Attn: History buffs.......Are there any comparative parallels in Roman history.....

[yourout]

to the current state of the USA?

[Frosty1]

1. Nero Fiddled while Rome burned?

:think:

[Tom Rinaldo]

2. This quote blew me away when I first heard it.

"I think we're at a time in American history that's probably analogous to, maybe, Rome before the first emperors, when the Republic started to fall... I think if you look at the pattern of events, if you look at the disputed election of 2000, can you imagine? In America, people are trying to recount ballots and a partisan mob is pounding on the glass and threatening the counters? Can you imagine that? Can you imagine a political party which does its best to keep any representatives from another party — who've even been affiliated with another party — from getting a business job in the nation's capital? Can you imagine a political party that wants to redistrict so that its opponents can be driven out entirely?...it's a different time in America and the Republic is - this election is about a lot more than jobs. I'm not sure everybody in America sees it right now. But I see it, I feel it."

Wes Clark, November 2003.


Clark said that during a live New Hampshire Public Radio interview.

[yourout]

3. Wow.....that is a scary but true statement.

I only hope we can save the Republic.

[gateley]

4. I've heard that the great civilizations generally have a life span of around 200 years.

Never knew if that was accurate (nor did I make the effort to find out, in all honesty), but felt the statement was a reflection of what I was seeing happen around me in our country.

This quote from Wes Clark is chilling and telling. And heartbreaking.

Pair this with Naomi Wolf's education on fascism, and I become VERY alarmed.

What can we do? I honestly and sincerely believe that most of our candidates have this country's best interest at heart and are much more aware of the situation than we the people. Would our next president be able to put this skids on this? Can we stop this before it reaches the logical conclusion? Can the next president convince the citizens that we need to fight to get our country back?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

6. I've never been able to find anything that backs up the 200 years thing

mostly because 'civilization' and 'empire' have such broad descriptions.
consensus seems to say it takes a people about 200 years to go from 'barbarity' to 'civilized'. maybe that's where it came from, and I recall there was false quote making the rounds a few years ago that referred to 'democracies only lasting 200 years'. darned if I can find it though. :shrug:

[Basileus Basileon]

8. It's pretty much bogus. "Democracies last 200 years?" Well, how would we know?

America was the first major Constitutional democratic republic. It seems to have survived so far. France, Britain, and the like show no signs of dissolving any time soon.

[pansypoo53219]

5. i found tons of them in a

bio of caligula. all of which i put on my blog 2002/2003 when i read it. found some in a 1907 orations book. but more in the british vols. was just reading about julius caesar last night and have found some there.

[Basileus Basileon]

7. Yes and no.

People often like to claim comparison to the final days of the Empire, but that's inaccurate. The biggest problem in Roman history--as well as in Byzantine history--was that of succession. In the final centuries, civil wars were unending, and for a time, emperors were lucky to last a year. Emperors became obsessed with their own stability, and maintaining the empire took a distant second place. Foreigners got in on the fun as well, first sponsoring coups and sitting puppets on the thrones, and later simply barging in and taking the throne for themselves. It was in this period that Rome slowly lost connections with its colonies, as self-appointed kings and warlords began replacing the old system of governance. Frankly, that isn't happening at all.

Perhaps there are some similarities to the fall of the Republic and the rise of the Empire, but even that seems suspect to me. Again, the problem was an over-strong military. With expansionism came greater power to individual generals, as the distances involved led to functional autonomy of military units. When generals became unaccountable--and loyalty to generals surpassed loyalty to the state--it was only a matter of time before there was a Caesar.

I do see some parallels to the waning days of the Byzantine empire. Frequent political scandals and religious issues distracted the Basileus, and the rest of the world grew hostile as the Byzantines manipulated and ignored them to further their own geopolitical agendas. Constant fighting against Muslim fanatics drained the coffers, and introduction of new technology rendered their old military dominance less effective as it also lessened the importance of Constantinople as the world's trade hub.

Fortunately, there is one fundamental difference: unlike the Byzantines, we can extract ourselves from the unwinnable conflicts in the Middle East.

[gateley]

12. Wow. This is good. Thanks for the education. You have a much deeper understanding

than many. And seeing "Basileus" in the text, I looked up the meaning. How does one address someone of your rank? :7

[Basileus Basileon]

14. "Kyrie" will do fine, thank you

;)

[gateley]

18. Well, 12 years of Catholic schools taught me SOMETHING -didn't have to look that one up! nt

[Tellurian]

9. Sure, I can equate whats happening now to the twins Romulus and Remus..

the Founders of the Roman Empire. The similarities between the parasitic twins, Edwards and Obama, who are carrying water for the Neocons and The New World Order.

And the irony is.. what is believed to be a notable discovery of their original cave near the ruins of the palace of Emperor Augustus on the Palatine hill just a day or two ago.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sci-cave24nov24,1,5020109.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

[Basileus Basileon]

10. That's just ridiculously convoluted.

[rufus dog]

16. are you referring to the statement or the person?

Either way you are correct.

[JohnLocke]

11. You're joking, right?

[gateley]

20. OT -- That was a FASCINATING story about the cave! Thanks! nt

[Tellurian]

29. I thought it was a timely event...considering!

[Odin2005]

13. The last century of the Roman Republic. Bush is Sulla.

[pansypoo53219]

21. sulla?

that's bad. just reading about him in the Julius Caesar entry in my 1891 encyclopedia britannica.
i keep finding turkeys that rise to power-caligula, napoleon and such. fewer FDR types.
georgie will go down as one of the larger turkeys.

[Catchawave]

15. Lead ? Roman aquaduct system v. Chinese toys ?

[AlertLurker]

17. I don't know about ROMAN history, but...

I read Thucydides' "History of the Peloponnesian War" this summer and the rhetoric and situations and machinations/manipulations of Athens v. Sparta reminded me over and over and over of EXACTLY what is going on in the USA RIGHT NOW...especially the (please stop laughing, I'm SERIOUS) "Lesbian Revolt."

UN-Friggin'-CANNY, really.

BEST
HISTORIAN
EVER.

[Basileus Basileon]

19. Iraq does have some parallels to the Sicilian Expedition,

and America's neoliberal "empire" to the Delian League.

It is fortunate there is no Sparta.

[Odin2005]

23. To be fair to Athens a lot of working class and merchant class people didn't mind the Delian League.

Or so I've read. Thucydides has a pro-aristocratic bias and downplayed the aristocratic connections of the supposedly "nationalistic," anti-Athens factions in the various city states. Workers and merchants were generally pro-Athens.

[Odin2005]

22. The Pelponnesian War is interesting. It was pretty much a Greece-wide class war...

...as much as anything else, with the pro-democracy working and merchant classes supporting Athens and reactionary aristocrats supporting Sparta. There was a large "fifth column" of aristocrats in Athens that wanted Sparta to win and eliminate Athens's democracy. Thucydides was a good historian, but keep in mind that he was an aristocrat and supported the aristocratic, anti-democratic faction in Athens and thus as a bias in that department, keep that in mind while reading his history.

Oh, and IIRC the use of thwe term "lesbian" to refer to gay women comes from the fact that there was a group of famous women poets on the island of Lesbos during classical times. :evilgrin:

[AlertLurker]

25. Pretty much applies to all residents (male OR female) of Lesbos, I'd say.

That's why the "stop laughing" admonition.

During the Pelopponesian War however, they were pretty recalcitrant - revolted a FEW times...

First Banana: "The lesbians are revolting!"

Second Banana: "You're telling me. They stink on ice!" (thank-you Mel Brooks)

:crazy:

[Basileus Basileon]

28. Yeah, "Lesbian" was a polite allusion to "Sapphic,"

which came from to Sappho, famed erotic poet.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

24. Only if you extend "Roman" to include 1920s-1930s Italy

[yellowcanine]

26. The declining Roman Empire relied a lot on merceneries to fight their wars?

That one seems a little scary given the rise of Blackwater et al.

[Odin2005]

27. A better comarison IMO is to leaders of the late republic with their own personal armies.

Before the reforms of Marius around 100 BC the Roman military was a non-professional force of conscripted militiamen loyal to the Roman state. After the reforms the military was a professional, quasi-mercenary force loyal to their general/politician.