Words to Kerry Supporters from a Deanie

[frustrated_lefty]

Face up, I apologize for having a hard time getting behind your guy. You guys like and respect him, and I am not going to criticize that. And, I admire your support of your guy.

If you'll allow me, I'd like to offer a few words of constructive criticism because I hate seeing any dem smacked around.

You guys seem to have a tendency for dismissing criticisms on anything. You just dismiss it, deny it, refuse to accept it may be an issue. You are going to lose votes that way. You have to address the subject immediately and spin it, or present it in a different light.

The second thing...there was a poll here last night asking "if Kerry is the nominee, will you A) vote for Kerry or B) not vote for Kerry." About 1/3 of the responses said "I won't vote for Kerry." Kerry supporters replied by saying anyone who voted that way should be banned from DU and casting about insults.

Honestly, you guys need to be asking "why are so many people so vehemently against my choice, and how can I convince them to change?" What you guys come up with is "ban them." It sounds like more of what we already have. You are confirming our worst fears. If you believe in Kerry, and I sure as hell don't, you need to be convincing the reat of us WHY. You have a forum desperate to get rid of Bush. Give us even a tiny reason to get behind Kerry. You haven't done it yet, and if you want Kerry to win you have to change that.

[JohnKleeb]

1. Its natural for people to get upset

Believe me, it happened all the time and frankly I didnt blame them when your guy was the frontrunner. Its hard to explain why I support Kerry but here's why. the ten points if I must. also I think we're having a hard time posting why we support the man if we are on the defensive. Its all good. One last thing, I stood up for those who said they wont vote for the nominee, I hate the idea of them not voting for the nominee but I wont force them to, I try to be ABB but I dont think I am. I have some problems with some of the candiates for reason I dont wanna specify.

Points
1. A solid environmental policy, a man backed by the LCV and an overall grade of 95% from them over the years.
2. A nice health care plan, John Kerry wants us to get the same health care he had as senator.
3. As a person who is related to many veterans, John Kerry has always been a strong fighter for veterans.
Here's a link
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/
I wish I could explain better but I did my best.

[frustrated_lefty]

14. Thank you

You offered a few valid points there, and I'll honestly look into them.

1) The environment
2) Healthcare
3) Veterans

They're all important issues, and I'm willing to learn more about what he did in that regard.

If there is more you can say, I would love to hear it. I don't want to NOT vote this year, but I truly need to believe I am voting FOR something.

[JohnKleeb]

18. Just read his platform

:shrug: Takes you about 5 seconds to determine whose side this guy is on. BTW I myself am not officially ABB, I really would like you guys to support him if hes the nom, we need every vote we can get. I forgot to mention another one, he tends to be on the more leanant side of the death penalty and drug use. Also Senator Kerry was one of the first politicans to stand up publicy for GLBT rights, he has received an 100 from the HRC since 1995 I believe and voted against DOMA. Plus hes Irish ;), lol I tease with you on that, because hes really of German-Jewish blood originally. Also he helped big with the Kyoto treaty.

[aquart]

24. You vote against Bush or Democracy dies.

This is a life or death choice. I do not choose Kerry for the primaries but if the rest of the Democrats do, I will vote for him if he sprouts horns and has 666 spelled out in botox on his forehead two days before elections.

And, honestly, the programs won't matter. There won't be a dime for anything. This nation has been looted.

What I pray for is that the great trustbuster Teddy Roosevelt will rise from the grave and inhabit our choice. I really don't think Kerry will make the smallest move on corporate corruption.

But he won't appoint pigs for judges. SUPREME COURT JUDGES. I'm ready to live with that. So you get ready to suck it up and vote, too.

[JohnKleeb]

29. I think Kerry is better than a lot of us give him credit for

A lot of us here love Clinton lol, but Kerry IMO is better than Clinton. I do sorta back Kerry for somewhat pragmatic reasons but hes a fine choice.

[DoctorMyEyes]

30. Exactly!

This one is for all the marbles!


Every single dem candidate would be exponentially better than Bush - even if he sucked! If it came down to it I would even vote for Lieberman. I would bathe with a Brillo pad afterwards, but I would do it damnit!

All this talk about "voting for something" - VOTE FOR SURVIVAL!

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oxymoron]

3. Sorry, but...

I am not a Kerry or a Dean person but I don't see the Kerry folks using tactics that are any worse than the ones the Dean folks have used in the past. And let's talk for a minute about dismissing criticism...

[Melinda]

6. "And let's talk for a minute about dismissing criticism..."

Brilliant post. :)

[oxymoron]

10. I thoroughly enjoyed your incisive comments also.

:D

[DemBones DemBones]

55. Yes, there's an old adage that applies here:

"It all depends on whose ox is being gored."


And that has nothing to do with the former vice president. ;-)

[Maddy McCall]

4. The only criticisms of Kerry I have seen any of his supporters dismiss

are the bullshit ones that deserve to be dismissed.

[girl gone mad]

49. Like this one?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=238630

[NewYorkerfromMass]

5. a tiny reason to get behind Kerry

Bush. Not so tiny if he's in office until 2009.

[DoctorMyEyes]

7. I'm not a Kerry supporter

but if I were I would find this highly insulting.

and as far as 1/3 of DUers saying they wouldn't vote for Kerry if he's the nominee - they need to pull their collective heads out of their asses. DU represents a pimple on the ass of the electorate and DU doesn't make or break anybody in the primaries.

GO OUT and support YOUR candidate NOW!

After all the votes are tallied up and we have a nominee we ALL need to get behind that candidate and quit this candy ass whining unless you're willing to live with another four years of Bush and company. Do you think we can survive another four years with Bush in a "nothing to lose" position?

Everybody please go outside get some fresh air and get a doggamned grip on yourselves!

[JohnKleeb]

8. More people were ABB

in December I suppose that changes when a candiate you dont like comes back. Its a shame, I admit I was a cynic on Kerry htis past summer, but the Kerry supporters many of them long time friends and who also highly respected and liked my guy DK, and I read his issues, and from then on he was number 2. What also made me take a good look at Kerry and I admit normally endorsements dont affect me, but anyone who gets endorsed by Ted Kennedy sounds good. I really think Kerry is a good guy, and I think all these guys are good guys despite my issues with some of them.

[Melinda]

9. Doctor, I think you're needed in examination room 9

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=238284

:hi:

[DoctorMyEyes]

25. LOL! I do!

Thank you for the link. I'm with Will......arghhhh!


:argh:

[frustrated_lefty]

15. I mean no insult

I think Bush sucks. I don't want my vote to just be a "no" against Bush. I want my vote to be a "yes" for SOMETHING. And I was offering an honest opinion, not meant to cut anyone down. I'm sorry it struck you that way.

[DoctorMyEyes]

40. I'm sorry if I sounded harsh

all of this "who I won't vote for" crap around here is getting on my last nerve. You're surely not the only one responsible for my current disposition.

I understand that you want your vote to be a "yes" for something - so when November rolls around - let your vote be a YES for saving the world!

We're dying here..... Bush is killing the planet, killing our children, taking our jobs and is the worst fucking president in the entire history of the U.S. No one can sit this one out because they don't like the other guy. The dem candidate - whoever he is - is our only hope.

If you were about to die of starvation and someone offered you a peanut butter and jelly sandwich would you decline and hold out for a steak?

[IowaBiker]

65. Get Real

You can vote for somebody who listens to people.

Listening is very good. In Iowa Dean and his people did not do that. They yelled a lot.

What else can Kerry do?

With a Republican House and Senate, there is little Kerry can actively pursue.

Still as President John Kerry can return the nation back to considered thought on issues and matters of national security.

He can appoint a thoughtful Justice to the Supreme Court.

He can prevent a radical congress from passing a radical agenda.

He can restore environmental integrity to the EPA.

He can appoint a good attorney general.

He can repair our relationships with the rest of the world.

He will take care of this nation's obligations to those who fought for its freedoms in the Armed Services.

And there is one thing he is already doing that Dean can't do. And that is he can act like somebody other than a liberal version of GW Bush*.

Just so you know, frustrated_lefty, the Dean gang came into my state and my city and my block and to my door and insulted me and other Democrats.

Dean had a lead here, and wore out his welcome. I seriously am afraid of Dean and his followers because of that. You strike me as a very selfish bunch. Your team did the same thing to a large number of my neighbors.

At the caucus, I took pictures of all the candidate groups. In the Dean photo, there is not a single smile. The entire group was angry and frowning. I don't need four years of that.

I'm convinced that many of you will not vote for Kerry because you are still angry and selfish and care more about yourselves than your party or your country. You've as much as announced that when you wrote about leaving this country.

You only serve to confirm my worst fears. Reading the thread you mocked the few responses to which you responded. You're writing bleeds a false sincerity. So does your candidate.

We're not stupid farmers here in Iowa. We have one of the highest literacy rates in the nation. We're very generous people. But we are also pragmatic.

Our generousity ends and pragmatism begins when we figure out you think you're better than us. And that's what happened in Iowa.

Look in the mirror to see what went wrong with your campaign. Barring a miracle, it is over for you.

Enjoy your one-way ticket out of the country. We Iowans won't miss you.

--Brian

[aquart]

28. Yep.

[Zomby Woof]

11. one month ago and more...

One could have substituted "Dean" for "Kerry" in your post, and made the same arguments. Having butted heads with many a Dean supporter, I can testify that ALL of your critiques of Kerry also apply to Dean, even now, never mind a month ago or more.

This passage struck me as particularly apt for Dean:

You guys seem to have a tendency for dismissing criticisms on anything. You just dismiss it, deny it, refuse to accept it may be an issue. You are going to lose votes that way. You have to address the subject immediately and spin it, or present it in a different light.

Oh yes, don't forget to blame the media.

But one last thing- MANY Kerry supporters HAVE offered "one tiny reason" to support him - but THOSE get dismissed, denied, and refused.

Damn media.

[frustrated_lefty]

22. ZW

what you say is or may be accurate. It's close enough to truth I won't quibble.

I am a Dean supporter. I have just watched 743 versions of the Dean scream on T.V. Surely, one of you can offer a second defense of Kerry.

In the primaries, in the GE, there has to be reinforcement. You like your guy. If you really do, scream his message loud and high, and, most importantly, often.

See, what bothers me is, in your post you didn't say a single positive word about Kerry. I want a positive word.

If the only thing I hear about Kerry by November is "he's electable," I'm just not voting.

[JohnKleeb]

26. I dont like this "he is electable" arguement either

I remember when Wes Clark first entered and we saw this arguement a lot. What are your big issues frustrated lefty? I would really take a nice look at his platform. Believe me if it was all about electablity, I wouldnt be supporting him, my motto is screw electablity hence my support of DK still :).

[frustrated_lefty]

48. I'm listening......

you have "positiveness" that would make the Edwards campaign groan with envy.

I REALLY am listening, you said positive, substantive things John. I'm slow-witted, I do need to ruminate on these things.

[Zomby Woof]

36. As a DK supporter...

You'll have to wait quite a while before I post in defense of Kerry just to appease a Dean supporter. There are plenty of articulate, reasonable, fair, intelligent, and able defenders of Kerry on DU. All I can do is offer an "outside" view of Dean and Kerry, since neither is my choice. Perhaps that is why my post was uncomfortably true.

[oasis]

12. Kerry supporters have been posting "issues" and policy positons for weeks.

Botox, skull and bones, pnac and other rubbish folks bring up should be disimissed.

[JohnKleeb]

13. Hell oasis thats what got me getting a second look at Kerry this summer

Dr. Funkenstein had a lot of those in politics/campaigns in the summer.

[La_Serpiente]

16. We had a thread earlier today explaining Kerry's health care plan

We have also gone over his war vote, I belive, very extensively.

I am not sure what criticisms you are talking about, but if they are bullshit attacks like calling him a war criminal for fighting in Vietnam (trust me, I've seen it one time. I won't say which DUer said it though, but it did happen) and the threads about his botox, I won't waste my time.

If the thread was over a policy decision, then I think Kerry supporters would be more than willing to explain it.

[sandnsea]

20. What's this about a war vote??

What did I miss? :D
;)

[sandnsea]

17. Who said ban them??

I didn't pay much attention to that thread because that kind of stuff is silly. Just like I didn't pay alot of attention to the Dean people who said they wouldn't vote for Kerry. And yes, it's primarily Dean people, I don't even need to think twice.

Are you upset that we're not freaking out over every little thing that comes out in the media? That we're not posting thread after thread of how unfairly Kerry is being treated. We're not demanding retractions that will only drag it out in the media even LONGER.

Pick your battles. Botox is NOT a battle. Haircuts are NOT a battle. Affirmative Action statements that were debunked years ago and are clearly Lehane tactis are NOT a battle, at least not a huge one. Dean's smears about Kerry's record are NOT a battle, they're just same ol', same ol'.

We've been here, done this. We're settling into the fight. And the fight is with Rove, not Clark and Dean.

And John Kerry could save the planet from starvation and nuclear destruction and it wouldn't be enough. I don't possibly know how Kerry people could post MORE reasons to support him. For whatever bizarre reason, people around here have just decided he needs to be kicked around. It's mind boggling that he could do so much and be treated like shit by the same people he's dedicated his life to. The truth is, we don't deserve his dedication. I'd have told all of us to fuck off a very long time ago.

[JohnKleeb]

19. TruthisAll said that and I am not even sure hes one of ours

[sandnsea]

21. I don't think so

Didn't used to be, at least.

[JohnKleeb]

23. I myself am not officially ABB

[frustrated_lefty]

33. No, sandsea

As a democrat, as a person desperate for change, I am BEGGING for a reason to get behind Kerry. JohnKleeb gave some decent answers. I'll look at them, in greater depth. What saddens me is every Kerry supporter in this thread neglects to talk about anything Kerry has done which was GOOD for America.

Look at your own post. Much of it was about what wasn't important (it's irrelevant, it's a non-issue). And none of it pointed out one single, specific thing Kerry did which was good and helpful. I'll be happy to ruminate on JohnKleeb's post, and it may sway me. Yours didn't touch a sliver in my bones.

I was being honest. You guys need to be doing what JohnKleeb is, convincing people to vote for something and not relying on them voting against Bush. That just isn't a winning ticket.

[sandnsea]

34. If you don't know by now

You don't want to. I've seen too much stuff posted the last year, I know the information has been there if anybody wanted to see it.

[frustrated_lefty]

47. Sandsea

My attention has been devoted to my guy. I'm looking into info on Kerry since he took the lead, and I honestly don't like a lot of what I've seen. Some is really good.

I'm not trying to bash your guy, I am honestly trying to figure out whether or not to even vote.

Maybe I missed some of the good things about Kerry. So sue me, or ban me from DU. That will go far to winning my vote. :p

[sandnsea]

57. I looked at everybody

That's what is frustrating to me. I checked all the candidates positions thoroughly. I didn't pick Kerry for whatever reason and then just run with it. And then support him for months and berate other candidates and not even know whether I was right or wrong on my facts. I'm not saying you, necessarily. It's just unbelievable to me that so many people are so confused about some pretty simple things.

Like the $87 billion and the tax cut votes. How can people not know the truth??

I'm sorry to take my frustration out on you, that's not right.

If you can't think of any other reason to vote for a Democrat, the Supreme Court ought to do it for you. Every time I get up to my eyeballs with Dean, I remember the Supreme Court and know I'd campaign my ass off for him. They WILL retire next time. No question.

I'd be glad to answer any questions about Kerry that you have. And no Kerry supporter I know would ever suggest anyone be banned from DU because they didn't support one candidate or another. If one did, it shouldn't have happened.

Friends?

[frustrated_lefty]

61. Friends.

I'm sorry for several of my posts in the last few months, there was a bite to some of them that wasn't necessary. It wasn't even appropriate.

Give me a day or two, I will come back with questions, but they won't be "gotcha" ones. If you'll be kind enough to answer, I'll listen to your answers.

This election is just honestly making me cry. I want a better world for my kids. That's all I want. If John Kerry can deliver that, he'll have my vote.

[sandnsea]

63. Me too

Me too. I can't bear the thought of leaving them this mess. I really do think John Kerry has the vision, a real vision of a connected world where we start building the bridges to peace. When he says "We need to make a few friends on this planet." Or gets sooo upset that Bush walked out of Kyoto. 100 countries working for 10 years and Bush just dumps it. The tone in his voice makes me know it's Bush's blatant disregard for other people that really drives him over the bend. I read an article yesterday about Iraq and whether he was going to get to the bottom of it or something like that. The writer said the most voracious "YES" came out of Kerry's mouth that he'd ever heard from him. I know he has the fight in him if he wants to do this. I just hope I'm right that he really will. And when I say really will, I mean all the way. Honestly, Howard Dean is like a little fly buzzing around the Bushie's head. Kerry. They held a LIVE press conference to go after Kerry today. They haven't done that with anybody else that I've seen. They want him gone.

[JohnKleeb]

35. Shes really got upset and believe me she has posted simliar stuff to this

I used to get down right infuriatd when people wnated just to nominate Dean or Clark just because they could "win", DK had the vision I wanted.
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/education/
education, he opposes vouchers, and is for pre K-12 EDU for all, frankly I find this a noble but simple concept, public pre schooling.

[George_Bonanza]

27. Kerry supporters ignore issues?

Hell, every time we stump an unworthy criticism, it's always "rebutted" with IWR or Patriot Act. Once the accuser runs out of arguments, we can all tell that he/she is out of steam when that issue comes up. I've tried to explain the Patriot Act so many times it's muscle memory now. But let me go at it again: Maybe we all forgot the feeling, but 9/11 WAS the deadliest attack on American land and people were shaken up. Even liberals like Ted Kennedy, Paul Wellstone, and John Kerry voted for the Patriot Act because of the times and circumstances they were living in. If you condemn John Kerry, why not send Kennedy and Wellstone to Hell as well? And what about dear ex-governor Dean? The man who said that that our civil liberties should be re-examined after 9/11. Are you telling me that a DLC governor of Vermont who relied on Republican support would've sided with the likes of Feingold over 99% of the Senate, if he was in that position? It's damn lucky that Dean has a lot of power in being able to project a whole bunch of "woulda"'s.

There has never been a "Nobody But Kerry" thread. On the other hand, there's been too many "Nobody But Dean" threads. Most of Kerry's supporters at DU are some of the most reasonable and level-headed debaters around, and have spent numerous hours trying to talk over the issues. Frustrated_Lefty, you are dead wrong when you say that Kerry supporters have not done anything meaningful to convince you or others like you to our camp. Perhaps you are not reading the right posts.

[JohnKleeb]

31. A lot of these non congressional candiates endorsers voted for the PA

Dean and Clark alike, and Clark has many IWR supporting endorsers such as Pryor and Lincoln and Taylor. So no offense to supporters of either but the PA isnt tat big of a deal, and I really think if your guy truly cared about the PA, he would have expressed support of the Benjamin Franklin True Patriot Act, of course thre is one candiate who has because its his bill. The IWR I agree is a problem but I trust Kerry to keep us out of unjust wars.

[George_Bonanza]

37. Exactly, well said

[JohnKleeb]

38. Its true man

If any of these non DC candiates really cared about the PA like we all did, why havent the stood by Dennis. I believe Teresa Heinz Kerry criticized Gutamatomo Bay and the way the adminstration holds prisoners there.

[frustrated_lefty]

39. George

Good reply, fire in the belly. Ok, I'm listening. For the record, I knew the Patriot Act would be a nightmare.

If you want to sell me on THIS issue, consider: The bad side of the PA has been realized in the last two years. Senator Kerry is in place to help change it. What has he done?

And, to you personally, I offer an apology. I was referring to the posts in the last few weeks. There may have been many worthwhile posts which I missed. If I did, I am sorry.

But, please explain why Kerry is the man. If you've said it elsewhere, don't tire your fingers typing it over again, provide a link.

[George_Bonanza]

44. Hey, good you're know you're listening

Nobody except for Dennis Kucinich is advocating a complete overhaul of the Patriot Act. Not Dean, not Edwards, and not Clark. All of the major 4 candidates advocate a stripping of the bad parts of the Patriot Act. John Kerry has specifically acknowledged good aspects, such as the increased ability of intelligence agencies to share information to prevent future terrorist attacks. To me, the Patriot Act is a non-issue because is Paul Wellstone and Ted Kennedy voted for it, then any of the major 4 candidates, who are all to the Right of those men, would've definitely done so as well. It's up for expiration soon, the Supreme Court has just overturned some of its unconstitutional elements, and all of the candidates are more or less advocating the same thing. Was it wrong to vote Yes? Definitely. But I am fully committed to forgiving that as an honest and emotional mistake. As should everybody else.

That's the Patriot Act in a nutshell. No need to say sorry, at least you're willing to reason, unlike some people.

Why do I support Kerry? Because he inspires me. Pundits talk of Dukakis this, and Dukakis that, but could you really imagine the press trying to make Kerry, a proven war hero who was greeted by those whom he personally pulled out of the water and saved, as an "effete northern liberal" like Dukakis, ESPECIALLY since he's running against a military coward like Bush (at least his father had the guts to actually fight in a war).

[JohnKleeb]

46. Heres my rebunk of Dukakis

Many first time voters will be a little older than me, and I barely know who Dukakis is and people I am a nerd damnit :). Some will remember Dukakis but 1988 was 16 years ago, the times have changed, I live in the next town over, I can speak coherent english, I am not longer an only child, and Ive lost much over the years and gained as well. However if this year was 1992, I could see the plausablity in a possible Dukakis comparsion but Dukakis didnt just lose because of image, he didnt fight back and Kerry does fight back.

[frustrated_lefty]

50. Thank you for answering and

I will give it genuine thought. Maybe I'm wrong, but I hear you saying it was natural to vote for the PA immediately after 9/11, and that act deserves the benefit of hindsight. I can accept a modest mistake if there is the momentum to fix it when it's clear it was a mistake. And, really, that mistake was understandable.

[JohnKleeb]

51. I dont mean any direspect here but Ive always found out coveient

for supporters of non congresspeople to attack people for the PA. If PA is a really important issue for you, I wuold take a good look at DK, same with the war.

[frustrated_lefty]

53. You may be mishearing me a little.

The PA is vile.

But, I can understand why ANYONE would have supported it in the days after 9/11.

Some of the clauses are vile. We've had time for retrospect, now, though.

What is your candidate going to do to modify or fix it? Where do we go from here?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

32. It started out that way

The posts that challenge his incorrectness on the war are not to be dismissed, however, the facts surrounding that vote, the closed door security meeting, the Rose Garden derailing of the Democratic party challenge to the plan etc. are also not to be dismissed but more often than not summarily are. They are compared to the choices of a man that didn't have to make one. I have a bit of an issue with that.

Challenging his signing of the Patriot Act, an act that was created in haste when EVERY OTHER SENATOR but for ONE signed it and dismissing the period of turmoil the country was in and the anthrax attacks on the senate, and on other laborers is historical revisionism at its worst. The act sunsets soon and he along with others have stated there is much of it to be repealed. He has stated so on his site and in interviews.

The claims of Botox, Kerry's actual time "in country", the claims that he is connected by the navel to Bush on the basis of La Rouche organization studies, right wing veterans' groups, and other media assassination are exactly that. Claims and tripe. There is nothing to respond to. The Dean Scream is MORE verifiable and even THAT character assassination fell apart, but I suppose several people here will soon be posting articles that say Kerry ran that tape 700 times. (For the record, I defended Howard Dean on those tapes even before the facts were known re: the mike).

The claims that he is unaccomplished are likewise tripe. He has uncovered MORE government corruption than damn near any senator ever. People are acting as though Kerry issued the pardons that George Senior issued that derailed much of those investigations. Clinton called off the dogs and the Democratic party went along in the spirit of reconciliation back in 92. Kerry did not drop the ball on anything. The Webb story had so many edits by the Mercury News, it was totally discredited at the time.

Kerry's investigation regarding BCCI were AGAIN sidelined by Clinton, who thought it would take down the world markets. Anyone can google information on his efforts on these items while he was still supporting his party with MANY crucial votes.

There are many writings by Robert Parry regarding this time period. To my knowledge, none are indicative of any wrong doing by Kerry.

If you don't want to vote for him, SO be it. There are several other candidates in the race.

I think over a decade on the Senate Intelligence committee, several years on the foreign relations committee, and his writings from 1997 indicating that world crime would finance terrorism (which it did...Bin Laden didn't spend his family's fortune) were VERY forward thinking. I think that had we taken the tack of PAYING attention to the funds that were financing terror around the world as John Kerry suggested, then there wouldn't be the enterprise of terrorism that there is today. Many laws regarding the proliferation of weapons home and abroad were lobbied against by and organization called the NRA who gives Howard Dean a 100% rating.

I know how the republicans are going to spin it. I GOT that from Democrats right here on DU.

I think 20 years dealing on the legal level combined with over a decade on committees being knowledgeable about our foreign relations, trade matters, and the underlying reasons that other cultures resent us enough to turn our citizens into bombs to take down landmarks is the kind of experience the country could use right now.

[ibegurpard]

Let me start off by saying I can't stand the idea of Kerry as a candidate

But I don't think the Patriot Act is something we can hit them over. They ALL voted for it.

[JohnKleeb]

42. Kucinich didnt vote for PA

[ibegurpard]

43. Wasn't aware of that but like I said, it's not an issue for me

since so many of them DID. What would be VERY, VERY troubling is if they didn't allow it to sunset.

[JohnKleeb]

45. I am suprised you didnt know that but its all good

Its not an issue for me but it is an issue that makes me proud to support DK. I believe Senator Durbin of Illinois has introduced some legislation on the Patriot Act recently.

[isbister]

41. a tiny reason to get behind Kerry

One or more Supreme Court Justices will retire during the next Presidential term.

Anyone But Bush needs to be there in the White House.

[frustrated_lefty]

52. I appreciate the reply;

but honestly, that's another negative, that is not a "there is something to look forward to."

Really and truly, if I think this country is going down the tubes, I am sending job applications out of this country. I want America to be strong, I want my kids to be proud to be Americans. If all we're left with is "we're not as bad as we could be," I think we've lost.

[LosAngelesDemocrat]

54. You can win the battle but lose the war

Again and again I constantly post comments on this.
As a democrat first and foremost above individual candidates, my position is that I have and will support EVERY democratic candidate in their quest to reach their own constituencies. Every candidate brings something special to the table that no other candidate has. And in the end, the democratic nominee is supposed take all of that and IN THE NAME of the trailing candidates take that platform comprised of ALL the candidates and use it to go against Bush. What ever happened to good sportsmanship? It's one thing to advocate your own candidate difference to another candidate but to directly bash the other candidate maliciously is another story. I see too many good opportunities going to waste here in the long term viability of the democratic party. Otherwise the democratic party is going to end up being fractured apart into greens peeling off on the left and pro-business liberals and white males turning republican (contact me personally for stats or examples). I originally leaned toward Clark, with admiration for Dean and his ability to excite a new base of voters that haven't been seen in the democratic party since the 60s. Then I assisted Kerry's volunteer meetup here in LA in dealing with unexpected moderate voters that were hijacking the meeting and expressing the strength in Kerry's platform to them while also advocating to Kerry supporters the importance of democratic solidarity. After all, isn't the main focus not winning the primary but winning the general election?

Again and again... if we forget who we are as democrats and our values of diversity, progressivism, and coalition formers; then we cease to be the "big tent" party and what the republican strategists have been planning for the past 40 years and instituting in the past decade goes through and we all lose.

Remember that this is more than a battle of just issues and positions regarding say Iraq, the economy, civil rights, etc. It goes deeper than that. It's about values. How we will conduct ourselves as a society. Multilateralism isn't only a term applied to foreign policy, it's also a term that should be applied domestically.

I mean I also like Kerry alot but if he is the nominee what are his chances of winning without the support of Dean, Clark, and Edwards? Are the others going to just provide lip service in support? If so, Nader will run and a bunch of Dean supporters will peel off making Kerry waste time in Oregon and Washington, exasperating things in the south with 1/4 of the veterans (Clark supporters) peeling off to the republicans, and causing low voter turnout of the remaining democratic suburbanites in the South (Edward supporters).

I have ideas on how to combat this (and trust me this is not a hopeless cause) using the local and state democratic establishment and if there are any ppl that are interested this can be discussed outside a public forum.

:grouphug: The Big Tent Party!!! Democrats unite!


Democrat Meetup Volunteer LA

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. I'm all ears

[LosAngelesDemocrat]

59. Uniting the democratic party

sorry but I don't have enough post to send you a private message

It involves fundrasing and mixers in every state that has a primary from this point on...

[La_Serpiente]

62. Welcome to DU

:hi: hello

[LosAngelesDemocrat]

64. hi to you too!!! hehe

:eyes: hiya La_Serpiente!!!
umm I think everyone is sleeping now...

[frustrated_lefty]

58. I'm calling it quits on this issue tonight, and

am going to think about the very good points people have raised here, particularly JohnKleeb. Thoughts like these don't change overnight, and I want to thank John in particular for his honest replies.

[ngGale]

60. My 2 cents worth about Kerry and the Deanie's

Was surprised today to hear a friend, Dean supporter, say that she would not vote for Kerry. In fact, that if Dean was not nominated she would not vote period. This did bother me as I asked why not? Dean is very popular and Kerry is seen as the establishment. The establishment they want to change. With Kerry they think it will be more of the same. These kids don't want a little change they want a big change.

[Lexingtonian]

66. let me argue with that

You guys seem to have a tendency for dismissing criticisms on anything. You just dismiss it, deny it, refuse to accept it may be an issue. You are going to lose votes that way. You have to address the subject immediately and spin it, or present it in a different light.

The basic argument for Kerry is not individual bits, it's the totality of the evidence.

The second thing...there was a poll here last night asking "if Kerry is the nominee, will you A) vote for Kerry or B) not vote for Kerry." About 1/3 of the responses said "I won't vote for Kerry." Kerry supporters replied by saying anyone who voted that way should be banned from DU and casting about insults.

For one thing, DU is not particularly representative of the Party. It is far more white, middle class, age 20-45, and male. Those living in Republican-dominated or conservatively Democratic regions are particularly vocal. That is practically the Dean and the Clark demographic.

Dean people have also made no bones about their campaign's initial intention to remake the Party in their own image, rather than mutual adaptation. The 'Revolution' rhetoric has vanished, but the desire has not diminished as greatly. The whiff of the Bolshevik- totalitarian paternalism- about it has been pretty revolting.

Honestly, you guys need to be asking "why are so many people so vehemently against my choice, and how can I convince them to change?" What you guys come up with is "ban them." It sounds like more of what we already have. You are confirming our worst fears. If you believe in Kerry, and I sure as hell don't, you need to be convincing the rest of us WHY. You have a forum desperate to get rid of Bush. Give us even a tiny reason to get behind Kerry. You haven't done it yet, and if you want Kerry to win you have to change that.

Well, consider this observation in turn: you (and others of your group) refuse to acknowledge any principle on which there is common cause. Good government (of the People, by the People, for the People)- no. A liberal approach (affirmation of the interests of the living and creative freedom over those of the dead and the exploitive)- no. A contempt for idolatry of persons and Power- no. Being against Bush- Kerry gets no credit for the ways he is, and belittled for the ways he isn't focussed on it. Your side goes far out of its way to try to prove Kerry to be advocate and representative of exactly none of these things, giving credence to every silly argument and spurious evidence while ignoring all the obvious things. (The internalized classism it also reveals is horrifying and ignorant, too.)

In essence you want, as do most of the critical of him here, a means by which to arrive at emotional identification with the man. You want his theory of power to match to your needs and inclinations.

There are two approaches to power. One is that of desire, which takes the form of will, asserts itself as the opinion that matters without proofs, and has a way of imploding as it loses touch with and then collides with reality. The other is to start with reality, figure out what is needed, and present it as the opinion that matters- this argument from necessity doesn't have much power over the imagination, however.

The Dean- and Bush- approach to power are of the first kind. Clark and Edwards talk a mixture of the two, which is why people have trouble imagining clearly what they would do in the Oval Office when under extreme pressures. Kerry's argument is somewhat fuzzed and gussied up because the zeitgeist is one of avoiding a hard look at inconvenient realities, but a version of the second.

In the present politically hardened and polarized situation, a politics based on desires of one side is the stock in trade. It is, however, not a winning formulation- it can't possibly get a foothold with the other side. A politics that works up from pragmatic realities- even if it necessarily obscures the difficult ones to bear- can, however, break the present status quo of politics that transacts in irrealities and fantasies.

So imho the translation of what Iowa and New Hampshire voters were saying about picking Kerry is something like this: 'After weighing all the appeals to our desires, the weapon of the Republican side is a hard wind of irreality that knocks down all Democratic politics based largely on desire. But reality is now in our favor, so the candidate with the strongest foothold in it is our best shot.'

[incapsulated]

67. hold on there

"For one thing, DU is not particularly representative of the Party. It is far more white, middle class, age 20-45, and male. Those living in Republican-dominated or conservatively Democratic regions are particularly vocal. That is practically the Dean and the Clark demographic."

What are you saying here? That Dean is going for Republican area votes? That Clark's main audience is white middle class males?(because I would like to see some evidence of that, of those DU'ers of color that are here, many are Clark supporters, including myself.)

As for the rest of it, what you seem to be saying (which is hard to ascertain, given the rather strained rhetoric) is that Kerry is some sort of political realist, deliberately vague and obfuscating, because the population is inherently stupid, but hiding some sort of force of will to accomplish the best possible outcome based on a solid assessment of what is possible. This is uninspiring, but the Democratic mirror-image of Bush.

I would say to you that Clinton had all of the above in spades, yet still managed to inspire, charm and speak to the average American in an intelligent manner without appearing to condescend. I see none of this in Kerry, and it may well be his fatal flaw.