The lesson: Why should I respect ANY veteran?

[Must_B_Free]

The apparant lesson learned from the swift boat veterans for "truth" is that no veterans deserve any special respect. Veterans try to use their status as some reason to tell us all to shut up. They use it to say that their opinion is weightier than mine.

Well, if Boob Dole and Swift Boat liars think it's OK to attack Kerry on his earned respect, tell me why I should respect ANY veteran. If someone tries to pull the veteran rank on me, from now on, I'll just tell them they are probably liars and probably didn't get hurt badlyenough to earn my respect, even if they are a triple amputee like Max Cleland. Bush's paid liars have ruined the whole game for all of them. None of them get my respect anymore.

[TryingToWarnYou]

1. I know where you are coming from, but seriously

Dont condemn the actions or views of all veterans based on these assholes. Everyone is different and their views should be treated as such.

[Born Free]

42. I did not serve in Vietnam

I can't say that anything I did was worthy of pride during this time of my life and in many ways have felt guilty over the years for not serving in Vietnam, even if the war was wrong. I was stationed at Valley Forge Hospital in '70 and got to see things I will never forget, and this was after they were cleaned up to be sent state side. I even confess that one time I left the breakfast table, the fellow across from me had so many wires and pins holding his face together he could only use a straw, that day, it bothered me too much. Most were happy, maybe no legs or arms or skin - still don't understand that vision, more like something from a horror picture,to this day I question if I really saw that - and most were just "grunts" but they were going home, and that is all they cared about, perhaps they needed to learn to walk again or learn to live with a permanent disability but most were happy it was over for them.

Some vets do go overboard and see themselves as superior to everyone else, but for the most part we must not forget that some of them truly did earn the respect of others. The bush team is dishonoring these individuals that answered the call of duty, knowing they may never be the same again. The bush team has no morals, they will use anyone, everyone for political and financial gain . If there is a hell, there surely will be a special place there for people that destroy others lives for political and financial gain.

[BurtWorm]

67. The point is that the SBV'T' have made it acceptable to trash veterans

for political reasons. These guys are not about revealing the "truth" about Kerry. They're about exacting a political price on behalf of their chiecknhawk paymasters. The fact that several of them are on record praising Kerry suggests that the bar has progressively lowered. These guys have ruined it for ALL veterans; if a political point is to be made, no one's service is safe from false charges.

[Bandit]

68. They do not make it acceptable.

Just because some people have no morals does not mean that America finds it acceptable to behave in this manner. I do not find it acceptable. I did not find it acceptable when they did it to McCain either. It has nothing to do with partisanship. It is a despicable act and is not acceptable. It is one thing if a person was wearing a bunch of medals that were not on that person's official record. I feel they should be called on that. If a person has an official record that says they were awarded a medal then they can wear that medal and for someone to try and diminish that award is a despicable act. IMHO.

[BurtWorm]

69. Your standards are higher than the culture's.

When these kinds of lies are permitted to consume page 1 of the leading newspapers for day after day after day--when they're given equal weight with the truth--then the standrards have fallen irretrievably. I don't know what's going to turn it around, but wishing will not make it so.

[Cocoa]

2. it does take the luster off a little doesn't it?

but you stated it much stronger than I feel, personally. Though I know what you mean.

[wellstone_democrat]

3. That is *exactly* the effect of this

I've been saying this for a while. An attack on these men is an attack on us all (veterans). I related a story about a just-returned Iraq vet who asked the same question: "why should I believe that they respect my service? When will someone turn on me?"

Good questions. That is exactly what these liars and their vicious operatives have started. I find it sickening. I hope that active duty personnel are paying attention to this and start asking the question themselves.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brainshrub]

4. I've been thinking the same thing.

Especially when they talk about getting spit on.

There is no real documentation of any spitting incident, no misdemeanor charges, newspaper photos or police complaints.

[Ilsa]

8. Yeah, a woman claims her husband was spit on

when I was visiting another message board. I replied that my father in law took three tours and was never spat on. She was quick to point out that Kennedy and Johnson got us into VN, so I asked her why she would support a Republican for doing the same? She posts all this garbage that gets snoped. These people are really brainwashed.

[jonnyblitz]

35. there is a book on that very topic that states the same thing

that you posted. "The Spitting Image" is the name of it. It's an urban legend.

[CaTeacher]

48. Yes just a legend!

I (and my friends) have NEVER spit on anyone in a protest (whistling).

[Sugarbleus]

5. I kind of see what you mean. It's like my vet is better than your

vet/medal. With all this disrespect for whomever served, who in the hell would want to enlist ever again?!

Anyone see the poster on homepage? Great!

[Jackpine Radical]

6. When I got back from Nam

I let my hair & beard grow, got back into school, and, as best I could, concedaled the fact I was a vet. I guess it'll be kind of familiar to return to that status, just cringeing a little and mumbling something about prison whenever anybody asked me where I'd been.

[cally]

12. Jackpine...I don't think that's her point

The whole point is that if fellow veterans don't stand together about the awards, that it taints all. I don't believe it but these swiftboat ads and the lack of too many high profile vets speaking out taints all servicemembers. We should shun the politicos not the servicemembers.

[stavka]

13. Sad lesson from this picture.....

It just doesn't matter...the government doesn't care

I hope people march even harder and in greater numbers in the future...
photo is awesome.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[K-W]

9. that doesnt make you a higher status citizen

and that is the point, our society gives veterans nothing but special status, we underfund veterans hospitals, but god forbid anyone doesnt give a veteran reverance. I am all for taking care of those whos lives were effected by war, but now we see that giving veterans special status is dangerous, because they are as capable of deciet as the rest of us.

[Dhalgren]

10. Hey, TX VN Viet, you missed the point.

The poster is saying that with the way the president is dragging war veterans through the dirt, why shgould anyone respect vets, anymore? If an AWOL president can smear a vet with FIVE combat citations, then why should anyone respect any vet. Get it? And I'm a vet, too.

[TX VN Viet]

11. His last line got my goat

"None of them get my respect anymore."

[stavka]

18. I'd say "Take a deep breath" before responding to anything on DU

You'll find anybody who disrespects Vets of any sort in long tirades gets run off pretty quickly by the moderators and users... a badly phrased sentence should be questioned, but F*** Y**, should really be used only by the vice president in the Senate when discussing opinions IMHO

[TX VN Viet]

22. I did mess up

Now I'm being compared to chinny

[LynnTheDem]

55. Sorry to interrupt but...

ROTFLMAO!!!

but F*** Y**, should really be used only by the vice president in the Senate when discussing opinions IMHO


That was hilarious! Can I bill you for the can of wasted soda I snorted up my nose? :D

[cally]

14. I'm not disrespecting your service

and I think the origianal post is little over the top. However, I do think these attacks on Kerry and the lack of outrage by many vets shows a lack of respect for all the medals and service given. If it's OK to question someone's medals for political reasons then everyone's service can be questioned. I don't believe that but I think all need to stand up for all our vets. Those, like me, who have never seen war have no idea what it means. I'm dismayed that too many vets are allowing a fellow vet to be tarnished.

[stavka]

15. ...I don't think you caught the meaning of this post.

The point was that "Swift Boats for slime" has made every American think that the official record of every Vet might be a lie.

Given you have 11 posts to your credit, and come from TX and seem to just off the bat (having 11 posts) start off with a hardy "Fuck You" with no less than 14 explanation marks following makes me, who gives every bit of doubt to Vets, a bit of suspicion.

Also,"I challenge you to disrespect my service. Fuck You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" has in it's tone a threat of violence I don't like -

So if you are offended, I'm sorry - and equally thank you for your service to this country and ask you to tone it down a bit.

[TX VN Viet]

19. I think I over reacted

Sorry about the FU I guess I am a little sensitive to attacks on Vietnam Veterans lately hopefully you can understand why. My appoligys to all.

[VOX]

26. Understood, TX VN Vet...

Your service to our country is greatly appreciated.:thumbsup:

What's frustrating is when one's honest, meritorious service is twisted into something it never was, and then used as a weapon, as we're seeing in the smear campaign now against Kerry.

[nini]

27. Thanks for your service from the sister of a Vietnam vet

My brother who went to Vietnam took all kinds of hell from another brother who was a conscientious objector. The brother who went to 'nam thought he was doing the right thing at the time. He feels the same you do and is reliving a lot of the animosity all over again.

Your reaction is understandable

[vetwife]

32. My husband is extremely passive now and most men who

truly were up close and personal to the battle with a few exceptions hate war.

[LynnTheDem]

57. How about...

GROUP HUG and some BEER!





Unfortunately tho the original poster is right; many people will tar all veterans with the Swift Boat Liars brush. They see Bob Dole tar a war hero; they saw bushCo do it to McCain. They saw bushco do it to Cleland. They saw the same bunch even do it to Poppa Bush.

Many people do realize there is at the very least something not strictly above board about bush's own military service.

So if all these war heros, and even the sitting President of the United States have dubious military records, wouldn't that lead one to assume all the plain ol' regular average Joe vets also have at least the same dubiousness? Or so a whole lot of people are going to think, probably not even consciously.

And that is another tragedy brought to us courtesy of the bushAdminstration.

[Berserker]

16. Must_B_Free

I find it a sad thing indeed to read what you said about vets of which I am proud to be one. The fact you can say these things on the internet is called freedom of speech. Without which you could not display your ignorance. Those of you who did not serve don't know what the hell you are talking about. Your words are empty to me. I would suggest to you that you do not display that attitude to a vet to his face. On the internet it's very easy to be a bad ass but in real life as you know it's different. Your name says it all Thank a Vet.

[Must_B_Free]

66. Indoctrinated

Ahh, the tired rhetoric of the indoctrinated - the lies that are told to young men to get them to donate their blood and souls to the war machine.

"Those of you who did not serve don't know what the hell you are talking about. "

Exactly the type of rank pulling that I referred to. You are no better than I. I go to work every day and enable the supply chain that puts food in your mouth and clothes on your back and heavy machinery - everything that makes your modern life possible. You think I don't serve? I serve you every working day of my life. Do you thank me? Do you afford me any special consideration? Do you even know I exist?

Don't take it out on me. The Swift Boat Vets are the ones who destroyed the respect vets had. They put partisan politics ahead of respect. They proved that it doesn't mean jack.

[Bridget Burke]

36. You missed the point.

The Swift Boat guys started it & Bob Dole has continued. If they can disrespect certain veterans--why should we respect any?

It's like a rhetorical question.

[Leilani]

17. I think this goes a little over the top

During this Bush Admin, we are hitting new lows in all aspects of politics....not only involving vets.

The Swift Boat guys are tools for Bush...they are so few, & there are so many vets who have given their all. This is really not about vets...it is just dirty politics.

Karl Rove found Kerry s strongest attribute & attacked & smeared him.
Same done to Cleland & McCain. Rove would not know a vet if he tripped over one. Sure he has never visited Walter Reed.

So, please do not stereotype...that is what the other side does. Think about it rationally, not emotionally.

[vetwife]

21. You have just took me on ......

There is no such thing as a good war. But......a warrior does not pick his battles or choose his fight. The majority of veterans did not have a choice in serving. They were drafted ! Many went because they were brought up with the belief in defending America, whether it was true or not. But I bet you respect the guy who won Survival on Reality Tv. Give me a break !. Have you seen people blown to bits in front of your eyes? Have you? Have you seen your friend die in your arms as you are dodging bullets? HAve you ate rats when rations were not flown in during a monsoon? Have you had you mind and body worn out by the government telling you, they owned you? And after suffering through all of that, bring that war home with you and not live out your dreams because of nightmares and flashbacks? Respect is earned. What in the Hell have you done for you country? What have you done for you fellow man? You sound like a chickenhawk panzie who couldn't hack the Alabama National Guard. Is that you George? I see you have 1000 posts but were half of them flamebaits? I got no use for you. The warrior and the war are two separate things and if you don't understand that, then I suggest you read My Pet Goat. If I have misinterepreted your post, then my apolgies, if I didn't, then my post stands. If you were trying to make a point then you should understand the veteran community is in trouble tonight, emotionally and don't need this. Those poeple in the anti Kerry movement are Rove operatives and don't want to deal with their own reality of what happened. They have forgotten the Brotherhood. Not all veterans should be painted with such a broad stroke of a pen. By the way, I am not a vet. I just fight like Hell for them !

[Leilani]

23. To Vetwife:

Are you posting to me? I agree with your anger about smearing vets.

Or were you responding to the original poster?

[vetwife]

24. Original Poster .....

Ya'll know me and I call it like I see it. Sorry Le, is that was misdirected.

[Leilani]

28. No Problem!

Just wanted to make sure you knew I was on your side.

[T Town Jake]

38. Excellent post, vetwife...

...you summed up what I was feeling so much better than I could have ever expressed it.
:thumbsup:

[JSJ]

50. hearing this empty 'pity me' rhetoric for decades...

...and it always lies in wait for the next batch of wanna-be vets to tell us 'love the warrior hate the war'- well, there isn't anything lovable about either. Kids? Don't do it- don't join the military of a country that commits slaughters instead of two-sided wars. Otherwise, the rest of us will have to hear your crap for eons to come.

[timtom]

54. I'd like to take off from your position

I'm a Vietnam vet. USMC. When I was in Saigon, I saw an officer who had graduated Annapolis, and was a Goldwater Republican, back in Saigon, when he was supposed to be incountry. I said, "Lieutenant xxxxxx. What brings you to Saigon?" He replied, "I'm going back, xxxxxxxx. I'm not going to get my ass shot off --- for WHAT?"

That got me to thinking, because this was in 1965 and what he was saying seemed the equivalent of "I'm resigning my commission," or "I ain't marching anymore."

There is a most amazing scene in the Richard Lester surrealistic movie, "How I Won the War" in which we see a German soldier standing by a bridge they are about to blow up. A voice from off screen yells, "Hey (Hans)! Did you hear that? We don't have to fight. We can go home now." The German soldier on screen looks directly into the camera (and, hence, into our eyes) and speaks, as though reading stage directions from the script: "'Thank Christ for that,' he said, taking off his helmet, and thus helping to perpetuate the rather dangerous myth that soldiers don't like war....which they DO."

And, of course, there's the old poster/bumper sticker/tee shirt that poses the question, "What if they gave a war and nobody came?"

It takes a great deal of character to speak truth to power, character that I'm not sure I have. But soldiering is a choice, draft notwithstanding.

<Edit for a stupid grammatical error>

[JSJ]

61. thanks, nathan hale (vet)- that was excellent 1st hand info n/t

[Massacure]

20. Veterans are what keep this country safe

Normally I make people earn respect, but veterans will always have my respect until they blow it.

[BillZBubb]

25. Logically you have a great point.

Too bad most people aren't moved by logic. This is a great way to attack the SwiftScum though, if we could come up with a simple analogy that Joe Sixpack could latch onto.

[Kinkistyle]

29. Good point. Its because Dems are so honorable.

In other words, what have the Swift Boat Liars for Bush done? If Kerry's record is in question, then all those f*cks who are lying for a AWOL deserter are no better. But Dems are honorable and don't lie or put down servicemen to further their causes. The cards are stacked against us.

[kodi]

30. because you should honor their sacrifice, if not them personally

there were brave wehrmacht soldiers too you know

[sampsonblk]

33. Two hundred year-old argument for which there is no answer

If a person got drafted and went only because they had to, what does that tell us about the person? Nothing, IMHO.

I guess all we can do is recognize that they did make a sacrifice, involuntary as it was, and that they followed the rules. Some of us were not old enough to defend ourselves during the Vietnam war. So others went for us (sort of). And for that, I think we should all be grateful, even those like myself who think that war was stupid.

Ever since Vietnam, the first confirmed stupid war we ever had, your question has become harder and harder to answer.

<end ramble>

[NightTrain]

34. To each his own, but I can't bring myself to openly disrespect veterans.

Particularly if they saw combat duty, which I was lucky enough not to. I even grudgingly respect those sleazy Swift Boat Veterans For "Truth" because of their service in Vietnam. It's what they're trying to do to John Kerry that makes me detest them as rotten human beings!

[deacon]

37. Bush and Rove have zero respect for veterans-- they don't understand

that they are smearing all vietnam veterans. It's ignoran, ruthless and disgraceful. And, they couldn't care less.

War Hero v. The Deserter
An Easy Choice

Kerry/Edwards 2004

[LibraLabSoldier]

39. Not all Vets

use their service to parlay into some political office. Some of us know what we are doing for this country. All being a veteran really does is gives you a stronger appreciation for what we really have as Americans. I don't blame you for your feelings. On some of the conservative forums I have posted on, it seems that the only veterans whose opinions are counted are those that were so indoctrinated that they never speak against the status quo. That aint me.

I have always spoken my mind. You should never beleive everything anyone has to say. After all, we are only human.

[Swamp Rat]

52. Thank you. You are the kind of vet that makes America great.

You understand the poster's feelings and his humanity. I doubt that this is a rare trait or that few soldiers understand this. Most vets I know (9 in my family, off the top of my head) KNOW that they fought for freedom of speech, etc.

Do you work in medicine? Just wondering... that's my guess.

Not ALL military are humane but I'm willing to believe that most are... I mean, my dad is a vet (Air Force-Korea) and he's one of the kindest and most intelligent people I know. He was an honorable officer then left to get his PhD. Does he deserve Must_B_Free's respect? Damn straight he does! I know for a fact that he would respect Must_B_Free's right to say something asinine, as do I. Apparently you do too.

Veterans as a group and individuals are one of the best allies we have here at DU, and for democracy in general. Let's not screw this up, especially now.

[LibraLabSoldier]

53. I am nobody special.

I just do my job. I knew as soon as Bush *won* the last election, we would be going to Iraq. I didnt know why or how, but I knew we would be going. Yes, I work in a lab. I was a medic for three years, and three years before that I was an Artillery soldier. I switched because I didnt want to kill people without ever seeing them. This is not because I am a gun toting psycho....I have a friend who is training to work in the lab. He actually had to kill someone in Iraq. It was a him or me circumstance, but he still has nightmares about it. He is a stronger person than I am. I feel that all veterans deserve respect simply for serving, and doing the job that no one else wants, with horrible hours, lousy pay, and terrifying conditions.

However, as a whole, we have opinions, prejudices and misconceptions just like everyone else. So, I understand why he feels the way he does.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. You're right.

Veterans should receive no more respect than any other citizen just becaus they're vets.

Nor do they have any more aptitude for elective office than any other citizen just because they're a vet.

Jefferson wasn't a vet. Washington was. Lincoln was. Wilson wasn't.
FDR wasn't. Kennedy was. Nixon was. Eisenhower was. McGovern was.
Bush the elderboob was.

Vets may be somewhat better than average at shooting of guns, shining shoes, bitching and moaning, mopping floors, marching, than most folks, but it doesn't qualify them to speak on public issues any more than others.

BTW I'm a vet.

[nolabels]

43. Respect is born from wisdom and the fear of the unknown

A man who is boisterous about it often has something to hide, where as a quiet man is someone who thinks others really would be better off not to have known. The most scariest people I have met are the ones who can only portray their feelings through actions. Psychopaths and chimp have much in common.

To break the tendency or tradition of fear one must know what is possible and what is not, it's simple if you think about it.

[Leilani]

49. I have a different opinion...

I always favored Kerry over Bush, of course, but when I heard the story of his split-second decision to turn his boat around & while under fire, rescue a man overboard, it forged a new respect.

That decision he had to make, told us a lot about him. And we knew he would have reacted different than Dubya did on 9/11. It proved his bravery & judgement.

And with his experiences of Vietnam, we know he would go to war ONLY if he had to. Dubya thought NOTHING of sending people off to war.

A person does not need military experience or war experience to be Prez, but we found out a lot about Kerry because of his war experience.

[jonnyblitz]

70. I am a vet and I completely agree with your post.

I can live without freeper vets, too...

[HEyHEY]

41. I think you can respect parts of people

example : Guy is a dipshit and an asshole - so you don't respect him as a person, but you can respect the fact he went to war and lived through terrible shit for what he thought was a good reason.

[Bake]

44. MOD: You fucking DELETED my post???

Because I cited, WITH APPROVAL, an editorial that says that the result of the Swift Liars Bunch is to call into question the service of all Vietnam vets???

ARE YOU AN IDIOT OR WHAT????????

I've been here for four years, with over 3,000 posts, and you think I'm a TROLL??? I got two words for you: guess what they are.

Bake

[Bake]

46. I'm still waiting for an answer.

Also in the Ask the Admins forum. Sometime tonight would be nice.

Bake

[Bake]

47. Still waiting. Never f'ing mind.

Ain't worth it. Adios.

Bake

[puerco-bellies]

45. Principles before personalities

As a vet I feel that I have put my money (life) where my mouth is. That does not make me any more of a citizen then anyone else, but it does entitle me to question someone's opinion of my patriotism if they did not have the balls, or love of country to serve (I served in the non-draft late 70's early 80's). But whether or not you feel that service to one's country is honorable or not, you SHOULD respect those who did answer the call, if not for the person, at least for the principle of service and sacrifice to the greater good (at least in theory).

[JSJ]

51. claptrap n/t

[MadProphetMargin]

56. Speaking as a veteran, you should not.

Any veteran who insists on special treatment or "respect" simply due to their service is a whiner.

Pointing to service to demonstrate qualifications (such as on a job application, for example) is fine, but demanding to be worshipped is not.

[LibraLabSoldier]

59. one soldier to another

Thank you for your service, and thank you for your post. I have been baited and attacked on both Forums I post on (Liberty News Forum (conservative) is the other) for expressing my opinions as a soldier. I dont want special treatment. Any veteran that begs for it brings us all down.

[MadProphetMargin]

60. You're currently serving?

I did 10 years infantry before being injured (seriously enough to be medically discharged, but not seriously enough to cripple me).

I'm feeling for ya, bro...I've SEEN what Bush has done to the military.

Just pray you never need the VA...because it's suffered even WORSE cutbacks.

[LibraLabSoldier]

62. Active duty, for the time being....

This is my last enlistment, due to injuries. I had to fight with them to let me stay in and finish this tour. I did not want a medical chapter. SO this is it for me, come December of 2006.

[MadProphetMargin]

63. Why not? If you got hurt line-of-duty, you have earned the compensation

that comes with a medical.

[LibraLabSoldier]

64. Just some personal macho junk....

I suppose. I didnt get promoted like I wanted to, and was being pressured by the unit that screwed me on my promotion to "just go ahead and get out" so it was mainly thumbing my nose at them. Also, my wife and kids have some expensive medical problems.

[LynnTheDem]

58. THINK about this, people!

The average not-very-interested-in-politics man or woman and especially the younger 20s crowd, won't sit & think this all out for themselves.

They see Bob Dole and SBLs smearing a war hero.

They see bush allowing it and refusing to denounce it.

They see (over & over & over) the media say it's a "he says they say" thing.

They saw bush do this to McCain.

They saw bush do this to Cleland.

They saw it done to Poppa Bush.

They know something's not perfect with bush's own service record.

A whole lot of people are going to just assume that if ALL THESE HEROS and even the SITTING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES have dubious military srvice, with ALL THEIR POWER AND MONEY to have covered this all up permanently, then it stands to reason that everyday average Joe type veterans must have dubious service records too.

It's NOT RIGHT and everyone here is saying IT'S NOT RIGHT. But it IS what a lot of people will think, even if unconsciously.

The seeds of doubt have been sown by bush & his Cartel for many years now.

And THAT is why we're so damned FURIOUS with bush and his SBLiars and Dole and etc. Because THEY have planted seeds of doubt now, cast shadows over, EVERY veteran.

In Germany, the people still do not like their soldiers. Every male in Germany is required to do 1 year military or 2 years public service. Even though the German army was a fine army and committed no more atrocities than any other army does, and even though the males in Germany have no choice, those who pick the 1 year army service are shunned by the German people. Still. To this day. 50+ years later.

How long will shadows cloud and seeds of doubt sow over our veterans, thanks to bush and his past decade of sowing those seeds and casting those shadows?

WE know this is just political bullshit. But there are a million Americans...50 million Americans...who knows how many?...who do NOT realize this, who do NOT follow politics, who do NOT believe any president would lie about a veteran. And THAT is what bush cold-bloodedly plans on.

[ScreamingMeemie]

65. We find ourselves in a truly unfortunate situation.

I respect an honor "the service is a veteran has given to his country". I do not have to respect his opinions or his person, for that matter. I respect the service that John McCain gave to his country...I have no respect for the man himself. If they kick flip floppers out of the Republican Party should this man not be gone? :hi: