The circular firing squad forms from the left...

[Padraig18]

It's starting, as is obvious to anyone with any sense of detachment whatsoever--- the tried-and-true Democratic Party tendency to form circular firing squads! We have people actually wanting Kerry to change his position on his IWR vote, etc. . I suppose that that's to facilitate Sen. Kerry's entry into the maw of the Rovian 'flip-flop' meat grinder, eh?

Do none of you people have the practical political sense that God gave a GOOSE? Jumpin' Jeebus on a pogo stick!

:wtf:

[jean]

1. someone said, earlier today - Kerry's playing chess, some of us are

playing checkers, as far as strategy issues are concerned.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

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[Warpy]

37. Yeah, pretty much, but he needs a major speech

in a format that the media would be unable to ignore, in which he states his vote was to force the inspectors into Iraq and keep them there, not give Idiot carte blanche to invade unilaterally.

If he did that, I'm sure a lot of complainers on the left (and I've been one of them from time to time) would get a grip and understand that vote in context.

[Kahuna]

46. Riiiight. It's as simple as that. The vote accomplished the goal

of getting the inspectors in. There were doing their job. Dumbass kicked them out, "prematurely." I use "prematurely" as a qualifier so that Kerry wouldn't feel that he is flip flopping.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

49. Too bad the inspectors were going in BEFORE the IWR vote..

Otherwise that might have been a clever ploy...

[Mike L]

56. Kerry's statement--- Reality 101

Great Reply by Kerry. It means Bush won't get to put out a commercial saying,

"Would John Kerry have removed Saddam Hussein from power to prevent him from developing weapons of mass destruction? (cut to film clip of one word in Kerry's answer: "No") No he wouldn't. But President Bush would, and he did. President Bush believes in doing everything possible to protect America. The world is a safer place without Saddam Hussein. President Bush-- a strong leader in the War On Terror."

Man, Karl Rove must be pissed bigtime. He would have run that commercial the entire month of October. The 'uninformed' 5%, middle-of-the road undecideds who will decide this election would have swallowed it whole. If they actually knew anything about world and national events, do you think they would be "undecided" at this point? Think about it. The most politically ignorant voters are the ones who elect the President in this country. That is the group that both sides must play to at this point.

[Julien Sorel]

2. Sigh. If only _____ had been the candidate, we wouldn't have this problem

We'd have a fighting candidate who couldn't be smeared, who takes the perfect stance on every issue, who says exactly the right thing at the right time, and who is able to be all things to all people. Yes, _____ should have been the choice of the party. Aren't you sorry you didn't vote for ______ now?

[Padraig18]

6. The constant sub-text of those posts.

But no one has the outright gall to come out and say it...

:shrug:

[JohnKleeb]

10. the more I read about Kerry the more I like him

Ive even considered hypothetically supporting Kerry. I really still like Kucinich a lot, dont get me wrong but I really like Kerry the more I read about him.

[Padraig18]

14. Same here.

I still have issues with him, but I'd have issues with anyone we nominated; when all's said and done, he's a FINE candidate who will be several orders of magnitude better as POTUS than Bush*.

[JohnKleeb]

17. right on

I really think if people wanna understand him, best to read about him, next book I am gonna buy is the Boston Globe bio of him, I consider myself happy with him as the nominee, its not like hes a blue dog democrat, that would be bad.

[Xipe Totec]

36. I Supported ________ Before the Primaries

I kinda liked ________ but he didn't make it. By the time the primaries came to my state it was all over.

I vowed from the beginning to support the Democratic candidate come November, no matter who, and that candidate is John Kerry.

They can call me an ABBer, if they like, but I'm an ABBer for Kerry.

[Kahuna]

47. Not me. As you know, I was a fervent Clark supporter. But now

I'm glad that Kerry is the nominee because he is a skilled politician. However, it's getting to be just about time for Kerry to stop laying back and letting the swiftboat liars, bush and Cheney to attack him mercilessly. I do understand that timing is everything. I'm pretty sure that it's just about time to hit those suckers where it hurts.

[Old and In the Way]

12. I like Dean and Kucinich, but-

if they can smear a real military vet and question his medals and actions in Viet Nam, can you imagine how they'd be grinding Dean or Kucinich? Kerry's be pretty well vetted since he came onto the Republican radar scope in the 70s. Who knows where we'd be with any other candidate running against the corporate media?

[JohnKleeb]

19. Bunter was a Clark supporter if I recall

Yes, I do think they would do that though. Sad to say. Nothing against the two guys.

[blondeatlast]

4. Excellent post, Padraig, and so true.

Too bad there is no befuddled head shaking icon; I could've used it a dozen times today...

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[RoBear]

5. 'Bout time somebody said something.

I love it when the Repugs start eating their own, but yesterday I saw a thread with such an outpouring of hate for McKinney that I thought I'd strayed into Freeper-ville. FOR GOD'S SAKE, GET A SENSE OF PERSPECTIVE! Remember where the REAL threat is.

[Padraig18]

9. Some folks need to realize two things:

1.) The primaries are over, and your candidate lost!

2.) The whole purpose of this exercise we call a general election is to oust Bush, not make Kerry seem like a blithering fool!

[RoeBear]

32. Hey pardner...

...there's only room for one RoeBear in these parts!

[JohnKleeb]

8. Personally it irriates me

I can tolerate criticism but I cant stand that people act like he's just like Bush, may not say it, but inferances etc. I also think some of the reasons why people dont like Kerry are stupid, Ive seen being distantly related to the Bushes as a reason, as much as I like people with humble backgrounds, I think this is a non-issue, or that he said reporting for duty in his acceptance speech. This is an important election, the balance in the supreme court will become either the most liberal court since the Warren Court or the most conservative one since Pre FDR.

[Padraig18]

11. Give the man a gold star!

You nailed it, John!

:thumbsup:

[JohnKleeb]

15. I just wish people would realize things

like on the issues that make one a democrat and one a republican, Kerry is very different from Bush. Lets compare, shall we?

Bush: an amendment that prohibits GLBT from marrying or even having equal benefits.
Kerry: Supported the Boxer amendment which enabled GLBT to stay in the military, voted against DOMA, one of the first to introduce pro gay rights legislation, and an opponent of Bush's bill and a supporter of civil unions.

Bush: Cut from VA
Kerry: Increase Veterans Benefits and have a Military Family Bill of Rights.

Bush: ban partial birth abortion
Kerry: appoint only judges who will support Roe V Wade

I can think of many others.

[blondeatlast]

13. Let's pile on the nominee

AFTER the election, please.

And believe me, I will.

[Padraig18]

16. Yep!

I have this odd notion about not 'kneecapping' my own party's nominee prior to the election. After the election is when we get down to the nitty-gritty. My 'gun' is on 'safety', until Nov. 3rd.

[luaneryder]

18. I thought this was settled a couple of days ago

Kerry's THE candidate. No ifs, ands or buts. The convention is over, Kerry's the Democratic contender and MUST win!

[Padraig18]

21. Some folks missed the memo.

Their posts show little, if any, awareness of the fact.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

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[JohnKleeb]

22. Zell Miller, "I endorse George W Bush in his reelection bid"

thats pretty bad.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[JohnKleeb]

29. well ok Dem in name only

Sorry AP.

[blondeatlast]

27. Zell don't sit at my cafeteria table, though. nt

[JohnKleeb]

30. hes like a unpopular kid trying to hang out with the popular kids

not saying we're not cool but thast the best analogy I could think of.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

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[AP]

26. That's anonymity for you. It makes it easy to pretend your a dem

when you aren't, which is something that's much harder to do in the real world.

[JohnKleeb]

28. oh he meant other dems

hmm you got a point. Of course the ironic thing is four short years of ago the now considered aloof Kerry was once considered charismatic, the one well known as quite liberal Kerry now has a moderate tag. Gotta love the media.

[blondeatlast]

31. John, you are so wise behind your ears--remember me when

you take the nomination in 2020, wouldya?

After all, I was gonna be your mom...

:evilgrin:

Edit: too good a typo to fix, but I meant YEARS

[JohnKleeb]

33. at 33?

Yes, the soap opera, hilarious, what role did I get for that anyhow. I wont run for president, I got the worst temper, I curse, etc, wouldnt be a good presidential candiate, would love to speechwrite or research, I did a lot of research to credit Kerry in the primaries.

[blondeatlast]

24. THANK GOD ALMIGHTY! nt

[Philostopher]

34. Y'know, as little as I like the whole Iraq invasion,

I've had to face the fact that Democratic legislators already had effectively lost when the IWR was put to a vote. They couldn't really win -- there was always the possibility that things would go well and Rumsfeld was right. Clearly he wasn't, but hindsight is perfect -- I can't even say I knew it would be this big a clusterf*ck at the time, though I thought and still do think invading a sovereign nation that presents no clear danger to national security is wrong.

If Rumsfeld had been right, and they'd voted against the resolution, this administration would have had a right field day with it. Look at how they're playing Kerry's criticism of the administration in how it prosecuted the invasion when the whole thing's obviously a debacle -- what do you think it would have looked like if it hadn't been, for those who'd voted against it?

Those legislators may even have known Bush* would abuse the powers they were giving him, but there was a possibility even that blind pig had dug up an acorn that would secure another four years in office without putting himself at any real risk, and made them look like cowards to boot. There was no right answer.

Anybody care to take a Alka-Seltzer and imagine what the campaign would sound like right now if Iraqis had strewn the invading troops' path with rose petals, like Rumsfeld made it sound? If it actually had been a cakewalk? That was the very real possibility our representatives were facing, Kerry and Edwards included. They were dealt from a stacked deck, and now they have to play with the cards they were given.

[Padraig18]

35. Exactly.

We can't ask the dealer for 'new cards'; we have to play the ones we have as best we can. It's really that simple.

[opihimoimoi]

39. We Gatta keep the spears pointed outward, not risk friendly fire.

o------------------------------||}}}>>

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

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[olddem43]

51. As LBJ would put it "Everyone inside the tent should be

pissing out."

[Padraig18]

52. LOL!

I love that one!

:D

[blondeatlast]

38. Excellent analysis--you should expand this for the homepage. nt

[Devils Advocate NZ]

50. This is why sticking to your principles is so important...

I've had to face the fact that Democratic legislators already had effectively lost when the IWR was put to a vote. They couldn't really win -- there was always the possibility that things would go well and Rumsfeld was right. Clearly he wasn't, but hindsight is perfect -- I can't even say I knew it would be this big a clusterf*ck at the time, though I thought and still do think invading a sovereign nation that presents no clear danger to national security is wrong.

I also believed that invading a sovereign nation was wrong - in fact it was a war crime - I didn't believe a WORD out of the US governments mouths, so I STUCK TO MY PRINCIPLES and I was right.

Can you imagine if Kerry had done the same thing?

If Rumsfeld had been right, and they'd voted against the resolution, this administration would have had a right field day with it. Look at how they're playing Kerry's criticism of the administration in how it prosecuted the invasion when the whole thing's obviously a debacle -- what do you think it would have looked like if it hadn't been, for those who'd voted against it?

The funny thing is they are criticising Kerry for supporting the war then criticising it. If he had never supported the war then they would have been screwed.

As for if things would have been different, can I ask you, are you INSANE? Do you truly believe that it was even REMOTELY possible that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, but let the US bomb the shit out of them for OVER A DECADE without using them?

Only a lunatic would truly believe that.

Those legislators may even have known Bush* would abuse the powers they were giving him, but there was a possibility even that blind pig had dug up an acorn that would secure another four years in office without putting himself at any real risk, and made them look like cowards to boot. There was no right answer.

Of COURSE there was a RIGHT bloody answer! I had it, many on DU had it, and even a few in power had it (Kucinich is one exanple). The fact is that any reasonable person could see that Iraq was a) NOT a threat to the US or its neighbours and b) was in no worse a position than it would be left in after an invasion.

Anybody care to take a Alka-Seltzer and imagine what the campaign would sound like right now if Iraqis had strewn the invading troops' path with rose petals, like Rumsfeld made it sound? If it actually had been a cakewalk? That was the very real possibility our representatives were facing, Kerry and Edwards included. They were dealt from a stacked deck, and now they have to play with the cards they were given.

Once again only the insane would truly believe that. All you have to do is know how the US military operates to know that they would create FAR MORE ENEMIES in Iraq than friends. The US military is "risk adverse" and thus is willing to kill civillians to protect their own soldiers lives.

THAT PISSES PEOPLE OFF!

It was 100% clear to me and many other that if the US military was set loose in Iraq that things would be FAR WORSE when they were done.

I and many others were saying this LONG BEFORE the war, and we were right. In fact there was never any doubt. Except in the minds of politicians who were more worried about re-election than doing what was right.

[Padraig18]

41. Kick

:dem:

[volosong]

42. We're Not Going to Win Unless

1. We capture the centrist vote

2. We get a good chunk, if not a majority of the "undecided" vote

3. All the Democratic "regulars" fall into line (excl. the Southern Dems who are really Repubs). This means labor and the blue collars

4. All the votes get counted honestly.

5. We don't self destruct by circular firing squad or hari-keri

we cannot be overly optimistic here

[tnlefty]

48. Excuse me - I'm a southern democrat and a liberal one at that and I don't

particularly care for being equated with a repub. I'm trying hard to turn TN back to blue on the electoral map even though Kerry wasn't my first choice, but whatever disagreements I might have with him or Edwards I don't air them when I'm out in public.

[quaoar]

53. Amen

I'm in Alabama and just a bit sick of the condescending crap I hear about how pointless it is to waste any time or money on the South.

[greatauntoftriplets]

54. A good friend from the South recommended the book linked below to me...

And I read it with great relish. I live in Chicago.

Please don't take offense at the book's title -- it is hyperbolic and meant to be in your face. The author makes excellent sense that refutes the "condescending crap" you are talking about.

Southerners should not be marginalized. As what these days is described as a "fringe lefty", I share your pain.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684838648/qid=1092448291/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-0472394-5844126?v=glance&s=books

[goobergunch]

43. I'd agree, give Kerry a pass through the election

But I make no promises regarding 3 November 2004 and forward.

Oh, and as for wanting Kerry to change his IWR vote - it's about supporting what is right, not what is popular.

[Kahuna]

44. I don't want him to change it. I could care less what Kerry says to

win the election. I just think his canned response about the IWR sounds vague, unresponsive and wishy-washy. I agree with Jon Stewarts analysis of dumbya's challenge and the way Kerry responded. With that response, he must want to lose.

I only want one thing as you know, my friend. That's for Kerry to win in November. I think that's all most of us want. :D :hi:

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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[Ignoramus]

55. umm, dissent is actually healthy. no one?

Maybe you are talking about something specific that I'm missing, but I don't interpret self-criticism as suicidal in the slightest. How hostile to criticism a group is, is a measure of how diseased it is. Frankly, this place looks more like freerepublic everyday, it seems to me.

A house of cards is built by people always avoiding saying anything critical about their own base.

When the Kerry people say something that you think is dumb, the worst possible response is to pass around feeble excuses for people to mouth. The next worse thing is to stay silent.

I think the main problem I have with people here is that I am not "a democrat", even though I will vote for a "democratic" party candidate. I would never be "a" anything, in the sense that I wouldn't want to change my politics to fit the agenda of some political organization. My politics will be independent of any group think, as far as I am able.

I am concerned with justice and freedom, not getting some organization into power, even if that specific task might be on the agenda.

So, I endorse Kerry as far as he fits into dealing with those issues, and only that far.

What will you do if Kerry is elected and promotes a policy that you feel is immediately disastrous? Are you loyal to humanity, or are you just another gang member?

I always said that republicans don't have to worry about what they think about things, because politics is just a matter of deciding who's authority to obey. I think it is not strictly a republican tendency.