Doesn't the fact that we're having these leadership debates piss you off?

[Strawman]

Was it really a surprise that we were going to have this majority? Couldn't this have been pretty much decided by the leadership in advance?

If Hoyer was too much of a threat to her authority in the #2 spot, why didn't Pelosi make that clear to the caucus before and get the necessary assurances on Murtha or some other Democrat who was not a threat to her? Did Murtha make sense as a choice when we know there are allegations about questionable ethics and we just won a landslide election largely on the issue of corruption. Whether those are true or false is that the way we really want to start out?

To me this whole things suggests really poor leadership and I'm worried that we're going to have a very factionalized majority, characterized by a divided leadership and strong committee chairpersons with their own little individual fiefdoms. I'm not impressed with what I'm seeing. Too many factions and the new Speaker may not be powerful enough to pick her own leadership. She's be undermined by rivals and she's not blameless either because she's not making wise choices. Disappointed in Pelosi, Hoyer, the DLC, and all the different factions looking out for their own narrow interests. Very disappointing all around.

[Le Taz Hot]

1. No, it's expected

There's been a change in the power base and everyone's posturing for position. Abstolutely nothing new under the sun here.

[Strawman]

12. Precisely

We've just rolled back the clock and are handling our business like it was 1984. Here's why we shouldn't. We have an opportunity to actually do things. One ironically created by the Republican changes to the way things get done in the House.

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewPrint&articleId=12015

[bemildred]

2. No, I'm glad Nancy is calling them out now.

She didn't get where she is now by being unperceptive.

[Strawman]

6. You don't think this majority leader thing was clumsily handled by her?

I don't blame her for not wanting Hoyer in there, but it seems as if a majority of the caucus understood that it was his job after the election. Why didn't she make it clear that's not what she wanted beforehand?

[bemildred]

25. No, I think she picked this fight, now, on purpose.

She is not being surprised here. It's the other way around. The only question is whether she had her ducks in a row before she picked the fight. I expect she thinks she did, but only the result will tell for sure.

[Strawman]

32. I hope you are right

That's a fair interpretation and I hope she prevails. The only issue then is that she'd better be prepared to live and die with Murtha. She's staking alot of her cred on him.

[bemildred]

34. The stakes are high, yes. nt

[LostinVA]

9. Good point

[aquart]

3. This is SUPPOSED to happen.

Because we're, you know, a democracy.

[Strawman]

8. Yep and we voted

And now they're supposed to govern, not have these internceine power struggles. People votes in this election on national issues. They voted for an alternative. too many of these people either don't have their shit together or have their own agendas.

[The2ndWheel]

22. Poltics is about governing, that's funny

Actually very funny.

More like being addicted to the power that the vote gives you.

But seriously, funny. Keep it up.

[Strawman]

30. Nothing wrong with the excercise of power by an effective, cohesive legislative majority

It's precisely what we'll need in this country if we're ever going to pass things like health care, living wages, etc.. Democrats are the majority. One of their greatest historical mistakes has been allowing themselves to be tied down by institutional constraints that stop them from legislating on behalf of the overwhelming majority of people in this country. Conservatives would love nothing more than for us to slow down the legislative machinery now that we are in power.

I'm sure we can count on all of these factions and dispersed people ruling their little fiefdoms to do what is in our interest. That's the way it used to be. To me that's truly a system that all about power for it's own sake. We have an historic opportunity for things to be different.

Consider this...
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewPrint&articleId=12015

Understandably, it's easy to condemn factions. But who among the 235 Dem representatives gets to deicide who leads who wields power? Power is not a dirty word. We have it as the result of an election. Are we gonna just piss it away so Congressman So-and-So can get what he wants by playing the Hoyer faction off the Pelosi faction. I don't see what's noble about that. I think the best way to do it is to elect a Speaker and let her lead the majority and not undercut her authority. But she has a responsibility to lead effectively also. It seems to me like she didn't make it clear what she wanted in terms of her leadership team until after Hoyer had locked up a majority of votes.

[Cosmocat]

27. How about that ???

First, do you think for one second there was not blood letting in the republican party over this kind of stuff ??? It just does not fit into the MSM meme ... Republicans disciplined, Democrats have inner defeatists ... The same stuff happens on both sides, it just is viewed/spun differently ...

Second, the republicans hide EVERYTHING ... Part of the process is transparency ... Better to know some of this, than to have this concerted effort to hide EVERYTHING from the public ...

[blm]

4. If you're against corruption, then you'd be against the coverup wing of the Dem party

and it seems to me that is the side of the party that is lining up against Murtha and others for withdrawal from Iraq.

[Strawman]

10. I am against them

I support withdrawl from Iraq. This has nothing to do with that.

[blm]

13. It has everything to do with it. If Murtha hadn't called for withdrawal, he wouldn't

be targeted for takedown by the centrists right now.

[Strawman]

16. I don't believe that

It's about two things: independent charges of questionable ethical practices, and those who think that Pelosi doesn't have the right to truly lead. I think she does. I just wish she had settled this with the members of the caucus before the election.

I'll take Murtha over Hoyer. I do not want a divided leadership. I want Nancy Pelosi to be the leader .Now that the Speaker has staked her authority on his candidacy, I hope he wins. I also hope he is a smart choice.

But the whole thing seems very clumsily handled by her. I hope her authority survives this so she can guide an effective majority. I want her to succeed, not the DLC.

[blm]

18. Everything is clumsy in politics - the media can turn the smoothest moves into

slick and oily or a major gaffe, depending on what direction their bosses tell them to go.

[ieoeja]

26. A lot of those caucus members were not.

1. Who cares? Okay, you obviously do. But I really don't understand why. They have all these positions to be filled. Anyone in congress who wants one of these positions is entitled to run. They campaign for it. The members vote. I don't see the big deal.

2. Before the election a lot of those members were not members of the caucus.

[madinmaryland]

5. Haven't we always been that way.

Besides, we have not been in power for 12 years, so there are going to be some battles. Let's have our team hash out who they want, vote, and then move on. At least we are a party of discussion!

[Strawman]

23. Discussion is great

Factions that place their interest above the party and the prospects for advancing its agenda are not.

[Hoosier Dem]

7. As Will Rogers said..

"I don't belong to any organized political party; I'm a Democrat." This is just par for the course for us. Agreed, Pelosi could have handled it better than she has.

I think we got a break today when the Republicans chose TRENT LOTT to be their number two man in the Senate. Won't the idiots ever get it?????

As much as I loathe Tucker Carlson, he did have a good line yesterday: "Well, didn't take the Democrats in the House long to convene their first circular firing squad."

We;ll get past this and we'll be a better party because of it.

[ClassWarrior]

11. Of course not! This is democracy at work! Boo-yah!

NGU.

[Strawman]

14. Will we be directly choosing any of these people?

Is the freshman class of Dem House members deciding this?

What is happening in an ugly public battle that couldn't have been settled before the electionby the same power brokers that will settle it now?

[grizmaster]

19. how could it have been settled before the House members

were elected that have to vote for the positions?

[Strawman]

20. We knew who was going to be elected

Most of the Democratic incumbents and even many challengers who were way ahead in the polls. Besides, is it really the freshmen members that will decide this? Aren't there certian key people and factions that Pelosi could have gotten onboard to endorse her desired leadership slate if she only had better foresight?

[grizmaster]

29. I'm sure the key people with safe seats

were in on this way before we heard about it. But that still leaves the fact that there was no guarantee about who would win or lose. You can't do a head count till all the heads have been elected.

[ClassWarrior]

33. Cripes, why are people so afraid of debate?

Does the Radical RW really have us this paralyzed?

NGU.

[theoldman]

15. It always takes time for things to settle down.

In the end it will not be perfect but there will always be time for corrections. Think about all of the changes that were made when the Republicans were in power. Let's just hope that not as many Democrats will screw up.

[grizmaster]

17. It's a good sign

It means Pelosi is following through on her commitments.

And it also shows that dems other than Murtha can count on Pelosi to stick by dems who take a stand for what's right like Murtha did.

[Strawman]

21. If that's true, yes

But my sense from what I had seen was that there was a belief among the cacus members that the #2 job was Steny's.

[grizmaster]

28. He's next in line

but that doesn't guarantee him the job or say much about how much he deserves the job.


Another good thing that comes out of Pelosi doing this is that it reminds all the other House dems that loyalty can trump seniority. That should help put a little backbone in the caucus.

[stopbush]

24. Were it not for the 24/7 news watch, this NORMAL process wouldn't rate

even a footnote in the nightly news report.

This is how it has always been. It's democracy in action. At some point, Congress critters need to draw
the line on how much they will alter or hide their NORMAL processes just to avoid the appearance of
"conflict." This is the type of story that will end as soon as the voting takes place.

I wonder how many people could do their normal jobs if every single action they took during their workday
was under the microscope of a bunch of pundits who need to get real lives.

Typical tempest in a teapot.

[Strawman]

31. That's a historically accurate point

But we can't blame the reality of the times we're living in for a lack of foresight in adapting to them. It's not 1978 and these aren't "normal jobs."

What convinces you the conflict will end after the vote takes place? If Pelosi loses here, you don't think that undercuts her authority? I would contend that her authority is a very important thing.

If there is a real conflict, I suppose you are right. It can't be hidden from view, but I don't think it would be unwise to avoid a conflict that potentially undercuts the authority of the new speaker. To me, that's important political capital and Steny or Murtha getting their just deserts doesn't trump it.

I hope you're right. And if it's a mere disagreement, it will fade away. But if it's a challenge and a test, I worry about what this means.

[stopbush]

36. I don't think Pelosi loses here, no matter what the outcome.

Personally, I would prefer that Hoyer got the job. He did a ton of work to get Ds elected this cycle He's a well-spoken advocate
for the Ds, and he's not a single-issue person as is Murtha *at this point in time.*

I wouldn't put too much into this small fry story. Events on the ground in Iraq will overshadow any insider story coming out of
DC right now.

[hippiechick]

35. Yes

n/t