Supporting Obama and holding him to account when he’s wrong

[20score]

are not mutually exclusive. In fact, when our leaders fail us, as they inevitably will, it is the job of the citizenry to point out what they have done wrong. With no pressure from progressives, then the only people being heard from will be the groups that don’t have the best interests of the country at heart. So, Obama should be hearing from us that he was wrong on FISA, and it doesn’t mean we all of a sudden like McCain.

Another under the radar causality of this vote is the division it has caused. Every time a leader does something wrong, there is a separation between those calling for unity and those pointing out what they see as an immoral or harmful act. The Iraq War is the most obvious example of this fact, but the FISA vote has illustrated the same tendency, albeit on a smaller scale.

So, it is up to us, in my opinion, to support the candidates we think will best represent us, but at the same time, do not let up on them when they have failed at keeping their promises, or failed us.

[Saturday]

1. That's not exceptable talk here. If you do not

worship him you'll be called names. Prepare for cover.

[Bluerthanblue]

5. constructive criticism?

oh yeah.

:sarcasm:

[anonymous171]

38. Yeah. But calling Michelle Obama an "elitist" is not constructive criticism.

[LowerManhattanite]

58. Ju-nior!

“Eeee-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-nnnh!”

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NattPang]

2. 21 days and counting, the job is done.

At some point,
the constant critics
become the ones that
need criticizing.

Enough is enough.
The vote has happened.

McCain will not restore
your rights which have been
non existent since 2001.

[Saturday]

4. 21 days doesn't matter. When you're wrong you're wrong

and need to be held accountable even if it's day 22.

[World Citizen]

10. are you saying...

you're wrong?

[CreekDog]

74. how do you hold him accountable?

[JoFerret]

81. What on earth are you on about?

Can you either try to explain.
Or hire an interpreter.
Thank you.

[Life Long Dem]

3. During a campaign

to attack the one your supporting is not supporting him. Sore losers would take a chance like that during a campaign.

[John Q. Citizen]

9. During a campaign it is even more important to hold your candidate accountable.

I don't know what your "sore loser" comment refers to.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[John Q. Citizen]

19. Better get used to it. I've been posting on this long before you showed up.

I will be posting on how my government better not fuck with my rights right on through the next three administrations.

If you had been here earlier, you would have known that.

If you don't like it, just put me on ignore. I'll understand

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[John Q. Citizen]

23. McCain was never my candidate. I think he's kind of pathetic. I have high hopes for Obama

though.

I think he might be trainable to respond to the grassroots.

I have to admit though, after he chose the telecoms and bush over the people on FISA, I'm not as optimistic as I was.

[elocs]

6. So nothing is off limits, even if it were to hurt his chances to win the election?

Let me pose it this way, if you actually believed some "constructive criticism" would hurt Obama would you go ahead and post it anyways? Because if Obama is not elected, only one other person will become president--John McCain. So I am not saying there should be no criticism of Obama, but I do think it is not unreasonable to ask yourself if your constructive criticism is more to force Obama onto your straight and narrow, or simply to make you feel better yourself.

[Saturday]

12. Isn't that how Republicans think? And isn't

that how Bush got elected? Never question anything. It's not the right time to question.

[elocs]

18. Please show me in my post where I said, "Never question anything"?

Is it the right time to ask any and every question? Does it matter at all if your "question" would hurt Obama's election chances and help to elect McCain, or are you too noble to even ask that of yourself. If McCain is elected, good luck with having somebody who would even be bothered to listen to your questions. So, no Obama, nobody cares about your questions.

Oh, and throwing up the "isn't that how Republicans think" is a lazy and strawman argument. Republicans use those kind of trite statements like, "Why do you hate America?"

[Bobbie Jo]

31. I should have read yours first before I jumped in...

You were all over it before I even got here. :hi:

[Bobbie Jo]

29. Let me get this straight...

You're comparing how * got elected to ......nevermind.

How about you torch that pitiful strawman, and make your point. You're sounding more like a republican than anybody here. This is exactly the type of response they spew when they don't have anything substantive to add to the discussion. Wow.

BTW...WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA, and WHY DO YOU WANT US TO LOSE THIS WAR?

one more thing..WHY DO YOU WANT MCCAIN TO WIN??

Get the picture?


PS. holding up * as a comparsion to Obama as if they are similar in any way, shape, or form, is beyond ridiculous. Situational or otherwise.

[MonkeyFunk]

33. Do you honestly think anything someone posts on DU

will make or break his chances?

That's just absurd.

[Bluebear]

35. How will a DU posting in a specialty forum like GDP "hurt his chances"?

[last_texas_dem]

7. K and R

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Ken Burch]

8. K&R

The man doesn't need blind support, and from what I've seen of him, he doesn't DEMAND it. Which, to my mind, is to his great credit.

The strongest solidarity is the solidarity of truth-to back someone so deeply that you'll have the strength to tell that candidate when you think she or he is wrong or need to change.

Or, as Carl Schurz, known as the greatest American of German descent during his 19th century lifetime put it:

"When right, to be kept right, and, if wrong, to be set right". Schurz said this of the whole country(it was his response to Stephen Decatur's brainless "my country right or wrong" adage)but it can and must be applied equally to those who seek our support to lead the country.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NattPang]

17. Should I do this 21 times?

[pinto]

22. No.

Thanks.

[JohnnyLib2]

28. Please don't , and please clue me in.

Thought I'd been keeping up pretty well, but I don't get the 21 days. I have a good excuse, though. June 21 was our anniversary, so I was preoccupied with being a good husband. :evilgrin:

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newmajority]

21. Let's just say some here are credibility challenged

when they have done nothing BUT attack Obama since the day it became apparent that their candidate's "inevitability" was cancelled.

I have criticized Obama's vote on FISA myself. But I didn't bring along a string of Presumably Unhinged Mentally Absent cowards to recommend the thread after I posted it.

[LWolf]

51. I don't think my credibility is challenged.

My position on Obama has been consistent since before he declared his candidacy. I'm appalled at his nomination.

I haven't flip-flopped.

I've been just as consistent about HRC, since you seem to think that anyone who disagrees with Obama must be a disgruntled HRC supporter.

It just isn't so.

[newmajority]

65. That's why I said "some".

I know the difference between those who are opposing his positions honestly from the left, such as yourself, and those who have all but disappeared after June 11, only to come out of the woodwork to chime in on all these threads, because they still have a grudge.

Ironically, it's their DLC heroes that have helped to create the political climate that forces someone like Obama to believe he has to play to the mythical non-existent "center" in order to win an election, instead of the millions who turned out to see and hear him, and vote for him in the primaries.

[LWolf]

69. I believe you;

I believe that YOU believe Obama is playing the middle to "win."

I disagree, but I can understand why you'd think that.

I also think it's reasonable to assume that some chime in because they have a grudge.

I think the really important thing is this:

Obama, and his campaign, needs to ensure that the left, including the left wing of his own party, don't abandon him in disgust for 3rd party candidates. If he doesn't, if he's more concerned about republican swing voters and conservative independents, he plays the DLC playbook, and they win. Again.

Railing about McCain, and expecting him to walk different than his talk after the election, is not going to keep many who are at risk.

Issues voters want the issues addressed.

[newmajority]

71. My own political ideology is much more in line with Dennis Kucinich or Michael Moore

And I agree 100% with something Michael Moore said a few years ago. That the majority of Americans are liberal, whether they realize it or not, because they hold liberal values. That's my paraphrase, I don't remember his exact wording, but it was in one of his books, and I also heard him say so at a live appearance locally.

Problem is that the whore media, the Repukes, and the DLC have convinced them that "Liberal" is a dirty word, and never mentions that it was Liberals who founded this country in the first place, and that everything good that has ever happened in the history of the US, has come from Liberals (including Abe Lincoln, and even to some degree, Teddy Roosevelt, both of whom would have been thrown out of the current Republican party)

My first choice for a Presidential candidate in this round was Al Gore. I was convinced he would step in right up through Halloween or so. Once November hit, two months away from Iowa, I figured it was too late.

Loved what Kucinich was saying, but I knew he didn't have a prayer of winning the nomination, in the current poisoned political climate, which is a loss for all of us. Even Edwards, who co-opted a lot of the Dennis talking points into his own platform (in contrast to his DLC platform from 2004) was deliberately shut out by the whore media. After Iowa, I went with Obama, initially more as the only viable alternative to Hillary, if nothing else, because I knew what we would get with her. BushBushBushClintonClintonBushBushClinton - more of the same fucking shit.

Will Obama be another JFK or FDR? We can hope. As long as he's better than a Bush or a Clinton, it will at least be a step in the proper direction. I remain hopeful that he will be even better than that. Sadly this country isn't ready for a President Kucinich yet. But we have to start pushing back to reality somewhere, and I truly believe that will happen.

If I'm proven wrong, I'll bring the hammer and nails, and you bring the lumber for my crucifixion. :evilfrown:

[LWolf]

75. I won't crucify.

If I'm right, and you are wrong, we'll both be disappointed.

I think what I think, but,

I don't WANT to be right.

[LowerManhattanite]

56. In-deed! And some of 'em are here in this very thread.n/t

[HughMoran]

24. Sounds good to me...

[JohnnyLib2]

27. Love the dead horse smilie!

[AllentownJake]

25. You (people pissed about FISA) held him to account

You called his office and campaign and started a group on MYBO which btw was not deleted by his campaign (you think McCain would allow a group critical of him to exist on his website). Some have with held donations and toned down volunteering.

What do you want his first born for the vote or maybe a walk on some hot coals.

There were other democratic senators who voted for the bill. Some in the states and districts where people pissed about this live in. They are getting a pass right now and Obama is taking all the heat from the Angry Fisa crowd.

[John Q. Citizen]

30. Obama promised the grassroots that he would help filibuster any bill with immunity.

Then he reneged on his pledge. I think Obama realizes that he made a political error. His comments today that he's "a progressive" seemed aimed at reassuring his base.

I think Obama needs to do something to mitigate his FISA position switch, vote, and lack of filibuster with the part of his base that cares about FISA. Maybe he could lead a group of Senators to join the ACLU suit as co- plaintiffs.

The fact he gave out and received back a VP questionnaire from Dodd might help; Especially if he chose Dodd. That would give some real credibility to his pledge to revisit FISA after he's president. (I'm not saying he should choose Dodd. I'm saying if he did it would help his FISA problem.

I don't know. Got any real suggestions on what he can do to re-engage his FISA disappointed base?

[AllentownJake]

32. The Filabuster

Wasn't possible. The immunity provision was voted for by 66 Senators.

The FISA supporters of a filabuster on here expected the democratic nominee to stop campaigning and raising money to go back to the Senate for a week to twist arms to engage in a Filabuster on a bill the American people do not understand other than it helps get terrorist. Chances are his attempts to lead the filabuster would have failed and he would have even looked weaker as a leader of the party and would have opened him up to attacks that he's weak on terrorist.

Did anyone consider that vote counting took place before he changed his position on a filabuster?

He pledged to take public financing but sometimes politically things change and you need to adapt. We can afford to be unabashed idealist. People aren't depending on us getting elected. Sometimes your stuck in a no win situation. FISA was a catch 22 and he was fucked no matter what he did.

[John Q. Citizen]

36. There was a cloture vote the day before the Dodd/Fiengold amendment to strip

immunity.

Obama was missing. He didn't help. People expect when a public servant makes a pledge that they will follow through. You can make excuses for why he didn't honor his pledge. Maybe his daughter had a cold. Maybe his wife's mother in law came to visit unexpectedly, and if he supported the filibuster she would have been mad and told the press that he's still a closet smoker.

Excuses aren't strong and presidential. We got a bunch of excuses as to why the telecoms who were bugging Americans before 9/11 couldn't stop the 9/11 attacks. It was because bush didn't want to appear authoritarian - whatever.

Excuses don't cut it. When you use them instead of saying, yeah, he totally bugged out on his promise, you and Obama look worse.
Ever have someone tell you some lame excuse? Did it make them look good? Presidential? Or pathetic?

Obama didn't pledge to take public financing. Get your story straight.

FISA required the integrity and courage to follow through on a promise.

So i take it you don't have any ideas about mitigating Obama's failure on FISA? OK, well you better be prepared to hear a lot more about it then. I hope Obama has some ideas.

[AllentownJake]

37. LOL

Other than on here I doubt I'll here anything about it in the real world but I'll let you know if I do and I'll repeat exactly what I said about a catch 22.

I'm sorry he failed your little test and I'm sorry you have a west wing/Jimmy stewart impression on how the Senate and House works.

I also love how the real people responsible for this got a total pass by all you Purist.

[John Q. Citizen]

44. You don'thave to do anything. Obama can break promises anytime he wants to and you can make excuses

for him, if you want to.

If you don't believe Obama is a real person, well OK. You don't have to.

Nobody has to do anything.

[AllentownJake]

53. Ummm he's a politian and a human being

They break promises all the time. Some more so than others. He does it sometimes like all the other ones. You find me a politian that hasn't broken a promise and I'll show you someone working in a shoe store because they are no longer in office. Sometimes for political reasons and sometimes because the situation changes. When that benevalant dictator comes along you let me know.

Wow and the purist are calling me the naive one.

[LVjinx]

40. So it's only ok to filibuster bills that would fail even without the filibuster?

Wow... My entire understanding of this process has been wrong. Filibustering is just an arm flexing technique, a candidate putting nothing on the line because the bill was damned to failure anyway? And if the bill is likely to pass, it's equally appropriate for a candidate to not try to filibuster? So the only point of filibustering is pretending to be responsible for opposing something you already knew wasn't going to pass?

Ludicrous.

I can't believe some of the things I read here anymore. Obama is the presumptive nominee. If he'd made restoring constitutional order a focus of his campaign, he could have pressured the other dems into joining his filibuster. Not one of them - not one - would be willing to take the heart (edit: heat, even) for openly defying their nominee's central message in an election year.

[AllentownJake]

41. 60 votes ends any filabuster

FYI you might want to bone up on your senate rules. and he isn't a dictator with a 125 margin in the delegate count the rest given to him by those people you'd like for him to boss around.

[John Q. Citizen]

45. You are right. Obama doesn't need to try. Nobody needs to try. Why? Why try?

Better to go to the beach.

[AllentownJake]

52. How do you know he didn't try?

Alot goes on behind the scenes we don't know about.

If a vote count was taken and it was obvious it was going to go into defeat you chose your battles espicially in an election year when you are the nominee for President. Your in the middle of trying to unite your party and you are suggesting taken an action to divide the party further.

Of course us keyboard warriors can say whatever we want because we know everything.

[John Q. Citizen]

54. He wasn't there to vote against cloture. The vote is recorded and you can see who voted for and who

against.

Have you seen the Rassmusan poll? For 3 days the race is tightening, Obama is slipping.

Makes sense. The last time (Oct) Americans were polled on FISA and immunity a solid majority were opposed to immunity and to expanded warrantless wiretapping.

I guess your argument is that in an election year, it's best to vote against your base especially when the issue your base is opposed to is also unpopular with the public at large.

So, if you want Obama to slip even further, maybe you should recommend he come out solidly against choice. After all, his base is pro-choice, a majority of Ameicans are pro-choice, and if he comes out against choice, McCain can't use it against him.

It fits your FISA model perfectly.

Good thinking.

More of his base will be upset with him, and the anti-choicers will vote against him anyway. With friends like you, Obama doesn't need McCain.

[AllentownJake]

55. Most Americans have no clue WTF Fisa is

The only place I hear about FISA is on here.

My argument is that the bill was going to pass. There was nothing to do to stop it. There were plenty of other Dems that voted for it yet they get a pass because people like to pile on Obama here for some reason. Do I like FISA no, however I think that the uproar on here against Obama is stupid and counterproductive to longer term goals but you know the fast food culture we are in I want everything now or I'm going to pout like petulant children.

[John Q. Citizen]

57. A minority of Dems voted for it. They didn't make a pledge and then go back on thier word.

I've already called my DINO US Senator (Baucus ) and made my displeasure loud and clear.

I won't vote for him, but I'm still voting for Obama.

Even though I think Obama blew it both policy wise and politically.

You can make all the excuses you want, but read the polling. He's slipping and if that bugs you perhaps you might want to help him out here and suggest he do something to mitigate his political problem with his FISA switch.

If it doesn't bug you that he's slipping, you can say. "It was a great move. He's slipping because the media is unfair," and just basically remain in denial.

By the way, the largest group on Obama's web site lobbied hard to get him to do what he pledged. 23,000 Obama supporters. I imagine you haven't heard about FISA at Obama's website because you have never been to his web site.

That's because you are such a strong supporter, right?

[AllentownJake]

63. LOL

You have no clue who you are talking with. No clue at all.

I've stated several times about the group on his website of that and an example of him being a strong enough candidate that he doesn't have his web team delete it.

I don't like the vote. I don't support the vote. However, I'm not interested in opening a left flank for him during a presidential election. When he's elected I'll let him and people I know, know when I'm disapointed.

[Breeze54]

73. Obama is the ONLY Democratic Senator that is running to be President.

He's front and center and he put himself in this position by his vote.

It wasn't that silly FISA crowd that did it to him at all.

It's now his job to take the heat and I'm sure he expected it.

"the Angry Fisa crowd"? That should be every citizen in the US of A!

But the anger seems to be calming down, imho. It will dissipate over time.

There are 3 & 1/2 months to go to the election. Hearts and minds will change.

But don't kid yourself that some post or comment on DU will change the election.

That's just silly! :silly:

[Duder]

26. Campaigning and governing...

Are two different animals. Some understand, some don't.

[20score]

34. Did you people with the harsh criticism even read the post?

I have been volunteering for Obama for months, and will continue to do so, but blind obedience to anyone is beyond me. I was trying to unit a little bit, after reading some of the posts here.

[badiou]

39. eternal undying loyalty of single-minded unity

seriously, sometimes it feels like the Politburo circa 1930s. Some of you guys need to learn that you can critically support someone without being a traitor, this is the "democratic"underground afterall is it not?

[Bobbie Jo]

42. Thanks for the tip

Somehow out of my single-mindedness, I get the concept.

Here's one for you:
Others may NEED TO LEARN how to title their posts if they don't like to be mischaracterized themselves.

Welcome to "D" U

FYI...The "Democratic" refers to the Democratic Pary, NOT democracy, as in form of government. :patriot:

[LynneSin]

43. Should we also start 82 threads to criticize him and suggesting voting 3rd party?

that's my issue

[John Q. Citizen]

46. If you want to, do it. iI you don't, don't. Live and let live.

[crankychatter]

47. FIFTEEN WEEKS TO NO MORE BUSH - and you wanna justify ROASTING the Candidate

fuck this horse shit... I mean that in a constructive way

[20score]

48. You're brilliant! Your depth and understanding of the issues is just amazing!

[crankychatter]

49. I'm not going to waste my energy on it... make a positive suggestion or STFU

half the eligible electorate don't vote because of the conviction that money purchases more influence on government policy than ALL our votes.

Get OUT of here, and convince them differently or

you're only IN THE WAY

We have a war to fight in the next fifteen weeks... more is riding on this election than any election in modern history

Racism, jingoism and ethnocentricity are issues I understand quite well.

You want to combat it? Then recruit some soldiers.

You want to educate and alleviate the problems in our political opposition? That's not something you're going to do in the next fifteen weeks. We've been working on it as a society for a long time. We're doing well and Obama's very candidacy, embodies our hopes and dreams... decades of blood, sweat and tears.

Your negativity is infectious... you should be quarantined.

[20score]

50. Did you read the whole post? I am a volunteer for Obama and will continue

to volunteer. Your post was positive? Are you kidding? Read your own crap and think! I mean that in a constructive way.

[Tarheel_Dem]

79. Sorry, but you sound like those "lifelong Democrats" who volunteer to

call liberal talk shows, and they start out by saying "I'm a lifelong Democrat, and I support Obama, BUT....blah blah blah. I always thought they were suspect, but Randi Rhodes said the other day that she contributes to the RNC just so she's privvy to their mailing lists, and marching orders. And guess what Rule #1 is...calling liberal talk shows, and "posing" as a Democrat. Rule 2? Posting on leftwing blogs and other internet sites about your displeasure over the presumptive nominee.

I'm not accusing you, of course, but after a while it's just boring.

[20score]

82. You

Suck.

[Tarheel_Dem]

83. Thanks. I guess you should know from suck.....nt

[Kahuna]

61. In my book, it's much better than yours. You want a fantasy candidate.

When was the last time one got elected?

[20score]

67. I'm sick of the divisiveness. So I'll try to explain nicely.

It has nothing to do with being a fantasy candidate and everything to do with what's right. And I also say this as someone who has been a volunteer for Obama since February and will continue to do so; so unless you work for the campaign full time, you have not done any more than I have, nor will you. That being said, the constitution is very important to me, and when anyone harms it, for whatever political reason, I have a right to speak out. So does everyone else. Obama himself gets this and allows for criticism on his own web page, he understands that the 'us vs them' or 'shut up now' type mentality is for the republicans. I went into this with the assumption everyone here is going to vote for Obama and there would be no reason to sit down and shut up, so to speak.

[Kahuna]

60. They don't get it. You don't try to destroy your own guy. I don't

understand what is so hard to understand.

[JVS]

77. !

:thumbsup:

good constructive criticism of the candidate-bashing horseshit

[Kahuna]

59. "Holding him accountable," means undermining him. Undermining him

means his defeat. If he knuckles under to pressure from any source he doesn't deserve to be president.

[Duder]

62. Obama accused of trying to win the election

The liberal blogosphere was aflame today with new accusations that Sen. Barack Obama is trying to win the 2008 presidential election.

Suspicions about Obama's true motives have been building during the past few weeks, but not until today have the bloggers called him out for betraying the Democratic Party's losing tradition.

"Barack Obama seems to be making a very calculated attempt to win more than 270 electoral votes," wrote liberal blogger Carol Foyler at LibDemWatch.com, a blog read by a half-dozen other liberal bloggers. "He must be stopped."

But those comments were not nearly as strident as those of Tracy Klugian, whose blog LoseOn.org has backed unsuccessful Democratic candidates since 2000.

"Increasingly, Barack Obama's message is becoming more accessible, appealing and, yes, potentially successful," he wrote. "Any Democrat who voted for Dukakis, Mondale or Kerry should regard this as a betrayal."

Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean said that he was "sympathetic" to the concerns of bloggers who worry that their nominee seems stubbornly bent on winning the election, but he warned them that the DNC's "hands are tied."

"If Sen. Obama is really determined to win, I don't think any of us can talk him out of it," Dean said.

Liberal bloggers said that they would be watching Obama's vice-presidential selection process "very closely" for signs that he is plotting toward a victory in November. "Barack Obama still has a chance to pick someone disastrous as a sign that he wants to lose this thing," Foyler wrote. "If not, he should brace himself for some really mean blog posts."

--http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2008047020_borowitz12.html">Andy Borowitz

[creeksneakers2]

64. I'd like an exception to be allowed

for armchair strategy threads. They are lots of fun and get great participation.

[Kermitt Gribble]

66. Great post!

Welcome to DU!

[20score]

70. Thanks!

[IsItJustMe]

68. The best piece of advice I was ever given in life is that when you follow the herd, you step in shit

I must be honest, at least with myself. Obama's vote on FISA royally sucked. PERIOD.

Political expediency over principle is no way to show change. Let's see how it all works out. All I can say for sure is that you can bet your last dollar that there are now cracks in Obama's support.

How do I know? I am one of those cracks. This vote was deeply troubling and revealing for me.

[thewiseguy]

72. I am sorry but your point has been made over and over and over again

[JoFerret]

78. Sounds good to me. n/t

.