Ha! I just got on C-SPAN call-in! (re: what to do about MI and FL delegates)

[Roland99]

Long-time listener, first-time caller.


I said that Hillary's recent statement that the rules of the DNC were not the rules of her campaign just shows how she doesn't care how divisive she is making things and is proof that a change is needed and that Barack is the best option for that change.

I was an Edwards supporter (still am, really) but I will vote for Barack at this point.

Oh, and re: the delegates, I said the DNC was correct in not seating them and that the states of FL and MI are just going to be left out in the cold.

[sandnsea]

1. Good for you!

I can't stand to listen to the call-in's, makes my blood boil. But I am sure glad you laid it out there. I hope some people listen.

[stellanoir]

2. Good for you.

This week a guy from Michigan called into Stephanie Miller and said there was a possibility that he could vote twice in his state because there is some talk of them doing a redo.

I really think that would be the fairest way to not have those voters disenfranchised or misrepresented.

[Roland99]

6. A later caller suggested reducing the # of delegates needed by those available in MI and FL

The voters in MI and FL weren't really represented, imo. The candidates didn't campaign (well, not officially) and most did not put their names on the ballot in MI.

All this talk from people saying they'd stay home in Nov. or vote Republican is just empty BS...much like Limbaugh and Coulter saying they'd vote Clinton over McCain.

If a voter was truly outraged, they'd have refrained from voting in the primary in support of the DNC.

[ray of light]

19. That's nuts! A person who cares doesn't REFRAIN from voting...

It's not about a protest over the DNC. And furthermore you have no proof that many peopled didn't do that, or didn't vote in the Republican primary where they at least had 7 choices, and you have no proof that the people who protested didn't vote for Kucinich, Uncommitted, or 'write in's."

Do you live in the state of Michigan or Florida?

I'm sorry but your statement is so incorrect, it's just flat out ...

[Roland99]

22. I don't think you understood the point of my post

Those people that are complaining their vote didn't count in the primary, therefore they will skip voting in Nov., makes NO SENSE. They KNEW the delegates were not going to be seated.

Their feigned indignation holds no water with me.

[ray of light]

53. It's not feigned. And actually, I voted in the primary

but I felt CHEATED. And when I hear stories of if Florida and Michigan are going to count NOW after we had been told they wouldn't count, it pisses me off. I honestly don't know what to do. Nothing against Hillary here.

But think back... At the time Kos, FDL, and some at DU were advocating Dems taking a Republican ballot and voting for Romney. I have no idea how many did so. (I voted for McCain in 2000 so it's not unheard of to take the opposing sides ballot. It's the whole open primary thing. So just as much as some Dems may have voted for Romney to mess with the Republicans, it's just as likely that Republicans picked up a Democratic ticket to mess with it.)

However, that day in the primary, I was undecided what to do. I felt it was important to go vote--regardless. I saw the Republican ticket with 7 choices and the two choices on the Dem ticket. I stood there having to make a choice--pick up the Rep ticket and have a REAL vote, OR pick up the Dem ticket and either vote DK, Clinton, write in, or uncommitted.

I knew the strategy the blogs wanted. Some wanted people to vote uncommitted. Some wanted people to vote Kucinich as a vote against the establishment. We were warned against write-ins which is the only way we could have specifically voted for Edwards or Obama!!! And of course we could pick up the Repub ballot and vote for Romney as the bigger blogs were advocating. So on primary day, I had already read someone at FDL stating, "Jane, I disagree with you. People who don't live in Michigan and aren't here suffering through the worst job loss, worst economy, bankruptcy and foreclosure, and the huge issues we have shouldn't be telling us to f*ck up our votes by playing games."

So that's how I went into the primary. AND that's how I feel about this even now. HOW DARE THE DNC f*ck with us, when our state has the highest job loss, the highest foreclosure rate, and so on...

I am even MORE angry about these DNC and MDP games they've done as the primaries have continued and I've seen how happy the DNC is to pretend we weren't disenfranchised and that our votes "MAY NOW COUNT!" HOW DARE THEY DENY US A FAIR ELECTION AND THEN SAY THEY"LL TAKE THE DELEGATES!! HOW DARE THEY!!!!!


Now I'm not advocating not voting in November, but I have to tell you that this isn't about Hillary getting the delegates. IT'S ABOUT A PARTY WHO IS HAPPY TO STEAL OUR VOTE JUST LIKE THE RNC DID WHEN THEY STOLE THE VOTES FROM GORE AND KERRY AND PRETENDED THAT THERE WASN"T ELECTION FRAUD AND SUPPRESSION!!!

So you tell me...if we MUST VOTE in November, then how does the DNC REPAIR THIER FUCK UP NOW? BECAUSE That's what they did. The DNC, the MDP, Levin, Stabenaw, Dean, ALL oF THEM participated in taking away our right to be counted!

And yet now, they want to count us?!!!

So...you tell me, what are we suppose to do to make those B********s play fair?


They either give us a real vote/caucus before the election or they stfu about taking any delegates from this state. The longer this goes on, the more pissed we get!

ALSO, I had a call to be precinct captain again, (which I've done for the last two election cycles) and I need to return that call and tell them to F-off. No real primary here--not going to get my help in electing whatever candidate they disenfranchised us from voting for.

[Roland99]

55. How do you handle Nov.? You... VOTE! Whether it ends up Clinton or Obama.

If you don't like either candidate, you can abstain or cross-over or write-in. At the least, you can vote for your local races.

And, if I was a resident of Michigan, I'd be pissed as hell at the State party for moving the primary.

Should Dean have cut delegates in half as the GOP did? I dunno, perhaps. But, it's over and done with and we have to look at what's left.

[ray of light]

64. Personally, I don't think voting is enough.

Someone told me basically "Tough...they broke the rules". Well, I say, "B.S. ALL of them broke the rules--including Dean and including the MDP. Shame on ALL of them!!"

So in terms of who do be mad at, I'm angry at DNC AND the MDP! All of them were playing chicken and making up the rules of the 'game' as they go.

Regarding the whole, "I won't vote if "x" is the candidate" or for Michigan and Florida saying, "I won't vote because our delegates didn't count" well, I would have to say that you and I both agree. Vote in November but before then and up to then and after then, make waves with the idiot powers that be whose choices made this happen.

But not voting for any reason is cutting of your nose to spite your face.

[Yael]

69. I am really hoping that both states get another chance to vote

I heard Florida flatly declined, but Michigan was considering.

Is that true?

[ray of light]

72. I have no idea. I think Michigan can't vote again but I've heard something about

caucuses.

See...we voters in michigan have no choice. No vote. No say!

[Yael]

74. Keeping my hopes up for all of you!

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

3. Excellent!

[Skidmore]

4. I heard you! And it is also a commentary on her trustworthiness.

I don't trust this woman to do any more than what will benefit her. I thinkg that those who hang on her every little word as gospel will be sadly disappointed on follow through. She should never have agreed to it if she felt that it was wrong. And her not honoring her word once given says a lot about dishonesty. You cannot trust her word.

[Tennessee Gal]

5. Do you have a link to Hillary saying that?

[Roland99]

9. Here's but one paraphrasing the campaign's statement on a conference call

Open Left Diary

[cooolandrew]

7. Thank you. Totally appreciate that call you made it will raise awareness. K&R

[Eurobabe]

8. Egg-cellent

Way to go! You can't just change the rules to suit your convenience. Thanks for speaking out.

What did the moderator say? Anything?

[Roland99]

10. Just went on to the next caller.

Seems to be quite a mix of just let the states not have their delegates seated vs. a "do-over"

[Maribelle]

11. Sad, really, that you felt required to distort her words in order to pump Obama.

She did say that the rules of the DNC were not the rules of her campaign, indicating the dichotomy, and also strongly indicated that despite the differences she would work within the confines of the DNC rules.

Do you even have a clue?

Do you know the purpose of the credentials committee that works totally within the rules of the DNC?

Do you know the DNC rules regarding the seating of delegates, pledged and un-pledged, committed and uncommitted?

Do you know what happens if the first vote at the national convention does not produce the nominee?

Too bad you went on C-span and showed off your bias causing your total detatchment from realtiy.

But thank you very much for showing off how uninformed Obama supporters choose to remain.

Kumbaya my lord!

[Roland99]

12. See post #9. And, btw, why did Hillary violate DNC rules and her own pledge and campaign in FL?

hmmm????

[Maribelle]

13. All the lies you want to post about Hillary, all the distortions you want to twist her words into..

each and every time you post that Hillary violated any rules ...

simply shows how low you are willing to stoop to pump Obama.

But I need to tell you quite honestly, I love it when Obama supporters show off as such a discredit to Obama, as much as I hate it when they, in the same breath, so flagrantly discredit the Democratic Party.

[Roland99]

14. I'm supporting Obama only to keep Hillary "DLC" Clinton OUT of the WH.

I've been a supporter of Kucinich and Edwards and now it will be Obama, by default.

I do note that your post exudes the very bitterness that is the Clinton campaign.


Thank you for solidifying my stance against her even more.



BTW, no comments on her violations of the DNC rules? No comments on her breaking her own pledge of not campaigning in FL?

Didn't think so.

[Maribelle]

15. As if your forked tongue makes any sense.

Bitterness, thy name is Obama.

[Roland99]

18. wow.

just... wow.


You are one bitter person. I pity you.

[Skidmore]

16. One reason I respect Obama so much is that he didn't allow himself

to be sucked into that neoliberal cesspool that calls itself the DLC.

[Maribelle]

20. Funny, Obama did not mind having his name listed with the DLC ...

when it was expedient for Obama.

A critical observation of this was even made in The Black Commentator:

State Senator Obama says he “didn’t object to the DLC's inclusion of my name on their list.” That is precisely the problem, from which all suspicions reasonably flow. As we wrote in our September 19, 2002 “Trojan Horse Watch”:

http://www.blackcommentator.com/12_trojan_horse_watch.html

[Skidmore]

21. I believe this was debunked a while back. Obama found out his name

had been added to the DLC member list without his permission and asked that it be removed. Nice try.

[Maribelle]

24. I already gave you the link debunking your false claim.

amen

[Skidmore]

27. Try again, grasshopper.

[Roland99]

25. I can't say "nice try" because that was debunked long ago....

http://www.swingstateproject.com/2005/03/more_controvers.html

[Maribelle]

32. I never said Obama didn't try to get his name removed from the list.

Try to keep up.

[Roland99]

34. You implied he wanted it there. Not the case.

[Maribelle]

35. I didn't imply anything. I stated it unequivocally...

he didn't mind it being there when it was expedient to him.

[UALRBSofL]

28. As you can see post #12 is not credible due to misstatements

and outright untruths and as such we can conclude is a staunch Obama supporter/insider with a bias against Hillary as well as being uninformed.

[thoughtcrime1984]

70. And you made a statement yesterday that FLA didn't know

that the delegates wouldn't be seated before you voted. Nice truth there.

[durrrty libby]

29. "why did Hillary violate DNC rules and her own pledge and campaign in FL?"

You got it backwards. Obama ads were watched in Fl. None from Clinton

Therefore Obama campaigned. Twist it all you want, but people watched Obama ads

Hillary went to Fl after the polls closed

Funny how people want to disenfranchise 1.5 million Fl votes

I guess the cult has overtaken your last 2 working brain cells

Are you even capable of still tying your shoes, zombie?

[Skidmore]

30. Hillary is dishonest and does not keep her word when she agrees to something.

If she were so concerned about disenfranchisment of voters, she should not have agreed to begin with. She is not trustworthy.

[Maribelle]

40. Hillary has not done even a single thing that contradicts what she agreed to.

Throwing out empty platitudes, a strong trait of Obama's, will not change the reality of the truth.

Then lying on top of the empty platitudes totally defies common sense.

[Roland99]

47. I guess that means she'll vote for war with Iran for real then, eh?

If she doesn't contradict herself.


Gee, I can't wait!

[Maribelle]

54. I don't know if you have a problem reading, of if you just want to spin.

Hillary, from her floor statement on October 10, 2002 to today has not contradict herself one iota on Iraq, and she has steadfastly pledged if she knew then what she knows no she would not have voted the way she did.

You shouldn't be blaming Hillary because you do not understand the reality of her words.

But you can blame Obama for his fairy tale, that he was against the war from the beginning, when all he did was make a speech on October 11, 2002 that was perhaps points stolen from Hillary's speech more than two weeks prior to his, and apparently stolen from others speeches as well, and given in all his pomp sixteen days after the IWR was finalized.

[Roland99]

57. Um, Iran. See that in the post to which you replied? I said Iran. With an N.

stifle your bitterness and blind loyalty and you might able to ... read.


ha ha ha

[Maribelle]

60. Try looking up "agreed to" in your encyclopedia

Just because you want to keep changing the subject, does not mean I need to play your silly games.

You speak lies, I speak the truth.

[Skidmore]

76. Doesn't change the fact that Hillary place footloose and fancy free

with her promises. She is dishonest.

[Skidmore]

77. Dissonance clangs.

It must be deafening inside that echo chamber of yours.

[Roland99]

31. ooo, look! Ad hominem attacks! Long the standard of GOP "zombies"

Jan 27, 5:12 PM (ET)
Clinton to Campaign in Florida
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080127/D8UEG4RG0.html

She arrived in Sarasota taking care to abide by the details of the agreement, because events in Sarasota and later in Miami were not open to the public.

With a wink at the deal, Clinton carefully staged her arrival so she left her airplane with palm trees in the background for photographer. Asked if she was happy to be in Florida, she said: "How could you not be. It is absolutely glorious. It is a perfect day here in Florida."

Hmm... Jan. 27?

Florida voted BEFORE Jan. 27?

[Maribelle]

36. You should look up Obama in Sarasota in 2007.

And let me warn you, you're in for a blunt and rude awakening.

[Roland99]

38. The pledge agreement with the DNC excluded fundraising.

But, Hillary bent those rules in her visit

Clinton apparently breaks Florida boycott in Sarasota
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080127/BREAKING/524742442/-1/RSS

and from my previous link in an earlier post.


Plus, her leaving her name on the ballot in MI (and Kucinich, too, unfortunately) when all others followed the rules.

[Maribelle]

41. In one breath you say fundraising was excluded from the rules, in the next...

you say her fundraising in Sarasota was proof Hillary broke the rules.

You're logical fallacies are getting the best of your common sense.

Obama pops in for Sarasota fundraiser, Democratic candidate's Sarasota speech was for big donors only

BIRD KEY -- The Democratic presidential candidate who has raised the most money in Southwest Florida made his first visit to Sarasota on Monday night.

But unless you were among the more than 200 guests who paid at least $1,000 each or committed to raise as much as $10,000 for his campaign, you did not get to shake Sen. Barack Obama''s hand or hear him speak

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20071106/NEWS/711060410

[Roland99]

43. Obama's was a purely private event. Clinton broke that and met briefly with the public.

*That's* the difference.

[Maribelle]

44. The only outside glimpse of Obama was when he briefly emerged from the home's garage to shake hands

Did you even bother to read the information at the link I gave you? Apparently not.

[Roland99]

46. You redacted the last part of that sentence

"standing at the foot of the arched entryway."

He didn't go out of his way to meet and greet the public like Hillary did.


Now, as to that MI ballot...

*crickets*

[Maribelle]

49. Oh please. I put what would fit on the line. I gave you the link above

And your current pomp is pure bunk.

amen

[Roland99]

51. the full quote would have fit in the Message box but it wouldn't fit your agenda.

[Maribelle]

56. Prove it. n/t

[Roland99]

58. Oh, you've done that already.

[Maribelle]

61. You said the full quote would have fit. Prove it.

Try to hold back your slime.

[Roland99]

63. In the "Message" box. not the "Subject" box.

You know...the big message box like the one this text I'm typing is in?

[Maribelle]

65. You said 'You redacted the last part of that sentence'

maybe you need to look up the word 'redacted' and quit spinning out of control


your whole message box vs. subject box crap does not for even a second prove I 'redacted' anything

[Roland99]

67. IF you cared about fairness and not pushing your distorted view...

you'd have posted the entire sentence in the Message box.

But, again, that wouldn't have gotten across the distorted viewpoint you were going for.


buh-bye.

[Roland99]

33. Re: Obama's ads...

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080123/NEWS/801230668

But Obama's campaign spokesman Bill Burton disputes the pledge was broken. He said the campaign asked CNN and MSNBC to pull Florida from the ad buy, but the networks said they could not.

Splitting hairs, to say the least.

[Maribelle]

37. Please. Obama could have purchased regional ads that could have avoided Florida.

I don't really care if you support the Obama national ads or not.

Lying that this was his only option is an insult to the intelligence of the folks that live in the 6.5 million Floridian households where Obama's ads reached, from Miami up and across the state to the Alabama border.

On thing Floridians are keenly aware of: the smell of wafting swamp gas.

[Roland99]

39. That's why Clinton only "won" Florida from the many early absentee ballots cast?

Once Obama was fully in the race and a viable candidate, support began swinging toward him.

[Maribelle]

42. In California, Hillary did even better than in Florida.

California proudly debunks the myth that support began swinging toward Obama when he was "fully in the race" and a "viable candidate"

[Roland99]

45. Oh? Over 3 million ballots in CA were via absentee ballots.

[Maribelle]

48. And? You got the absentee ballot pomp in Florida wrong, and I gave you a pass.

Do you think that your throwing out wrong and invalid remarks mandates my sitting at the keyboard to constantly attempt to impart the truth over your egregious lies?

You're failing miserably to rise above the myths pushed by Obama.

Try to get some facts straight.

amen

[Roland99]

50. say what? There was a large early voting process in both FL and CA

Those are facts.

I think your hysterical, freeper-esque mentality in support of Hillary is quite scary.

[Maribelle]

59. Your post:Clinton only "won" Florida from the many early absentee ballots

was a lie about Florida:

1) The Early Voting process does not use absentee ballots

2) Absentee ballots could have been applied for and submitted on the primary date of Jan 29


3) And the vote for Clinton on Jan 29 surpassed the vote for Obama by thousands.

[Evergreen Emerald]

62. she did not campaign in Florida--OBAMA DID

[Skidmore]

75. Typical Clintonian parse....now what does the word

"is" mean?

[Evergreen Emerald]

78. seriously? Where are you getting your information? It is wrong.

She did not campaign in FL. Obama did. He had ads running in FL.

He and Clinton did fundraising there. You are misinformed.

[Skidmore]

79. Fundraising=campaigning.

Fundraising is convincing people to support your candidacy in money and votes to follow. A Clintonian parse.

[Evergreen Emerald]

81. Well, you are wrong again: fund raising was allowed and OBAMA DID IT

Good god. You will continue to believe nonsense. I can't help you. Obama did fund raising. That was ok. Clinton did fund raising--that is campaigning.

Obama put ads in Florida--that is not campaigning (um, they were campaign ads). Clinton did not.
Clinton is fund raising.

Your blind obedience to anything Obama is scary.

[quickesst]

17. Congratulations..

But so far, all I've heard that reveals anything is the apparent mutual admiration, and comparisons to Huckabee. Holy crap, there's another one as I speak. Republicans apparently love Obama, and if they can't have Huckabee, they will vote for who they feel is most like him. Obama. Has any Obama supporter gotten a clue yet? Of course not. Silly me. Thanks.
quickesst

[w13rd0]

23. That both Huckabee and Obama are charismatic?

Yeah, fantastic logic from you there. Obama = Huckabee, oh, and Obama = Cult Leader, and Obama = "the black candidate". Please, just give it a rest. Try convincing the undecided why they should vote for your candidate. Acting like the GOP and trying to do everything you can to suppress turnout and go completely boundlessly negative isn't doing you any favors.

[thoughtcrime1984]

71. Another omniscient Hil fan?

calling Obama supporters clueless. Yep Obama = Huckabee. Bitter much?

[quickesst]

73. Not at all...

just pointing out that many repubicans have rejected McCain, and absent any chance for Huckabee to take the nomination, they are leaning toward Obama. If you listened to AJ this morning, it can't be denied. Bottom llne? A number of Republicans are rejecting their own right-wing, conservative, and propable candidate, in favor of one who, it seems, reflects their values even more. Why do Obama fans hate facts? Thanks.
quickesst

[thoughtcrime1984]

80. I don't hate facts...You don't state facts

And I don't like condescension. And you stating that Obama represents Republican values more than McCain is asinine. You are either trying to be disingenuous, which I suspect, or you are ignorant of where Obama stands on the issues. If anything, Hillary is closer to Republican ideals than Obama. There is your fact!

[shadowknows69]

26. I heard that

Good for you Roland!!

[workinclasszero]

52. Cheaters never prosper

Roland99: :yourock:

[Darkhawk32]

66. With the vitriol shown in this thread, I can only come to this conclusion.....

Hillary supporters show the same level of cognitive dissonance as Bush supporters.

Wish I could've heard it, Roland99.

[K Gardner]

68. Excellent Roland.. congrats and good job :-)