based on his vote to support the Iraq war.

The key for whoever wins is assuaging fear, not attacking those candidates' supporters and those supporters' candidates as "stupid" or "pig-headed" or whatever -- which is exactly what you are doing.

As a Dean supporter, I know Clark and Gephardt and Kerry supporters will be welcomed in the overall campaign. However, I STRONGLY believe that those three candidates will work to shut out Dean supporters, based on their rhetoric to date (including stuff like the original post in this thread). Is developing that perception amongst a large pool of Democrats a smart approach overall from an "electability" perspective?

Think about that.

[mandyky]

120. Not all Dean supporters are "media bamboozled"

I've been a Deaniac since he was an asterisk. And Dean is the only one making news, really. What do you want the media to do, make up stories and poll results?

If any of the other candidates can't beat Dean, how can they challenge shrub? They can't.

All this Dean-is-unelectable-handwringing is a bunch of sour grape hooey! Or as someone else says - "Poop"!

[Tom Rinaldo]

123. You are right of course

It always bothers me when anyone makes negative projections onto a large group of people. As to newsworthiness, Dean made a great story for a long time as "The Mouse That Roared". Great press theme. Problem for Dean is, that is now yesterday's news. That story ran out of gas. Now the Press is becoming more interested in looking for tarnish on Dean's Suit of Armor.

I always understood the general media fascination for Dean, it's the professional political pundits who have been trying to call the race for the last month or more that annoy me.

[Hep]

121. They feed on your desperation

you know.