Question(s) for Clark supporters

[bigwillq]

Don't know if this topic has been discussed before, have not been on much since Clark dropped out but I have some questions:

1. How do you feel about Clark dropping out? Too soon?
2. How do you feel about Clark endsoring Kerry?
And most importantly, before Clark dropped out, it seemed alot of you Clark supporters formed a bond with the Dean camp and vice versa. How many have jumped ship to Kerry and how many will now support Dean??

Just wondering. Thanks.

[gyopsy]

1. I agreed with his decision

He dropped out at the right time. He wasn't winning enough delegates and I doubt if he ever would have.

I am pleased that he supports Kerry. I will always be an "Anyone But Bush in 2004" motto man. Kerry wasn't originally my first choice, but I think the Dems have to back our guy.

I do prefer Dean to Kerry. But unless Dean pulls something big out soon, he's not looking like he's going to be the winner. I hate to jump on the Kerry bandwagon like a sheep, but we need to look strong for 2004 and look united. Division within the party won't help us win the presidential race.

[bigwillq]

7. Good point about division but

since my candidate is still in the running, I'll stick with Dean until he drops out and then I will have to support Kerry.

[janx]

22. During the primaries? Or have you already voted?

?

[bigwillq]

27. My primary is March 2. Will vote for Dean then.

But will vote for the DEM NOM in November, most likely Kerry.

[HuskerDem]

46. I'm still voting for Clark in my irrelevant primary

But I have already bugun supporting Kerry in small ways, because I believe he will be our nominee.

[Tweed]

8. Marlins fan unite!

How do you like their chances without A-Rod? I think he was the heart and soul of that ballclub. He was so on during the postseason, I don't think they can do it without him.

[gyopsy]

13. I agree

He was a damn good catcher both offensively and on defense. But you know, they still have an excellent pitching staff. If Willis, Beckett, and Penny pitch like they did last season, it seems possible the Marlins might be able to at least make the playoffs! :)

And we'll still have old man McKeon as our skipper. And he's beginning to look like a very good coach.

[Guava Jelly]

2. I like Dean But I Don't believe he can Defeat bush.

Kerry is the better shot since Clark dropped out.
Dean is a very smart man I hope he gets Terry mcauliff job :)

[The Magistrate]

3. Gen. Clark's Endorsement Of Sen. Kerry Was The Right Move

My hope is now for a ticket of Sen. Kerry and Gen. Clark; it would be damned hard to beat that combination.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[BootinUp]

5. Aye!

I think the Ayes have it. :)

[Adelante]

9. Aye Yi!

[Auntie Bush]

15. Ditto

[HuskerDem]

47. Me toooooooo

[PROGRESSIVE1]

4. I wish that Clark had stayed in longer. But the momentum was...

not with him. I fully support is endorsement of John Kerry.
John Kerry is my second choice to Clark. I believe in Kerry's
message and believe that he is just as strong as Wes Clark.

Kerry/Clark 04'
Kerry/Edwards 04'

I will fully support Dean is he gets the "nod" though I was never impressed with him to start with nor am I now.

Let's put it this way: the manner in which you Dean supporters
love Dean is how we Clark supporter felt about Clark.

[goclark]

11. No Dean Kindda Kerry

I respect Dean a lot. He put new life into the Democratic Party.
I just think CLARK is a rare gem and needs to be on the ticket.
Don't see a Kerry Dean ticket.
Don't see a Dean Edwards ticket.
Don't see a Dean Clark ticket.

I may have blinders on but all I can see is a Kerry Clark ticket.

[pezcore64]

20. well

i think it would have been sweet to see a Dean/Edwards Edwards/Dean Dean/Clark Clark/Dean ticket.

i think any of those are winning tickets.
Tho i tend to think any of the nominees could defeat Shrub. thats why im being so picky about who i support in the primaries.


GO DEAN!

[Tweed]

6. My two cents about the whole thing

1. I think it was time for Clark to drop out of the race. TN and VA were his best shot. He didn't win either, didn't even come in second. Where was his campaign going to go from there? He hadn't been running for over a year like some of the other candidates and he hasn't been a big national figure before he ran for office. I didn't see Clark overtaking Kerry's lead when you had two nationally known alternatives to Kerry.

2. I developed a bond with some of the Dean supporters, but that was with the supporters, not with Dean. I have always thought that Dean was a great Democrat, said great things, but overall as presidential candidate was fairly weak. I have moved onto John Kerry with my former presidential candidate, Wesley Clark.

[incapsulated]

10. Answers

1. How do you feel about Clark dropping out? Too soon?

I'm kinda glad he did. I felt disheartened and humiliated losing the way we were. Time to call it a day. *sigh*

2. How do you feel about Clark endsoring Kerry?

I expected it, although I was surprised at the quickness of it, but since he already supported Kerry before he ran himself, it made sense.

And most importantly, before Clark dropped out, it seemed alot of you Clark supporters formed a bond with the Dean camp and vice versa. How many have jumped ship to Kerry and how many will now support Dean??

Kerry was always my number 2. I started to dislike him in the heat of the race, but that's over now. I'm still a bit bitter, but life goes on.

I've got nothing against the Dean supporters in general, although some have made no secret of their less than happy feelings for Clark. I wish you Dean supporters the best of luck.

[MrSlayer]

12. Well.

1. How do you feel about Clark dropping out? Too soon?

I hated seeing him drop out, particularly when the Gov and Lt. Gov of Wisconsin were going to endorse him and it looked like he could win the state. I think it was too soon but inevitable. I miss seeing him stump and debate.

2. How do you feel about Clark endorsing Kerry?

Well I think it was the right move. Kerry is going to get the nod and Clark would like to be VP from all I hear. So while I would have liked him to stay in I think he made the right choice for the party and his future in it. I guess I'm still a bit ambivalent as far as personal feelings.

And most importantly, before Clark dropped out, it seemed a lot of you Clark supporters formed a bond with the Dean camp and vice versa. How many have jumped ship to Kerry and how many will now support Dean??

I went right over to Kerry. While I like to hear Dean speak and think his enthusiasm is great I don't like the way he ripped Clark as a Republican and made other charges that were untrue. I was never going over to Dean.

[tameszu]

60. We already had the Lt. Gov. of WI

I was making phone calls with Lt. Gov. Lawton in New Hampshire (I suspect hers were more effective).

She rocks!

*Sigh* Winning one more state on Feb. 3 might have given us TN, which might have put us in contention in WI (with Doyle's endorsement), which would have changed everything. Ah well. Meeting Barbara Lawton was still really cool, though.

[Lefta Dissenter]

14. Quit asking such hard questions!!!

1. I wish that Clark wouldn't have dropped out, but this is coming from a die-hard supporter who has no clue what the money or other behind-the-scenes situations were. I have supported Clark since before the Draft, because none of the other candidates inspired me. I think that some of us who worked so hard to get him TO run are having an emotionally tough time now that he's NOT running. It's hard to believe that the entire Democratic Party doesn't see what we see in him. :cry:

2. Kerry endorsement - well, the quote from before he got in - where Gert is saying how they like Kerry and wish he would do well, that makes me feel a little better. Kerry was not my #2 man, but I can't tell you WHO my #2 was. I just didn't feel that anyone came CLOSE to Clark, so it was like I had a #1 and then five #6's (or something like that)

3. I like a lot of the Dean people - but I'm not jumping on any ship right now. I'm voting tomorrow for Clark. That will give me a sense of closure (I hope). That also takes the decision out of my hands, and I'll work like a dog for whoever gets the nomination. I think that a lot of Dean people and Clark people have much in common. Not to mention they're damned passionate about their candidates (see answer #1)!

[bigwillq]

16. Kudos for your honesty

I could see what you mean. I will feel the same way (if/when) Dean drops out. I feel the same about Dean as you do about Clark, how he's the only one that inspired me. I wish you the best in the next few weeks in starting the process of getting over Clark dropping out. Maybe (if/when) he's picked as the VP choice it will be some consolation.

Needless to say, I was one of those you DID support Clark as my second choice. Good luck.

[boxster]

17. I must have missed the Dean/Clark bond thing.

It's been referred to by a few posters lately.

Considering that a small, but vocal, group of Dean supporters were perpetuating the "Clark is a Republican, Rove, blah, blah" meme (and the candidate himself was calling Clark a Republican), I wasn't terribly interested in bonding, thanks.

To answer your other questions:

1) I was disappointed that he dropped out, especially before Dean or Edwards. I miss him at the debates and the post-primary TV appearances. On the other hand, see #2 below....

2) I'm glad that he endorsed Kerry. It may have been a bit early, but I expect that Clark meant to help solidify a candidate as soon as possible, so that we can plan strategy for the November election.

Edit: typo and wording fix

[bigwillq]

23. Yes, some of us Dean-Clark people bonded

Not all were involved but props to the one's who were. I don't think I have ever smeared Clark on this board.

[BootinUp]

24. My opinion about the bond

I have seen more Dean Supporters saying nice comments about the General. I think that they came to know him through us and saw how stongly we believed in the General and they could relate to that. Plus the General ran a pretty clean campaign.

As for the Clark supporters, some really like Dean, and some really don't. Myself, I think he his a good guy, but maybe not quite ready for the top job.

[bigwillq]

25. Agree with:

"I think that they came to know him through us and saw how stongly we believed in the General and they could relate to that."


That's how I started to like Clark more as well as his appearences on TV proved to me that he wanted to help change America and rid us of the political slime. Also saw his efforts as part of the grassroots movement which I strongly believe in.

[BootinUp]

28. and that worked both ways

of course :)

[Kinkistyle]

64. Both Clark and Dean went on offensive bigtime against Bush

The other frontrunners had much MUCH more subdued campaigns against the Administration. Kerry himself, having supported the Iraq War act in Congress was kind of in a weak position at the start. Both Clark (who I was voting for) and Dean (who I like as well) burst out with both guns firing against the Iraq War and Bush Admin and that impressed the hell out of me. If Clark wasn't running, there is no doubt I would have been in the Dean camp.

[democratreformed]

18. Here's my thoughts and feelings:

As I have said many times, the county results from TN showed this: In the areas we concentrated and worked really hard, we were able to come in second. In every single other area, the voting followed the standard lines of Kerry, Edwards, and then Clark. When you have to work that hard to get a message across (in other words, with absolutely no help from the media, etc.), things are NOT going well. If we had come in second overall in TN, I could maybe see us going on. As it turned out, it was time to admit that the Kerry surge was unstoppable without the advantage of vast amounts of money and/or a change in the media. I would love to have seen him stay in 'til Super Tuesday, but, in the end, the result would be the same. And, if he had, there would have been a whole lot more money spent to no advantage. I have grieved and am still grieving some - especially since I feel so uncertain for our future - but I have to deal with it.

I have alternated between frustration, despair, anger, and hope.

I think he did the right thing endorsing Kerry. It is the only thing that makes sense. I believe that he intends to continue being a voice and working toward his vision.

I will vote for Wes in my primary and will support the Dem. nominee in November. But, yes, my passion is decidedly lacking right now. I am still working to formulate my feelings.

[Tom Rinaldo]

51. That's the picture I saw too.

Thanks for articulating it so clearly. Clark would have come in second in Wisconsin also I believe. We could have dragged the race out a bit more but still it would have ended the same. Kerry had enough media behind him for him to win even where Wes did take him on, and each Kerry win only gave Kerry more media. Hard to break out of that circle.

[Bad Thoughts]

19. Great questions:

1. Although I think that Clark did drop out early, I would blame it more on the schedule of primaries and caucases. I was sad that he dropped out even after finnishing third in Virginia and Tennessee--I thought that he was polling well in Wisconson and could have continued. However, it did not appear that he could improve upon his performance, and with his ineqt campaign staff in revolt, he would not.

2. I was ok with Clark endorsing Kerry. I knew an endorsement would come soon: not being a politico, he could not hold out long and maintain his credibility. However, I thought that his endorsement might still go to Dean--they appeared to have a strong professional relationship before Clark jumped into the race. Perhaps the animosity between Clark supporters and Dean supporters that occurred over December and January was a reflection of what was going on between the candidates.

[fromadam]

21. Aaron Brown asked Clark:

"I know from working with you that you're very disciplined man, but did you ever let yourself go ahead and just think 'we might just take this to the whitehouse'?"

Clark replied "no, I didn't, because I saw what happened in Iowa".

He explained that this election, you can just "feel" a seething anger at Bush in the electorate, they want to get this done and get on with getting at Bush.

As a Clark supporter, I hate that, but he's right I think, Kerry just caught the wave-of-a-lifetime, he did some things right, Dean did some things wrong, and Clark could have done some things differently. It's just the way it is.

Watching Clark refocus on Bush so quickly in the two days after conceding.... yeah, I can vote for Kerry.

[BootinUp]

26. here's hoping that wave is acutally a tsunami

:toast:

[tishaLA]

29. my two cents

I would have liked to see Clark stay in the race longer because I think he is a more legitimate candidate than some others in the race (like one who has repreated his annoying bullshit about a "two-man" race but cannot even come in second outside his backyard). That said, I think Clark has a healthy enough ego that he does not like to lose and did not want to accrue too much debt. For him it was the right choice; that is good enough for me.

I am fine with Clark endorsing Kerry, who was my first choice before Clark got started (I wasn't fortunate enough to know about him during the Draft Clark movement). I have always thought of him as a sophisticated, nuanced (if not overly sophisticated and overly nuanced) politician with a great intellect. I don't support him like I did with Clark, but I will vote for him in the November election, assuming he is the nominee. I don't know what I will do in the CA primary, though. I might well vote for Wes over the others.

I loved the enthusiasm of the Dean supporters--at least since Iowa. Before then, many were unbearable! And I'm only half joking about that. I have a great deal of respect for the amount of energy they put into their candidate--they were as zealous as Clark supporters--and I want him to do well because his supporters care so much. To my mind, the best thing to do now for Dean supporters is to see how they can manage to transform the Dean movement's energy into something more far reaching, whether that means a moveon.org type organization or transformation from within the DNC. I think some Clark people feel this way, too, but we are less critical of the official apparatus as a whole than the Dean folk are, which means we will probably be more satisfied than not with internal Democratic Party transformation.

Again, just my two cents.

[Eurobabe]

30. it's quiet, that's for sure...

1. I respect Clark's decision to end his bid when he did, he left with dignity intact.

2. I can see the loyalty bond w/Kerry. I make my own decisions however, and for now I am supporting Kucinich. I feel DK has done a better job of telling me what he stands for/against than JK.

In the fall, I was terrified that Dean might get the nomination. I felt alot of tension and competition with the Dean people, and I had a bad taste in my mouth as to how some Dean supporters treated us Clarkies on other boards. Some were very arrogant and extremely condescending.

But since then, I have seen Dean in person, and I have met some really nice Dean supporters, and I feel the run-up bashing is all water under the bridge at this point. Dean did a great job defining the issues, and giving the party some momentum to boot Bu$h. For that I am grateful. I will rally around the eventual nominee, but have my own reasons for going with Kooch right now.

[in_cog_ni_to]

31. Most people here know how I feel,

but I will enlighten YOU. :7 I was/am completely heartbroken that Clark dropped out when he did. I wish he would have stayed in until Super Tuesday. I am not happy that he endorsed Kerry because I personally detest the man, but I do think Clark did it in hopes of getting the VP slot so I don't fault him for it....I respect him too much to think ill of HIM.

I haven't jumped ship to Kerry.

I will be voting for Clark in my March 16 Primary. I devoted way too much time and effort to NOT vote for my guy in the primary. IF Dean is the nominee, I would gladly vote for him. IF Kerry is the nominee, he will get my vote ONLY if Clark is his VP. Wes Clark's plan was to hold the Bush cabal accountable for what they have done to this country. He would hold them accountable for taking us into an illegal, pre-emptive war in Iraq. He was going to have the 911 investigation report OPENED. I think he could be instrumental in doing that in a Kerry Administration if he were the VP. I don't recall Kerry ever saying he would hold the Bush cabal accountable for anything they have done and G-D knows they're a bunch of criminals. :eyes: We'll see if Kerry is smart enough to choose Clark. I read that it mostly depends on Ca. and how Kerry does THERE in the primary. If he does poorly, Diane Feinstein may get the VP slot so he has a better chance at Ca. in November. We'll see.

I would GLADLY vote for Dean, Kucinich or Sharpton in November should one of them be the nominee.

[bigwillq]

33. Who will get your vote if Clark is not the VP selection? n/t

[HuskerDem]

50. She's voting for Clark in her primary

So am I.

I think she's voting for the Dem nominee in November as am I.

[mikehiggins]

32. Clark's hard core Hard Corps

are still with him. It is the generally (no pun) considered wisdom that we will stick together, at least until the last dog dies, no matter what happens in the primaries/general election.

So, many thousands may vote for one candidate or another but they will do so as Clark Democrats, which is pretty cool IMHO.

Clark has asked that the grassroots not-quite-structured movement hang tough and not fold into the Kerry campaign (where we are more or less not welcome anyway). He reportedly would like his supporters to coalesce into a cohesive national collection of activists within the larger Democratic Party.

Sounds just about right to me.

[Renew Deal]

34. Here goes

1. I was disapointed but I understood. How much more could he go on without a big win. And his prospects for winning another one weren't very good. I understand the decision.

2. I was happy with it. I thought it was a good thing. I wonder if he had another option.

3. I never cared for Dean. I still don't like him. I haven't jumped fully into the Kerry camp. I am kind of a free agent right now. Kucinich makes more sense in some ways.

[Donna Zen]

35. People do what they have to do:

The blog core is still active and I would hope that any of Clark's supporters would drop by. Two members of the group are currently building a new blog site to carry on the vision.

If the grassroots groups could find common ground then two things can be accomplished:

From the web, we can pick and chose candidates in congressional races to support. Currently, Clark has directed us to two people. We are doing our thing, but it sure would be nice to see the return of eblocks.

Second, we can advance an agenda. Currently we have a 19 point list that we are still refining. Clark said often that this wasn't about him, we drafted him, this was about what we wanted. In order to achieve what we want then we must reach critical mass. Become a force that can support and advance the values we are promised by America but keep getting buried by the slugs.

1) Accountability

2) Dissent is the highest form of patriotism

3) International law trumps diplomacy, and diplomacy trumps
force. Force only, only, only as a last resort.

4) 1. A multilateral foreign policy which includes both hard power
and soft power.

5) People before the powerful

6) Free but Fair trade with emphasis on the rights of workers,
human rights, and the environment.

7) A progressive tax system that taxes only enough to pay the
bills.

8) Protecting the Constitution and the Environment for ourselves
and our heirs

9) An informed electorate educated by fair and honest public
dialogue

10) Transparent government

11) Protection of voting rights--paper verification for electronic
voting.

12) A commitment to insure all Americans equal rights under the
law

more...

It is our conclusion that Kerry at this point does not need our help, and Clark said that his intent was not to roll our movement up into Kerry's. Good because Clark's group included many indies and moderate repubs who really don't like Kerry. I'll support ABB period.

[Adelante]

43. Thanks, Donna

Clark's vision is what it's all about for all of us.

[NV1962]

36. Here's my take on it

Initially, I thought it was too soon. Now that I understand better how he came to realize that his campaign was climbing too steep a slope to realistically expect the nomination, and therefore his decision to focus on supporting the Democratic candidate he feels most closely shares his own approach and has very good prospects of becoming the nominee, I came to accept it - and even embraced the same candidate as my "next best guy" too.

As to Dean: he definitely has my sympathy. Before Clark entered the race, he actually was on the top of my list (closely followed by Dennis Kucinich, BTW) However... I don't think that any of the four candidates in my sig (in alpha order) are "bad" at all. And given the vital importance of ousting Bush with a resounding electoral defeat, I want to support Kerry and do my little bit to get him elected by a landslide - if only to inflict a major electoral slap to the GOP for allowing neocons and fundies to hijack their party, sending them into a 4-to-8 year reconstruction effort, and moreover: to push for majority in Congress, as well.

However - in my case, supporting Kerry doesn *NOT* mean wanting to "attack" and much less so "destroy" other candidates. Kerry simply tops my Fab Four; Dean comes second, Kucinich a close third.

No disrespect whatsoever - quite the contrary. I believe Dean supporters have shown us Clarkies how immensely effective and powerful a strong grass-roots organization can be - and how important the Net can be. Now, hopefully we can put that channeled energy to good use, not only for the general elections, but also to win the necessary Congressional seats back - one by one. That's where the power of grass-roots campaigning will be most effective, much more than in the GE even.

[texasmom]

37. It seems like Kerry is a runaway train since Iowa...

and as much as I wanted it to be different, reality is reality.

I was very, very disappointed when Clark withdrew last week, but I guess it was the responsible and honest thing to do. He could have kept going, raising money, when it was obvious he wasn't going to get a win. I read something somewhere that everyone in the campaign felt it was a two man race when he got OK and came in 2nd in NM, AZ, and ND. But, the press played it as a two man race between Edwards and Kerry. When that happened with the press coverage and when he didn't take Tennessee and didn't come in second in Va, they could see it wasn't going to happen.
So...my point is that he had to withdraw eventually, and I'm glad it's over with. It was terribly painful, but his appearances post-withdrawal were so positive that they helped me through it.

I don't have much of a feeling about him endorsing Kerry. It doesn't surprise me.

I was always attracted to Howard Dean, even though he was never my candidate of choice. I admire him greatly, and I feel so much for Dean supporters, because I feel that what happened to him post-Iowa with the "scream" was just brutal and terribly unfair. :hug:
I think he's tried to do a lot for all of us in the Dem. party, and I have huge appreciation for him.

I'm not supporting any candidate anymore. I'll wholeheartedly support the nominee! I've almost felt like a teenager with my first broken heart in this primary year. It's too soon for me to fall in love again.

[mgarretson]

38. Adding my 2 cents

Hello All,

1. I attended the Victory Rally in Oklahoma City when Clark won in Oklahoma (I even got to be on the stage!) and I was elated... It was wonderful.. But by Wednesday or Thursday of that week I had begun to have this eerie premonition that it was only a matter of time before he dropped. I still charged on, reading everything I could get my hands on out of TN and VA but I had that nagging feeling. By the time all the polls had reported in TN I knew it was only a matter of time. Once CNN started reporting that General Clark would exit the race the next day, I immediately thought of all the great staffers and volunteers I had met in NH and in OK through the campaign... I think the General did have an undeniable effect of the race though: his candidacy energized me to get active instead of just bitching...

2. I think the Kerry endorsement made sense because Kerry's campaign shared many key issues with the General's (Foreign Policy, National Security, Veterans, etc.) and it was also a tremendous showing of party loyalty on the part of a good Democrat. Kerry was my candidate before I caught wind of General Clark and even through the process of the campaign I began to dislike him, I knew the only place for me to go was behind the eventual nominee. It helped a great deal that Clark made the same choice.

3. I'm glad that Howard Dean ran for the nomination because I think he did help to energize the party (whether for or against him) but I never was very close to him. I hope the Dean folks keep an active interest in the country and the party because I think they'll do good work, but Kerry was a closer choice for me.

Brevity's a virtue isn't it? Damn, I wish I had remembered that before I started to write. :)

Cheers All,


From Clark Country,
I'm another Clarkie for Kerry!

[bigwillq]

39. Thanks for your insight n/t

[newyawker99]

72. Hi mgarretson!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[xultar]

40. Good questions...

I didn't like Clark dropping out he promised till super Tuesday. He broke a promise to me from that stand point. I don't hold it against him though
I wish Clark had waited and Endorsed the nominee, but with Edwards hiring Shelton and Dean calling him a Rethuglican right up until he dropped out I can see why he didn't endorse Dean. I wish he hand't endorsed Kerry it made it look like he is after something.

I feel free, and I'm not supporting anyone. I feel free and happy that I don't have a horse in the race.

Yippee!

[bigwillq]

41. IMO, it made Clark look like he is going after the VP slot

Which is not a bad move by the general, if you can't be #1, #2 is not that bad. But I thought Clark should've waited unitl at least there was a nominee.

[incapsulated]

42. Gephardt didn't

And Kerry looked out of his head with joy over Clark's endorsement, heh.

Clark was a Kerry guy before he decided to run himself, so it's not at all surprising. As for the VP slot, who knows.

[bigwillq]

45. I thought Gep should've waited for their to be

a nominee as well. I think it made him look like a VP choice also.
My kudos to Lieberman for (so far) not endorsing anyone.

[incapsulated]

48. Well, I would prefer nobody endorse anybody, heh

But they usually do.

I think everyone is glad they didn't get the Lieberman endorsement though, lol.

[LandOLincoln]

68. Well, remember the circumstances under which Wes

endorsed Kerry so quickly:

IMO it was to done to nip the Rove/Drudge Kerry/Clark/Intern smear in the bud, and--again in my opinion--it worked beautifully.

The "intern" story and the false claim that Clark started it was clearly intended by Rove to drive a wedge between Kerry and Clark and to damage them both as much as possible.

But Rove simply is no match for either of these men, especially Clark who--as David Hackworth puts it--"thinks on his feet somewhere around Mach 3."

And so what Rove has got for his pains is an open alliance between the two Dems he fears the most, not least because of their legitimate war hero status at a time when the Chickenhawk in Chief has made it plain that he's going to run on his record as a "War President."

Now, some have asked why Rove would float the intern story now, instead of waiting until Kerry wins the nomination and the intern story could do far more damage.

To me the answer is simple. Rove's intent was to step on the AWOL story, but not because the AWOL story alone was damaging * that badly. It's the story within the story that so terrifies BushCo, that being Dubya's long-rumored 1972 coke bust and subsequent community service at the Houston poverty center.

Please read that last sentence again, then do everything in your power to KEEP THIS STORY ALIVE.

Here are some links that may be helpful:

http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm

http://www.progress.org/archive/drc12.htm

http://www.thetip.org/art_George_Bush___Cocaine_Addict_129_icle.html

http://www.sonofbush.com/cocaine.htm

http://www.kausfiles.com/archive/index.08.25.99.html


You get the idea. Just Google "George Bush Cocaine" and you'll get page after page of links. Enjoy!


edited for minor points of grammar, 'cause I was an English major and I obsess over stuff like that

[HuskerDem]

44. I was sad to see him go, but he's been a man of honor his whole life

I believe he left when he felt it was not possible for him to attain the goal of the nomination. I believe he felt it was dishonest to continue taking peoples money on a snipe hunt.

I trust his judgement. His foremost goal was and is the removal of W. Bush, and he apparently saw that he would be best able pursue that goal outside of his presidential candidacy.

I think Kerry and Clark are a natural fit and I hope Wes is picked up by Kerry as our VP. As a ticket they would be OUTSTANDING together.

As for bonds with Dean supporters, I would hope everyone in here has a bond. We all want the same thing, which is Bush the hell out of our house.

[KT2000]

49. Still sad about him dropping out

but understand it - he was not in it for egotistical reasons. Rather he was in to get Bush out. In getting out so soon, I think he was guided by an honesty we don't often see.

Endorsing Kerry was a logical step and my support for Kerry is based on logic too.

Would love to see Clark on the ticket as VP though.

[hope42mro]

52. 1.Sucked 2. No Opinion really 3.Definite Connection. More....

1. It totally sucked for me, I was devastated:cry:. I wasn't THAT surprised though because we were coming from way behind (in 4th place for delegates). I thought he would at least wait until after Super Tuesday to consider dropping out. Now that Kerry is coming under the same Media scrutiny that hurt Dean I wish Clark was still in to be there when he falls.

2. Eh. So-so. Kerry's not so bad, he's a hell-of-alot better than Bush. I like Dean too though. But I have to admit I look more seriously at Kerry now BECAUSE Clark endorsed him. Right after hearing Clark's endorsement of Kerry I was upset; I was in complete sour grapes mode ever since Kerry killed us in our state primary after we'd worked 10 times harder for the state. But I'm over it.
Clark's choice of Kerrry is actually pretty predictable. They're both Vietnam Veterans, which is REALLY important to Clark. But it's still hard to swallow the endorsement since Clark's critiscm of Kerry for the IWO, No Child Left Behind votes still holds true.
If Clark had endorsed Dean I would have looked closer at Dean than Kerry. But he didn't, and dem's da beans, sorry:shrug:.
Before Clark's endorsement of Kerry I was leaning toward Dean (sour grapes and all;() now I look at them about equally. Even though Clark's endorsement DOES carry alot of weight, it does NOT decide who I support.
I think its like this: the Dems wants to wrap this up so they can focus on Bush, not each other and so Dem $$$ isn't spent on the primaries. So the Dems who quit just focus on the frontrunner to make it look like he's the best choice(whether he is or isn't). Plus there's always the hopes for getting the VP spot, another reason to schmooze with the frontrunner. In the end all the quitted Dems will endorse the frontrunner. There will be a schmoozefest and then a regroupong to focus on the devil, I mean Bush.

3. Do I have to choose? Nope, my primary is waaay over. I'm out of the running.
BUT...Your sense that Clark and Dean supporters were building a connection was accurate. We both felt our candidates were being unfairly overshadowed by Kerry's dominance of the media. We felt our candidates were "outsider" underdogs. Both our candidates were dismissed as being "unelectable." So yeah, their was comraderie there.:grouphug:
I bet if Clark had waited as long as Gephardt to endorse Kerry alot of Clark supporters would have joined Dean. Then again, Clark supporters were totally caught of gaurd by his concession and probably felt switching candidates would be too...umm...shall I say "painful". Well, here's to the rest of the primaries. Have fun!!:party:

[Tom Rinaldo]

53. On Clark leaving and the Dean bond.

I felt terrible about Clark withdrawing. I wanted reality to be different. Since anything can happen until it can't, I wanted Clark to be the last man standing in case Kerry fell over. I still want Clark to be President. I actually emailed the campaign and urged them to consider suspending the campaign rather than officially withdrawing. Having said that, I believe Clark did the right thing. Since I honestly realized after Tennessee and Virginia that Kerry would be near impossible to stop, I think Clark did what was best for the Party, as we need the Democratic Party in as good a fighting shape as possible because Bush simply has to go.

If Clark had been inclined to, which I don't think he ever was, he couldn't have delivered most of his support to anyone other than Kerry. Clark's activist core was quite different from his typical voters. His typical voter saw Dean and Kucinich as too Liberal and unelectable, while Edwards was too inexperienced in leadership and National Security. Clark's core support is much more eclectic, with more Dean, Kucinich, and Edwards potential supporters thrown into the mix. Kerry does not excite me in any way other than knowing he is a lot better than Bush and maybe can beat him.

I see no need to move over to Kerry now. I will stand still and let his wave sweep over me as Kerry wins the nomination, then I will be in his camp by default. Kerry doesn't need my active support right now. He is doing just fine without it, thank you. I'll be there soon enough. I will vote for Clark on March 2nd. IF Dean or Edwards has a real fighting chance by then, I will let myself rethink that question.

I started out last Spring as a Dean leaner, but I already had my eye on Clark. I have great respect for what Dean has already done for the Democratic Party. I have great hope for what his supporters can potentially do to help save the Democratic Party from itself. I thought the bonding that was starting to happen between many in both Dean and Clark's camp was an extremely hopeful development. Even at the time, I thought it extremely unlikely it would effect the actual nomination battle, unless in fact either Dean or Clark emerged as clearly more viable and potentially a winner. Then some of us might have shifted over one way or the other. Until then, we all wanted to win.

For now I am resigned in the short term to helping Kerry beat Bush. In the long term though, I would like to stay involved in efforts to carry on the fight begun at the grass roots level, to democratize the Democratic Party, to drain the swamp of special interests, and to hone a new Progressive message that can resonate with average Americans. I hope the bonding that began between our camps can serve us in forging a new unity that will carry us far past next November.

[Auntie Bush]

55. Thanks Tom. That was nice. Lot of us feel the same.

[Adelante]

57. Okay, I'll just say it

First, I will say this does not apply to all Dean supporters, but to a persistent and vocal number of them.

Pre-Iowa, it was a daily battle, an hourly battle, to defend our candidate against every manner of abuse. I felt so brutalized I never fully came out of a sense of deep distrust and dislike for the Dean campaign. Then Iowa happened. Seeing so many brokenhearted people who had worked so hard and given their all, lowered my defenses and I opened my heart quite a ways to Dean supporters. I even emptied out my Ignore folder. When the alliance threads started up, I never partook of them, in fact hid most all of them, because I was not entirely trusting, even as I appreciated the new civility between the camps. On the night of our own great loss, Dean supporters were so very kind and generous to us that I almost, okay I did change my entire viewpoint and opened my heart to Dean supporters. I don't know if that lasted 24 hours before word started going around about the Kerry endorsement. Things turned nasty just like that. Okay, so I figured give it time, let things settled down. Then came the Kerry smear. From noon Thursday until, and including, today the Clark battering has not stopped. Primarily Dean supporters, although others as well, have taken every opportunity to inject Clark's name and campaign into this scandal, even after developing events overtook the Drudge report's initial accusations.

On Friday it was clear that Chris Lehane was not the culprit.

"The Drudge item blaming Lehane quoted Craig Crawford, a former Democratic operative who now works as a consultant and columnist for MSNBC. Within 10 minutes after Drudge posted the Kerry intern item, Crawford sent a memo to his superiors that said the story was "something Chris Lehane (clark press secy) has shopped around for a long time." According to Crawford, someone at MSNBC promptly leaked his memo to Drudge. But when Lehane called Crawford with a loudly indignant denial, the MSNBC columnist quickly issued a public retraction. He said:

"The comments attributed to me are from a private email to television news associates based on conversations with Democratic campaign operatives. I did not consider any of it confirmed enough to report or publish. I can only verify that Chris Lehane's rivals in other Democratic campaigns made these claims and I have found no independent source to confirm it.

Which is why we did not go with the story. But then someone sent my email to others, which is the only reason it got into the public domain." In other words, there is no proof that Lehane circulated the rumor, let alone that the rumor has any basis in reality."

Source: Joe Conason, Salon, 2/13/04

Clark has denied it. Lehane has denied it. Reporters who were present have denied it according to a WaPo reporter, who asked every single one of those who were present; they and she herself said Clark had said no such thing. The MSNBC columnist whose memo was leaked citing Lehane as the smearer has retracted his statement and firmly states it was not Lehane, it was a Democratic rival campaign. I would dearly love to know what opponent Dem campaign abetted Drudge and his rightwing character assasination plot. I know the Dean campaign has said it is not them. But I have seen a few emails circulating among Dean supporters, as late as today, implying Clark was responsible for the Kerry smear. I have seen DU posts, as late as today, saying the same, and this was AFTER the woman issued her denial she ever had an affair with John Kerry, showing the whole thing up as a sickening hoax. That Democrats would behave this way turns my stomach. But even some Dean supporters who I thought were really, really nice have let me down on this one.

So, no, not I. I never wanted an alliance and now I don't want one even more. If the Clark grassroots joins with the Dean grassroots, it does so without me. I apologize to the innocent. I know all Dean supporters have not been involved in this sorry episode. But those who have fomented this disgusting episode and exploited it against Wesley Clark can kiss my ass from here to Sunday.

[democratreformed]

71. Are you sure you're not Demreformed? I swear your thoughts pretty

much echo mine.

[Donna Zen]

61. Me too on the grassroots

I think we have the tools now to become an effect grassroots power house. The DNC is ignoring why we managed to emerge. That really bothers me, but not enough to stop the scheming. Anyway, email me, check out my previous post or just reply when I'm here, which is seldom these days.

I see the grassroots as using blogs, state invasions, eblocking etc to render a service of sorts, but only to candidates, not only presidential but congressional, that are progressives. I don't want the movement to be part of the party with the party making the decisions. We are not their cash cow which is how I think they see us. We are people who have read the Constitution and know that what is going on now, including this primary, is not how the Founding Fathers intended it to be.

To do this we would need to set realistic goals, find tech support, determine how we can fund the project (grants? hmmm) and recruit those who interested in saving our democracy. Think of it not as a PAC but of each individual being a lobby of one that collectively can their house down. Right now the powers that be are spinning on how they can control this energy; I say we must mantain that control.

If we dream alone our dream remains a dream, if we dream in critical mass our dream becomes reality.

[Kathleen04]

54. Okay..

I'm really glad that General Clark didn't drop out directly after winning Oklahoma, that would have been way too soon...but, as much as I wish he could still be in the race, I think that it was right to drop after TN/VA...we were banking on winning at least one and came away with 3rd place finishes in both. I knew that those states would determine whether us or Edwards went on to challenge Kerry...and I think it was time.

On the Kerry endorsement...I wish he had waited. I don't really like endorsements in the first place..I wish the former candidates would just let things play out a bit more. But I'm not upset about the endorsement either..it actually makes me more at ease with Senator Kerry being the potential nominee.

[cg]

56. Heartbroken and still grieving

:-(

For the first time I can remember, I had a candidate to vote FOR. I believed Wes Clark was the most qualified for the job and I still do. He is truly an inspiration. And I'll vote for him in our primary on March 9.

I'm so sad that he had to withdraw, but the mountain of media and momentum was too steep to climb, so I think it was inevitable. And I think he did it with much grace.

I think his endorsement of Kerry provides a way that he can continue the fight for his beliefs. It enables him to continue to campaign for the future of the country, if not for his own candidacy. Kerry is the closest to having the foreign policy and national security experience that Wes felt was essential to the nominee, so it makes sense from that perspective.

Clark Patriot

[Bucky]

62. Welcome to DU, cg. I miss Clark too. But remember...

There's plenty of ways to serve your country in and out of high office. Clark and his movement are still alive, active, and already changing America. As a die hard Dem I thought I saw in him not just a winning intellectual--probably the most intellectual president since Lincoln--but also the possibility of a historic political realignment, on the level of the 1980 or 1932 realignments. I doubt his impact would be that big as the VP nominee, but I do think his contributions could be quite significant in November and in the Kerry administration.

[newyawker99]

73. Hi cg!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

58. Well as one elected a Clark delegate

in my precient caucus I wish the General had stuck it out longer. Since Kerry was my second choice I have no problem with Clark's endorsement of him. I hope Wesley Clark becomes Kerry's running mate. If not I hope the General runs for congress or some other higher office he has some well thought out ideas and would serve well in whatever office he is elected to.

[Bucky]

59. Clark kept on, no--Keeps on--changing the way I see things

I think he dropped out at the right time for him. It showed that he was in it to win. When he was no longer a viable winner, he removed himself to keep from overly complicating the race, making it (sorry Howard) a two-man race. It's what we as a party needed. It was a hell of a sacrifice. I thought he should have, but I didn't think he'd have the healthy perspective on things to know to get out. Amazingly, he did and did.

I was a little surprised at the Kerry endorsement. I thought it was a mistake at first. I'm still leaning Edwards, but living in Texas, I won't matter as this sucker's gonna be over a week before I vote. Dang it. But since then, as I look at Clark's sense of things and listen to him prop up Kerry, and as I watch Kerry dodge this bimbo bullet, I'm starting to soften on the junior mummy from Massachusetts. Clark has a lot to do with that, altho certainly Matt Drudge is also making me like Kerry a lot more, too.

Hmmm, I'll still probably vote Edwards or Clark, depending on what the ballot looks like next month. But when we caucus that night (Texas has both a primary and a caucus on the same night) I may just go with the Dean or Kucinich radicals. My intent is to show them that real progressives love Clark (I'll still wear my Clark button, of course). He's probably more liberal than Kucinich, if you go by tax policy.

[Donna Zen]

76. Vote Clark

Please!!!

While there are many reasons he went with Kerry, he also said we were NOT being requested to roll our movement into Kerry's, but to stay together. Also, Clark said that we should do what makes us comfortable.

Chandler won...Wes sent us an email to donate right before he disappeared. Many on the blog were sending $$$ through Clark's email, thus his name was associated with the donation.

I've been thinking about what's coming down here. This is our movement or cause if you will, just as the General always said. We can move it forward or let it die.

Kerry's an old friend of Clark's. He has also been given a platform to speak out against this war. I think that is all he wanted; this war pisses our guy off probably more than anyone on the planet. He sees very clearly why it should never have begun (see congressional testimony) and also, how to end it. He is focused on "doing good" at this point, and I don't expect his supporters to hear from him for some time.

Judy Woodbug was dissin' Clark again today. I think the MIC highrollers will do just about anything to keep him from getting near the seat of power. What they fail to understand about Wes is: he doesn't give a shit what they want. It is about "when the greatest need meets your heart's desire" then you are meant to do this.

I hope I got that quote right.

[tameszu]

63. I like Dean, *but*

(You knew there had be a but)

1. I don't think Clark dropped out too soon. If he had come 2nd in TN, it would have been a little tougher decision, but I'd reconciled that we needed to win TN to have any hope, and that we weren't going to do that, because the media had given big love to Edwards and big beatings on Clark.

2. It's his call. I thought it was maybe a bit too soon, although if it was to erase any black mark that he or Lehane left with the intern crap, or if it had to be done now to trade for the VP or other Cabinet slot, I'm happy Clark's still in the game.

3. I still kind of like Dean, and I especially like the movement. But, man, the poor guy has been so savaged by the media that he has little chance in the primaries and would probably get mauled in the generals--unless he came back and win due to a spectacular turnaround, rather than just Kerry imploding due to scandal (which looks like the only real shot Dean has right now).

[Crunchy Frog]

65. I think that Clark dropped out

at the appropriate time. He knew that Tennessee was make or break, he absolutely had to have a strong showing there. When he didn't, he could see the writing on the wall. He bowed out with an extraordinary amount of grace and dignity, and didn't torture his supporters by continuing to string them along in a hopeless quest. I'm very grateful to him for that and I have an enormous amount of respect for the way he handled it.

I believe that he genuinely likes and respects Kerry, and that Kerry was his choice before he got into the race. I believe that he never would have considered entering if it looked like Kerry was taking off. Therefore, since it was apparent that Kerry was the almost certain nominee, I believe that he probably felt that if he were to continue on he would have to campaign in a way that would only hurt the eventual nominee. He didn't want to do that, his biggest objective is getting * out of the white house, not to further his own ambition.

It always made sense to me that he would endorse Kerry if he dropped out. As I said before, he likes and respects Kerry. Most importantly, he believes very strongly that in this particular election, the Dem candidate, in order to have a chance, must have very strong national security and foreign policy credentials. Kerry is the only one besides himself who has those credentials.

I believe that if it were one of the others and not Kerry who was running away with the nomination, that he might have stayed in longer and put up more of a fight.

In summation, I believe that the Kerry endorsement is completely consistent with everything that I believe about Clark, and was completely appropriate. I think the actual timing of it may have had something to do with the Drudge smear.

As for myself, I have not joined any other camp. Dean used to be my second choice, but that has changed as his liabilities have become more apparent to me. I really like Dean's message, but I think that the messenger is very flawed, and would probably not be electable.

That being said, I do have alot of sympathy with people in the Dean camp, and agree with many of their concerns about the Democratic party and the need for fundamental change. I sympathise alot with the pain that many of them must be going through right now.

I feel very comfortable in not having a strong preference anymore and in being able to observe the primaries in a detached way, and without a strong emotional stake in them.

I suppose I'm somewhat more favorably inclined towards Kerry for no other reason than that I hope to see Clark play a very active role in his campaign, and hopefully be chosen as VP. However, I have no very strong stake other than that in the outcome, and definitely do not consider myself to be in the Kerry camp.

I won't be in any camp at all until we actually have our nominee. At that point, I will be totally in his camp because all I want is to see Bush's ass kicked back to Crawford.

[Piperay]

66. I wish Clark had stayed in long enough

so I could have voted for him in the CA primary but I think he still did the right thing by dropping out when he felt he couldn't gain the nomination. I think Clark made the right choice in endorsing Kerry but wish he hadn't done it quite so soon. I like Dean better than Kerry, I also like Edwards better but I am now supporting Kerry because I think he has the best chance of beating Bush.

[mmonk]

67. I still have good feelings

towards Dean. I'm supporting Kerry after careful deliberation about Kerry and his positions he currently is running on. That coupled with an attempted smear of both Clark and Kerry by Fred Barnes of the Weekly Standard pushed me into a mood of engagement with the repubs. The support of Kennedy and Teresa herself make me feel comfortable with my decision.

[TexasSissy]

69. Agreed with decision. Clark end. Kerry? Okay and expected.

I never formed a bond with the Dean camp, and I would disagree that many Clark supporters did. Quite the contrary, in fact. The supporters of Clark and Dean were as different and night and day, possibly because the candidates were so different. Then there were the personal attacks against Clark by Dean: "He's a Republican," Dean said.

As a Clark supporter, I took the position that if Clark dropped out, I'd vote for the nominee....unless it turned out to be Dean. I didn't trust Dean and didn't respect him for the personal attacks against those in his own party (he used unusual, disrespectful terms to call other candidates names....cockroaches and Republican are two that come to mind). No, me go to the Dean camp? Never.

I am leaning towards Edwards, but I might end up voting for Kerry. But I will vote for either of those two (and yes, I think Edwards has a chance, albeit a small one).

[Cogito]

70. On Clark

Q. How do I feel about Clark dropping out?
A. Great! He did the right thing at the right time and endorsed the right fellow. I have changed my avatar to Kerry.gif to reflect that I support the switch. This primary campaign is over for Clark, he was not going to raise more money and was not going to compete successfully with Kerry for the Democratic veterans vote. Kerry is going to be the nominee and so having Clark get fully behind the ticket is exactly what he should have done.

Q. How many will support Dean?
A. I don't think many will support Dean. Many of us left the Dean campaign for Clark because Dean did not seem to be electable and Kerry was not going anywhere. Well Dean seems less electable than ever and Kerry actually leads Bush in the head to head polls. He may not be great but he seems to be the best we have so time to move on and do our best to get him elected President.

[bigwillq]

74. Thanks to all for responding to my thread

I learned a lot from you guys especially how to handle a tradegy (if/when Dean drops) with class.

[andym]

75. Answers

1) Clark dropped out too soon. His campaign staff only rarely understood how to influence the media (the timing of the family tax plan announcement, and Dixville Notch being exceptions). Also, he would have helped the other candidates (and Kerry especially) by staying in the race and continuing to criticize Bush under the guise of seeking the nomination

2) I wasn't surprised, Kerry is a fine man. But it won't influence my vote. I'll vote for Clark on Mar 2.

3) I always liked Dean and hope he continues to run right into the convention.

[mikehiggins]

77. If you really support(ed) Clark take a look at this site

http://michiganforclark.com/

starting point for the Wesley Clark Society. Should be interesting.






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