Next Kerry-Vietnam liefest from a moonie hitman, Carlton Sherwood.

[blm]

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40191
 
A Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist and highly decorated Vietnam veteran is behind a new television documentary that features devastating testimony by former POWs of the demoralizing impact of John Kerry's war-crimes accusations more than 30 years ago.

As WorldNetDaily first reported, the film will be released in September on the heels of a television ad by Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth, which charges Kerry with betrayal for accusing them of war atrocities during his testimony to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971.

But producer Carlton Sherwood says his Red, White and Blue Productions was planning the documentary even before the first ad by the swiftboat vets.

>>>>

In a March 12 story by Fox News, Sherwood was noted as being among the veterans who consider Kerry's 1971 testimony slanderous and concocted to push a political agenda.

"He knew as an officer that those were lies. It never happened," said Sherwood. "He was principally responsible for cementing the image of Vietnam veterans as drugged-out psychopaths who were totally unrestrained and who were a murderous hoard."

...

Sherwood won a Pulitzer Prize for his investigative reporting of a Catholic scandal involving the Pauline Fathers of Doylestown, Pa. He also is known for his inside investigation of Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church. Sherwood said he entered the probe hoping to uncover dirt about the leader but ended up concluding Moon and his followers "were and continued to be the victims of the worst kind of religious prejudice and racial bigotry this country has witnessed in over a century."

____________

see page two here: From Rory O'Connor's Frontline in 1992.

http://www.mediachannel.org/originals/moontranscript.shtml

Narrator: Is the New Birth Project continuing? In June,1991, Inquisition, a new, purportedly independent investigation of Moon's 1982 tax fraud prosecution, was released by a Washington publisher, Regnery-Gateway. Its author, Carlton Sherwood, is a Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative reporter who once worked for the Washington Times.

Narrator: Inquisition has a curious history. It was printed once before, by an obscure publishing house called Andromeda. The phone number listed for Andromeda in a leading publishing directory is the home phone of former Reagan National Security Council official Roger Fontaine — an ex-reporter at the Washington Times. When we called, Fontaine's wife Judy answered and said she knew nothing about Andromeda. Then she told us that the company was bankrupt and that Inquisition was published by Regnery-Gateway.

Narrator: Alfred Regnery is the head of Regnery-Gateway.

Regnery: "It is not unlike a lot of other books we have published. It is a story that deals with the First Amendment, which is something that is very dear to publishers, of course."

Narrator: Alfred Regnery was told by Carlton Sherwood that the Moon Organization would purchase one hundred thousand copies of Inquisition — at least according to former Washington Times editor James Whelan, another Regnery-Gateway author. But Alfred Regnery denies it.

Regnery: "I never said that to Jim, and I've never had any conversation with what's his name-Bo?"

Narrator: "Bo Hi Pak."

Regnery: "I'm not even sure who he is."

Narrator: One week after talking to Regnery, FRONTLINE obtained a copy of a letter addressed to Sun Myung Moon. The letter was written by James Gavin, a Moon aide. Gavin tells Moon he reviewed the "overall tone and factual contents" of Inquisition before publication and suggested revisions. Gavin adds that the author "Mr. Sherwood has assured me that all this will be done when the manuscript is sent to the publisher." Gavin concludes by telling Moon, "When all of our suggestions have been incorporated, the book will be complete and in my opinion will make a significant impact.... In addition to silencing our critics now, the book should be invaluable in persuading others of our legitimacy for many years to come."

Narrator: Although he refused an on-camera interview, Carlton Sherwood told Frontline that the Unification Movement exerted no editorial control over his book.

Narrator: When we visited Gavin's office in McLean, Virginia, our request for an interview was refused.

Narrator: Many questions about the Unification Movement remain unanswered. But none is more pressing — or perplexing — than this: Where does all the money come from? The Moon Organization has spent an astonishing amount in the United States:

____

[bobthedrummer]

1. Regnery again too. "Make no mistake about Jungle-face Jake..."

:freak:

[seabeyond]

2. then maybe we should have a history lesson on vietnam

adn the country knew battle was lost in 71, and how many lives died knowing we werent going to win, and what a waste that is. and really turn this around for the vets so they could see the people protesting was for them, not against them, just like the soldiers over in iraq today, need us the people to stand up for them, and say their life is more important to us than an inability to say, we fucked up once again

head on. if we know this is happening, head on. that is how kerry fought in vietnam, what so many said about him consistantly

[krkaufman]

8. Yep, and Cronkite declared it "unwinnable" in 1968

Yet Kerry requested duty in the more dangerous Swift Boats *AFTER* the Tet Offensive

Keeping it simple, here's some highlights from the timeline...

February 18, 1966 -- Kerry formally enlists in the Navy

June 8, 1967 -- Kerry completes training and reports to USS Gridley

January 29-30, 1968 -- Tet Offensive

February 9, 1968 -- Kerry's boat departs for service in the Western Pacific, supporting the Vietnam war

February 10, 1968 -- Kerry requests service on Swift Boats, in Vietnam

February 27, 1968 -- Cronkite declares the war "unwinnable"

November 17, 1968 -- Kerry completes training and reports for Swift Boat duty

Early April, 1969 -- John Kerry leaves Vietnam

May 4, 1970 -- Kent State Massacre

April 22, 1971 -- John Kerry testifies before Congress, on behalf of veterans

April 30, 1975 -- Last US helicopter leaves US embassy in Saigon; Saigon surrenders

[A_Possum]

3. OK, all you "Kerry should pre-empt first" folks....

Give us some hard-hitting, dramatic ideas for getting out in front of these slurs?

I keep hearing how Kerry is supposed to be on offensive against this kind of thing, and wah-wah-wah about how he's behind the curve.

You're heading up Kerry's campaign, let's hear what you'll do?

[seabeyond]

6. truth and history and facts and documentation are on kerry's side

with vietnam. kerry being there has the right to come back and say something, not those that didnt participate, but he was there. and war was lost, and it was wated lives and kerrys words were pinning it on winter meeting and against admin not the soldiers.

he needs a 60 minute interview, and he needs to talk about how he felt and what he thought when he came back from nam, and why he was at the protests adn revelations and what he learned in them

they are also mad at him because in 90's he went over to normalize relations with vietnam. another thing he needs to talk, and yes there are some that are mad, he understands, but his goal was to save lives

[seabeyond]

7. and when they yell, he always uses his record, what about

what is important to the country. cause they keep attacking him in this and he cannot just not say anything. these poeple are so bad, knew this was going to be center on attacking him. he has to get ahead of the story,..............

it cannot be that someone who is a vet cannot run because they are not allowed to glorify themselves and talk about experience, they have to be quiet and humble, with continual assault and attack on reputation.

this just cannot be ok

[KittyWampus]

18. One Word. WHISTLEBLOWER. Kerry Was One Of Many Americans

who have courageously stood up and shone a light on the misconduct of the leadership in this country.

The politicians who got us into Viet Nam and who had no plan once we were in and allowed the corruption tin the military were who KErry and other activists were speaking out against.

Not fellow troops or the government or the country.

Politicians are NOT synonymous with our country.

Bush is NOT American. His policies are NOT the same as the troops forced to carry them out.

[A_Possum]

4. One idea, anyway...

An pre-emptive ad of POW's for Kerry, talking about how he helped end the war. Of course, this will be countered with screams of "he shouldn't be 'using' the POW's.

BLM, I don't really follow the connection between Moon and Sherwood clearly.

[SaveElmer]

5. WorldNetDaily is owned by Moon

I believe they also own the Washington Times

[Hell Hath No Fury]

19. I think this tells us...

everything we need to know about Mr. Sherwood!

"Sherwood won a Pulitzer Prize for his investigative reporting of a Catholic scandal involving the Pauline Fathers of Doylestown, Pa. He also is known for his inside investigation of Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church. Sherwood said he entered the probe hoping to uncover dirt about the leader but ended up concluding Moon and his followers "were and continued to be the victims of the worst kind of religious prejudice and racial bigotry this country has witnessed in over a century."

What a smelly, gigantic load of horsehit.

[krkaufman]

9. You mean like a 6-year POW like John McCain?

I'd say let the smears come. A majority of Americans know Vietnam was a mistake, and reasonable minds will see Kerry's post-service position as the right one. Aside from that, his later efforts with McCain regarding Vietnam will also come to light.

And then we can compare what Kerry was doing during these years, to what Boosh was doing.

[seabeyond]

11. the majority of people have empathy for vets

A majority of Americans know Vietnam was a mistake

they may feel vietnam was a mistake but vets feeling override this and they need a strong reminder it was to save lives and not hurt the vets feelings

[KittyWampus]

16. Did Abu Ghraib Whistleblower Joe Darby "Hurt The Troops Feelings"?

or did his exposure of the torturing that was going on in Iraq help stop it.

The Iraqis knew what was going on in those prisons. The American people did not.

So, IMO, the Kerry campaign and its surrogates HAVE to use the word "whistleblower".

And interweave Kerry's speaking out with other brave souls like Rowley at the FBI.

Was she "anti- American or anti-FBI? Should she be less proud because she spoke out about the higher ups refusing to investigate terrorism lead?e

[seabeyond]

22. well lets take what happened witht he presentation of pictures

the whistle blower. many many people thought it a betrayal to our troops showing these pictures, that those in iraq being tortured werent imprtant enough to protect in telling the story as it was keeping quiet so soldiers wouldnt be more at risk

this is the difference between black and white, and grey thinker. the micro as opposed to the macro. a group will think kerry hurt the vets, cause they havent allowed their mind to wrap around the possibility that he was helping them.

maybe if this is said clearly and loud enough, second to helping kerry, but firstly maybe it can allow some vets to let this go. reality americans, the protestors, we treated and blamed the soldiers when they came back. i was way young but i remember the negative i felt from others with soldier. there was a shame. they blame kerry and protestors for the feel

maybe we need to admit to them, yes we blamed you adn that was our bad. we understand much better now. and they wont go around thinking they have to prove people were bad to them, they can leet that go. and we are sorry. but further, kerrys purpose was to save lives

[KittyWampus]

31. Iraqis Knew. US Citizens Didn't. Torturing Iraqis Endangers Our Troops.

speaking out against that practise helped end it.

I am not disagreeing with you at all... In fact, you've made a great point.

Back in the 60=70's the Left and Anti-War crowd in America hadn't figured out that the troops werern't responsible for the corrupt leadership and failed policies.

Now we know that this has to trumpeted at every turn.

That's just one reason I loved Wes Clark. :)

[seabeyond]

33. i repeated self, lol lol

tell ya, just knew this vietnam thing coming up was about more than this election. just important for it to be placed in history in a more healing way than we did in the past, being quiet to rpotect the wounds. doesnt work. here is evidence 35 years later

[A_Possum]

23. Good point

One, are the POW's in this film going to claim they would have been home sooner if Kerry hadn't tried to end the war?

Two, Kerry was urging in his Congressional testimony for Nixon to SET A DATE for a cease-fire, instead of stalling around claiming the war had to go on in order to negotiate to get the POW's back.

**********

Kerry's Congressional Testimony, 1971

Mr. Kerry: ...But I would like to say, in answering that, that I do not believe it is necessary to stall any longer. I have been to Paris. I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks, that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the Provisional Revolutionary Government and of all eight of Madam Binh's points it has been stated time and time again, and was stated by Senator Vance Hartke when he returned from Paris, and it has been stated by many other officials of this Government, if the United States were to set a date for withdrawal the prisoners of war would be returned.

I think this negates very clearly the argument of the President that we have to maintain a presence in Vietnam, to use as a negotiating block for the return of those prisoners. The setting of a date will accomplish that.

[blm]

10. Sherwood allegedly started to write a piece on Moon and came away

believing Moon was unfairly slandered; the worst bias in recent religious history, according to Sherwood. However, it is quite doubtful Sherwood ever intended an expose, because all of Moon and Sherwood's allies are the same rightwingnuts and influence pushers. He was most certainly carrying water for Moon.

[buycitgo]

12. some choice Moon quotes

speech to the WashTimes:

"God wants a love partner, centering on the place where husband and wife become one through their sexual organs, God wants to appear and meet us...I wish you would center on the absolute sexual organ, unique sexual organ, unchanging sexual organ and eternal sexual organ and use this as your foundation to pursue God...We have to realize that the Kingdom of God on earth and in heaven will begin on this foundation.

....."Christians entrap us, crying heresy because our doctrines differ and they try to destroy us, but in this case, the so-called heretical cult is on the side of truth.

.......

"Rev. Moon is the first person to provide the answers because Rev. Moon is the only one who knows all the secrets of God. You have to realize that Rev. Moon overcame death hundreds of times in order to find this path. Rev. Moon is the person who brought God to tears hundreds of times. No one in history has loved God more than the Rev. Moon has. That is why even if the world tries to destroy me, the Rev. Moon will never perish. It is because God protects me. If you step into the realm of truth Rev. Moon teaches, you will also gain God's protection."

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:WAXOZRji3s4J:watch.pair.com/moon.html+cnp+speeches&hl=en

[buycitgo]

13. GHWB on Moon:

"I want to salute Reverend Moon, who is the founder of The Washington Times and also of Tiempos del Mundo," Bush declared. "A lot of my friends in South America don't know about The Washington Times, but it is an independent voice. The editors of The Washington Times tell me that never once has the man with the vision interfered with the running of the paper, a paper that in my view brings sanity to Washington, D.C. I am convinced that Tiempos del Mundo is going to do the same thing" in Latin America.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/moon1.html

[Julien Sorel]

14. OK! Now it's time for all the brilliant DU armchair strategists

to come up with their strategy for defusing this before it comes out! It's so fucking easy, and Kerry is such a weak candidate because he won't crush these smears by saying or doing "________" Well? Fill in the blanks! Let's see it! Out with it! Say it! Say it! Say it! It's your golden opportunity to be a hero, so step up to the plate!


"Say it!!!!!"

[creeksneakers2]

40. Arm chair strategist wants to meet Fascism head on.

We have had this issue with us for decades. Should we set aside our democratic freedoms when criticizing the government might help our enemies? I say we shouldn't let fear of our enemies cause us to become like them. America's strength comes from the never ending questions asked by its citizens . Those who question our government should never be called traitors.

The idea of sacrificing freedom out of fear of enemies is the permanent excuse of Fascism. We always state that if the citizens of the countries we oppose were only allowed to speak out, there would be no conflict.

We came across the speaking out versus helping our enemies issue before the war in Iraq. Those who questioned whether there were really WMD, or whether Iraq had links to terrorism, or whether Iraqis would welcome our troops with flowers were called traitors and friends of Saddam. Now we know that those were good questions. Newspapers have apologized for not standing up to those who called questioners traitors. Newspapers should stand up now to the right wingers who are calling John Kerry a traitor.

The same people who took us to war now say that anyone who supported the decision to go to war is equally responsible, including John Kerry. The hawks say those who supported them have no right to question past decisions. I've asked right wingers, "How can you hold people accountable for agreeing with you when you did everything possible to destroy those who didn't?" The answer I get is, "They could have stood up to us. If they didn't its because they are weak. They deserve to be controlled." I say its time we stand up to the Fascists.

George Bush must also take the responsibility of standing up to Fascism. He must answer whether the soldier who came forward about the abuse at Abu Graib was a traitor. Does Bush have the courage to tell his base that they were wrong to call Americans who questioned the war in Iraq traitors? Saying that would cause a revolt among the right wing. If Bush says anybody who questioned the war was a traitor, Bush will be shown to be a Fascist. Bush should be asked whether John Kerry should have been silent in the face of massive evidence of American atrocities.

John Kerry didn't make the North Vietnamese torture prisoners. The North Vietnamese did that because there was nobody to speak out in their country about atrocities. John Kerry didn't prolong the war. Nixon said in 1969 that the war would be gradually turned over to the South Vietnamese government. Everyone knew this was a lie at the time. After 1969, the war was just a deadly charade to keep up the lie Nixon told America. In 1972 Nixon privately admitted that the South Vietnamese would never be able to sustain power. How can Kerry be a traitor when he pointed out Nixon's lies?

[seabeyond]

42. damn good and by the way, bushie was one to say unpatriot if

anyone questioned him, as was cheney or condi or rummy

so they have already decided on fascistism. by the way bush quote, dictatorship would be a lot easier

excellent what you wrote, so relevent to today. repeating history, here for us to see and learn adn stop and nto go thru again

[Julien Sorel]

15. Dupe

[A_Possum]

17. Hmmm, my feeling is that the Moon connection will be trumped by...

"Pulitzer-Prize winning reporter."

I don't think that angle will undermine the "Kerry was a traitor" line.

I do think maybe the 60 Minutes thing is a good idea. (Seems like I've heard talk of something about this) AS LONG AS Kerry does NOT apologize to ANYBODY for what he did in protesting the war.

His point was to BRING THE POW'S HOME sooner, and so even if they suffered a some "demoralization," maybe that was all to their good in the end. If the supporters of the war had had their way, those guys might still be over there.

************

Kerry, the Congressional Record, 1971:

"Mr. Kerry: Well, Senator, frankly it does not appeal to me if American men have to continue to die when they don't have to, particularly when it seems the Government of this country is more concerned with the legality of where men sleep than it is with the legality of where they drop bombs. (Applause.)...

...But at the present moment that is not going to happen, so we are talking about men continuing to die for nothing and I think there is a tremendous moral question here which the Congress of the United States is ignoring...

...But I think if we can talk in this legislative body about filibustering for porkbarrel programs, then we should start now to talk about filibustering for the saving of lives and of our country. (Applause.)

And this, Mr. Chairman, is what we are trying to convey."

[dogtag]

25. Three things need to be pounded

Whistleblower

Three friggen YEARS in the Navy, not 4 months

STOP THE WAR NOW - 300 dead per week. Time was of the essence.

[A_Possum]

26. "Time was of the essence"

OHHH, that's good. I like that. 300 dead per week.

Excellent. Against the POW's saying they were "demoralized," we have the desperate (and it WAS a desperate and heartfelt) attempt to stem the deaths of 300 American boys a week.

[dogtag]

28. Did anyone save the link

to the POW who said that the claim that POWs were harmed by Kerry's testimony was bogus? He never heard a damn thing about Kerry or anything else when he was in prison. I can't remember if he was the guy in Telluride, but he was one of the LTTE writers, I believe. He should be featured in an ad.

I had a STOP THE WAR NOW sticker on my car back then and I well remember the 'body counts' on the nightly news. On a purely selfish note, the war was really messing up my own good times. It was pretty hard to party. I'm finding it hard now, too. Doesn't seem to bother BushCo one little bit.

[seabeyond]

30. harmed by Kerry's testimony was bogus?

yes, i forgot about him. this was only around for not long, not even a day and never got to mainstream media

[dogtag]

34. we're forgetting the obvious

beause the Viet Nam era folks probably know the truth, they just don't want to see it. BUT, those who don't know much about it, think that Grenada was a "war" and may be shocked to learn the real stats about Viet Nam. The word "War" has be basterized beyond belief to mean just about anything. A lot of people are watching the smear ads in a complete vacuum. Some basic facts preceeding the information would be a great idea.

Eanmple:

LONGEST WAR IN US HISTORY!

[Sparkly]

20. Remember what the Chimp himself said about Abu Ghraib...

Chimpy said the great thing about the investigation of the Abu Ghraib tortures is that in democracy, we're open about it, we immediately look into it publicly, yadda yadda yadda.

So why is it different when we're talking about a war from 35 years ago? We know My Lai and Tiger Force existed. We know there were free fire zones, we know the soldiers and sailors were put in positions where it was hard to know who was the enemy and who wasn't, and the other side didn't follow predictable rules of engagement.

Does anybody think the POWs would have been treated kindly if there hadn't been anti-war protests at home? Does anybody think the VC would have been nice if John Kerry hadn't testified? Does anybody believe they never heard anything about My Lai or Tiger Force, never heard anything about the actions of US soldiers from their own side, but only heard about this when Kerry testified? They needed US newspapers to know what was going on right under their noses?

I can believe they used the anti-war efforts at home to try to demoralize their prisoners, to say in effect, "ha ha, you're here for no reason, you have no support." But VVAW and other anti-war groups WERE supporting soldiers, and may well have saved lives by pushing withdrawal. And silencing the truth about what was happening would not have helped end the war.

[Sparkly]

27. Quotes from the Chimp on being open about atrocities

"It's also important for the people of Iraq to know that in a democracy, everything is not perfect, that mistakes are made. But in a democracy, as well, those mistakes will be investigated and people will be brought to justice. We're an open society. We're a society that is willing to investigate, fully investigate in this case, what took place in that prison."

(snip)

"And we want to know the truth. I talked to the Secretary of Defense this morning, by the way. I said, find the truth, and then tell the Iraqi people and the world the truth. We have nothing to hide. We believe in transparency, because we're a free society. That's what free societies do. They -- if there's a problem, they address those problems in a forthright, up-front manner. And that's what's taking place."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040505-5.html

[Chili]

21. how about starting with Kerry himself?

...air his 1971 testimony, which clearly, clearly, beyond a shadow of a doubt, shows what his feelings were about his fellow veterans, and those still trapped fighting in VietNam. Only the most brainwashed stubborn Bush supporter could twist his words into anything other than what he meant. I saw the testimony on CSPAN for the first time last week, and it was moving beyond words. Has it ever been shown in primetime, on any network, cable or otherwise? I think demanding that it be aired at least twice between now and November might do a lot in clearing this shit up. I'm so freakin' tired of these smears I could spit drill bits.

[A_Possum]

24. AGREED!!!

How about an ad--or even a series of ads--that shows his testimony in a true light? To come out when?

Just before, or during the release of this new smearvet ad/movie thing?

Honest question, which is "pre-emptive?"

[seabeyond]

29. i always say before. the one they hear the first

leaves the greatest impression. once someone has settled confortably in htought, much harder to shift that thought. they will fight and claw to keep the view the settled on

[Chili]

32. yep, he might have to do that

...and it's a shame, isn't it? But it would settle this crap once and for all. And honest people will know the difference between what that young man was trying to do and the lies these people are putting out now.

[dogtag]

36. Maybe we could

get Michael Moore to put it out as a "new" documentary. That way the media would have to cover it!!!!

I watched it on C-SPAN last week and thought the same as you, Chili. You would literally have to be brain dead not to get it.

NOTHING has upset me as much as these "swiftsmears" in a long, long time.

[Sparkly]

35. "Where are the leaders?" Another point...

Senator Pell: Wouldn't you agree with me though that what he did in herding old men, women and children into a trench and then shooting them was a little bit beyond the perimeter of even what has been going on in this war and that that action should be discouraged. There are other actions not that extreme that have gone on and have been permitted. If we had not taken action or cognizance of it, it would have been even worse. It would have indicated we encouraged this kind of action.

Mr. Kerry: My feeling, Senator, on Lieutenant Calley is what he did quite obviously was a horrible, horrible, horrible thing and I have no bone to pick with the fact that he was prosecuted. But I think that in this question you have to separate guilt from responsibility, and I think clearly the responsibility for what has happened there lies elsewhere.

In other words, what Kerry said wasn't exactly "news." And the whole point was to demand responsibility from the leaders, not to decry other soldiers, sailors or veterans.

http://www.nationalreview.com/document/kerry200404231047.asp

[Chili]

oddball revelation...

...that's kinda off-topic, but... suddenly, a line that all the characters in the movie thought was funny in "The Contender" suddenly makes perfect sense: Ohio Democratic Senator Laine Hanson (Joan Allen) says at her confirmation hearing that Bill Clinton, in regards to his impeachment, was not "guilty, but responsible."

NOW I GET IT.

LOL.

[A_Possum]

37. See what you guys think of this...

Great ideas and comments in this thread! I stole a couple and made a stab at an ad idea here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x684264

[seabeyond]

38. i am not thinking commercial, i am thinking more town meeting

with vets, and with protestors adn clarke and kerry and kerrey and cleland and others that can get really into it and the different roles

and not MCCAIN

[Sparkly]

39. Wouldn't that be great?

A wide "band of brothers" (and sisters!) who remember, including members of VVAW. That would be fantastic.

[seabeyond]

41. and have the media cover

ya think they would. not like they ever cover kerry. think this would get them in line

after all kerry and mccain respected by many to normalize in the 90's vietnam, kerry was both a vet and peacenik in the 70's. and now a mission to help heal and resolve 35 years later

[Octafish]

43. Typical neocon puke.

"If you say it enough times, it's true."

Makes for lousy science, too.