Please explain how we can overcome the Diebold machines in 08

[CTyankee]

I read here on DU that if we have the overwhelming numbers, we can overcome the voting machine fraud. I would certainly would hope so. But the voting machines are not the only problem. Surely the repubs have figured out how to defeat us by simply arranging for dem votes to be thrown away, "lost," or otherwise altered. On a massive scale, by putting their operatives in key positions in the key states. These guys have no qualms about committing grand vote larceny. I am also not ruling out "framing" our candidate with fake charges of some sort.

I want to believe that they just can't steal an election from us if we have a landslide of votes on our side. Please convince me that I am wrong!

[babsbunny]

1. Yeah! Splane!

That is the only way we will win elections!

[valerief]

2. Million Person March with Axes

To be used at your local voting place

Or better yet, BUY the Diebold owners. No, there's not enough money in the world for that. They have it all.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

21. Great idea. Million plus maybe march with axes to obliterate all

the electronic voting paraphanalia.

:nuke:

;) Just kidding for anyone conducting surveillance on DU.

[omega minimo]

43. Gazillion Voter March with pencils to fill in the bubbles

or write in candidates

:kick:

[orleans]

27. i was just thinking baseball bats. humm.... n/t

[randomelement]

49. We must guard against the vandals

From benburch - a timely read:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x83591

;)

[geomon666]

3. We can't

The only way we can ever hope for complete is when these machines are outlawed as a threat to democracy.

[1620rock]

4. Well for starters...

...why has this been a non-issue with the Democrats????? :argh:

[elizm]

15. THAT is the million dollar question....

...But when you consider they don't stand up for anything else, why should we expect them to stand up for this? Surely they aren't so stupid that they are unaware of the problem. How can WE all know and they don't. SO WHY DON'T THEY CARE OR WHAT ARE THEY AFRAID OF?????????:mad:

[robbedvoter]

5. The assumption that there is a "limit of stealing" that can be overcome

is right out there with "bipartisanship" and the hope that if we just find someone perfect enough ("electable") the corporate media will hive him/her a fair treatment...
No answer for you. 2000 was stolen BEFORE Diebold.

[sasha031]

6. I'm almost through Mark Crispen Millers' Fooled Again

and I don't feel confident at all...you have to read this book

[SpongeBob]

7. THAT IS THE QUESTION! K&R

[Kierkegaard]

8. You are wrong, but only...

if they have electricity...you know what I'm sayin?

[savemefromdumbya]

9. change the machines for other 'reliable' brands

bipartisan panel (all parties) nominated to overlook EACH machine (going to need a lot of people!) inspect paper trail and determine whether source code has been changed.

[robbedvoter]

10. yeah, cuz "bipartizanship" always worked for us - seen Senate recently?

[savemefromdumbya]

11. apart from dumping the machines in Boston harbor

[boobooday]

12. I like your idea

It has a nice symbolic significance to it too.

[savemefromdumbya]

14. better than tea!

[Tigress DEM]

42. Yah, except that crap would rust and ... hmmm

don't old shipwrecks help the formation of barrier reefs? We'd want an environmentally friendly tactic. But the initial symbolism. I like it.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

13. I think it means a lot of work beginning with the local level.

Arizona is heavily involved in the battles now.

The FBI seized ballots to try to resolve a long running dispute over a 2004 election, hopefully it will help.

People are trying to challenge the SOS on what may be irregularities, ie purchasing Diebold DRE machines about 6 weeks ago, not complying with applicable law, both State and Federal.

We have 2 Dem candidates for Secretary of State, who will face off in the primary, then the winner will challenge the current SOS in the general election. The one who just entered the race is a former member of the popular Governor Napolitano's cabinet.

We need more Democrats in office as Secretaries of State and all levels of government.

Then there is the Rush Holt bill, HR 550 on a national level. The random recounts that it would require can really make a difference I believe.

Then there is people being out on election day and year round watching, recording, reporting.

It is just work and more work. Not fun. But that's the only answer I have.

[AbbyR]

47. I covered a quorum court meeting

in Arkansas, and apparently counties have been told that they have to put in new electronic voting machines. The first question I asked the county clerk was if there was a verifiable paper trail with the machines the county had selected (not Diebold, by the way) There was something, she said, which made me feel better, and I'll find out more when the machines come in.

In the meantime, I think I will be voting with an absentee paper ballot. But you know, they even have absentee voting by machine now.

[snowbear]

16. The Lynn Landes interview on Big Ed yesterday was AMAZING and SCARY

She talked about this lawsuit ---> http://www.govtech.net/news/news.php?id=98211

But what was so astounding and so SAD.. was how she said that she CANNOT get any support from the Democratic Party.

Her hunch on why there's no help from Democrats was because of "corporate donations" she said.

I still can't figure that one out though.. not when it comes to DIEBOLD.. :shrug:

She also said that if the same thing were happening to Republicans.. if the main voting machine developer was a Democratic supporter; that you'd be hearing about this non-stop.

That to me is just wrong.. Why isn't Howard Dean concerned about this problem?

Does he know something we don't know? Or... do we know something HE doesn't know?

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

18. The only explanation I've ever come up with is that most of them

don't get the technical part of it or are put off by trying to understand it.

So they find it hard to take on something they don't understand.

And maybe they don't wanna be called conspiracy theorists.

A shame since the pros on the technical aspect know there is a problem.

[CTyankee]

19. Schulz has said that he hears about this everywhere

he goes. He has had a reeducation on this issue and I think he is now a real driver of getting the message out.

It's our only hope, getting the message out. People don't want to believe conspiracy theories that challenge their thinking about our fairy tale democracy. It is just too horrible to contemplate.

[omega minimo]

29. "Too horrible to contemplate"

"All this was inspired by the principle--which is quite true in itself--that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods.

It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously.

Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation.

For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes.

-Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, chapter X "Why The Second Reich Collapsed"

[LibertyorDeath]

38. Rove must have read Mein Kampf

"Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death." -- Adolf Hitler

[trudyco]

17. I've been asking around trying to find out if anybody has

hand recounted the machines that did have a paper trail in '04. If you can show that the machines are highly -er- unreliable, then maybe people will listen to both a voter verified paper trail AND audits.

Also, has anybody done some extensive post election polling to see who voted for whom in those areas where there was no paper trail?

I'd be willing to help out (financially, and in person) if somebody was doing this.

The argument based on statistics keeps getting spun out into outerspace. It sure would be nice to have something more substantial. The Ohio last election looks highly suspect. Why not pool our money and get the University to conduct a post mortem survey?

I keep having this fantasy of having an army of notary publics at the voting sites asking people if they'd sign an affidavit (or whatever) stating who they voted for. If only the people who voted Dem cooperated it would be better than nothing.

It's very depressing. Even at the local level they are pushing back and the Dems don't seem very interested. Are they stupid?

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

20. The problem is the Repukes know they stole it, and so they guard

all the info, from computer source code to ballots.

Pretty hard to do a post mortem if you can't get your hands on the ballots. Unless you get the FBI in on it.

;) (like in Arizona)

[omega minimo]

28. Let's get a few million folks to register absentee

and keep copies of their ballots

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

30. That sounds like the beginning of a good strategy! If we could get almost

all Dems to do that, we might find some interesting information when compared to the election outcomes.

[omega minimo]

34. And then

we conduct our own exit polls


:evilgrin:

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

36. Or commission a firm with an impeccable reputation to do exit

polls?

[omega minimo]

37. Maybe Jimmy Carter can recommend someone

:smoke:

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

41. Yes, his name came to mind for me as well. n/t

[CottonBear]

22. In Georgia, we'd all have to vote absentee(no purchase of voter ID req'd)

and then pray that they'd count the absentee votes. :(

[underscorenow]

51. Yeah!! EVERYONE should vote absentee!

wouldn't that be the solution?

[CottonBear]

56. It's not a solution if the absentee votes sre not counted.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

Sometimes, absentee ballots are not counted unless the "regular' vote is really close. GA is so screwed right now. I'm not sure how/when the absentee ballots are counted now. The Republicans are mailing out absentee ballot forms in their campaign literature. I think Democrats need to do the same.

[snowbear]

23. Alaska does have official state voting records.........

...on paper, and it's enough of a big deal here, that the Alaska Democratic Party will be filing suit against Diebold if they don't provide the information they requested on January 23, 2006.

I'm wondering if we'll be the first actual "State Democratic Party Office" who files suit against Diebold? Maybe not, but I'm not sure.

And once we do.. doesn't Howard Dean have to get involved? :shrug: You'd sure think so.

I'd post the last chance letter the Alaska Democratic Party has sent to Diebold, but it's too long and it's in a Word document. It's also filled with a lot of technical voting machine gobbly-gook that I'm glad the Democratic Lawyer here is very up on!!!

Anyway.. there are state printouts here from election night.. and there is Diebold data.. (and they don't jive)

I hope our state is able to make some noise with this once it gets rolling!

[trudyco]

24. I sure hope so because I heard here in Boulder CO that the

County Whozit is keeping secret her plans for voting machines. If you can't force the issue in a blue county...!

[ladjf]

25. You might me right. But, we've got to operate on the assumption

that there is some hope. Slim chances are better than no chance.

[alittlelark]

26. Boston Tea Party?

:evilgrin:



But the scary thing is that I am serious.

[HuskerDU]

31. I feel that if the local polls show our candidate soundly ahead of

theirs, it would be too bold of them to steal again. Also, if they win all of the close races, that would raise red flags. So, IMO, if we have legit polls on the local level, we should at least gain seats, if not win a clear majority in House and Senate.

[AtomicKitten]

32. Dean suggests citizens gather signatures for a state ballot initiative

mandating no electronic voting machine may be used without a verifiable paper trail.

[Tom Rinaldo]

33. At worst we can clean up the voting in some areas

through local and state organizing. Those efforts are ongoing across the country, so some areas may be clean. That can help us win some places of course, and also make comparisons between otherwise similar clean results and Diebold results much more stark. And if we are blessed with grace and work our butts off, maybe a sense of national outrage over unfair elections can still be triggered before 2008.

And as to whether or not there is some threshold beyond which theft can not be pulled off, there is. No one would have believed that Goldwater beat Johnson, or McGovern beat Nixon, or Mondale beat Reagan. Too many people knew too many people who changed their normal party vote in order to back the guy who ended up winning in a landslide. People might have been convinced that Clinton lost in 1992 or 1996 though, if machines had been rigged then.

[skids]

35. Voters must not just be brought to the polls, but educated.

First, we have to have a campaign to make sure they don't get dropped off the registration rolls.

Haven't seen one yet.

Second, we need to give them advice on how to be deliberate in voting. Stuff like "Don't fill in the circle and write in the name too." and "Recheck the first page of the ballot on the touchscreen." If a bunch of educated savvy voters show up unexpectedly, that will chop some percentage points off the "fix."

Haven't seen that yet either.

Finally we need to have the elections monitored externally -- check those tallies posted on the precinct doors, do exit polls. Be ready to jump on any inconsistancy right away.

Haven't seen crap being done there either.

Nope, we're screwed.

[Virginian]

39. How about running a Dem named Bush?

I don't know of any, but I'm sure there must be some somewhere.

[Festivito]

40. It's '06 that bothers me.

We need to get a resolution that everyone who wishes can cast a paper ballot, rather than any paperless ballot.

[Liberty Belle]

44. Power outage on election day? Pull all the damn plugs!

[snowbear]

45. Here's the Diebold situation in Alaska...

All residents used a heavy (card-stock) paper ballot that were filled out by circling the candidate or initiative with black ink. Those forms were fed into the Diebold AccuVote System.

The Alaska Democratic Party has access to all of those ballots, as well as the numbers each polling station reported.
Diebold used each precinct and came up with their own GEMS numbering system.

Our state elections divisions went with the Diebold numbers even though they don't jive at all with the paper ballots.

But! We do have ballotts on-hand for every individual who voted. Our Alaska Democratic Headquarters has given Diebold a certain amount of time to provide them with the GEMS printouts they need to match up to the official state printouts.

So far Diebold has refused to allow the data to be seen. The State of Alaska Democratic Party WILL be filing a lawsuit against Diebold soon.

Kudos to them!! :) They are really TICKED off at what Diebold is trying to pull up here! :mad:

[Free the Press]

46. Forget the hackers. They are all on Corporate payrolls now. Just in case.

Even if whole communities band together to elect one of their own, * & CO. will defeat them!

Even if every person in the voting precinct votes by paper ballot and confirms their vote with everyone else, their vote will be flipped in the tabulator.

Even if a recount is demanded, it will not be able to be done, for some reason or another.

Therefore, you are advised to surrender now, and to go down without a fight.

You may sign your sworn statement confessing to being enemy combatants at your local FBI office, and then you shall be transported to the nearest black camp in Europe where you can be "not tortured" by definition prior to having your right to Habeas Corpus denied and being convicted without being charged or having a trial, and finally you may be terminated by lethal, but not inhuman, injection.

There is no way out.

P.S. Pay all of your bills online and in full before reporting to your local FBI office.

[in_cog_ni_to]

48. Well, that's what we said in '04. If we have enough people show up

to vote, they CAN'T steal it. They DID show up and they still stole it. IMCPO, the ONLY way to make it IMPOSSIBLE for these rat bastards to steal anymore elections is to GET RID OF THE DAMN MACHINES! They also did all this other shit....

Look at what they did in Ohio. Hundreds, maybe thousands, of people standing in lines for 10 HOURS because they refused to use more machines. They tried to stop registrations because the online forms weren't printed on the right gauged paper. They programmed the machines to flip votes. They cleared the exit polls showing Kerry ahead after a computer "glitch." They shut down buildings so people couldn't watch votes being counted. They harassed voters. People were sent to the wrong polling places. Don't forget all the shit that went on in Florida in 2000. The list goes on and on and on and on. How do you stop all the other crap they pulled?

[underscorenow]

50. indeed, that's the $64,000,000 question!

why can't we sue Diebold or somebody? ...AND WHAT'S THE DEAL WITH THE DEMOCRATS FOR ALLOWING THIS TO HAPPEN????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DuaneBidoux]

52. Victory must be by a wide margin where exit polls can't possibly be

dismissed.

[formernaderite]

53. Explain to me why democrats in democratic run counties

in democratic run states are switching over to these machines? don't they bear any responsibility? I'm sorry, you can't blame the repubs for the stupid mistakes the democrats make. Since 2000 the district I live in has switched over. In 2000, 2002 and 2004 the voting issues regularly occurred in democratically controlled districts. Now you're going to try and convince people...it's the republicans who made them buy the machines? Sorry, just won't fly. I happen to like paper ballots, I prefer punch cards actually. It's a real way of voting. But no....because some people couldn't flick off the "chads", every county that can is switching.

[blue cat]

54. I can't convice you

I'm not conviced. I think it will take to about 2010 for the majority of people to wake up about Diebold.

[Justice Is Comin]

55. I could swear I read somewhere

Diebold is filing bankruptcy.