Warning! Dean slam - Diary of a Dean-o-Phobe

[bigtree]

Got thick skin?

Diary of a Dean-o-Phobe
(Jonathan Chait is a senior editor at TNR.)

http://www.tnr.com/deanophobe.mhtmlIt's not entirely clear to me why I've taken such an intense dislike to Howard Dean. Yes, I find him arrogant and frequently dishonest. Yes, I'm certain his nomination would lead to a political disaster of historic, and possibly biblical, proportions. And, yes, I'm continuously dumbfounded that a number of highly intelligent people I know have convinced themselves that his nomination is a good thing, or at least that it's not an unambiguously bad thing. But somehow the whole of my loathing for Dean is greater than the sum of its parts. So I've decided to start a blog on TNR's website to indulge that loathing.

Earlier this year I wrote a piece for TNR that defended hatred of President Bush. (I argued that hating Bush may lead to irrationality--rooting against the capture of Saddam Hussein, or, say, nominating Howard Dean--but it's not irrational in and of itself.) But recently I'm finding that Dean hatred is crowding out Bush hatred in my mental space. It's not that I think Dean would be a worse president than Bush--he'd probably be better, although that's extremely faint praise given that Bush is the worst president of the last 80 years. Bush is like the next-door neighbor who lets his dog poop on your lawn and his kid shoot bb's at your house and who says something irritating to you every day on his way to work. Dean, on the other hand, is like the ne'er-do-well who's dating your daughter. You realize the neighbor is a worse person than the boyfriend, but the boyfriend (and the frightening prospect that he'll become your son-in-law) consumes more of your attention.

This hits me just right. It is just a slam nonetheless. Not so easy to defend the animosity, but the writer gave me an evil chuckle.

Forbidden hate speech. Sorry Deanies. Fire away. Don't completely disembowl the messenger. [e-mail]

[Jack_Dawson]

1. I don't hate Dean - I just know Clark is our ticket to WINNING

And if Clark ain't the nominee, we're losing 44 states to 6. Those good and well-intended people who think differently have been spending too much time on this board and not enough time talking to people in the flyover states.

[TrueAmerican]

2. Good point.

But I still think Dean is dishonest.

[blm]

9. That's been my problem with Dean - his dishonesty.

I first saw it on Jan.23 and it just gets worse.

His supporters forgive and explain away his deceptions, but, that is what will be used to kill him and the whole Dem party in 2004.

[TLM]

21. Care to list the Jan 23rd deception?

Because at that time all Dean was attacking was the voting records of the dems who kept supporting Bush agenda.

[blm]

37. He said they supported Bush's taxcuts for the wealthiest. NONE did.

He said they were all saying they were antiwar now, when none had backed off their vote for IWR but were criticizing Bush for his lousy diplomatic efforts. Dean reduced the argument deceptively to prowar and antiwar, eliminating the nuance of his position and others, just like all demagogues do.

Thankfully, not ALL Dems fall for demagoguery from a centrist whose record doesn't match his populist rhetoric.

[chimpymustgo]

68. Blm, I saw it then, too, on MLK's birthday, re SC Confederate flag.

Dean was asked - i think by Judy Woodruff - about the Confederate flag flying over the SC statehouse. Dean hemmed, Dean hawed. It was a very uncomfortable moment. Finally he stammered that it was a "state issue". I knew in that instant, I had seen the essence of the man.

Why don't we believe people when they reveal themselves to us?

[liberalnurse]

30. Oh give it up.....

We all know that there are no priest running for President. Your guy ain't one either.

[Jack_Dawson]

34. Clark is pretty close to a Priest

You have to admit. This guy is a Boy Scout the likes of which the Democratic party has never seen.

[bitchkitty]

69. Never seen because he's not a Democrat

or wasn't until very recently.

[AP]

73. Edwards, Kucinich and Clark are all figurative "boyscouts."

And Kerry doesn't have anything to be embarrassed about either.

Dean's the one who tells the whoppers.

[blm]

47. He's much more honest than Dean

Dean's style of constant deception is more like Bush than any of the other candidates.

[blm]

61. And Kerry's rhetoric MATCHES his record.

THAT'S honesty and integrity.

[5thGenDemocrat]

62. Something I don't think I've ever seen posted here about Kerry

He was the only Senator up for reelection in 1996 to vote against the Defense of Marriage Act. That's liberal cred, kids.
John
Still a big Clark backer -- but Kerry's okay in my book, too.

[bigtree]

63. kerry's my soul-choice

but Wes Clark wins me over when I hear him speak. Pragmatic, straightfoward, and seemingly honest to a fault.

[GalleryGod]

76. Well,Uh, Howie's My 7th Choice!

That's pretty good:wtf: he used to be 22nd
:argh:

[Skwmom]

75. Did you hear the guy on Hardball tonight?

I lost track of the numbers of times he said the words Bush and trust (you can trust this president.....). I've said it before and I'll say it again TRUST is going to be a major issue in 2004. Because Dean has a big a trust issue as Bush many disenchanted Republicans will stick with Bush rather than voting for Dean.

[bearfartinthewoods]

77. agreed......better the devil you know....

there are so many instances where ther is no contrast between bush and dean, except for the obvious, taxes and the war. the two places where dean stands apart are losing issues with pubbies and many indies.

[TLM]

18. Sorry but Clark can't win now...

Not unless Saddam escapes.

Clark can't win. Now that Bush has caught Saddam, he will beat Clark in an election based on who is the biggest warrior/protector. Clark's whole campaign is based on being better at protecting the US than Bush, but Bush just showed that he can get Saddam.

Clark can yell AWOL and Bush can say, hey that didn't stop me from getting Saddam and protecting the country now! So Clark can't possibly win.

[Jack_Dawson]

26. Clark's Campaign isn't "Catch Saddam"

It's leadership. It's delivering on promises. It's taking the country back from a chimp.

[robbedvoter]

36. Actually, it's taking the country forward. *D and * want to take it back

http://www.clark04.com/americanson/
"Is America ready for another Rhodes scholar from Arkansas?
"I hope so. We make the best presidents!"
Wesley Clark

[LuminousX]

50. *D, what does that even mean

Bush get's the asterisk designation because of Doonesbury and being a President who wasn't elected. *D isn't even clever.

[HFishbine]

55. *

* President.

[mikehiggins]

41. Why would Clark cry AWOL?

How about "why ignore all the warnings about OSB and al Quida that the Clinton administration gave you?"

And let me clarify something. Clark's campaign is not based on his protecting America better; its based on Bush's proven inability to do it at all. Even if Bush pops OBL out of a mouse hole the week before election day the question still remains why did it take so long?

The campaign is based on being better than Bush, and giving the disgruntled GOP conservatives and independents someone to vote for that won't make them puke on their own shoes. Only someone in a drug induced fantasy world is going to imagine the Democratic base is going to sit home on Election Day and let their jobs, incomes, futures and their children's lives continue to slip from their grasp. The winning difference across the nation is going to be those conservatives who are so horrified by what Bush has done to the economy, to the Constitution and to the very existence of this country that they are willing to close their eyes and pull down the democratic lever for the first time in their lives.

Those are the people that Clark will have a shot at bringing into the Democratic camp, if only for that one moment when they cast their vote, and nobody else on the Democratic side can even claim to have a chance at doing that.

Clark is running against the Bush record, not Saddam Hussein. There is a big hole in downtown manhattan that is Bush's legacy to the world and we aren't going to let anyone forget it.

[5thGenDemocrat]

71. Bang dead solid-on, mikehiggins

Fuckin' Ay. I want Clark and don't intend to settle for less.
John
I'll vote for Dean if I have to, but I just don't like him. It's a visceral thing -- I just don't. I'm sure he's an okay guy personally and I wouldn't talk half the shit to his face about him as I talk here at DU, but I don't want to have to vote for him.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

3. "Dean hatred is crowding out Bush hatred in my mental space"

yikes. Dean's not THAT bad.

[bigtree]

7. naw

your right. I've got to learn to like this guy.

I've never voted republican, I'm 43. I never will. I voted independent once: Anderson; legalisation of pot. Never again.

Democrats rule!

[liberalnurse]

11. So, what are you going to do

when Dean gets the Democratic Nomination?

You can deny it to yourself.....but the only one big enough and bad enough to take on *bush is Dean.

Will you back the party?

[bigtree]

20. vote for him, defend (almost) his every word

i'm a Kerrybot, though.

[liberalnurse]

27. I appreciate your professionalism.

There is absolutely no reason to attack any democrat...including the leader. We are suppose to be under the same Primary Goal. Eating each other, is not the goal.

[blm]

57. that's the position I dread come 2004...

defending Dean from his own big mouth. I am no fan of shoot from the lip types, or deceptive talkers.

It will be a difficult task.

[bigtree]

59. Tell the truth but tell it slant

Tell the truth but tell it slant,
Success in circuit lies,
Too bright for our infirm delight
The truth's superb surprise,

As lightning to the children eased
With explanation kind,
The truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind.

-Emily Dickinson

[Hep]

17. Sure he is

Don't let your guard down now.

[Hep]

4. Thanks for the awarning!

If we're inspiring these feelings from John Chait, we're doing just fine.

[quinnox]

5. Interesting piece

I agree with a lot of what the writer says, but I don't feel the same level of intensity about Dean. I dislike him, but Dean isn't important enough to me to hate.

[demnan]

6. Poop!

[liberalnurse]

14. These guys are delusional......

It's a pitty fellow democrats can't unite behind the real our democratic leader. We really need to stand united.


This behavior makes *bush smile......

[Hep]

16. Let them have their fun

It's gonna suck when they have to vote Dean next November, so let them blow their hateful little wads here for a while I guess.

[MidwestMomma]

67. This 'can't wait til all you Dean haters' have to vote for him attitude

Is a real turn off. If this attitude is representative of the Dean campaign (which I do not know) I believe it shows a lack of foresight and planning for his campaign. If Dean and his supporters have no interest in making an attempt to 'sell' their candidate to long-time Democrats who, believe it or not, do not like Dean as the candidate, how will they 'sell' him to the general public?

Nobody 'has' to vote for Dean. If he is the candidate, I will vote for him. But if Dean supporters continue to make such statements implying their 'glee' when the 'Dean haters' HAVE to vote for him, I fear some not as tolerant of me will be truly turned off.

Also, it would be better to quit assuming that everyone who does not support Dean, hates him. Also, it's wrong to assume that anyone that does not like Dean for the candidate only does so because they religiously support another candidate. I haven't made a commitment to any candidate but I can say I don't support Dean. That's my decision.

Now wouldn't it be better sit down and try to figure out why a lifetime Democrat wouldn't support your candidate and maybe formulate a strategy for winning my support?

Or is it as some imply on this board...you either with Dean or against him and my opinion just doesn't matter? What I'm trying to say is that it should matter.

It's been some interesting months on this board. I love to see so many people so passionately involved in the process. I don't get involved in many discussions because I have limited time and usually only have time to read the threads. Thanks to all for your input...

[bearfartinthewoods]

79. you gonna hold a gun to their heads?

all these people and the millions more who don't post here and don't buy ABB?

you have a candidate that raises the hair on the back of people's necks. a man who evokes the "used car salesman" image. someone who obviously can't keep his story straight.

just what "force" will cause them to "have to vote" next november?

[mikehiggins]

44. Dean is not my leader

I will support him if he gets the nomination, donate to him, work for him, vote for him.

He'll never be anything to me but the guy who beat Bush, if he does.

And if he does, I hope you'll forgive my snickers when he turns out to be nothing like the guy most of you are supporting.

Dean is a professional politician.

Politicians are liars by profession.

Therefore...

[5thGenDemocrat]

60. Dean is not my leader, either

I do not support him now and will not support him if he is the nominee. I will vote for him only with the utmost reluctance and that only because Dopey is marginally worse than Doc Dodger.
Let the Deanies sing hosannas and praise Dean's almighty name if they want to. I don't like the guy, I don't trust the guy, I don't believe a word that issues forth from his lips and I have no intention of doing anything to help him -- save for bashing the Chimp wherever possible and casting my one lousy vote for Dean in November.
John
Deanies, as we all know, Have The Power. I sincerely suggest they use it to get their guy elected, because, if Dean gets the nod, I'll be sitting the election season out.

[DemBones DemBones]

70. Amen to all you said! n/t

[bearfartinthewoods]

78. poop, which i finally figured out means

Please Offer Only Praise ...a sentiment which will sink us all.

my reply:

BARF

Begging All to Re-evaluate Fanaticism

[RevolutionStartsNow]

8. I've seen much worse here on DU

:)

[liberalnurse]

35. And it's so abusive.....

dysfunctional and self-defeating.......

[Hep]

40. Yet they have so much fun

doing it.

[eileen_d]

10. Ha - there's an anti-Deanophobe blog too

http://www.chait-o-phobe.blogspot.com/

When a blog falls in the Internet, does it make a sound?

[bigtree]

13. haaa!

good one!

[liberalnurse]

23. Tell me....is this the same format the

Rove and company drool over? Maybe even they created it or paid some one to do so.

They fear Dean soo much....more than they ever did Clintons....

[eileen_d]

25. This is a blog that critiques the anti-Dean blog

It's done on Blogspot, which I believe is certified 99.9% Rove-Free by the National Rove Growers Association.

"devoted to debunking the foolishness at the Dean-o-phobe blog"

http://www.chait-o-phobe.blogspot.com/

[zmannxx]

12. Wesley Clark

I'm convinced the only way we are going to get the white house back is to get GEN Wesley Clark the Demoratic Nomination. I would put a 4 star General Rhode scholar against Bush anyday. Its a nobrainer.

[Cheswick2.0]

19. don't kid yourself

They would just as willingly rip Clark to shreads.

[Jack_Dawson]

22. The Clark Administration said...

Nice ring, eh?

[robbedvoter]

28. And it looked so real during that press briefing the other day

Talk about being the change you want to see in the world!

[TLM]

31. Gore was very smart as well and unlike CLark

Gore had 8 years exp in the white house and he still got taken to the woodshed by W.

We are not going to win by running someone based on the hope they will be hard to attack.

Clark has no experience in campaigns... he has no experience vs. Bush because only 2 years ago he was on Bush's side. And the capture of saddam just took away Clarks only real advantage over Bush.

Clark is a sure loser now.

[robbedvoter]

43. Aren't you supposed to like Gore now? Isn't *D an outsider?

I can't keep up with all the shifts, but I will hold you to your predictions. (I wish I wrote down some such predictions in the first 50 votes of the DU i straw poll.

[HFishbine]

54. *

* President.

[mikehiggins]

45. Again, I refer you to post 44 n/t

[newyawker99]

46. Hi zmannxx!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[in_cog_ni_to]

58. Welcome to DU, zmannxx!

:hi:

[Cheswick2.0]

15. In other news ............. right wing nut case and anti Dean DUers

sound amazingly consistant with each other.

Obviously Dean is a strong chalenger or this guy wouldn't bother. Also obviously some people here at DU would rather see bush win than be rational about Dean. It must suck to be so attached to another candidate you can't see the positives in this for the whole party. They hate and fear Dean already? Do you think this nut would say anything nicer about Clark or Kerry?


PS.. I am not refering to the original poster, I am refering to some of the others who seem to be extremely bitter and irrational at this point. One day some of us are going to be voting for someone elses candidate. I have a feeling it will be either Clark or Dean or if we don't straighten the hell up...Joe Lieberman.

[blm]

29. Jonathan Chait is a liberal journalist, Cheswick.

btw...you, yourself, weren't so sold on Dean because of your own discomfort with him not too long ago. Some people haven't shook that discomfort because Gore endorsed him.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

32. Yeah. It must suck to be so attached to your candidate

that you can't see why others don't like yours.

[ibegurpard]

48. Actually Cheswick has been undecided until recently

And I'm really not sure you should be accusing anyone of irrational attachment to a certain candidate.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

49. Two false assumptions on your part:

That I am "attached" to my candidate, and that it is irrational.
I can assure you a lot of thinking went into my choosing Kerry, and I am more than happy to switch to Clark or Edwards or even Gephardt.
And I (and many others) have very good reasons to not want Dean to be the nominee.

[ibegurpard]

56. And yet you have the gall to assume others didn't put just as much

thought into it? Even going so far as to accuse someone who has been, until recently, neutral about candidates as being irrationally attached? Pretty arrogant if you ask me. If you don't like it then don't do it.

[5thGenDemocrat]

74. Point is, I'd vote for any of about seven Dem candidates for Prez

In the primaries, and not one of them is named "Dean."
I refuse to vote for another Dukakis unless I'm forced to next November (and don't even try to make a comment about "forced," because I know damned good and well I'm not "forced" to vote anything but ABB). It would be everything I could (but, reluctantly, will) do to vote Dean instead of third-party next year.
I think Dean is a draft-dodging slug who will lose us at least 42 states in the general election. He'll only be the nominee if the Dems, as a group, are self-destructive enough to vote for him. I hope we won't be.
John
But we probably will be.

[bigtree]

38. "Do you think this nut would say anything nicer about Clark or Kerry?"

naw. The writer's definitely cynical. I get that way sometimes. Hard to tell what his motivation is though, like posters on this board. Can't read minds.

This is primary season. The party will look more unified down the road. I remember the push for Ted Kennedy at one convention. That must have been hard on his supporters to see him bow out. Was he a disruption? Sure. Was his campaign worth the trouble? Probably? My point? I forget.

[robbedvoter]

24. I am only intense about W. However the bully/thin skin of *D

and his supporters irritate me enough to have some empathy with Chait. Add to that the press coronation and biased reporting - and I think I'll enjoy reading that.
As to the other question - what will I do if?...I intend to have my candidate nominated - just as I had him drafted, Then I'll have him elected and inaugurated. That's the plan.

[rucky]

33. The Writer Basically Admits He's Irrational

Not a Dean hit piece at all.

[robbedvoter]

39. Coming from people excusing lying, insulting welfare people, raising taxes

destroying CFR, sealing records, pandering to good ole boys, giving shelters to Enron - it's a powerful statement! Whatever the preambul, Chait deals in facts. As for political inclination, I think he is an Edwards supporter.

[Egnever]

42. Pretty funny article

no redeeming value but worth a chuckle.

I am constantly amazed by the amount of people that think bush will be able to beat any of our candiudates forget the guy with more organization on the ground than anyone.

Admitedly I am biased cause I think Dean is the best guy to do it, but I dont doubt the ability of any of our candidates except maybe sharpton.

Bush is the biggest pile of walking garbage ever to hold the opffice of president and despite the rah rah in the press theres a ton of people out there who know it. I live in Las Vegas Nevada a State thats either up for grabs or in pub hands depending on who is guessing that day. I wear a Bush is an idiot Button on my jacket and every day I get several I love your button comments. Every single day! There is more hatred out there for this man than any president I have been alive for. I am 38.

Bush is going to lose. He is going to lose badly. Even if Iraq becomes the garden of eden. Even if the stock market hits 15000. He is going to lose. The man has been caught with his pants down tooo many times people no longer trust him. They will vote him out given the chance. His path of destruction is too wide he has gutted this country in too many different areas. No matter who you are he has screwed one of your soft spots. Be it fiscal, disiplin, environment, world afairs, Trade, you name it.

Cute post but no sorry I dont buy into the bush will beat anyone argument. The guys a crook even peggy noonan knows it :p

[KittyWampus]

51. Chait Presents FACTS- Dean & Trippi's Own WORDS & RECORDs

he pointed rather directly to the inconsistency between what they say at various times...

Cognitive Dissonance must drain one heck of alot of energy from Dean supporters...

[Egnever]

65. Well he certainly presents snipets

Guess you could call em facts if you want to. Ive seen the full quotes and context of all of this stuff and theres not a slam in there that holds up.

You are free to buy into this stuff if you like. It's no skin off my back and seems to make you feel beter, So feel free to continue going along without questioning all of this spin.

Its easy to play this game with any one of our candidates. I think you are letting your partisanship get the better of you if you actually believe this stuff.

[bearfartinthewoods]

80. and how do we compell rove to give the context instead of the snippets?

[AP]

72. What Dean does is way beyond cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive dissonance is something you have to think about a little bit before you realize it doesn't make sense. My reaction to Dean's words vs actions is usually way more instantaneous.

[Zomby Woof]

52. great piece!

This is something that resonated with me:

And, yes, I'm continuously dumbfounded that a number of highly intelligent people I know have convinced themselves that his nomination is a good thing,

Proof positive even smart people can be hoodwinked.

[blm]

53. Exactly where I am.

Chait really echoes everything I have felt and seen regarding Dean since early this year. Back when he was polling low. He coopted Nader's 2000 rhetoric against Dems without having Nader's record to back it up.

[bearfartinthewoods]

81. not to mention "the democratic wing of the democratic party"

i wanted Paul to rise from his grave and smite dean where he stood.
that a centerist govenor could co-opt that phrase...that's when i started getting angry.

[mzmolly]

64. Can we post flame bait now if we pre-curser with the word "warning"?

innnnnnnn-teresting. I'm glad to know that :hi:

[bigtree]

66. probably guilty

Maybe I should have just posted the link. The poop on the lawn and the boyfriend lines hit a nerve. Kinda funny too. But if it's any consolation, I agree with the writer's ambivalence towards a Dean nomination and I share his view that we will have to come together at some point down the road.

Got any Kerry darts?

[Moderator]

82. Locking............

This is inflammatory.


DU Moderator