to all those who disparage "Conspiracy Theorists" here on DU: chew on THIS:

[Lerkfish]

OUTING A CIA COVERT AGENT
It is a known conspiracy involving more than one person without broad public knowledge to:
A. leak the identity of Valerie Plame to several reporters in order to punish Joe Wilson
B. Deny the leak occurred from the administration, lying to the public and congress
C. Shut down an ongoing covert operation to detect and interdict programs of weapons of mass destruction.
D. Instruct underlings to lie under oath to a grand jury to protect upperllings in the administration

US ATTORNEY FIRINGS
It is a known conspiracy involving more than one person without broad public knowledge to:
A. Remove existing USattys unwilling to act ENOUGH as partisan political operatives, and replace them with loyalist willing to do so.
B. Lie to the public about the job performance of said removed USattys
C. Have underlings either lie under oath to congress, or refuse to testify to congress.
D. Possibly committing obstruction of justice by removing USattys involved in investigating republicans, like Abramoff and Cunningham.
E. Possibly as part of an overall scheme to game the 2008 elections.
F. This was accomplished, in part, by sneaking a provision into the patriot act under cover of night and without informing congress that allowed the president to remove and replace USattys without congressional approval.

SPECIAL RENDITION OF DETAINEES FOR PURPOSES OF TORTURE
It is a known conspiracy involving more than one person without broad public knowledge to:
A. Special planes, using several airports in various NATO countries, often without knowledge in the individual countries, under cover of secrecy illegally transported prisoners to locations like Syria and Egypt with the intent of torturing those prisoners against the Geneva Convention and not on US soil.
B. Gonzales crafted a legal justification for allowing torture, abolishing habeas corpus, and relegating detainees to perpetual imprisonment without trial until their deaths, to circumvent the US constitution and Geneva Conventions.
C. Lie to the american public about the nature of the offenses of said detainees, which as it turned out later more than one third were released for being innocent of charges that were never brought.
D. Falsely Dishonorably discharge a chaplain at Gitmo who brought to light some of the offenses occurring there, in an effort to silence and coverup those abuses.

EXTORTION AND MALFEASANCE DURING NATURAL DISASTER
It is a known conspiracy involving more than one person without broad public knowledge to:
A. Threaten a public official with witholding desperately needed assistance for victims of Hurrican Katrina, unless she turned over her state to the federal troops waiting outside the disaster area, in violation of Posse Comitas and obliterating state's rights. In effect, martial law.
B. Lie to the american people that certain programs, headed up by a Karl Rove, would administer sufficient funds to rebuild New Orleans. Those funds and that program failed to materialize
C. Lie to the american people that prior knowledge of the strength of the damage could not have been known ahead of time, when in fact they were warned by experts of that very eventuality.
D. Brought in, without congressional approval or oversight, Blackwater mercenaries to "keep the peace", with advanced crowd control equipment.
E. Prevented any non-federal groups from effecting rescue or providing equipment.
F. Deny events on the ground, or intentionally mischaracterize them, even in spite of news broadcasts presenting contrary evidence.
G. Suppress actual victim counts, even to this day, of how many people were lost in the tragedy.
H. Coverup previous assessments of the risk and danger of a type 5 hurricane as nonexistent, when they in fact existed.

FALSELY CLAIMING IRONCLAD INTELLIGENCE OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ
It is a known conspiracy involving more than one person without broad public knowledge to:
A. Ignore intelligence provided by normal agencies that indicated a lack of WMDs in Iraq, and to KNOWINGLY use "cooked" or outright counterfeit intelligence, even when protested by intelligence agencies in the State of the Union Speech.
B. Use Colin Powell to lie and present false evidence to the UN security council with the intent purpose of affecting sanctions and then use those as justifications to regime change Iraq, when they knew the evidence was false.
C. lie to congress and the american people in order to pressure congress to pass legislation giving Bush a carte blanche to invade or attack any country on his own volition.

-----------

There are many, many more, evidence of conspiracies within this administration which hopefully other dutiful DU members will affix to this thread.

My point is: instead of belittling what you consider "conpiracy theorists" outright, it would behoove you to consider the KNOWN CONSPIRACIES already committed by this administration, and those are only the ones we know about. Your energies might be better spent helping us track down the actual conspiracies as we discover them.

thanks for you kind attention.

[whistle]

1. Well done Lerkfish, thank you

[ms liberty]

2. An excellent indictment of this criminal cabal...K&R n/t

[FourScore]

3. Well said, Lerkfish!!!

And as we all know, these are the "tamer conspiracies" committed by this administration. (Of course, I am making reference to that-which-cannot-be-named without being banned to the dungeon of DU.)

[trotsky]

4. Much like "steak" can mean...

a tough 8-oz. piece of leather from the buffet table or a 16-oz. sirloin so tender you can cut it with a butter knife, "conspiracy theory" can mean wildly different things. The existence of lots of 8-oz. hockey pucks at a steakhouse doesn't necessarily mean they serve those prime cuts too.

[FourScore]

6. That doesn't mean the prime rib cuts don't exist. n/t

[trotsky]

40. Good job missing the point!

:thumbsup:

[FourScore]

45. Actually, I did get the point

Agreeably, however, I was clumsy in my reply...

You were trying to differentiate between true conspiracies and "conspiracy theories" by using the steak house analogy. I think that analogy is is exactly what the OP is argueing against. Many reasonable people have questions about events during the last 6+ years that deserve answers. To respond to those questions with the "conspiracy" claim is just an avoidance, and an intentional insult to the person looking for answers.

You may not agree with some of the other "conspiracy theories" that are out there, clearly Lerkfish left them unnamed for good reason. However, many reasonable people agree that other large-scale conspiracies have occured -- prime cut ones, if you will.

I can remember discussing the discrepancies in the 2004 exit-poll data and electronic voting results with people only to hear the "conspiracy" argument come back at me. Now we all know how easily hackable those machines really are. My own republican, Washington-insider bro-in-law now believes that the election was stolen. His statement now? "So what? It's not the first time in our nation's history." But at the time it occured, I was told I was a "conspiracy theorist".

That's just not a valid argument.

[trotsky]

64. But I don't see anyone disparaging these run-of-the-mill conspiracies.

So I'm not sure why your extended response applies.

[orleans]

79. as an aside: your brother in law's flip remark:

"So what? It's not the first time in our nation's history." reminds me of someone i know who has defended bush etc. to the hilt since day one.

now, her love for them is beginning to fade and she, instead of angrily defending them, replies with remarks like: "they all lie" (implying dems too), "they all cheat", "they are all crooks."

too bad she still can't stop justifying their criminal behavior -- drives me crazy.

[emmadoggy]

119. Those are the EXACT same comments I get from members of my family too..

Including my Mom who is a Democrat! Drives me crazy.

Add to the above comments, "there's nothing you or I can do about it." :eyes: :banghead:

[StClone]

60. Steak and Apple

The biggest plum of conspiracy theory is the 9/11 attack on the Big Apple. None of the above conspiracies include:

1) Massive death of ordinary American Civilians on American soil.
2) Cross complicity of military, select government officials and international operatives on U.S. soil.
3) Operations in full daytime/daylight, live TV conditions viewed and images recorded by millions.
4) No charges for conspirators except the accepted suspects (most are dead).
5) Loss of many billions (though there was gain of millions by some) by the wealthy Americans.

The Freepits have it right when the say this was the biggest attack on American soil since Pearl Harbor. But it was a well-planned terror attack not an act of war. The only conspiracy was to cover-up the incompetence of our great Bush King to protect us.

[truedelphi]

74. Agreed.However point 3 should include a point 3A

That some of the graphics(video images) were not of the live event but were graphic footage commissioned for 9/11's war games (I am especially speaking of the video where the plane "shimmers', the building "shimmers" and then the plane is absorbed by the Tower into its insides.

[Beam Me Up]

108. How you can call successful policy implantation "incompetence" is

beyond me. I'm not saying they haven't made huge mistakes but the fact is they got their war on as they intended and they had the Patriot Act ready to go. Moreover, they've managed to, first, prevent and then manage official inquiry into the events that predicated it all. That isn't incompetence, that is success.

[CJCRANE]

5. Warrantless wiretapping n/t

[Lerkfish]

9. thanks for adding to the list!

:toast:

[KoKo]

7. True....we find out more and more how much conspiring has gone

on as the investigations begin. We will probably find out at some point that even the "BIG ONE" (that must remain unmentioned) was true.

[kma3346]

8. Wow!

I'm right there with you on this. If only the so-called "mainstream media" would do this sort of analysis and representation of the FACTS!! Thank you for this, Lerkfish.

[rosesaylavee]

10. Thank you for your research ...

A few others are:

Abramoff
Duke Cunningham
Ohio Elections(2000 & 2004 & 2006)
Florida Elections (2000 & 2004 & 2006)
Diebold/ES&S Software programming
AND, won't list the big one that will get this relegated to a certain forum.

[Lerkfish]

11. thanks for adding to the list. And yes, I'm attempting to only list KNOWN conspiracies

to keep this where it is, thanks.

[rateyes]

16. wrong place...sorry.

[Lerkfish]

17. good one! unfortunately, we don't yet know enough of that entire case, by design, to

label it a "known conspiracy", although, obviously it is.

[rateyes]

19. Yeah, you're right...I rewrote my post in response to the OP..

you are fast on the draw!!

[pat_k]

96. Boils down to 1) treasonous claim to absolute power 2) abuse of power to steal elections.

Re:

(1) They claim absolute power to break the law to "protect us" -- then break the law to prove it. They are daring Congress to stop them. When Congress fails, they say "See? We've proven it. The power of "the decider" is unlimited." (more on this http://journals.democraticunderground.com/pat_k/22)

(2) They abuse power to corrupt the justice dept to steal elections. Prosecutor-gate is just one of a long line of abuses -- abuses that all have the same aim. (e.g., see http://january6th.org/acosta.html)

[rhiannon55]

12. Thank you for this, Lerkfish

I, too have often wondered why some conspiracies are considered to be okay to notice and contemplate and discuss, while others require the donning of the ol' tinfoil hat. Considering what those criminals in the WH have done to our country and the world (just the things we KNOW to be true), it amazes me that anyone would simply dismiss as a crackpot conspiracy theory ANYTHING those bastards might do. In the last eight years I have learned that these people are capable of many, many extremely nefarious things.

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

13. Nice job, Lerkfish...How about those color coded terror alerts..

that were politically motivated to scare the American public.

[Lerkfish]

14. good addition! especially since the outgoing DHS director admitted to that conspiracy.

I"ve already forgotten the guy's name! LOL.

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

26. Was that Tom Ridge?

The Color-Coded Fear Factor
Terror Alerts raise Blood Pressure, close Streets and scare up a Few Votes

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0809-05.htm

snip:
With the warning coming as Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry and running mate John Edwards set off on a cross-country campaign trip to celebrate their nomination and court votes in the battleground states, some Democrats publicly suggested that Bush & Co. timed the release of the upgraded security threat to draw attention away from the White House wannabes.

Nonsense. Bush wouldn't tamper with the nation's fragile psyche over terrorism any more than he would rush to war in Iraq on the basis of phony intelligence reports that Saddam Hussein had a stockpile of weapons of mass destruction.

In his initial announcement that American forces had seized computer disks detailing al-Qaida's surveillance of government and corporate targets in Washington, New York and New Jersey, Ridge failed to mention that plans were more than three years old, that none of the documents discovered was dated after Sept. 11, 2001.
snip:

hmmmmmmm

[Straight Shooter]

15. If anyone scoffs at the word "conspiracy," just counter with the word "scheme."

It's the same thing, basically. I have known people to roll their eyes at me and tell me in disparaging terms that I'm a "conspiracy nut," and I just look at them and say, "Okay, call it a scheme, then." They usually sputter at that point.

All government administrations have been rife with conspiracies. People simply don't acquire that kind of power without "scheming" to get it or "scheming" to keep it and use it.

I've never understood the big brouhaha over the word "conspiracy." It happens every day, such as when kids in high school conspire to begin rumors against someone they don't like, when someone like Rove conspires to push poll against someone like McCain in the 2000 election campaign, like when two people in a work environment conspire to make someone's life hell so that person will quit their job.

Drudge and Politico conspire to catapult the right wing propaganda. They pretend to be journalistic in their approach, but their agenda speaks otherwise.

Life is filled with conspiracies.

[solara]

35. Good counter word..thanks

:kick:


INVESTIGATE IMPEACH INDICT IMPRECATE INCARCERATE IMPALE INCINERATE :patriot:

[immoderate]

56. "Scam" works well too.

One of my old friends often greeted people with, "What's the scam?"

To him, everything, in some way, was a scam, or part of a scam. And to the extent that all large endeavors require some theater and ceremony and artful misdirection, he was right. And everybody else buys in.

Interestingly, there are many activities, which are considered scams, that are not illegal. But if people conspire to implement them, that's a felony.

-IMM

[rateyes]

18. Silencing Sibel Edmonds. nt

[rateyes]

20. Falsifying the true cost of the prescription drug bill

to get it passed.

[solara]

21. Thank you for taking the time to assemble this information

Since there are so many proven conspiracies attached to this administration and certainly there are more to come, it is important to remove the onus attached to the word.

The word 'conspiracy' or the phrase 'conspiracy theory' should not automatically mean "tin-foil hat time"...the "mainstream" spin on this administration is far more preposterous than any of the above conspiracies.

:kick: & rec


INVESTIGATE IMPEACH INDICT IMPRECATE INCARCERATE IMPALE INCINERATE :patriot:

[Straight Shooter]

46. It's not a "tinfoil hat." It's a bullshit detector.

Wear it with pride. :D

[FourScore]

47. Wonderful!!!

Count me in!:tinfoilhat:

[Lerkfish]

52. yup, my "bullshit detector" has been pinging full time since 2000

and it has been RIGHT nearly every time. OF course, it helps when there is so much bullshit to detect.

[The Doctor.]

88. When I started talking about the conspiracies of this administration

Ma Eldritch said, "Well, most conspiracy theories turn out to be wrong."

I said, "No, most conspiracy theories stop being conspiracy theories once the facts are known, then they are 'crimes'.

That's the only diffence; a conspiracy 'theory' only exists in the absence of all the crucial facts.

[hootinholler]

22. National Security Letter abuses!

Recommended. A list is a great place to start.

:tinfoilhat:

-Hoot

[MonkeyFunk]

23. And yet

the public knew about those things within a very reasonable amount of time, which argues AGAINST largescale, successful government conspiracies. People can't shut up.

They're not the same as Area 51 UFOs, or giant space-lasers destroying the WTC.

[Nederland]

48. Good Point

There is a huge difference between leaking the identity of Valerie Plame and MIHOP.

[FiveGoodMen]

75. There certainly is!

One has been confirmed and the other is still awaiting a proper investigation.

[Chemical Bill]

78. People can't shut up.

>the public knew about those things within a very reasonable amount of time, which argues AGAINST largescale, successful government conspiracies.

I disagree on both counts. People knew, and have talked about many abnormalities in 9/11 that point to, at the very least, an official cover up. MIHOP deserves a thorough investigation. Even if MIHOP never reaches the public debate, there is no reason to rule it out unless all the evidence unquestionably rules it out. Further, there only need be a few select people to carry out MIHOP. Large scale is not the only option.

Last but not least, the straw man of "giant space-lasers destroying the WTC" is not appreciated. Please present your point without such insults.

Bill

[MonkeyFunk]

84. It's an actual

theory proposed by some people regarding the destructon of the WTC.

Others posit "mini-nukes".

It's not my fault the crazies are on your side.

[Chemical Bill]

87. Did Lerkfish say it?

No, so it's a straw man.

Anyway, if one person says something you don't believe you discount the whole MIHOP movement? Thanks for clarifying that.

Bill

[MonkeyFunk]

90. No

But I never said Lerkfish said it. That makes your accusation of strawmanness a strawman! And btw, people should stop using that word here, because they rarely use it correctly.


My discounting of the MIHOP "movement" is based on far more than one person saying one thing I don't believe. It's a whole lot of people saying a whole lot of things that are ridiculous on their face.

[HamdenRice]

99. There are far, far more crazies on your side

Your argument is guilt by association. Don't you realize that if you believe the official story, then "your side" includes all the fundamentalist Christians who believe everything the bush administration tells them but also believe that they and bush are going to be raptured up to heaven shortly?

So do you must also believe that bush has personal conversations with Jesus every night, and that god is guiding bush's every move?

[glitch]

121. Sweet! nt

[mod mom]

24. OH Election:

We were even called conspiracy theorists by Dem members of the BOE Bill Anthony testimony at House Administration Hearing:

As I wrap-up my testimony, Mr. Chairman, I would like to address two situations in Franklin County that have been taken up by the conspiracy-theorists and internet-bloggers alike as quote-unquote evidence of fraud and their reason why Franklin County’s and Ohio’s election results cannot be trusted. Regrettably, even Ohio’s Secretary of State and some of our fellow elections officials have joined their lot in wrongly blaming the statewide recount on these events in Franklin County. These two situations are, of course, the long-lines at voting locations allegedly due to the intentional misallocation of voting machines and the misreported, unofficial election night results from one of our county’s precincts.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, there were long lines to vote in Franklin County – in all of Franklin County. Some have alleged Republicans at the Board of Elections or Matt Damschroder himself intentionally caused these lines and that those precincts in predominantly African-American and-or Democrat precincts were deliberately targeted for a reduction in voting machines. I can assure you Mr. Chairman, both as a leader in the black community, Chairman of the local Democratic Party, and as Chairman of the Board of Elections that not one of these accusations are true. On Election Day, I spent several hours driving around the county in the rain and observed long lines in every part of the county: urban and suburban neighborhoods, black and white communities, Democrat and Republican precincts. These lines were the result of three things and these three things only. First, nearly one hundred thousand more people voted on Election Day 2004 than during 2000 – this is almost a 25% percent increase over the previous presidential election. Which brings me to the second reason. Despite the fact that we had a dramatic and historic increase in the number of voters compared to previous elections the resources available to the Board of Elections remained static. In 2000, the Board of Elections owned an inventory of 2,904 voting machines for 680,000 registered voters in 759 precincts. Four years later, in 2004, the Board of Elections owned an inventory of 2,904 voting machines – the exact same number of voting machines as in 2000 – a static resource that had to be spread even thinner to meet the increased demand of voting machines for 847,000 registered voters in 788 precincts.

Could we have purchased or leased more machines? No. With the passage of HAVA by Congress and Ohio’s House Bill 262 requiring a Voter Verifiable Paper Audit Trail, all previously discussed plans to purchase additional machines were cancelled for implementation in 2004. Third, and finally, the 2004 General Election ballot was exceptionally lengthy. In addition to the federal contests, voters in Franklin County had to vote on as many as 58 candidates and questions – including 19 judicial contests. In the City of Columbus, the situation was the worst with 8 long bond issue questions and a referendum in addition to State Issue One, school levies, and local options. It is conceivable that most Columbus voters took longer than the five minutes provided for in Ohio law to vote their ballot.

-snip

http://cha.house.gov/hearings/Testimony.aspx?TID=668



YET REP CONYERS FOUND THERE TO BE MISALLOCATION OF VOTING MACHINES:

Fixing America's Broken Elections
Rep. John Conyers, Jr.
February 08, 2005

My staff reviewed thousands of pages of primary source materials, including copies of actual ballots, voter registration databases, and poll books. They also met with several individuals having firsthand knowledge of irregularities. What they found indicated problems in multiple areas, from machine tampering and malfunction, to the intimidation and caging of minority voters in urban and rural areas, to the purposeful misallocation of voting machines and the unjustifiable restrictions that were placed on the use of provisional ballots.


http://www.tompaine.com/articles/fixing_americas_broken_elections.php

[warren pease]

59. With Dems like this...

who needs the GOP?

wp

[rman]

25. Election Fraud 2000: the official DU Conspiracy Theory,

or conspiracy fact, if you will.

[TheBaldyMan]

98. are you claiming that Bush won the 2000 election fair and square?

I'd like to give you the chance to make your meaning crystal clear before I say anything else.

[the other one]

27. K & R (and thanks) nt

[rman]

28. oldies: Watergate, Iran/Contra, Gulf of Tonkin

[blm]

31. Yes - Dick Cheney attacked John Kerry as a 'conspiracy theory nut' about IranContra and BCCI -

and look who turned out to be the one telling the truth.

When people here at DU try to smear solid researched evidence as 'conspiracy theory' it makes me wonder WHO they are actually supporting with their derisive comments? The Democratic party and the Citizens of this nation or the Corporate wing of the Democratic party aligned with the global fascist agenda of BushInc?

[EVDebs]

44. Se post #38 LOL ! nt

[FourScore]

29. Falsifying the EPA report after 911. n/t

[AndyA]

30. I wouldn't put anything past these criminals.

The Bush Crime Family™ has been sucking the public tit for decades.

Go all the way back to Granddaddy Bush who helped the Nazis. Nice family. Upstanding and wholesome they ain't.

[hootinholler]

32. Ohio Recounts.

New SOS in Ohio has exposed and documented obstruction of lawful recounts in 2004 election.

-Hoot

[CrazyOrangeCat]

33. K&R

Bookmarked.

[Nite Owl]

34. Thanks Lerkfish

There is a pattern with the right/msm, what they shout the loudest about, the names and labels they try to give the left, that's what they are doing: they say we don't support the troops? They sure don't; They say we are fiscally irresponsible, tax and spend? Look at what they have done; they are pro life? While letting people die in war and poverty and without health care, I think not. Christian? They are anything but. So of course they would call us the conspiracy theorists because that is what they are most involved with, they conspire to limit our knowledge and redo the democracy we love and cherish and turn us into a fascist state while proclaiming that they are the patriots.

[Uncle Joe]

36. Kicked and recommended

Thanks for the thread Lerkfish

[NoSheep]

37. Thanks for this.

[EVDebs]

38. Since BCCI has already been outed, this AlterNet article re Bush and OBL

The Evidence Is There: It’s Time for Congress to Investigate the Ties Between the Bush Family and Osama bin Laden
How the Bush family's private connection to a dirty offshore bank is the only link between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein

By Lucy Komisar, IPS News. Posted April 5, 2007.

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/50156/

Isn't exactly in the realm of fantasy or conjecture anymore, is it Dorothy ?

[SaveElmer]

39. I don't disparage all conspiracy theories...

There certainly are conspiracies...Lincoln's assassination was a conspiracy, for example...

What I disparage are wild conspiracy theories that rely on bogus and usually unprovable information, that are demonstrably ridiculous on the face. I won't list them here because I don't want to hijack the thread on a specific one...

These theories require extraordinary evidence to make the case...evidence that is almost never forthcoming...

[trotsky]

41. Thank you.

Well said.

[krkaufman]

55. Yes, there's a marked difference between fact- and faith-based conspiracy analysis. n/t

[warren pease]

67. Agreed, but...

just because there are conspiracy "nuts" doesn't mean there aren't conspiracies. But these two absolutely unrelated phenomena get lumped together by "serious, objective analysis" until the two become one in the collective american consciousness.

So any mention of a conspiracy, even if it's something as obvious and intuitive as oil companies conspiring to fix the price of regular in the Bay Area over Labor Day weekend, immediately triggers the appropriate conditioned response and the "nut" warning goes off. Then the eyes glaze over, the nervous smile appears, a pointed look at the watch and suddenly it's time to pick up the kiddies.

Thus it ever was, all the way back to 1963 in my personal history, and probably back to the first time two Neanderthals decided to gang up on the third guy and steal his rack of mastodon.


wp

[Flarney]

42. Considering Iraq is a far worse disaster than 9/11, I don't see how

...any conspiracy theory can be dismissed out of hand. Agreed, we need to follow all evidence wherever it leads.

AHEM: The 9/11 Commission report dismissed the large amount of put options placed on United and American airlines in the days prior to 9/11 by saying "A single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10.

Anyone see anything wrong with that statement?

[windbreeze]

43. bookmarking this thread...Thank YOU!! n/t

[Eurobabe]

49. Coming soon: FDA, USDA fall flat, allow poisoned food on US tables

from GMOs, Mad Cows, whatever.

Thanks for sticking up for us "conspiracy theorists." WTF is wrong with those who despise creative brainstorming? If it weren't for some asking probing questions, perhaps some of these crimes would still remain a secret.

Great thread Lerkfish :hi:

K&R

[Lerkfish]

50. thanks to everyone for posting and reccomending this thread.

I'll try by the end of the day to do an addendum, in the same format, of the suggested additions.
I want to give large groups of people a change to suggest eoungh additional items for a larger list.

I am encouraged by the numbers of reccomendations, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

with this administration, oversight is a moral imperative.

[Jeroen]

51. K&R

[liberal renegade]

53. Excellen'te!

Why is he still in office? Should'a been gone a long time ago....

sheesh!

[rinsd]

54. Yup that means controlled demo, chem trails and weather control are real!

:eyes:

[Greyhound]

58. What compelled you to post this reply? It contributes nothing and

implies that you include the listed conspiracies with these outlandish examples.
:kick: & R

[rinsd]

62. That's the point.

The label conspiracy theorist wasn't ascribed to these positions(not that I saw on DU at least).

But people who hold the outlandish examples I provided to be the truth are conspiracy theorists and for quite a few of them deserve the ridicule they receive.

[arikara]

72. In the words of one of the greatest conspirers...

"...as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."

[Flarney]

63. This is controlled demo:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5653955826753385916&hl=en-GB

That is not a building badly damaged on one side, engulfed in flames that finally succumbed to structural failure and fell over or crumbled down to the ground asymmetrically...it does, however exhibit all of these features which are present in controlled demolition:

* The roofs dips inward
* Explosions are visible running up on the right side
* Explosions are visible in the front
* Simultaneous symmetrical collapse (all joints fail at the same time)
* Falls at free-fall speed
* Falls into its own footprint without damaging surrounding buildings

We need a real investigation into what happened that day, IMHO.

[rinsd]

66. "We need a real investigation into what happened that day"

This I agree with.

You can keep your tin foil hat for the rest of the nonsense.

[Flarney]

76. "It looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, but it could not possibley be a duck."

"To even consider that a possibility is foolish and unsophisticated."

<sigh>

[Lerkfish]

69. faulty logic

I have not made any such claims in this thread as you suggest.
As I stated clearly in the OP, I wanted a list of KNOWN CONSPIRACIES.

[rinsd]

73. Your point was don't make fun of the conspiracy theorists wasn't it?

Because you showed examples of real conspiracies right?

Except I never saw anyone on DU refer to what you put up as conspiracy theories.

[Lerkfish]

85. Well, my point was clearly stated

My point is: instead of belittling what you consider "conpiracy theorists" outright, it would behoove you to consider the KNOWN CONSPIRACIES already committed by this administration, and those are only the ones we know about. Your energies might be better spent helping us track down the actual conspiracies as we discover them.

I can see where you might be confused since my point starts with "My point is...."


My point was NOT that chemtrails, etc. are therefore real because the conspiracies I stated were known conspiracies. You came up with that conclusion on your own, inappropriately.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

106. Your broad brush reeks. Time to get one that isn't putrified by such stench. n/t

[tom_paine]

57. I don't think you could have said that any better

:toast:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

61. Mhmm...

All very nice. All very much supported by evidence, which is the primary difference between an actual conspiracy and a conspiracy theory. Actually, "theory" isn't really even the correct word for what goes on in the dungeon, because theories generally require some kind of supporting evidence. How about we agree to a new term, eh? Instead of calling them "Conspiracy Theories" we'll use something more precise - "Baseless, Unsubstantiated, Logically-Lacking Screeds of Hysterical, Incoherent Tripe."

And in order to avert carpal tunnel syndrome, we will simply refer to them using the convenient acronym, "BULLSHIT."

[mhatrw]

101. How about the Saddam statue psyop? Half of DU was claiming this was a

"conspiracy theory." Now it has been admitted.

How about the EPA's air quality at Ground Zero lies? The "dirty bomber" claims? Pat Tillman's death? Saving Private Lynch? Abu Ghraib?

You pretend there is some sort of big difference when the biggest difference is between completely proven and yet to be proven.

[The Count]

65. It's the standard dismissive response from the GOP

That being said, one has to be careful with the facts one accepts - the "no plane at the Pentagon on 9.11" comes to mind. There were actual witnesses posting, but the proponents wouldn't let it go.

[Gregorian]

68. Innocent until proven guilty; Skeptical until proven otherwise.

I've been thinking of skepticism a lot lately. It's sorely missing in much of this society. I hope we don't need a total crisis (other than the one we're enduring now) to plant the seeds of skepticism.


One thing I've learned on DU is skepticism. In engineering classes I learned that just because something comes out of a computer it doesn't mean it's correct. And now I've learned that because something isn't in the media doesn't mean it isn't important.

[elehhhhna]

70. Superb.

K&R

[lies and propaganda]

71. Triple kicked!!! Lovely post!

this tinfoiler doesnt see anything kooky about this ;)

[earth mom]

77. K & R...though...

I really hate having to skirt around talking about the elephant in the room.

[Hissyspit]

80. Hillary said something to the effect the other day that those who made fun

of her "vast right-wing conspiracy" comments had been proven wrong. I forget exactly which recent conspiracy she was talking about, though.

[Chemical Bill]

81. Heroin smuggling by the CIA during Vietnam...

as detailed by Alfred McCoy in "The Politics of Heroin".

Cocaine smuggling by the contras as admitted to Congress by the CIA.

Bill

[bagrman]

111. Heroin smuggling out of Afganistan.

[nashville_brook]

CIA hires terrorist group to operate in Iran (actually, CIA-anything)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x578036

[warren pease]

82. And then there's 9/11...

Ahhh. I knew that would catch your eye. But here's the thing: I don't think threads containing serious discussion of 9/11 issues should be automatically consigned to the dungeon. And that's because I think it's generally understood that 9/11 is the to BushCo, the foundation on which it's based all its claims to legitimacy. Get rid of 9/11 and you get rid of the justification for just about everything they've done since, domestically and internationally.

I should stress that I haven't suddenly been granted access to the "inner circle" -- if such exists -- and that I don't know "the truth" about 9/11 any more than any other observer knows exactly what happened. I have my suspicions and I've done a ridiculous amount of reading, but I don't "know" what really happened in the way that I "know" it's a mild day with high clouds and a light breeze.

But I do know this: BushCo was already tanking in the polls by summer 2001 -- under 50 percent approval if I remember correctly. The economy was lousy, unemployment was up, Bush himself was increasingly seen as an inept moron, and lots of people started talking about the 2000 election theft as a real possibility. Not on CNN or Fox or the other networks, of course, but in bars and coffee shops and in line at the supermarket. The anti-BushCo grumbling was getting louder.

Suddenly, through the catalyzing events of 9/11, Bush was transformed overnight into a warrior-statesman, a symbol of american bravery, the right leader for these dangerous times -- and thank god Al Gore wasn't president. And Bush immediately began using the mantra that's been repeated tens of thousands of times since: "Everything changed on 9/11." And then we started hearing, "If we don't (fill in your favorite dead Constitutional freedom here), the terrorists win." You know the drill.

So BushCo experienced an extraordinary stroke of luck on 9/11 -- and the word "luck" used this way is both repellent and probable -- because it enabled them to justify and implement a program of war abroad and repression at home, complete with the zillion-page patriot act which just happened to be fully written and sitting around in the bottom desk drawer in case the otherwise benevolent administration suddenly decided on a whim to transform the country to an instant corporatist oligarchy.

And if it wasn't random chance, then you have to admit the possibility that they made their own luck.

As I said above, I don't claim to have unique knowledge or an inside track on the truth about 9/11. But I don't think any serious person can deny the thesis that 9/11 was the single galvanizing event that allowed BushCo to go full speed ahead with its totalitarian agenda, and manufacture the consent of the people in the process.

Flame away if you must, but please note that I insist I don't have any better idea of what actually happened than anyone else here (and probably less). I've only got a set of public-domain facts, interpretations of those facts, the behavior patterns of the administration over time, and the way that behavior manifests itself in the form of military action, legislation, criminality, signing statements and so on. And they all serve the goal of consolidating power in the unitary executive and keeping unpleasant facts away from the normal systems of oversight.


wp

[Rosa Luxemburg]

86. don't even suggest there weren't hijackers with red bandanas!

[warren pease]

91. Well, Condi told us they were expecting "traditional" hijackers...

And their fashion statements give them away. In the old days, traditional hijackers wore fringed leather vests and bandoleers along with the red bandannas. Their leaders brandished automatic weapons as their accomplices glared threateningly at the passengers and the theme from "Shaft," arranged for bouzouki and kazoo, blared from the cabin PA.

In traditional hijackings, Ward, June, Wally and the Beav aren't going to Disneyworld after all. They're on their way to spend four fabulous days in Libya, where they'll sit on the broiling tarmac at Tripoli for endless hours without air conditioning, eating cold couscous and inhaling the scent of overflowing chemical toilets. Makes me nostalgic.

But today's modern, non-traditional hijackers wear black, build their own lethal weapons using a pocket full of everyday, non-metallic geegaws costing about $3.59 at Home Depot, and ram the planes into buildings when they're done. You can sense the difference right away, particularly with the obvious absence of american film soundtracks, fringed vests and glaring accomplices.

Quite a difference, and thanks to Condi -- way back before her stunning achievements in international diplomacy elevated her to her current position -- for helping us distinguish between the two.


wp

[Rosa Luxemburg]

93. I'd forgotten about those fringed leather vests!

who decided on the boxcutters?

[warren pease]

83. Dupe. Sorry

[maggiegault]

89. This Is All Beautiful, But...

...the only evidence that I need of any type of "conspiracy" among the thugs is the fact that the hole in the Pentagon was not the width of a 757's wingspan.

[juno jones]

92. The construction of the FEMA camps

I am a casual collector of 'conspiracy theory'. On 9/11 I was reading cyberspace orbit and such along with the 'real' news just to exercise all muscles involved with heavy thinking. One thing posters kept talking about were concentration camps being built in the middle of nowhere, ostensibly for the purpose of warehousing illegal aliens and dissidents after some kind of bogus emergency allowed the declaration of martial law. At the time I thought this was over-the-top paranoia. Well, looks like 'they' were right about that one. And 'they've' been proven right on a few others as well. I do not believe aliens zapped the twin towers with a laser beam or any of that, but there are nuggets of truth that are so easy be overlooked just because the mere label of 'conspiracy theory' makes most people laugh and walk away. Conspiracy theories thrive in an environment of secrecy. A full-on public investigation of everything starting with the elections, 9/11, and on up will go a long way to clearing the air and debunking some of the more fanciful stories that have emerged. Thanks, lerkfish!

[pat_k]

94. More than "evidence" -- Like squatters, they claim Unconstitutional powers. . .

. . .through openly hostile possession:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/pat_k/22

[TheBaldyMan]

95. I will not surrender blindly to the latest paranoid ravings du jour.

The cases you have cited were known early on and had multiple sources to validate them. Hardly in the loose change category. Indeed there was evidence to uncover. That is proof of the value of critical thinking and investigative journalism not confirmation of any value in indulging in successive orgies of conspiracy theory.

If you expect anyone to surrender their critical faculties to make the tin-foilers' jobs easier - I regret to inform you I for one will not.

[Beam Me Up]

102. Are you willing to conduct a simple thought experiment?

Imagine a steel building 110 stories tall composed of hundreds of peripheral steel beams and 47 steel core columns, floors, elevator shafts, etc.

Now, magically remove two floors from this structure at around the 80th floor such that the upper 20-30 stories fall directly downward into the path of greatest resistance (the underlying steel structure).

What does your critical thinking tell you would be the most likely outcome of this event? Did any of the WTC buildings that "collapsed" exhibit characteristics that match your expectation?

How long would you expect it to take for the mass of the upper stories to descend to ground level? What would you expect to find at ground level after they had fallen?

Can a massive steel structure fall through itself, through the line of greatest strength and resistance, at nealy the same rate it would fall through nothing but air (approximately 10 floors per second) without another source of energy eliminating this resistance as it fell? How can it gain mass and accelerative force if it is simultaneously spilling sideways in all directions? How can it maintain a steady, if not accelerated rate of descent while overcoming resistance?

I'm not asking you to 'believe' anything. But it is a thought experiment worth conducting given the gravity of the matter -- no pun intended. I don't know where you live but the next time you are in a major city, look up at a 50 story steel skyscraper and try to imagine it collapsing symmetrically and into its own footprint in less than seven seconds, as WTC 7 did, without the use of explosive force to eliminate its tensile strength.


Edit, clarity.

[TheBaldyMan]

125. I am not a structural engineer or architect.

Until I read up on the physics of fixed structural bodies I will reserve judgement.

Let me say that speculation and hearsay is very different from voluminous testimony on the confirmed crimes (I don't call them conspiracies) that have been exposed already. Documentation and witness statements are abundant and allow clear conclusions to be drawn.

Crimes do involve an element of conspiracy beforehand. A bank robber conspires with other bank robbers to plan to rob a bank, then the gang rob an bank, thereby committing a crime. To describe the bank heist as a conspiracy instead as a crime is dishonest. Using this description of a crime as a generic conspiracy, especially to convey some credibility to some speculative hypothesis, is intellectually dishonest.

I am not saying you are wrong, I am not able to make an informed decision.

[Beam Me Up]

134. Ok, I'm not a structural engineer or architect either. Or a physicist,

for that matter. But I do live in the world with solid objects. I observe simple phenomena. If I drop a cardboard box from some height onto a stack of other cardboard boxes, I know that it isn't going to hit the floor as quickly as when I drop it through the air. The other boxes below it will provide resistance. Of course how much damage, if any, it does to the stack below will vary depending upon how heavy the box is, how strongly it and the boxes it falls into are structured, from what distance I drop it and so on. And, of course, this is only a physical analogy. When you are dealing with steel, concrete and glass structures, the consequences are going to be more chaotic by many magnitudes.

Nevertheless, the same principals apply. If it were magically possible to suspend 20 stories of a steel building 90 stories above the ground and release it with a crane, it would fall at near free-fall speed having nothing but air as resistance. In the thought experiment I'm suggesting, I'm placing a structure of equal strength, four times the upper structure's mass beneath it the distance of two floors and trying to imagine what would be the consequences. Of course I don't know exactly but what I do know is, the tinsel strength of the lower structure will slow the descent of the upper one considerably -- if not overcome it completely. In other words, the time it will take it to fall -- whether it falls through the structure or hits it and then begins to pass through it before tilting or sliding sideways -- it will, by necessity, decrease the rate of decent. That is a fundamental physical principal and I don't need to be an engineer or architect to see that.

I don't think one has to be an engineer or an architect to understand that all three buildings fell too fast -- and by that I mean impossibly fast. They were, after all, steel structures that were specifically designed to not do precisely what they did -- fall down. The exact times of collapse of the towers is a subject of some debate. NIST says they fell in 10 to 12 seconds but even if you allow 15 seconds, which is about the longest anyone can reasonably argue, it is still too fast. Stand next to a 10 story building and try to imagine it disintegrating in one second. Try to imagine the amount of force that would be necessary to push the roof of a ten story building to the ground through the resistance of the lower floors in one second. Or, conversely, how swiftly the roof would fall if there was no support at all.

This is the anomaly we are faced with and no one in government has explained it. The NIST report only studies collapse initiation, not cumulative sequence.

So far as "crime" and "conspiracy" -- neither of which I mentioned in my post --I believe the definition of a conspiracy is the intent of more than one person to commit a crime.

Edit to add: Oh, and by the way, there are many many witnesses who say they heard and or felt explosions at the WTC -- many at sub basement level prior to plane impact. google William Rodriguez for only one heroic example.

[TheBaldyMan]

137. neither of us are technically competent to offer an informed opinion

so I'd advise caution before making any claim. I have enough technical training to recognise that making assumptions can lead to errors. Often physical results can be counter-intuitive. Evidence first, then infer what you can within reason from the evidence.

You say that you don't have to be an engineer or a structural scientist to make these claims, true. However if you want the claims to taken seriously I'd suggest that you take at least become familiar with basic structures and finite element analysis. Until you apply this minimum amount of knowlege your opinion remains uninformed.

Right now I could probably bluff my way through the failure of a simple box girder but I wouldn't make any claim about a structure as complicated as a structurally compromised high-rise building.

Controlled demolition experts know how to make a building fall in a variety of patterns, not just within the building's own footprint. A controlled explosion could have been made the building fall in any direction including straight down. The fact that both the WTC towers did collapse almost vertically cannot be accepted as proof of a controlled explosion. It can be used as evidence to discount certain forms of structural failure.

My definition of a conspiracy is wider, someone can conspire to carry out an act without that act being a crime, my definition of a conspiracy nut is no doubt equally familiar to you, IMO tin-foil hatters every last one of them. I am not willing to lend any credence to a hypothesis without supporting evidence, gut feelings and hunches aren't good enough.

[Lerkfish]

103. on the contrary, I'm ASKING for your critical faculties.

if you had read the post to the end, you might have caught my request:

Your energies might be better spent helping us track down the actual conspiracies as we discover them.

[blm]

113. Some of us get attacked here as conspiracy theorists re Bush and Clinton coziness, but check this

out from a noted HISTORIAN, Douglas Brinkley, who talked about the Clintons undermining Kerry's candidacy in an interview in April 2004. That was long BEFORE we learned about Carville's betrayal from the Woodward book. Or Hillary joining McCain and Bush's lie that Kerry insulted the troops.

And we get attacked for saying today what we saw throughout 2004 and afterwards.


http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=13354

[TheBaldyMan]

126. I did read the OP, my answer was based on that.

my response remains the same having re-read it.

You are trying to bolster conspiracy theories by association with confirmed evidence of crimes that have been committed. I call bullshit where I see it.

[Lerkfish]

133. well, thanks for reading it!

I appreciate it.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

97. Another kick.

From a flea-bit, exceedingly suspicious old cat.

[mhatrw]

100. Don't forget Enron, air at Ground Zero, Cheney's energy commission,

Florida's 2000 "felonious" voter rolls, Florida's vote counting "riot", Bin Laden family's 9/12 exit flights, Patriot Act excesses, Total Information Awareness, yellowcake, Cheney's Halliburton stock options, Carlyle Group war profiteering, fighting against any 9/11 investigation, Iraq artifact looting, the staged Hussein statue psyop, Gitmo & Abu Ghraib, "Iraqi oil will pay for war", $330,000 a month to Chalabi, planted domestic "news" paid for with tax dollars, the HHS Scully scandal, "no global warming", Gannongate, Afghan's record opium production, pre-2004 election Florida FEMA bribes, Coingate, Jack Abramoff, enemy combatants, the California "energy crisis", the "Dirty Bomber", plastic turkeys, Saving Private Lynch, Halliburton no-bid contracts to supply sewage tainted water to the troops, Pat Tillman, domestic spying, Downing Street memos, ...

[DFW]

124. Most of them, absolutely!

Especially the 2000 election and the CA "energy crisis."

But Coingate? Nah, that one was a combination of events that fed
upon themselves with no master plan. I actually knew Tom Noe pretty
well in the 1970s. He was always a wannabe, and got his big chance
when Ohio took a chance on giving him %50 million to invest. The ironic
thing is that if he had stuck to strictly investing it in rare coins
instead of lending money out to people in the coin business who were
sleazes and taking unjustified advances on commissions, to make contributions
to Republicans and build himself fancy houses in Florida, he would have
made the Ohio Workers' Comp fund a fortune, as some rare coins have
more than tripled in value since 1998. He was just in too much of a hurry.
Scary to think that if he had waited til 2008, he might have changed
history, but I really think that is the case.

But his ego got in the way--as it always did even back when I knew him,
and instead of becoming an Ohio Republican hero, he became a symbol of
it's corruption, even though he was a kid taking a cookie as an advance
on his dessert compared to Blackwell doctoring the voting results of the
whole State. Noe didn't cover his tracks much because he didn't understand
that what he was up to would get him into deep shit if he didn't. Blackwell
covered his tracks as best he could because he knew full well that what he
was up would get him ten to twenty years in Leavenworth if it was discovered.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

104. Lerk...

:yourock: That is all. Carry on. Nothing to see here.

[RestoreGore]

105. Thank you. These people are traitors n/t

[kirby]

107. Apples and Oranges

Most of the 'conspiracies' you mention pass some sort of reasonableness test. In fact, I'm not sure they are conspiracies in the way most people thing of conspiracies. Some of them are mismangement, lack of accountability, lack of caring, and lying.

I dont 'belittle' anything immediately. However, after some basic facts, some theories are just nonsense. How many people clung to the Earth is Flat despite proof offered that it wasn't?

The problem with many conspiracy theorists is that they are so joined at the hip with their beliefs and emotions, that no matter what evidence surfaces, the evidence itself become part of the coverup. Its like arguing with someone about religion.

[nomatrix]

109. Still joined at the hip to "nonsense" beliefs like yours

Comparing apples and oranges: a randomised prospective study

James E Barone, surgeon in chief.

Stamford Hospital, Stamford, CT 06904, USA

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/321/7276/1569

"This article, certain to become the classic in the field, clearly demonstrates that apples and oranges are not only comparable; indeed they are quite similar. The admonition "Let's not compare apples with oranges" should be replaced immediately with a more appropriate expression such as "Let's not compare walnuts with elephants" or "Let's not compare tumour necrosis factor with linguini.""


Any other facts you'd like to compare?

This is problem with many who refuse to use their brain for critical thinking.

[kirby]

112. Hardee-Har-Har

Now I know where most of the conspiracy theorists get their info from! Thats probably same 'journal' that the Bush WH Office of Science and Quantitative BS Mechanics quotes regularly.

[southerncrone]

110. Tellin' it like it is, Lerkfish!

:yourock:

[calimary]

114. GREAT one!

Well worth bookmarking. I suspect you'll be adding to it.

[Amonester]

115. May I suggest this one: **'s Plan to Fund Wall Street (SS)

Although that conspiracy fell flat at the catapult's feet (well, perhaps - we hope not... - "temporarily" postponed by the dicktatorial deceiver...), it's part of the conspiracist$ plan to destroy the Government Of The People By The People For The People, and to replace it by their own form of what I call Privatization Of All Revenues Coming From The People By The Chosen Few For The Enronchment Of A Very Small Circle Of Loyals Who Screwn The People...

http://skeptically.org/bw/id5.html
THE $4.7 TRILLION PYRAMID

Why Social Security won't be enough to save Wall Street

By Michael Hudson
...
Michael Hudson is Distinguished Processor of Economics at the University of Missouri, Kansas City,

and the author of many books on international and domestic finance, including Super Imperialism: The Origin and Fundamentals of U.S. World Dominance.

They wanted something for nothing. I gave them nothing for something.
—J. R. "Yellow Kid" Weil

Social Security, formerly the "third rail" of American politics, has now been trod upon, in rather dramatic fash­ion, by George W. Bush. Given that the maneuver is both stupid and un­necessary, one must ask why. After all, the program's alleged deficiencies, if there are any, will not manifest themselves until at least 2018. This is not quite the same as worrying about the sun's eventual collapse into a black hole, but for most politicians a problem that lies thirteen years in the future is nearly the same thing. Clearly all is not what it seems.

More at: http://skeptically.org/bw/id5.html


Thanks for this OP, L.

[mvd]

116. Not to mention that our country was founded..

on a conspiracy theory. The founders had a conspiracy theory that the British wanted to eliminate any freedom the Colonists had. That was certainly a good one! It's not a stretch to think the Bush administration wants to do the same thing WITHIN America.

[FogerRox]

117. RIGHT ON, Knr too

[epppie]

118. When we look at what they've done that we know about,

what have they done that we DON'T know about?

[rosesaylavee]

132. EXACTLY!

This worries me too. It's not over yet.

[Jcrowley]

120. K&R n/t

[Beam Me Up]

122. I'm sure I read it first here on DU but I don't recall who said it:

THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION IS A CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY!

[jarnocan]

128. true!!!! K&R this comment:)

[autorank]

123. K&R Bookmarked and my compliments, outstanding work!!! n/t

[jarnocan]

127. Sad when some DUers sound like far right freepers

dismissing real concerns -using "Consperacy theorist" as an insult. Sure some say Vote FRAUD is just a conspiracy theory too. and 911 was JUST a handful of terrorist funded by- uh Osama and Sadam and all those other 'bad' guys except Bandar Bush and the Saudi's, and Pakistanians who are our friends.
You don't have to buy inot every detail, to know that 911, the wars, the vote fraud, deliberate dismattling of checks and ballances and many of our rights all relate.
None of us completely can see the big picture, but lot's of peices to the puzzle lay about, partially obscurred within these conspiracy theories.

[Larry Ogg]

129. One mustn’t forget the role of the corporately owned and controlled weapons of mass deception

main stream media. It’s obvious that they have lost any credibility when it comes to reporting the facts that would inflame the citizenry to the point of demanding further investigations into many issues, in fact they do just the opposite. The American people are by far the most entertained people in the world and the same time the most misinformed. This is the conspiracy fact that has allowed more damage to be done to this country than any foreign terrorist could ever do. We are being destroyed from within, the destruction is intentional and it is more than one person doing it. But it must be understood, that for them to accomplish their goal they need to control the media… And that’s exactly what there doing… It is no wonder there are so many conspiracy theory’s…

[Tyler Durden]

130. Did anyone mention the removal of Global Warming from Gov. Reports...

Censoring scientists' research regarding global warming, and the re-writing of such reports by GOP hacks?

[exlrrp]

131. The best conspiracy is still virtually unknown

This doesn't exactly count as a Bush administration conspiracy because it started long before Bush was President. But the conspiracy of coverup continued and continues to this day.

George W Bush was discharged from the military in disgrace. What happened was that when he refused to take his physical, instead of grounding, investigating and disciplining him, his superiors elected instead to keep him illegally listed and paid as a pilot for 14 more months, untill they could get him an "honorable discharge." George W Bush contitnued to get paid for 14 more months as a pilot, for pilots work, that he had been suspended from doing. He was kept listed and paid as a pilot for work he did not do--because he was suspended from doing it.
George W Bush was suspended from flying on Aug 1, 1972, yet he countinued to get paid for 52 more days of pilots duty in the next 14 months because his superiors kept him falsely listed as a pilot when they they were required to change his AFSC (job title.)
When George BUsh cashed checks for work he hadn't done, COULDN'T have done because he was suspended from doing it,work he KNEW he didn't do, he committed embezzlement of federal funds and his superiors helped him do it. Furthermore, all the 52 last days he was paid for were illegal because he wasn't qualified to get paid in that position--and that makes his discharge fraudulent because these dayd were figured in to get it. And there's no statute of limitations for Fraudulent discharge. Thats what the stakes are for Bush: its far more than just simple AWOL, which is what Bushco wants you to believe. Bush and his former superiors could actually still see jail for this, the stakes in the '04 election were incredible high. And they beat them.

The "honorable discharge" itself has holes you could drive a deuce and a half through. The discharge itself shows the basics of the scheme. Look at the NONE in the Qualifications box. Thats their capital letters, not mine and it indicates that they REALLY wanted everyone to know Bush was thoroughly unqualified to do ANYTHING in the military when discharged.. yet Bush is still; listed as a pilot. This is a huge anomaly--you can't be a pilot without qualifications like you can't be a taxi driver without a drivers license. This discharge ssays that Bush was not qualified to hold the job he is listed as having. And certainly not qualified to get paid as a pilot, yet he was paid to be a pilot his lastr 52 days after he had been suspended from flying. Bush's superiors kept paid as a pilot because they kept him listed as a "Plt on-fly." This is fraud--they were required to change his AFSC, reclassify and reassign him, which they never did.
the NONE in the qualifications box shows he was stripped of all his qualifications and the blank in his Awards and decorations box indicates they stripped him of his two medals (the NDSM and a pistol qualification badge) as well.

the TAFCS and TAFMS in the awards and decorations box are NOT medals, they stand for, respectively, Total Accumulated Federal Civilian/Military Service. These are supposed to be tallies of training days, there should be a colon and a number after each of them indicating time in category--there's not, kindicating the total of days has been whited out. Why would they type in these letters and leave out the colon and number? The truth is that these days did not total with the "5 years, 4 months and 5 days" tally which is also fraudulent-- they count all the gaps in his service as attandance, 9 months total. The real total is more like 4+ years

The Blankness of these two boxes indicates Bush wwas stripped of all his qualifications and meager crop of medals when discharged. He DID have qualifications and medals at one time but his discharge proves they stripped him of them when he was discharged. This is hardly what they do to someone who has completed his service honorably.

But thats not all thats wonkus about this discharge, look at the line that says that : "...Officer has a six year service obligation....and has completed 5 years, 4 months and 5 days..."
NO ONE else has this statement on his discharge: it states in easliy understandable English that George Bush did not finish his six year obligation.

With a discharge this disgraceful its hardly a surprise that Bush didn't show up to sign it. But this itself indicates he wasn't there when he shold have been--EVERY truly honorably discharged veteran showed up to sign his discharge.

The military did not want Bush to show off this discharge with pride--its a Kiss of Death discharge. Its on the right form but what it shows isn't honorable--that BUsh was stripped of his qualifications and medals, was disqualified from the job he is listed a shaving and didn't finish his 6 year obligation. Why this happened was because when they gave him this discharge, no one in his right mind would have dreamed that a fuckup like BUsh would one day become president. So what they were left with was a miserable service record of disgrace that they had to make all right--THIS is Roves genius, for which he'll probably never be attributed: he made a silk purse out of this sow's ear. (Rove was Bush's "minder" on his service record from the beginnning) He made this desgraceful record look dicey but OK---this is the best he could do. He got all the questions and follow up stopped. Nobody ever asked why Bush had NONE in his qualifications box and no medals at all..

This was the hidden purpose of the Swiftboating--to cover Bush's miserable record by atttacking Kerry's. And it worked like a charm, the media rolled right over and let the RW stroke their tummies. BUsh's record got almost a complete bye in the media, accepted as ho9norable, against aall the evidence, while they went through Kerry's record with a shitrake and a shotgun. Bushco covered up Bush's having been stripped of his medals by atttacking Kerry's--and the media did nothing but help them. This is how Bushco stole the 2d election---they could not have won if the truth was known.

This is why our new ambassador to Belgium is who he is.

So this conspiracy covers many decades and a whole cast of characters--from Bush's corrupt TXANG superiors, through Karl Rove and DAn Bartlett, to Fox and the Swiftboaters to many of BUsh's paid stooges in the media.
And it looks like theyre going to get away with it.

[Lerkfish]

135. kick! and thanks for all the fish, folks!

[kaffiria]

136. what?

Prove that these conspiracies were exposed by conspiracy theorists and not average journalists?

The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they suspect so much you never know when they are right. People claiming the Bush admin was reponsible for 911 are self labeled conspiracy theorists. There perspective has rather limited usefulness.

[Telly Savalas]

140. Amen.

[lksmith]

141. You think those journalists were not suspicious, had no theories

regarding the (suspected) conspiracy they were investigating?

Even legal investigators routinely come with theories to guide them in their research in matters that quite often do involve conspiracy.

In other words, anyone who investigates an alleged conspiracy is by definition a conspiracy theorist.

[Octafish]

138. Bush Administration Ignored September 11 Warnings

The cabal turned a deaf ear to warnings of impending attack by Al Quaeda on the United States.

Tenet briefed Condescenda regarding Al Quaeda on July 10, 2001.
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1004-33.htm

On her recommendation, Tenet briefed Ashcroft and Rumsfeld (not Powell, though).
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/nation/15662785.htm

An exasperated Tenet then ordered an underling to brief Monkey in Crawford in August.
http://www.slate.com/id/2098861/

Of course, all the above are just part of the picture. Often ignored are the preparations Bush took at the Genoa G-8 summit to avoid an airborne attack.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/06/20/russia.binladen/index.html

Johnny Ashcan got the message to avoid flying commercial. Too bad he didn't warn the American people.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml

Here's W's biographer's work on the above -- W's LATE biographer:
Why would Osama bin Laden want to kill Dubya, his former business partner?
By James Hatfield
http://www.onlinejournal.org/Special_Reports/Hatfield-R-091901/hatfield-r-091901.html

[lpbk2713]

139. I regret I saw this too late to give it a *Recommend*.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:



We need to build a new wing at Leavenworth to accomodate all the BushCo conspirators who should be brought to justice.

[trudyco]

142. What about wire tapping/FISA ?

This is really good.

[DemReadingDU]

143. morning kick

[woo me with science]

144. LOL! nt