Why I am angry at the Dean campaign

[no name no slogan]

One of our Kucinich supporters emailed a Dean campaign worker about the flyers that Dean sent out that said "Only Dean Opposed the War". This is the response he got back (names edited to protect the innocent/guilty):

M------,

I don't think Dennis should take umbrage. He's not running for president. Sharpton has 10 times the likelihood of being the nominee that Dennis has...sorry.

Kucinich is misrepresenting himself if he thinks he's running for
president. Senator or Governor would be terrific, but he's not going
to be anywhere close to winning anything presidential, as you well know.

Kucinich has spent $2 million for every % in the national polls. That is a waste of money - he's going to have a squeaker running for his congressional seat, and he should be concentrating on that!

Dean has spent $350,000 / % . That's the economy of having a resonant message.

B----.

========================================

I first saw this message on a Yahoo! newsgroup that I subscribe to, and had to read it a couple times to get past its arrogance.

I understand that people are excited about their campaigns, and that they feel they support the best candidate. But to get this kind of email as a response to a very serious question is not only patronizing, it is insulting.

Let's put it this way: it's attitudes like this from your campaign staffers that will make it difficult for your candidate to get supporters if he is the eventual nominee.

[phillybri]

1. Kick for Kucinich...

I'm pissed at Dean because he's been a bombthrower throughout, but is now asking the DNC to protect him from attacks. Cowardly....

[Malvina Reynolds]

2. Do I smell Trippi?

Seriously, if this was actually done, it is just inexcusable. Case closed!

[A-Schwarzenegger]

Little boxes on the hillside

and they're all made out of ticky tacky
and they all look just the same...

Welcome, Malvina, I love yer songs!

[Bombtrack]

3. he also misrepresents Clark

Clark says he wouldn't have voted for the resolution. and so does Dean.

[Melodybe]

5. If someone ctually wrote this I am sorry for you. I plan on copying your

letter and sending an e-mail to the Dean campaign. Please do not let the work of one dumbass make you hate all those involved in the Dean campaign, the majority of us are descent people that just want our country to be good for everyone.

[Brian_Expat]

11. Actually

Cannot let this claim slip. Clark originally said he would have voted for the resolution, and then after a resulting outcry, changed his position.

Not quite the same as Kucinich and Dean being opposed from the very beginning.

And the letter you received from the Dean campaign was bad, thread originator. I hope whoever sent it gets dressed down.

[KittyWampus]

54. Have You Ever Read His Books Or Testimony Before Congress?

Did you hear him speak at any fundraisers(where he criticized the Bush Strategy) or as an analyst on CNN?

Were you privy to the actual interview where Clark was SUPPOSEDLY quoted as saying he was for the IWR?

Clark says his comments were part of a far ranging conversation... we never did get any actual quotes from that first day of campaigning...

But you know, Clark cleared up the question the next day... now why doesn't HE get a Do-Over the way Dean did on his multiple Osama statements?

At any rate, Clark's on the record in many places not being in favor of what the Bush Administration was doing.

Dean wasn't until it was politically expedient to do so.

[TLM]

12. Clark also said he would have voted for it...

http://www.fair.org/press-releases/clark-antiwar.html

(CNN 1/21/03)"I probably wouldn't have made the moves that got us to this point. But just assuming that we're here at this point, then I think that the president is going to have to move ahead, despite the fact that the allies have reservations."

(CNN, 2/5/03): "The credibility of the United States is on the line, and Saddam Hussein has these weapons and so, you know, we're going to go ahead and do this and the rest of the world's got to get with us.... The U.N. has got to come in and belly up to the bar on this. But the president of the United States has put his credibility on the line, too. And so this is the time that these nations around the world, and the United Nations, are going to have to look at this evidence and decide who they line up with."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0919-01.htm

General Clark said that he would have advised members of Congress to support the authorization of war but that he thought it should have had a provision requiring President Bush to return to Congress before actually invading. Democrats sought that provision without success.

"At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question," General Clark said.

A moment later, he said: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position — on balance, I probably would have voted for it."

[Demobrat]

4. You're not going to like Dean no matter what he does

so why should he prop up your guy's campaign? The truth is Dennis doesn't matter, and there's no reason for Dean or his campaign to pretend he does.

[jmaier]

10. That's

real coalition building. :-)

Any one of the candidates is going to need support of the majority of folks currently aligned elsewhere to defeat Bush. That's a pretty good reason to be circumspect.

[Demobrat]

22. So should we pretend that

Sharpton and CMB are contenders too, or just dissemble when it comes to Kucinich?

[jmaier]

29. who said anything about

pretending or not pretending that someone is a contender? I was referring to your comments not the Dean campaign person -- though it was a bit rude. I don't see how the attitude actually help's Gov Dean's campaign. But that's just my $.02.

[RandomKoolzip]

15. That's a shitty attitude.

I'm a Dean supporter, but Kucinich has some GREAT ideas and I'd vote for him in a heartbeat if he had a chance of winning the nomination....and I think it's bullshit to say that Dennis "doesn't matter."
As a Dean supporter, I am ashamed at your remarks, and the remarks of the poster in the original thread. I wish I could see a little more empathy and unity around here. I've refused to take part in badmouthing any of the candidates ('cept Lieberman, of course!) and I wish others ould refrain from the namecalling.

Sheeesh!

[no name no slogan]

23. Thanks

Your remarks are the ones that make me feel better about the whole thing. Most of the Dean supporters I've met have been good people, even supportive. But there's just a few who seem to think that every bad move needs to be defended, even if it makes them look bad, too.

Love your photos too. D Boon is a personal hero/idol of mine and the Minutemen were one of a handful of groups that made music tolerable for me growing up in the 80s (along w/ local guys Husker Du and the Replacements, natch) :D

[Melodybe]

43. I am sorry that you were treated this way, I sent a copy of your post to

the campaign and then wrote a nice rant to go along with it. The nominee will need ALL democrats next year and if it is Dean our campaign writing shit like this is just going to make the GE that much harder. Please ignore that asshole.

[Demobrat]

25. I don't care if you're ashamed.

The truth is, in this election, Dennis isn't a factor, and insisting that the Dean campaign pretend he is won't make him one.

[Desertrose]

41. you couldn't be more wrong

It is about truth and respect...if that is missing from a campaign or candidate...are we any better than Bush?

Why can't some people just admit that all they want is their guy to win and screw anyone who gets in the way...that would be more honest than making pathetic excuses that others aren't a factor.

You don't care if some are ashamed of your candidate and his campaign? Man, that is really scary....

Peace
DR

[pscot]

35. You folks might try to show a little class.

So Dennis doesn't matter. Is that a reason to kick dirt in the faces of his supporters? What does it cost to show a little respect? Apparently Dr. Dean is now saying that his supporters may not go along if someone else gets the nomination. That blade cuts two ways. It's going to take a unified party to beat Bush. I know Dean is taking his licks, but responding in kind is counter-productive. Kicking Dennis is not only arrogant and petty, it's stupid. Especially while Clark is still viable. Acting like you're on a mission from god and everyone else better just get the fuck out of the way is not going to put Dean in the whitehouse. In fact, it's a one way ticket back to Vermont.

[last1standing]

6. It is arrogant.

And it's unacceptable. I think that worker needs to be outed and fired, but unless Dean or one of his key people wrote it, I think it's wrong to lump us all under that umbrella.

[no name no slogan]

47. I agree-- I'm not lumping all of you

I'm just saying that some of the anger we DK supporters have toward Dean and his campaign can be summed up by this pathetic response from somebody who is very prominent in a regional campaign organization.

For the record: the vast majority of Dean supporters I've encountered have been very kind, supportive and extremely nice people. However, I have encountered a couple of zealots, too, and know of people who have been physically intimidated by Dean volunteers because of their support for DK. It is these types who give his excellent campaign a bad name.

[last1standing]

60. They're in all the campaigns

I find the name calling and intimidation begin when people can't handle seeing the truth. I've been called rabid, sanctimonious, stupid, a repub, etc....all because I've had fact to back up what I say.

But back to the point, it was an arrogant letter and no one should be proud of alienating potential voters.

[BobbyJay]

7. It may be blunt, but it's absolutely true.

Alot of people need to get the hell out of the race.

[in_cog_ni_to]

13. I think not.

What? Are you Al Gore? Trying to decide who people vote for? Damn. :grr:

[janx]

19. I have a question about this kind of reasoning.

Did you support Gore before? Did you vote for him?

Did you hear the speech he made when he told the nation that he had decided not to run again?

[Jerseycoa]

8. Boorish

x(

[TLM]

9. How dare someone be honest about DK...

Listen, DK does not stand to win a single primary in any state at this point, even his home state.

While I'm glad he is in the race to bring up some issues, it is silly to act as if he should be treated as a contender.


Dean gave DK props for being against the war at the debates. Should everything Dean's campaign says or prints have to contain an asterisk for DK to explain his positions since he's been running such a piss poor campaign he can;t get his own message out?


It is not arrogance, it is honesty. DK isn't a contender in this race, and even if Dean were making a point of mentioning DK's war position in every ad, DK would still not be a contender. Don;t try to blame DK's poor showing on Dean.

[no name no slogan]

16. No, it's ARROGANCE, paired with STUPIDITY-- that's DANGEROUS

NOT ONE SINGLE VOTE has been cast in this election-- contrary to what the rightwing whore media and Zogby say.

It's one thing for a Dean supporter to say such a thing-- I've been hearing that for months now. But this is an email from somebody who is fairly high up in Dean's campaign organization.

Would this be appropriate if it came from a Gephardt campaign organizer and said that Dean actaully FAVORED IWR? No, it wouldn't.

But if you somehow feel it's in your best interest to make excuses for the assinine behavior of leaders in your campaign organization, go right ahead...

:eyes:

[Kathleen04]

18. Dean DOESN'T

have to explain DK's positions for him. All he has to do is not pretend that he's the ONLY person that opposed the war. It's really simple, just say, "I opposed the war in Iraq.." and stop speaking for others. I've seen him to it before and I'm confident that it would be simple enough to do in his brochures.

[HFishbine]

14. Why I'm Mad at the Kucinich Campaign

I'm not making excuses for the jerk whe sent that e-mail, but that was one guy's opinion, clearly not that of the "Dean campaign."

On the other hand, I've un-subscribed from the Kucinich e-mail list because that official e-mail about the flyer was recyling an old event, falsely implying that Dean was "misprepresenting" Kucinich's record, when in fact Kucinich's record had been "misrepresentED" and Dean has attoned for it. It was inflamatory and an insult to anybody who is paying attention.

I had originally subscrbed to Kucinich's e-mail list because I wanted to stay informed about his campaign, but I don't need to read misleading attacks on Dean.

[no name no slogan]

20. These weren't old flyers, though...

these were flyers that have just recently arrived in the mail boxes of voters in IA and NH.

If they were a month old, then I agree-- we should let bygones be bygones. HOWEVER, it is inexcusable for a campaign to repeat a lie that it has been corrected on not once, but REPEATEDLY.

We have one liar in the WH now. We don't need another one.

[HFishbine]

32. I appreciate your reply

And I'll eat my post if I'm incorrect, but there was a long thread last night with people claiming to have proof that the flyers were recently mailed, yet, despite promises to scan and post, nothing ever materialized.

If you can offer some evidence that those flyers were recent AND that they were sanctioned by, paid for, or in any way officially condoned by the Dean campaing, I'll apologize and write another e-mail to the Dean campaign just as I did when this issue first arose.

[no name no slogan]

37. And I appreciate yours.

I'll probably know more tonight-- I'm doing sound for a DK fundraiser and will probably talk to the statewide folk here and see what the deal is.

Peace, and keep your head down-- it's dangerous around here! :D

[HFishbine]

48. Great

I really do want to know if you find anything that can shed more light on this. If this thread has sunk by the time you find out, start a new thread or PM me.

[revcarol]

27. That e-mail was for the THIRD incident of Dean's campaign

doing the same thing and this ONLY LAST WEEK IN NEW HAMPSHIRE.

Yeah, Dean pulled the TV ads and said he was wrong...then sent out lying brochures in Iowa, and got called on it and still hasn't apologized,,,then did the same thing in NH last week.

This was no OLD incident. This was/is fresh provocation. Dean is a liar.

You are the one who hasn't been paying attention.

[HFishbine]

34. You sound convinced

What informed you that they went out last week in New Hampshire? If you can share your evidence, you'll have an ally. Word was last night that they were mailed to MI voters.

[Nadienne]

30. It was from an article dated December 27, 2003

It claimed Dean "recently" mailed misleading flyers. I had not heard of this before today. Nor have I heard of Dean's response. It's possible that I am not as in-the-know as you. But then, it's also possible that Kucinich's unappealingness to the media caused this to be ignored.

Funny, with all the media attention Dean "earns" you'd think this would be a bigger story.

[HFishbine]

36. Yes

That article said "recently" but gave no indication that they were referring to anything other than the original flyers. "Recently" does not neccessarily mean last week.

[Nadienne]

17. Wow, that is unreal...

Makes me wanna barf...

So the Dem nom might come down to 50% for Dean and 50% for someone else.

And how many Dean supporters support him in the hopes of "uniting" the democrates?

[Brian_Expat]

21. Question for Clark supporters: BE HONEST

If a Clark campaign worker wrote a letter to a Dean supporter stating that "Dean is not running for President, he is NOT ELECTABLE," would you be as outraged as you are now?

[Kathleen04]

28. That's an opinion..

"Dean is NOT ELECTABLE" is an opinion.

"Dean is the only one who opposed the war" is a misrepresentation of fact.

That's the difference in my mind.

[democratreformed]

39. In a word, YES n/t

[mikehiggins]

46. The honesty of the people who support Clark is not in question.

It is the honesty of the Dean primary campaign that is at question.

The Dean campaign already backed away from this once, and now is back at it again.

This has nothing to do with the Clark campaign or the Clark supporters. We have no dog in this fight, unless you bring us in.

[democratreformed]

58. Say it again, Mike

Okay, I will. We honestly don't have any place in this discussion unless you bring us into it.

[WiseMen]

24. Dean has effectively COLLABORATED with Repub. to diss true progressives

[TeacherCreature]

26. I don't believe this is true

I think someone sent you some doctored e-mail. Sorry, but I am smelling herring and I think you fell for it.

[no name no slogan]

33. No, it's not

If you like, you can read the original at the Yahoo! group "MN4Kucinich" (at http://groups.yahoo.com). It was posted there by a longtime Kucinich supporter who got it from a Dean organizer in southeastern Minnesota.

[HFishbine]

44. Can you clarify something?

As I've posted, I find the reply from the Dean "guy" repugnant. But, do you know what this guy's ties are to the campaign? Is he a supporter, an intern, a volunteer at an official Dean office or a paid staffer?

[no name no slogan]

53. From what I know

the person who sent the email is prominent in Dean's organization in southwestern Minnesota (which includes the cities of Rochester, Winona and Red Wing). I don't know for sure if this person is paid or volunteer, but he does represent the campaign in some capacity.

The original email was posted to the MN4Kucinich Yahoo! news group, and was sent in response to an inquiry from a longtime DK supporter in MN (in fact, one of the first to help organize the state). Hope this helps.

[HFishbine]

57. Okay

That may be all we ever know, but if you got the guy's name and e-mail address, he'd hear from a few Dean supporters.

[JustJoe]

59. Name, position, exact locale please.

Your fellow DK supporter should be eager to
publicize this ... with SPECIFICS.

[For PaisAn]

31. Obnoxious

That is one of the most arrogant, obnoxious responses I've seen. Whether Kucinich is doing well in his campaign or not is irrelevant to your legitimate question. You would think that the Dean campaign would want to put out truthful flyers. Fact is that Kucinich is the only candidate that actually voted against the attack on Iraq. It's easy for some candidates to say they wouldn't have voted for it when they weren't put in the position to put their money where their mouth is. Dean needs to know how his campaign people are representing him. It's inexcusable.

[Tom Rinaldo]

38. If true, that Dean staffer should be assigned to stuffing envelopes

However it is important to verify that we are not spreading hearsay without at the very least getting more specifics about this alleged incident. It is easy for someone somewhere to create disinformation.

Even if that were the true feeling of the staffer, he did need not go out of his/her way to virtually gloat, which is why I am suspicious.

[no name no slogan]

42. I got it from a very reliable source

I got it from somebody who was one of the first Kucinich supporters in my state, and has never provided me with bad info before. He has regularly had contact with various campaigns, and got this particular response from somebody he says is fairly well-known in Dean's organization in southeastern Minnesota.

If it were just a regular supporter, I wouldn't have cared, really, as we get this kind of stuff every day. But because this came from somebody who is (ostensibly) representing the Dean campaign, I felt it needed to be aired.

[jburton]

40. Bullshit

"I first saw this message on a Yahoo! newsgroup that I subscribe to, and had to read it a couple times to get past its arrogance. "

Print it with the name of the "staffer" and their e-mail.

Otherwise it's total bullshit rumor and hearsay.

[ErasureAcer]

49. I'm a member of the group myself...

and this was posted this afternoon.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what group it is...I'm sure looking at my profile or the topic creators profile will lead you to the yahoo group to see for yourself.

I'd say what group it is...but I'll just follow the original posters lead and won't say what group it is...because obviously he/she thought it was important to exclude...and really isn't even that relevant considering it is the truth...this person organizing the Dean campaign in a city actually said this stuff to a Kucinich member.

Of course...I don't suspect anyone to believe what I just said above...because I hate Howard Dean.

But then again...what does it really matter...

Dean supporters, yourself included...have already labeled this "bullshit".

The ignorance continues...seems Dean supporters only believe other Dean supporters and Dean himself rather than actually looking into the facts behind what is said.

Sad.

[lewiston]

51. Think your on to something.

nt

[Jim Sagle]

45. Dean supporters who flip off supporters of other candidates hurt Dean.

Badly.

That is all.

[Melinda]

50. YET ANOTHER DUPE THREAD:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=39573

[ErasureAcer]

52. funny how the Dean supporters always claim the dupe threads

I've seen a lot of dupe threads myself...usually they're in different forums and not everyone visits every forum.

I've seen stuff on LBN and GD that are dupes.

And stuff on GD: P and P&C that are dupes...

in the end...what the fuck does it matter?

Let's not lock topics and let people's hard-worked posts go unnoticed...let us have the truth come to light...

please mods...stop locking dupe threads in different forums.

[no name no slogan]

56. NO IT'S NOT

this is about the EMAIL a DK supporter received, NOT the brochures or TV commercial.

Try reading the original post first BEFORE you cry dupe, please.

[JustJoe]

55. Name, position, exact locale please.

I will write to him & Dean campaign myself.
But first ... Give me the name, his position
with the campaign, and the location where he
works. TIA.

[madfloridian]

61. If a Dean staffer did that, please give their names to us.

Either here on the forum, or in a private message.

It should be looked into, but we should not just take your friend's word about a forum, saying it was Dean staffers.

If they did that they should be outed.

[Moderator]

62. Consolidating threads...............

Please continue the discussion here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=39573



DU Moderator