I am convinced that George Bust will NOT lose this election . . .

[OneBlueSky]

that doesn't mean I think that he'll get more legitimate votes than Kerry . . . it means that he will do whatever it takes not to be removed from office . . .

there are two scenarios that I think are possible, if not likely . . . the first, and certainly easiest, is simply to alter the vote in a few key states, just enough to win . . . as I've been saying all week, as long as they control the voting apparatus, they control the outcome . . . because as we all know, with electronic voting and no paper trail, they can basically do whatever they want with no fear of being caught . . . oh, people may yell and scream that the results don't match the polls, but that will be irrelevant . . . the only thing that will count is the numbers reported by the machines, and those are numbers they can and will manipulate to avoid losing . . .

the other scenario, which was floated today by Hannity, is the prospect of simply cancelling the election in response to some kind of terrorist strike . . . this will be harder to do, imo, and frankly won't be necessary unless some of the pending lawsuits force all of the states to produce an auditable paper trail in time for this year's election . . . the cases will probably end up in the Supreme Court, and we all know what they're capable of . . . and there probably isn't enough time to run them through all of the initial filings and various appeal courts to get a decision in time to make any difference this year . . . so I really don't think they'll have to go this route, but it's certainly available to them if they need it . . .

the thing we have to realize is the, by hook or by crook, George Bush has no intention of losing this election, and he has the tools available to make sure that doesn't happen . . . and with no way to provide hard and fast proof that the election was rigged, the American people will have no choice but to go along with the results . . . and I don't see any way to stop him . . .

[trumad]

1. Watch out for that Blue Sky...it's falling

;-)

Kerry in a landslide!

[Andy_Stephenson]

2. You dismiss BBV far too

quickly.

[trumad]

3. Actually-- I'm a student of BBV since the early days

I think that Kerry will overwhelm any BBV prob that's out there...

[ronnykmarshall]

27. Damn, I'm passing out a lot of these today!

[mikehiggins]

4. If the election is cancelled this nation will collapse

within six months. The economy will dissolve in short order and it will take most of the rest of the world with it.

It is inconceivable to me that the people running the show would tolerate such a political disaster, especially for the sake of keeping George Bush in office. There is no way any legitimate group would support such a move, least of all the traditional conservatives.

The elections will be held on time, and most likely Bush will lose. Whether there will be any sort of substantial change in the way things are run is an open question.

[AntiCoup2K4]

14. With all due respect, Mike...

...let's roll back the clock to October 2000. What if I told you then that:

1) The election would be stolen, and few would give a shit.

2) The worst terrorist attack on this nation would occur just after the so called "president" finished a month long vacation,(after a whole 6 months on the job) and the media would immediately start blaming his predecessor.

3) The unelected fraud would manage to not only squander the worldwide sympathy resulting from such an attack, but paradoxically turn nearly every nation on earth against us, except for the Likud party of Israel and the Poodle PM of the UK.

4) 90% of both houses of Congress would vote in favor of an act that attacked civil liberties like nothing else in this nation's history.

5) American citizens would be imprisoned indefinitely without being charged with a crime, or allowed to contact lawyers or family members.

6) The unelected "president" would illegally invade a sovereign nation based on a list of complete lies, and far too many Democrats would vote to enable him to do so.

And as we all know that's not even the full list.....

Would you have found any of those things credible 4 years ago, or expected the American people - even legitimate conservatives - to tolerate any of them, let alone all of them?

But tolerate them they did. And many were even brainwashed into thinking all of these things were right for America. After all we have seen in the last 3 1/2 years, do you really think a "suspended" election (especially if it's caused by a staged terror event) is going to be the one thing they won't allow to happen?

Sorry, I just don't have that much faith in a population that has proven itself overwhelmingly passive to the point of uselessness in recent years. I lived through Nixon, Reagan and Old Man Bush knowing they were bad for the country but never truly afraid for America's very existence as I have been recently :scared:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. I'm With You....

If Bush declared martial law America would be kicked out of NATO, the equities markets would drop by seventy five percent, foreign capital which undrerwrites our debt and standard of living would flee, OPEC would switch to EUROS instead of dollars for safety, the most reactionary elements of the left and right would use the resultant chaos to settle old scores, the best and brightest would leave the nation....


There would be nothing left to save...


The elites in America don't like Chimpy that much....

[AngryYoungMan]

5. Is that a realistic scenario?

I'm talking about the latter idea of suspending the election. Needless to say you're not the first person (or the first DU poster) to raise this. The more I think about it, the more confused I am about it.

Basically what you're describing is a scenario like the post-9/11 world. In other words, everyone's so rattled, so frightened, so confused that they can slip something past us that's blatantly un-American etc.

I clearly remember after 9/11 when even the most pacifistic people I knew were bloodthirsty and demanding an invasion of wherever the terrorists were, and wanted bin Laden hanged at Ground Zero etc. Only a few voices dissented (like Susan Sontag in the New Yorker) and were silenced quickly. Likewise the "Freedom Fries" period when it wasn't safe to put an anti-war sticker in your window.

But I think times have changed, and I think that Bush's credibility has diminished drastically. Heartland Americans are tired of the casualties in Iraq, see no evidence of anything changing as a result of Hussein's capture, and have been played like the villagers in "the boy who cried wolf" (yellow alerts, etc. but no warning on Spanish Bombs) that I can't imagine them clinging to Bush in fear if there's another attack.

Furthermore the elections and the transfer of power are not the same thing. A strike in November three days before the elections would still keep Bush in power through January. I can hear a lot of people saying "those $%)(#$ terrorists won't stop us from exercising our freedoms that they 'hate' so much, like the freedom to vote." I can see Kerry saying, "They're SCARED of my taking over; they WANT Bush in power," 'cause by then the whole Saudi/bin Laden/Bush/Plamegate mess will be further in the open (God willing).

Anyway it seems an unlikely scenario. A terrorist strike right before INAUGURATION DAY is a slightly different scenario, but I just can't see the claim that "we can't vote because they just blew something up" getting very far. It's too weird and Soviet-like, and people won't accept it.

I hope I'm right...

My $0.02

[AntiCoup2K4]

15. It's called "Red Alert"

Technically, they wouldn't even need an actual terror attack, only a serious enough threat of one to invoke the "red alert" which essentially means everyone's under house arrest. And if you can't leave your house, you can't get to the voting booth. Those who vote by absentee ballots would have better luck - provided the mail was still being delivered and somebody was at the county courthouse to count them. But the majority who have to drive to their school, church, fire station or whatever - would be disenfranchised by order of der Fuhrer.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SheilaT]

7. It's important to realize that those currently in power

came to power in a coup, and will not readily leave the stage.

There are many ways to steal the election. I have no trouble thinking of several, and I'm hardly a professional at this. These guys are.

Two things of recent note. In Florida, the voters in Bay County apparently went 2-1 for Dick Gephardt over John Kerry. http://www.news4jax.com/politics/2913617/detail.html
At least in this case there were paper ballots to recheck the results.

We can all easily imagine scenarios that result in Bush suddenly leaping upward in popularity (at least according to the polls) -- Osama is captured a couple of days before the election. A terrorist strike is averted. Or one actually occurs, and W is seen as eminently "presidential" (whatever THAT means) and how could anyone possibly think of voting against him?

But something even more insidious and dangerous is beginning to pop up. Jim Hoagland in the Washington Post today (March 16)sets the stage for a willing suspension of the election:
A national consensus on the importance of holding elections as scheduled -- even in the face of an event such as Sept. 11, 2001 -- should be formed now. The rule of law rather than the circumstantial judgment of leaders provides the essential stability of the American system.

snip

The two major parties need to come together to establish a bipartisan framework for minimizing the force of terrorist incidents aimed at influencing elections. A joint declaration on national unity in the face of terrorism by the party chairmen is one way of addressing that need.

Read the entire article at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61723-2004Mar15.html and then see if you don't agree the groundwork is being laid to convince us that an election isn't necessary come November.

(edited to add the last few paragraphs because I hit Post too soon)

[PaDUer]

9. If they suspend the elections...

how many people are going to DC..and not to march through the streets.

[SheilaT]

11. If they suspend elections, and start really enforcing

the Patriot Act, and require everyone going to DC to have a good reason (and going to participate in a protest will definitely not be considered a good reason to go there). Not to mention, the Federal City itself could easily be put under lock-down. It's really quite easy to control access in and out of that place.

I only hope that on November 3rd I'll be looking back on all these doom and gloom posts, and we'll all instead be giddy with delight that Bush is out of power finally.

On the other hand, it's going to feel like a long time from November 2, 2004 to January 20, 2005. A lot could happen.

[PaDUer]

12. DC is like Fort Knox...

things have changed since we were there protesting..For the amount of money these "changes" are costing, I'd say that * isn't planning on leaving for a long time..And, don't forget about his Texas White House or whatever he named it...

[Paradise]

21. this paragraph in your post needs repeating:

"The two major parties need to come together to establish a bipartisan framework for minimizing the force of terrorist incidents aimed at influencing elections. A joint declaration on national unity in the face of terrorism by the party chairmen is one way of addressing that need."

it may very well be our only, and slim hope.

[SheilaT]

26. You need to read the entire piece.

In context it's clearly intended to browbeat people into going along with whatever the Republicans want us to do. A joint declaration on national unity would simply be the first step in deciding that holding an election is silly and unnecessary.

Remember, Guiliani seriously proposed that he remain as mayor of NYC after 9/11, that a new election wasn't needed, not with him in charge.

And also keep in mind that as far as the Republicans are concerned, bi-partisanship means the Democrats roll over, play dead, and let the R's do anything and everything they want.

[Paradise]

31. must admit i didn't,

so i'll take your advice, and read the entire piece. just can't keep track of all the user names and passwords. driving me batty. got any suggestions? thanks for the wake up call. :hi:

[shoopnyc123]

8. Naw, after Spain...

...a terror attack is the LAST thing they want; not because it would favor them, it's the unknown response that would hold them back; and, I think for the terrorists also.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

10. Suspension of elections, an event without historical precendent in

the U.S., even if only for a few days, could have cataclysmic consequences difficult to predict. (Beyond the obvious political disaster of the evaporation of the republic.) Stock market crash leading to depression. Massive joblessness way beyond what we see now. Etc.

[bigtree]

13. Cynicism

You know, there are quite a few desperate folks on our side too. Don't underestimate the strong desire to unseat Bush, even among republicans. Don't underestimate the Democratic party. Two terms were won off of the incumbent BushI.

[SheilaT]

16. I will say that the one thing that gives me hope

that Bush will lose power is the fact that so far forums like this exist unmolested. Amy Goodman is still on the air. Michael Moore and Greg Palast's books continue to be published and freely distributed in this country.

For all the lack of coverage of various things, for all the mainstream media worshiping of Bush and his minions, a real crackdown simply has not occurred. I don't know if it's because they're afraid to be so thoroughly repressive, or if they realize people wouldn't really hold still for it. Except... except people put up with remarkable invasion of personal privacy just to take a commercial flight.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. True enough

[Paradise]

18. i, too, am convinced ! just look at the lengths they went to in 2000,

when they weren't in total, complete control as they now are (ALL branches including the press.) just remember what they've been willing to perpetrate over these 3 1/2 years to achieve their ends, comprehensively, across the nation, and the world. they have a master plan, and they will stoop to conquer. this is not about OUR positive or negative attitudes, this is about THEIR unabashed fraud-in-power. these are my opinions, where, and for as long as, i can express them. thanks for the forum.

[ithacan]

20. fascists do not give up power willingly...

that is true. It's gonna be a fight. Let's hope they remain overconfident and as out of touch with reality as they were on Iraq.

[rasputin1952]

22. Over the course of our history...

we have been under sever pressure in the past, and have always come through, although often with less than exemplary performance.

We were born of Revolution, only 1/3 of the then population of the colonies were for separation from the English crown. 1/3 were Loyalists and 1/3 would go either way. It was more luck and timing than anything else that broke us away from English rule.

As a fledgling nation, John Adams tried to impose the Alien and Sedition Act, fortunately, it was overturned.

We scrambled and crawled along until 1860. With the firing of shots on Ft Sumter, we faced the gravest crisis this nation had ever know, and came out of it with a lost citizenry and a foundering treasury. Never in this nations history were we in such pa precarious position as we were during the CW years and the immediate aftermath. When Lincoln was assassinated, the South had nothing to look for except more oppression. It was not until 1920 when the South was back up to where it was in population and economic status since 1860. If we, as a nation, could survive that, I believe we can survive anything. We came out of that conflict forged as a single nation; not city states like Europe.

The wars of American Colonialism scarred the population deeply. The Great war of 1914-18, further melded the American psyche into what we have become today. We were threatened by Imperial Germany, and we took them to task.

WWII, the most massive destruction of human life this world has ever seen, was thrust upon us on Dec 7, 1941. It can be argued that our beef was with Japan not Germany. But with what we know now, it was better we went in on both fronts and put an end to the scourges of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

Korea was to show the communists we would not sit idly by while the worlds people were swallowed up. The nation was tired of war, and felt it was up to the new UN to keep wars from flaring up.

Vietnam created the first mass protest against a war many consider unjust. We were, and still are a divided nation over Vietnam. The scars run deep for many of us; those that saw combat in foreign fields and those that fought at home to bring our troops home.

My point, through all of this is; WE the American People have survived everything that has been thrown at us. WE the People, have never succumbed to either foreign enemies or domestic. We fought the Alien and Sedition Act. We fought the suspension or Habeas Corpus. We fought to end slavery. We are fighting to end poverty. We will fight to keep our nation free.

The best way we can fight is to show solidarity and get bush out of office. They will not suspend elections, the nation would rise up, Dem, Rep, Ind, all of the various factions we have, and WE the People would evict bush from the WH. Left, Center and Right would come together instantaneously and there would be no force that could stop us. The military would not follow the orders of the admin, the police would not follow the orders of the admin, and we would go to the WH and toss this admin out into the street. They know this, and although they are deluded, they would not sacrifice themselves for their goals of global domination. They will only sacrifice others. They are cowards, always have been an always will be.

In the end, bush will be out in Jan '05, and we will have to work together to put OUR country back together.

So, come together, iron out the difference in our views, and lets get bush out of office.

O8)

[Layman]

23. Noble Post Rasputin 1952

Your post reminds me of the quote, "People who predict the future, even if they're right, are liars. Having said that I can't help myself. "Will they or won't they? Will they or won't they? Will they or won't they? Will they or... ."

[Snivi Yllom]

24. voting machines are scary..potential to cancel elections, maybe, likely?

No.

[corporatewhore]

25. Help send international observers to the us in Nov

contact Ted lewis at global exchange (415-575-5535) also sign up to be an election judge or clerk to makesure they run smoothly

[Fleshdancer]

28. the terrorist angle is pretty scary.

But as far as BBV goes, if we know crooks are involved and that the repubs will do whatever it takes to win but yet we know the systems are hackable...well, why not just bring down the entire BBV system by casting all the votes as invalid?

Talk about shaking up the system.

Just a little evil fantasy I have sometimes.

[jansu]

29. It must be something in the air,

because many of us are having the same fantasy! I don't know if I would call it evil....when you do something to stop another evil, is it evil? Ah, a morality question. I will ponder this!

[AlinPA]

30. I'm worried now; I believe Rove will try a "terrorist" event in the US

to get 'Muricans to support the commander in chief". All Bush* has to run on is the "war on terrorism" and 9/11.

[alcuno]

32. Start following the right track/wrong track numbers.

Out this week - 60% of Americans believe that the US is on the WRONG track. People who think the country is on the wrong track do not vote for you. Follow those numbers closely as they have historically been the best indicator of voter sentiment.