Wes Clark endorses bush*: "We need them there..."

[sfecap]

In his own words:

NBC's Meet The Press, 11/16/03

(snip)

MR. RUSSERT: And we are back. General Clark, one of your opponents in the Democratic primary, Howard Dean, said your biggest problem may be convincing Democratic voters that you’re truly a Democrat. And what they refer to is now a famous speech you gave at a Republican county dinner on May 11, 2001. Let’s listen to a portion of that:

(Videotape, May 11, 2001):

GEN. CLARK: If you look around the world, there’s a lot of work to be done. And I’m very glad we’ve got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Paul O’Neill—people I know very well—our President George W. Bush. We need them there, because we’ve got some tough challenges ahead.

(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT: “A great team. We need them there.” And then on January 22, 2002, at Harding University in Arkansas, again, you added to that. Let’s watch.

(Videotape, January 22, 2002):

GEN. CLARK: I didn’t say this earlier, and I should have. I tremendously admire, and I think we all should, the great work done by our commander in chief, our president, George Bush, and the men and women of the United States armed forces.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3476052/

It's going to be fun to watch the RNC play these video clips over and over and over....and over...and over.

Nice going, Wes.

[wtmusic]

1. With enemies like Clark, who needs friends?

:silly:

[FrenchieCat]

20. With Friends like Dean....

who needs enemies???????????

[SahaleArm]

2. Spent all day and this is best of the best?

You're not googling hard enough - Figure out who he stumped for, to which people he made monetary contributions, and for whom did he vote? After all he was in the military bureaucracy so you could always accuse him of being a socialist ;)

[sfecap]

9. Not the point.

He was making these statements at republican fundraisers.

How does he refute this?

You know that it's going to run ad infinitum. It was dumb, and it's going to hurt his credibility badly.

And BTW...ther's lot's more where this comes from. Rove will pick his teeth with the General. LOL.

[SahaleArm]

27. Praised the assembled team before 9/11...

in the first speech and for the work of the armed forces (including the CNC-Bush) in Afghanistan in the soundbite (Jan-2002).

What's Bush going to say - Clark said I was doing well in May 2001 or in January 2002 (Afghanistan)? That's not that difficult to counter because between then and now Bush has screwed up foreign policy big time. In fact it would down right stupid because it's so easy to counter.

GEN. CLARK: That’s politics, Tim. But, you know, I’m not a politician, but I am a fair person. I supported the president in Afghanistan. I think we should have gone in there and stayed in there and gotten Osama bin Laden. And I give the men and women in the armed forces, including our commander in chief, who is at the top of the chain of command, the credit for waging a very effective campaign, as far as it went in Afghanistan. And I think you have to give credit where credit’s due.

As far as the earlier speech is concerned, you know, I did not vote for George W. Bush. I had reservations about it. But I do know Colin Powell and Paul O’Neill and Don Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. I wished them well. I wish they could have led this country well. I don’t want to see America fail. I don’t want to see another American soldier killed in Iraq or another American here at home lose a job. And I think it’s the duty of every American to put country above party.

[bowens43]

150. His judgment was severely lacking.

Most of us here knew what bush and Chaney were long before bush was appointed. We really can't afford to give the leadership of our party over to someone so gullible. His praise went well beyond wishing them well.

[bowens43]

149. Irrelevant.

The man is either a liar or an idiot. We know he's not an idiot.

His support of republicans is well known. If he doesn't understand the fundamental difference between the two mainstream parties then he has no place in a leadership role in the Democratic party. But I think he does understand the difference, he knows that the trust and goodness of mainstream democrats can be easily manipulated. He knows that with a few just a few words he can negate his past. He knows that he would never be anything more then a minor player in the repug party. He sees an opportunity to further the interests of General Clark and grabs it.

[Dookus]

3. Not once...

have I ever posted anything attacking another candidate. But after today, I'm rethinking my stand.

I, too, can scour the net and find all sorts of stuff against the other candidates. Perhaps I'll start just to keep things even.

Do you REALLY think this hasn't been brought up before? Do you REALLY think you're adding to the debate?

[Scott Lee]

6. You might want to ask your fellow Clark supporters

...who started this war and now appear to be faltering at finishing it.

When you start shoving Dean - you've pushed the wrong guy.

[Dookus]

19. nonsense...

no one side started this. BOTH sides can stop it. I wish you would.

[Clark Can WIN]

46. sweet of you to say nonsense

I was going to say FUCKING BULLSHIT!

But then it fits, all of Deans attacks on fellow Dems and then whining about being attacked............

"additude reflect leadership, capn'" - Remember the Titans

[BeyondGeography]

25. Is this the same Dean

who just went crying to ex-cockroach Terry McAuliffe for help now that the opposition is giving him a dose of his own medicine?

[sfecap]

32. Actually the post is re Clark...

...but hey, turn it into a Dean bashfest if you want to. But some of your fellow Clark supporters don't think that is a good thing...

[BeyondGeography]

41. Sorry, but we were told

by Scott never to mess with the fearsome (albeit periodically whiny) Dean. I thought it fair to respond. See above.

[TLM]

63. Hey! You're not supposed to hit back?

It is amazing to me that these same clark supporters will attack half a sentence from some shit Dean said 10 years ago... yet show Clark praising BUsh a year or too ago and that's all it the past and doesn't matter.

These are the same people that have a shit fit over Dean not making a special point of saying Kucinich was also against the war... yet when their guy does a lewinski on Bush and his crew, that's perfectly OK.

Are they blind?

[sfecap]

17. It's his words.

It isn't an attack. This is what he'll have to refute as a nominee. And this is a snippet of why he's a terrible choice for the Democratic nomination.

Sorry if you can't deal with it, but Clark is not a strong candidate, other than his nice uniform.

[KC21304]

28. Come on you guys, let them stew alone in their hatred. It isn't worth it

to give them more exposure.

Clark is too fine a man to have his supporters give this rubbish a second glance.

[Clark Can WIN]

50. Amen baby.............

So is Kerry.

[cavebat2000]

34. I agree

[ima_sinnic]

4. I am a Dean supporter and I heartily denounce this bash

. . . can you please tell me what possible constructive purpose this post has?

[sfecap]

10. Not a bash.

This is what will be rolled out should Clark become the nominee.

Get used to it. It's valid.

[FrenchieCat]

5. Now, I know that I've done this before.....

on re-reading clark's lincoln day speech:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004065

here is the full paragraph of contention:
------------------
You see, in the Cold War we were defensive. We were trying to protect our country from communism. Well guess what, it's over. Communism lost. Now we've got to go out there and finish the job and help people live the way they want to live. We've got to let them be all they can be. They want what we have. We've got some challenges ahead in that kind of strategy. We're going to be active, we're going to be forward engaged. But if you look around the world, there's a lot of work to be doneAnd I'm very glad we've got the great team in office: men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condolzeezza Rice, Paul O'Neill--people I know very well--our president, George W. Bush. We need them there, because we've got some tough challenges ahead in Europe.
----------------------
notice he says he is glad to have them in office for the challenges ahead in EUROPE!
in the next two paragraphs he further defines the european challenges:
-------------------------
We've got a NATO that's drifting right now. I don't know what's happened to it. But the situation in the Balkans where we've still got thousands of American troops, it's in trouble. It's going downhill on us as we're watching it. Our allies haven't quite picked up the load on that. But our allies say they're going to build a European security and defense program with a rival army to NATO. Well, I think it's a political imperative that they do more for defense, but I think we have to understand that that linkage between the United Sates and Europe, that bond on security, that's in our interest.

Look, in politics they told me--I don't know anything about politics now, I want to make that clear. But they told me--I read, do my reading in Time magazine and so forth. And they said in politics you've always got to protect your base. Well, for the United States, our base is Europe. We've got to be there, and we've got to be engaged in Europe. And that means we've got to take care of NATO, we've got to make sure the Europeans stay in it, and we've got to stay with the problem in the Balkans, even though we don't like it. We will get it resolved, and we'll help bring democracy and Westernization to those countries there.

[FrenchieCat]

11. More of the speech

two paragraphs up from the maligned "praise" we find this:
------------------------
But we're also extremely vulnerable. Our economy--we're using three times--we've got three times as much foreign investment as we're investing--capital flow--as we're putting out there. They're investing here because they believe in us. We're using energy like it's going out of style. We're using five to eight times as much energy per capita as people in the rest of the world, twice as much as even the Europeans. We're vulnerable to security threats--everything from terrorism to the developing missiles that are--we know rogue states are developing to aim at us. (pre 9/11)

And so I think we have to have a new strategy, and we have to have a consensus on the strategy, and we have to have a bipartisan consensus, and politics has to stop in America at the water's edge. We've got to reach out, and we've got to find those people in the world and share our values and beliefs--and we've got to reinforce them. We've got to bring them here and let them experience the kind of life that we have. They've got to get an education here. They've got to be able to send their children here. They they've got to go home. And they've got to carry the burdens in their own lands, and to some extent we have to help them.
----------------------------
notice that in the first paragraph clark talks enviromentalism to a republican audience.
also note the warning about terrorism pre-9/11.
notice in the second paragraph he talks about bipartisanship, and reaching out to the world community. two traits that he shares spot on with his positions today.

[wtmusic]

13. Nice try Frenchie

So the implication is that Wes thinks Bush's team would be great in Europe but incompetent elsewhere? Whoo hah, that's a real genou-slapper...

[FrenchieCat]

18. You can't read....

Someone up top of thread reprinted his words...and left out the, oops, last part........about Europe.

This was the Frmr SACEUR...that would be Europe...he is talking about NATOs future and Europe partnership...duh....

[mikehiggins]

31. Of course they can read

that is why this constitutes a "bash" or a "smear".

Apparently Clark has suddenly become a threat to the Dean juggernaut and stuff like this is a result.

We should take it as a compliment.

[sfecap]

35. Of course...

Attack the messenger.

It's your candidate who praises neocons and the very man he is trying to beat.

The RNC will kill him with this stuff.

It will be in an ad, guaranteed.

[kodi]

51. no attack on the messenger, but the methods of deceit that were used

the right wing is noted for its use of taking things out of context, cutting and pasting from a variety of sources to make a whole cloth of lies and when caught then implying that it was all just an interpretation or mistake.

the original post as well as previous post was a pretty good example of this.

[sfecap]

54. As are the dozens of anti Dean posts here each and every day.

Think about it.

BTW...this was from ONE source. No cut and paste. But thanks for playing. :-)

[kodi]

140. so, you are proud to be a lemming, how nice for you.

apparently by your btw comment, you can't read very well.

folks like you who support dean are one of the reasons his campaign turns off a lot of people.

insufferably puerile and smug.

you should move out of your parents basement and get a life.

[wtmusic]

37. Hello? Is anyone home?

That's the point Frenchie. You believe Wes's remarks about Bush having a great team only apply in Europe?

Wes has yet to be weaned from the military/industrial teat, and anyone who thinks Wes is a diplomat after nearly engaging the Russian army over control of an airport is delusional.

[Clark Can WIN]

56. Anyone who buys the propeganda of the racist genocial monters

Or who is so small minded as to automatically reject any person in a uniform would have rejected almost every single great leader this country has known.

The danger does not lie in those who have met the beast, but in those who have purchased their way away and then laughed.

[robbedvoter]

21. You mean he tells them to cooperate and not go to war? Disappointing, non?

I mean, he is a militaristic whatchamacallit, how dares he not say:
"we should give Saddam 30-60 days then we should go to war unilaterally if we have to"
or
"others criticized the president, i chose not to do so. it's easy to second guess the commander in chief..."
Are these not this words you say? What? Another candidate endorsed W and not criticizing in time of war? Who was that you say? Not HD! Not THE ONLY candidate who opposed war from the start!

[Cocoa]

7. this again?

don't you think people have decided by now what they think about this?

This propaganda style shit is ruining DU.

[sfecap]

12. Gosh, it sure is.

Especially the ABD threads posted by the dozens every day here.

[Cocoa]

22. yeah, it's on all sides

You're absolutely right.

But what I don't get, if you hate it so much why are you one of its enthusiastic practitioners?

[Dookus]

26. Thank you Cocoa....

it's absolutely insane. People object to baseless slams, and their response is to come back with more baseless slams. It's utterly childish.

[sfecap]

43. Well, I guess it's in the eye of the beholder.

The point of this thread is to offer the fact that WES Clark isn't the mighty omnipotent candidate that many of you think he is. He has weaknesses, and he has soft spots that will be exploited. This is one of them. As many anti Dean folks are all too happy to point out about HD, I think we need to get real about the terrible weaknesses of WC. He may not be what you think he is. If that is a bash, so be it.

There is tons of oppo stuff that has yet to be pulled out on him.

You better get used to it, because just as HD is getting his turn in the barrel, the knives are about to come out for Clark. You won't like it, just as I don't like to see my candidate unfairly attacked by fellow DUers.

But, as the folks who run this place say...it's the primaries...

Tell you what, when the fine Clark supporters here decide that they will protest in masse the egregious attacks on HD from their camp, we can all call a truce. Until then, one has to respond in kind. After all, it is the primaries.

[Cocoa]

52. but it's been rehashed to death

by the time of that Russert interview, it had been beaten into the ground. I was yelling at Russert.

And now you out-Russert Russert by dredging it up again. Nice going, way to mire DU in stale old shit. :toast:

[sfecap]

55. Gee, it's from November.

Not too stale, in light of the fact that stuff Howard Dean said 12 years ago is getting posted and parsed here every day.

If the heats too hot....

[Cocoa]

61. it was stale over a month ago

he's been answering this question for months.

It's not irrelevant, it's just that EVERYONE KNOWS ALREADY!

And like I said, it's on all sides, what does that have to do with anything? To use that as an excuse is just lame. If you haven't noticed, you're in a small group of people out of the thousands here, taht does this crap. I hope you're proud.

[sfecap]

71. He's going to answer it many more times, too.

And he's going to have to answer things like questions about his integrity and far worse.

Crap? It's called politics. Clark isn't my candidate. I guess all is fair here. Gee, wasn't it just a week ago the Clark supporters were delightfully "examining" Howard Dean's brothers death records and accusing Dean of using his brother's tragic death for political gain? Or was the Kerry camp? Of course when Dean supporters like myself protested....well, let's just say nobody seemed too sympathetic...

Like I said...if the heat is getting too hot...:-)

[mikehiggins]

86. For people who's candidate is such a frontrunner

you seem like an awfully frightened bunch of complainers.

Do you know something about your candidate that you'd rather we didn't find out?

Nyahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Seriously, I've seen stuff like this before and its all crap.

Sooner or later Dean is going to go too far, even for you guys, and it'll all be over and done.

Probably by February.

[sfecap]

96. Dean is going to go far...

...right to the White House. LOL.


"Do you know something about your candidate that you'd rather we didn't find out?"

Nope. It's pretty much all been dredged up here over the last six months....and he just keeps getting stronger.

And we agree on one thing...by February, this will pretty much be over. :-)

[mikehiggins]

104. No problem skycap Just remember ABB when the Democratic

convention winds to a close. I'd hate to lose your dedication and commitment to the Democratic Party.

[janx]

8. I can take it that he voted for Nixon and Reagan...

but I can't take it that he endorsed this.

No Way.

[FrenchieCat]

15. endorsed what?????

www.liberalresurgent.com/mooreclark.mp3

[floridaguy]

14. sad post (n/t)

[Memekiller]

16. Dean says Bush "Good guy"

"I like George Bush, he's a good guy."

- Howard Dean

<http://www.deanforamericans.com/>

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[revcarol]

24. We need them there....for Europe.

Clark probably just doesn't have good future-predicting powers, since Bush has ALIENATED about 90% of Europe.

And NOT just over Iraq. Clark can pick 'em, all right.

[robbedvoter]

30. he didn't pick them - Scalia did. He tried to enlighten them about

their responsibilities to the world, which was the responsible thing to do.

[Rowdyboy]

29. How sad

Nothing good to say about Dr Dean, huh?

[FrenchieCat]

33. What's going to be even more fun is watching

the Wes Clark commercial.......

They will show the Clark tape saying those things about Bush & CO.......

Then Clark will come on and say..."yes, like many of you American voters, I too held out the best hopes for Bush and his administration, especially after 9/11.

But Bush took the goodwill given to him for our tradegy all over the world and he did a classic bait and switch....

next thing you know, we were invading IRAQ.....and chasing Saddam...

Now Saddam is no Osama.....and 9/11 was not done by Saddam.....

President Bush sometimes got Saddam and Osama mixed up. But most Americans should know that Saddam has no links to 9/11. No, It's Osama we are still looking for. The one that did 9/11.

But I can tell you this, those 500 soldiers who gave their lives to fight a war that wasn't neccessary.......Bush cannot bring them back...

And that 167 Billion dollars that is being used in Iraq for their rebuilding...it could have been used for ours....

Say No to Bush........we gave him a chance.....
now, we deserve better.

Vote for me, Wes Clark, because I believe in peace...
and I believe that we should only, only, only use force
as the last resort.....

I'm Wes Clark, and I approve of this message."

[ochazuke]

36. These attacks may actually strengthen Clark in the general election

He could come off as bi-partisan, but convinced to run because the administration went off course.

This could parallel the public's support for Bush in late 2001 and 2002, followed by increasing skepticism going into the election.

However, it certainly sounds bad to a partisan Democrat, so it hurts him for now.

[sfecap]

39. Interesting take on it.

And you may have a point.

Of course, many question his Democratic credentials due to the fact that when he spoke these words they were at a fundraiser for republicans.

That makes it a bit messier.

[FrenchieCat]

40. on edit.....

Clark also attended Democratic fundraisers in that same year. He also contributed and helped/advised and campaigned for Democrats in 2002.

So you can keep going on about "Fundraisers"...he got paid for this one........that's the only way they could get him.

---------------------------------------------
The tapes help Clark in the General...which is supposed to be the priority in beating Bush.....


But if Democrats were smart...they could see it like that.....

But the ones here that are talking about Rove using the tape for a commercial are no smarter than the RW......

Good thing that Clark and his campaign is!

I guess you don't become a Rhode Scholar for nothing!

Notice how Clark is able to stay closest to Dean WITHOUT the big media.....now, that's what I call a winner....

Just think if the regular voters really find out about the qualities of Clark.....that's why they are afraid to give him any air time.

[wtmusic]

42. yes, the media are afraid to give Clark air time

now I know I've heard it all.

:nopity:

[FrenchieCat]

44. And the funny thing about it...

is that you know it's true.....

I won't call it D----l though....cause I might get a demerit.

Cause we have to watch what we say....

[Cheswick2.0]

142. I have heard that Clark doesn't get air time

It is of course ridiculous.

[pocoloco]

45. There is no doubt about it.

I saw the Meet the Press interview and came out looking great, despite the efforts of russet. He put hannity's tail between his legs on fox and a few weeks later put another fox commentator in his place.
After NH event on C-Span I don't think anyone will question his patriotism! ("or get the shit beat out of them")

No problems with the press and certainly no problems here he can't handle.

[Brian_Expat]

94. Au contraire

Ever see a Karl Rove attack ad?

Here's the script Rove would use.

ANNOUNCER: Wesley Clark says that President Bush is taking America in the wrong direction in the war on terror. He says he has a better plan for America than President Bush. But here's what he said about the President's conduct on the War on Terror just last year:

CLARK: I like all the people who are there . I've worked with them before.

ANNOUNCER: But that's not all.

CLARK: If you look around the world, there’s a lot of work to be done. And I’m very glad we’ve got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Paul O’Neill—people I know very well—our President George W. Bush. We need them there, because we’ve got some tough challenges ahead.

ANNOUNCER: We agree with the Democratic nominee for President. America needs the continued strong leadership of President Bush.

*FADE TO BLACK* (and not just for the advertisement)

[mikehiggins]

102. Fortunately for us, Clark will not be Bush's main concern

The airwaves and mailboxes and email accounts of this nation will be chock full of ads and notices from all sorts of people, all concentrated on hammering the Bush administration with facts and images that will undermine the fantasy of his presidency.

There will be no holds barred on either side so there will not be a scenario where Willie Horton ads run unopposed and unchallenged throughout the campaign. Bush has gored a lot of folks, including a lot of conservative republicans who puke at the thought of the huge deficits and swollen federal payrolls Bush has given them.

Give the American public someone to vote for who is better than what we now have and they'll vote for him.

When the dust settles at the convention, I'm pretty thoroughly convinced that man will be Wes Clark. Take it to the bank.

[Brian_Expat]

110. I think it's far too early to say who the Dem nominee will be

But I think this issue is a thermonuclear bomb in Rove's arsenal, to be rolled out to seed truly toxic FUD. It makes a lot of Clark's "bite" on foreign policy rather quadraplegic -- putting Clark on the defensive every time he condemns Bush's strategy.

Bush in a precanned line for the debate: "You said I had a great team and America needed us there, now you say it isn't so great. When was your judgment awry, then or now?"

[mikehiggins]

114. No, actually it isn't. Wait and see.

Clark will be the nominee when the convention ends.

I don't want to bore you with scenarios. Just watch closely what happens between now and the end of January. It should be both interesting and educational for those folks new to Democratic politics.

[ima_sinnic]

38. the mods need to set up a separate playpen

to confine the people who want to persist with these pointless distortions--from all sides.
Hello? Democrats need to unite against Bush, non? So again I say, what is the point of dredging up muck against a Democrat?
And btw I am a Dean supporter--and crap like this makes me sick.

[Dookus]

49. thanks, sinnic....

I just received an obnoxious PM from a Dean supporter who felt obliged to insult me. I responded that in my nearly 5000 posts, s/he would not find ONE that attacks another candidate.

I understand that 99% of the Dean supporters don't engage in these silly tactics. But boy oh boy, that 1% sometimes makes it hard to support their guy.

If he's the nominee, I guarantee I'll vote for him. I wish they'd guarantee the same. I've seen 3 people here just today who claimed that if Dean weren't the nominee, they wouldn't vote for the Dem. Sad.

[Memekiller]

59. To quote the DU rules...

"Negative attacks are an unavoidable part of any political campaign, and therefore they are permitted against any Democratic presidential candidate. However, once the Democratic party officially nominates its candidate for president, then the time for fighting is over and the negative attacks against candidates must stop. The administrators of this website do not wish for our message board to be used as a platform to attack and tear down the only progressive on the planet with any hope of defeating George W. Bush."

A primary is all about determining who the Democratic nominee will be. But as far as I'm concerned, anyone who refuses to support that nominee if it's not their candidate doesn't belong on these forums. They should stump for their candidate somewhere else.

[Code_Name_D]

98. Too bad that rule no longer applies

given how one of our own libiral canadates from the house has been banned for receaving death threats from a Clark supporter.

Any body but bush, mean only Bush can win.

[maddezmom]

146. death threats?

first time I heard this, who threatened who?

[mikehiggins]

91. Then I guess we've lost their votes

I'm more and more convinced that Dean is going to fall short, one way or the other.

It isn't one or two things that I can pin down, but I've been doing this stuff for as long as most people here have been alive, and my gut feeling is he's about to crash and burn.

There is something out there and sooner or later it'll come back home to roost.

No way he's getting nominated.

[maddezmom]

145. thanks...great idea

:)

[wiley]

47. Wesley Clark will obliterate Bush with those very words

As a 9/11 survivor who lost my brothers I can tell you that we all supported any effort to make sure this never happened to anyone again. Clark was very concerned to make sure the administration got it right; he openly states that. But the most damning and effective thing he says is that all of us, even Republicans and Independents, were bitterly disappointed with how Bush went after Iraq and left us hanging. Bush and his cronies destroyed the good will that poured out from throughout the word after 9/11. For that alone he deserves to pay. A military tribunal should decide the punishment Bush will receive for his abuse of veterans and currently active servicemen and women. We would shed blood to destroy Bin laden, but not blood for Iraq. Clark will also make it very clear that Bush's massive strategic mistake, despite temporary public support in some quarters, has destroyed the domestic economy and our whole democracy. One thing I've learned is that I'm not afraid of anything anymore. I know hundreds of police officers and military men and women and Independents and Republicans and lots of Democrats who believe that only Wesley Clark can credibly describe the staggering disappointment that we all felt when Bush baited and switched. Hell hath no fury like a great American scorned. Bush will implode under the blunt, incontestable confrontations by Clark on Bush's actions. Wesley Clark will win - the general election - using just those statements you believe damaging.

:kick: www.clark04.com

[sfecap]

53. Any of the candidates...

...(with the exception of LIEberman) can make and have made those points. Clark has no corner on the obvious.

My deepest condolences for your loss.

[Code_Name_D]

103. How? By running on Bush's coat tails?

The republicans are going to call Wes a trator to the Republican party, and its gona stick.

[Cheswick2.0]

143. the problem with your reasoning

All the things your candidate "will do" any of the candidates "will do". Some of them, like Clark, Gephardt, Kerry and Edwards will have it thrown right back in their face that they supported bush. The one most vulnerable to that tactic will be Clark.

[TiredTexan]

48. I came to DU with the hope, vain though it seems now,

of finding like-minded people who were focused on beating Bush.

We stand on the precipice of the most dangerous time in the history of our nation. This administration is destroying everything, everything good and honest and democratic about us. Everything.

Yet many of you spend your time attacking each other, and each other's candidates. Not Bush. Not the problems. Each other.

To quote a famous line: "I have met the enemy, and it is us." Throwing nasty accusations at each other, yelling instead of discussing, threatening to not vote if your first choice is not nominated, is destroying this party each day more and more. And in destroying the party, we are destroying the last chance for this country and our children. Our last chance for the future.

So keep up your screaming at each other. You aren't convincing anyone that your candidate is better. You're just strengthening Bush and destroying the party and our chances.

We need to fight alright. But not each other.

I'm sad. I'm ashamed. But most of all I'm scared shitless. Because if we don't get it together, there's no one else that will.

Grow up. Wake up. And pledge to work together for the sake of this country.

Stop attacking our candidates. Pledge to support whomever gets the nomination.

This is my last post. I didn't come to fight or destroy. I came to learn and build.

DU is not doing this.

[sfecap]

58. Great post, TT...

We've all said the same thing. The irony is that if this were an anti Dean thread, not many of those who are bemoaning the "bashing" would be saying a word. They'd be joining in.

I've long since given up.

[mikehiggins]

107. Yet you still take part. n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

144. Oh really?

It seems to me you came right out of the box trying to destroy the support for Howard Dean. How exactly does that jibe with your post here today?

[Tom Rinaldo]

57. That is what you think the Republicans will throw at Clark?

You really don't get it do you? You are so blinded by your (reasonable) haters of Bush that you honestly can't see how a Bush vs. Clark campaign would play out. I won't even comment on how you took that last quote completely out of context (it related to the overthrow of the Taliban in Afghanistan). It so angers you to hear a Democrat say anything nice about Bush that to you, that's the ball game, they caught Clark "endorsing" Bush and there's no way he can possibly talk his way out of THAT one.

What you suggest the Republicans will use against Clark is not what they will use, for two basic reasons.

One, it is always the unexpected that wounds, the dirt dug up against you that you are ill prepared to respond to, never the obvious stuff. High level national campaign staffs are highly skilled at what they do. They will have a hundred possible retorts prepared for Clark, all focus group tested for the killer "Clark praised Bush" attack response.

Two, those quotes by Clark about Bush expose Bush's greatest weakness, and further establishes Clark's sincerity and standing as Bush's opponent in the eyes of the public. They polish Clark's reputation, not tarnish it. Clark may actually use some of that footage himself, that's what I expect. If he doesn't he at the very least will be the one to point out how willing he was to give Bush a chance, and how fair he was about giving praise where praise is due, which perfectly sets Clark up to make the kill. It wasn't partisan fueled politics that drove Clark into the race, no it was the high hopes dashed, the opportunities squandered, the good will wasted, the wise council rejected, and 40 years of an essentially bipartisan approach to foreign policy unexpectedly thrown out the window by George W. Bush.

The strong majority of the American people have not forgotten what they were feeling about George W. Bush immediately after 9/11, or after the fall of Kabul when America wrested control of Afghanistan away from the terrorists who attacked America. You can even go back further. There is always a honeymoon period for a new President after he takes office. 95% of the Cabinet and Sub Cabinet appointments are met with bipartisan praise. Americans like to feel hopeful, they want to think things will go well. The opposition party picks a few fights carefully during that honeymoon period. The Democrats picked Ashcroft in 2001, Rumsfeld got the praise treatment along with almost all of the rest of Bush's administration (there was a love fest for Colin Powell).

So here comes a candidate, Wesley Clark, who is able to say, I understand how you felt then. We wanted Bush to succeed in the fight against terror. We pulled together behind him, all of us, myself included. We left partisanship behind at the waters edge, and we believed Bush was up to the job. Sadly we were mistaken.

That's really how most American's feel about it. A third flat out love Bush, a third flat out hate Bush, those votes will break expectedly. And the final third initially rallied to Bush's leadership in a time of war. That third can relate well to Clark. They understand his initial instincts to support our President when America was under real danger from attack. Sure, now we have lived through two plus years without another major terrorist blow, and we have calmed down somewhat, but then we thought it might all happen again tomorrow. People weren't in the mood for dissension then, they wanted unity. Clark won't look like a shrill Democrat looking for ways to attack our President for political advantage. Clark is "the reluctant warrior", stepping forward for the good of the nation one more time after a lifetime of bipartisan service. Real events and mounting concerns compelled Clark to oppose Bush, not a predisposition to hate him. That will resonate in Clark's advantage with that middle third.

It is the perfect lead in for Clark to talk about the Draft Clark movement he responded to, and why. Take my word for it, or at least keep an open mind, Clark will not run away from earlier positive statements made about Republicans, he will turn them to his advantage establishing credibility with the public.

[Brian_Expat]

62. My question. . .

Do we want a presidential candidate who described the neo-con Dubya Dream Team as "great" and "capable"? I mean, if they're so great, why run against them?

This is a disaster, any way you look at it. Those clips will be played, out of context, over and over and over and over. If Tim Russert has these clips, you'd better believe Karl Rove has them too.

[Tom Rinaldo]

70. Seems like yet another failed meeting of minds

I could swear you didn't even read my post, but I am sure that you must have, if for no other reason than to look for some point to attack back on.

At least in his reply Sfecap argued that Rowe would use other stuff against Clark. Of course they will find stuff to use against Clark, if they didn't have anything handy they would make it up. I find it amusing though to think that anyone supposes that General Clark will wither under attack. And there are lots of military men who support Clark, by the way, including high brass and many who served under him. Try Veterans for Clark http://www.veteransforclark2004.us/ for starters, or view "An American Son" at Clark's Web site www.clark04.com

Anyway folks, time to turn in. Don't leave the lights on.

[Brian_Expat]

85. It's not "withering under attack" I am worried about

Clark has just handed Rove a devastating number of advertisements that undermine Clark's contention he's a major critic of the administration's policy. This is beyond awkward. It would be like Howard Dean going up and saying "Bush has the right domestic policies and a great team in place when it comes to jobs" in early 2003. That would utterly destroy his campaign in a general election.

This is going to be a seriously difficult problem to fix. I fear Clark torpedoed his campaign with those statements. :(

[mikehiggins]

109. Well, we'll just have to cope, somehow, won't we?

Hopefully Clark will be able to count on your support when he begins to campaign as the head of the ticket in 2004.

Your dedication to ABB and the Party will be very appreciated.

[Brian_Expat]

112. Why cope?

If Clark truly believes what he said as presented here, we should have another candidate on the ticket -- particularly given Clark's strategy of running "on foreign policy."

[mikehiggins]

115. I'm afraid he's beyond being convinced of that, Expat.

See you in Boston.

[sfecap]

64. "The reluctant warrior" LOL.

Clark is a self absorbed narcissist. Ask people who have worked with him.

The rove machine will roll over Clark like a ton of bricks. They have stuff that I wouldn't even post here. The above is mild.

Clark has neither the savvy or political experience to handle what is coming his way. Wait until they roll out the "why was Clark fired" commercials. Wait until the quotes from fellow Generals questioning Clark's "integrity". You ain't seen nothin yet.

Clark won't last a month when the lens gets focused on him.

Of course, this is probably all a moot point, because Clark actually getting the nomination is doubtful. Thank god.

[mikehiggins]

111. Still and all, who has the ad with Clinton hanging a medal on him?

Such an unfair world we live in.

Keep that in mind when Dean comes up short at the finish line.

[sfecap]

118. And I will expect an ad

That exploits the fact that Clinton allowed him to be fired, and that fellow Generals who have served with him have questioned his "integrity".

Nice way to leave the military.

"Successful" war, gets fired. That ought to play well with middle America.

Of course you'll be voting for Howard Dean in November long after Wesley's gone, right?

[mikehiggins]

120. Most information we recieve comes through our eyes

One picture with a medal trumps all sorts of talking heads.

And if you think any major military officer is going to appear on camera attacking another member of the club, well, I think you are somewhat naive.

As for the "successful war, gets fired" scenario, that will in fact resonate with the American people. We expect to get fucked if we show up our bosses. Wes could win just on that one issue alone.

And its unlikely I'll be called upon to vote for Dean once the convention closes. I just hope most of those "dedicated" newcomers Dean has brought into the party will tough out their disappointment and keep on with ABB.

Us old political types would really miss their childlike enthusiasm.

[sfecap]

134. Old political types...

Of which I am.

If you think that Clark will gain much from an association with Clinton, well...you should know better.

If Clark needs to attract the middle, moderate repubs and Independents, he ain't gonna do it that way.

It will be nice to have you voting for Dean. Remember...ABB, right?

[Brian_Expat]

60. Whoa

Those quotes are just plain shocking. Talk about a Rove wet dream. :wow:

[sfecap]

69. Well, if you liked that...you'll love this:

From an interview with Jake Tapper, Salon.com earlier this year:


Tapper: Of the people who are running this war, from Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Don Rumsfeld and Powell on down, in terms of the political appointees, are there are any who you particularly like who you would work with again, hypothetically, in some ...

Clark: I like all the people who are there. I've worked with them before. I was a White House Fellow in the Ford administration when Secretary Rumsfeld was White House chief of staff and later Secretary of Defense, and Dick Cheney was the deputy chief of staff at the White House and later the chief.

Paul Wolfowitz I've known for many, many years. Steve Hadley at the White House is an old friend. Doug Feith I worked with very intensively during the time we negotiated the Dayton Peace Agreement; he was representing the Bosnian Muslims then, along with Richard Perle. So I like these people a lot. They're not strangers. They're old colleagues.

[Brian_Expat]

73. OMG

I didn't know any of this. I am stunned. :wow:

[sfecap]

76. Brian...

Have you read this?

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031215&s=taibbi

[Brian_Expat]

81. I read that piece and thought it was an unfair attack job

BUT I was not aware of the statements about the "great job" the Bush administration is doing. Wow. That's really shocking to me.

I mean, that's not a "Bush is an OK fellow" or a "nice guy" statements -- colloquial banter. That's a "the neo-cons are my friends and colleagues and are doing a great job" quote. Shocking.

I want to learn more about this. Clark supporters, exactly what is the basis for Clark's compliments? Are they out of context? They don't look too good to me. . .

[Cheswick2.0]

147. Yowza

<<<In a room full of people in satin jackets embroidered with union acronyms, Clark entered flanked by a pair of boosters dressed in shiny red VFW jackets. Seeming harried, he gave a short address that was laden with military metaphors: "I'm going to go on the warpath to stop that," "We have to attack on the employment front" and so on. As his speech went on, it became painfully clear that Clark had the idea of workers confused with soldiers. "As I stand here today, I tell you that in the Army, we knew that the unit was never any better than its parts," he said. "The generals weren't any better than the soldiers. When you're in uniform, you're part of a team..."

Heads turned in shock all throughout the audience. What the hell was he talking about? But Clark plowed on. He began to recount his biography, noting that the Army had allowed him to "be all he could be." Five minutes later, he said it again. "Every part of this society," he said, "has to get the support that they need to be all they can be."

After the conference, I chased after him in the parking lot. "General," I said. "You're not seriously going to make 'Be all you can be' your campaign slogan, are you?"

He smiled, then gave me a little nudge with his elbow, apparently thinking I was with him on this one. "Son," he said, "it is my campaign slogan." >>>>>

[FrenchieCat]

72. Next time....

read the whole thread....cause I can't believe that you did....

if you had, your response would have been different...

pity...I thought DUers had a reputation to uphold!


OBJECTS ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR!

[Brian_Expat]

77. Oh, mon ami. . .

Je prefere un critique de Bush en tant que mon candidat. Un démocrate véritable devrait posséder la nomination de la parti démocratique!

Vive les démocrates véritables!

[FrenchieCat]

89. Veritable comme tes crottes de nez peut etre?

[Brian_Expat]

95. Ahhh, les mots d'un bébé n/t

[Tinoire]

113. Awwwww

Such stunning depth!

To think I used to have to read a variety of boards to get that "depth"...

Eternal thanks.

Good to know that a Clark supporter can speak so authoritavely about 'crottes de nez'.

[Tinoire]

92. Salut et super!

:thumbsup:

:toast: pour les démocrates véritables!

[bowens43]

151. The cartoon says it all

Clark is a man trained to see military solutions to political problems. That's the last thing a free country needs. Who can possibly doubt that the military solution will always be the first and correct solution with this guy. What has happened to our party when so many will give even passing consideration to this product of military indoctrination?

[TrueAmerican]

65. Go Clark!

You are right to be afraid. Keep on attacking if that makes you feel better. But please no web cam with your pants down around your ankles and with one hand on your mouse and the other on your stick as you get off posting this crappola.

[Brian_Expat]

66. I am genuinely confused here. . .

Isn't Clark supposed to be running against Condi, Rummy, O'Neill (rest in peace politically), Powell, and especially "our President George W. Bush"?

[FrenchieCat]

75. Yes....

you are confused! But willingly so!

[mikehiggins]

119. No, he's running against George Bush.

Bush is the President.

Clark is running for President.

If he wins the election, then all those other folks are out of work, Bill Clinton becomes the Ambassador to the UN, and all sorts of other weird and wonderful marvels ensue.

Its a big world after all...

[Brian_Expat]

122. Not yet he's not

We have this thing called the "primary election" that comes up first, and right now, the numbers show that Clark is in the middle of the field of three likely nominees. Let's not put the cart before the horse, shall we?

[mikehiggins]

123. Sure, brian. Whatever makes you happy ;^) n/t

[Brian_Expat]

126. Democracy makes me happy, not command-n-control. :-) n/t

[mikehiggins]

130. Well then, I guess you'll have to just vote for some third party candidate

The libertarians usually have some good ideas.

[Brian_Expat]

137. So you're not big into democracy I take it? n/t

[ErasureAcer]

67. Wes Clark isn't a democrat...a plea for people to support Kucinich

how the fuck is he running for the dem nomination?

I tell ya...my brother and I were talking over Xmas that we gotta get bush out of office no matter what...I was like...I'm not voting for Lieberman...and I don't think I can vote for Clark either...

I hate Kerry, Gephardt, and Edwards for their vote on the war. And I hate Dean just because he isn't even liberal(not that the previous 3 are either)...

but ya know what I MAY just vote for those 4.

Clark and Lieberman they don't even deserve a D next to their name since they're so fucking conservative...you can't even pass them off as moderate.

I ask all you guys, for the sake of the nation, and taking out Bush...please support Dennis Kucinich. The man is a liberal with a record to back it up.

Just getting Bush out of office isn't going to solve our problems with Dean, Kerry, Gephardt or Edwards in office...and nominating Clark and Lieberman is just as good as voting for Bush...not much, if anything is going to change.

Please, please, please...support Dennis Kucinich. If you want to rock the vote, you have to rock the boat. Dennis is the only one who is 100% opposite of GW Bush in terms of thinking and vision.

[Brian_Expat]

68. I am still reeling over this. . .

:(

[FrenchieCat]

74. I think you were reeling before hand.....

i't called a tizzy.....

now read again....since you forgot!

here is the full paragraph of contention:
------------------
You see, in the Cold War we were defensive. We were trying to protect our country from communism. Well guess what, it's over. Communism lost. Now we've got to go out there and finish the job and help people live the way they want to live. We've got to let them be all they can be. They want what we have. We've got some challenges ahead in that kind of strategy. We're going to be active, we're going to be forward engaged. But if you look around the world, there's a lot of work to be doneAnd I'm very glad we've got the great team in office: men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condolzeezza Rice, Paul O'Neill--people I know very well--our president, George W. Bush. We need them there, because we've got some tough challenges ahead in Europe.
----------------------
Notice he says he is glad to have them in office for the challenges ahead in EUROPE!
in the next two paragraphs he further defines the European challenges:
-------------------------

[FrenchieCat]

78. Then listen to this....

Because you will understand better the ridiculousness of your statements....both of you!

www.liberalresurgent.com/mooreclark.mp3

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ErasureAcer]

82. Condi Rice, Rummy, and Colon aren't a "great team"

aren't a "great team" any place, any where, any time or under any circumstances.

Wes Clark needs to visit a psychiatric hospital.

[Brian_Expat]

83. That was my first reaction too.

Anyone who thinks Condi, Bush, Rummy, Colin and Co are a "great team" for anything other than mass resignation is going to have trouble getting my vote I must say.

These quotes are new to me. And I don't buy the "Europe only" because in the preceding sentence, Clark talks about "challenges around the world." I think he should immediately step forward and repudiate those statements.

Even if he does, however, the damage is done. Tim Russert showed him those clips, which means Rove more than likely has them stockpiled with ready-made commercials. He'll use them to slaughter Clark as an "opportunist who agrees with the administration" and he'll argue to keep Bush in order to "keep a steady hand on the till." What a blinking disaster.

[mikehiggins]

125. Again, thanks for your concern. I'm sure Clark will cope n/t

[Brian_Expat]

128. If he ends up being my party's candidate, he'd better.

I'd like to see his strategy for dealing with this serious problem before he asks us for the nomination.

[mikehiggins]

131. No time, no time, gotta raise some more money ;^) n/t

[Brian_Expat]

138. Hop to it! You've got $25 million to raise by 31 Dec to stay in! ;-) n/t

[FrenchieCat]

84. Pluuuuueaze....

Guess in your black and white world...you don't know diplomacy when you see it, read it, smell it or taste it.....guess it has to hit you over the head....like a giant rock.

Those people who can't see diplomacy...they end up shooting at each other....normally.....

Again, the intellect of some DUers makes me fearful of America....

Bonne Chance mon ami....tu on a besoin!

[Brian_Expat]

88. The "black and white world" is Dubya's game

Do YOU think that Rummy, Condi, Colin and Dubya are a "great team"?

I don't. I don't think ANY Democrat running against them should think of them that way, particularly when they're claiming to be running a campaign differentiated primarily around foreign policy.

[ErasureAcer]

100. clark est stupide

Je n'aime jamais quelqun qu'est un ami de Bush.

Clark blows.

[mikehiggins]

127. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

We hope you enjoy the next few months and then vote for Clark in November.

[mikehiggins]

124. I think he includes psychiatric treatment in his health plan, so thanks

for bringing it up.

And of course you are right about those folks turning out to be less than advertised. That's why they, and Ashcroft should start getting their resumes together.

The Wes Wing will have no further need for their services.

The grownups will be back in charge.

[mikehiggins]

121. Sorry you feel that way. We'll miss you during the campaign. n/t

[digitstatic]

87. Gore and Dean are Republicans

If praising Bush makes Clark a Republican then Dean supporters are in for a shock: Gore is a Republican!!

"There are no divisions where our response to the war on terrorism is concerned," said Gore, who ran unsuccessfully for president against Bush in 2000 while winning the vote in Iowa. "George W. Bush is my commander in chief."

http://tinyurl.com/2jcxv

Dean is a Republican too:

From Nov 2001 Rutland Herald--

Gov. Howard Dean on Thursday said he was generally pleased with how the Bush administration had responded to protect the country against future terrorist plots.

“The way the administration has handled the situation in Afghanistan has been very, very good,”...

http://rutlandherald.com/hdean/38357

He's pleased with Bush.... he's very, very happy with the way he's handled things!

Oh My God! Dean is a Republican! I don't trust him HE'S NOT A DEMOCRAT!

If I looked I could find Ted Kennedy praising Bush and take his comments out of context. Would that make him a Republican? No. This is such a stupid issue.

[FrenchieCat]

93. But then....

I see stupid people all over the place.......if you squint, you'll find that they are everywhere, even in places you would least expect them....

[Brian_Expat]

99. I don't think anyone disagrees with Bush's handling of Afghanistan

The real question is whether Bush's war on terror taken to IRAQ was a good idea -- and Bush was declaring his plans to invade Iraq in 2002, well before Clark made those statements about his "great team."

There's a major difference between crediting the Bush people for a single action in Afghanistan, versus referring to them as a "great team" and saying "we need them there."

[digitstatic]

117. Huh?

Read it again. You have the years mixed up. The 2002 comment was about Afganistan. The first quote was on May 11, 2001.

[Brian_Expat]

129. The 2002 comment was on the mark

And neither comment declared that we "needed Bush's foreign policy team" to "face the challenges of the future" after Bush made clear his intent to invade Iraq.

[digitstatic]

135. Clark's quote

Read the date of Clark's comments about Bush's team. It was on May 11, 2001. This was before the war.

[Crunchy Frog]

90. More pointless flamebait

You're doing an excellent job of making your candidate look bad, and making it harder for the rest of us to support him if he gets the nomination. Thank you.

[FrenchieCat]

97. I smell

desperation in the air...is all.

Bookmark this one too. They will be needed, one way or the other.

[Brian_Expat]

101. I disagree

This was all new knowledge for me (the Clark quotes) and I find them profoundly disturbing. I don't think it's flamebait to post the information and let us decide for ourselves.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Brian_Expat]

108. Votre mots: "J'accuse! J'accuse!"

Mais votre verité? "Ehrm. . . uh. . . uh. . . uh. . . " :)

[mikehiggins]

132. Oh, Brian. After that whole session about ranking candidates on

their "gay" commitment you maintain you never encountered any of this stuff before.

Zut Alors? (Thats about all the French I know) Wherever have you been?

Just look at any thread featuring skycap or the others and you'll come across these topics repeatedly. Its all out there.

See you in November.

[Brian_Expat]

139. This isn't about gay issues

But it's good to see you're learning basic campaign strategy. Unfortunately, Karl Rove can obfuscate to a superior degree to any Democrat. :(

[Crunchy Frog]

136. I see you're very new here

For people who have been here for awhile, this stuff is very old. The same stuff keeps being brought up over and over and over again. Some of us are just starting to get a little tired of it.

[bowens43]

153. It needs to be brought up for the new guys.

This is VERY important. A person does NOT make fundamental changes to his political philosophy over night. His history suggests a distinct lean to the right and nothing that he has done recently contradicts that lean (other then his words, but words are cheap).

BTW you're very new here too (unless you've gone through a name change).

[sfecap]

106. Support whom you wish.

Wes Clark's words make Howard Dean look bad.

Interesting logic.

But hey, if it works for you....go for it!

(BTW..when Clark supporters were making snide comments about Judy (Dean) Steinberg's appearance did that make Wes Clark look bad? Just curious...)

[FrenchieCat]

116. I wasn't there

so I don't know......

I defend.....and attack, only, only, only as a last resort!

[Crunchy Frog]

133. No

The behavior of some of Howard Dean's supporters on this board makes Howard Dean look bad. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear in my original post.


"(BTW..when Clark supporters were making snide comments about Judy (Dean) Steinberg's appearance did that make Wes Clark look bad? Just curious...)"

Yes, that sort of behavior from Clark supporters does make Clark look bad, which is why I would never participate in it, or condone it.

[bowens43]

152. Pointless?

Clark's support of this administration should be a major issue. If Clark gets the nomination you can bet that Roves exploitation of Clark's lack of judgment will get almost unlimited air play. Clark will be seen as either a hypocrite or a liar.

[Cheswick2.0]

141. and they will

It will be their favorite commercial all over the country and it will kill us. But the worst part is that someone who thinks that way is running for the democratica nomination. He seems to have convinced way to many people with his sound bites about key democratic issues. I even fell for it for awhile.
That is why we are lucky to have better alternatives.

[CMT]

148. despite what some say here, this is a legitimite issue

Gen. Clark has the right to change, but his views are very recent. He has also conceded a voting record which includes votes for Nixon, Reagan, and Bush I.

Now being in the military for most of his adult life means he has no record domestically to run on. So his votes and ideology do matter because it gives a clue of his thinking at these times.

I think if Howard Dean or John Kerry or any of the rest are going to be taken to task for the positions they have held or the votes they have cast then Gen. Clark has to expect the same type of thing. He is after all the only candidate running for president with a GOP past--and a relatively recent one at it.

[Moderator]

154. Locking.....

The title is misleading and this is inflammatory.


DU Moderator