Holy Crap: AP Explains Why Swift Boat Accounts Radically Differ

[DrFunkenstein]

Past presidential candidates and their critics have been known to shade the truth for political purposes. But to memory researchers, it doesn't take intentional falsifying to understand the discrepancies in the retelling of Sen. John Kerry's war experiences.

Far from being an indelible recording, human memory is fragile, incomplete, malleable and highly subject to suggestion, researchers have shown in dozens of studies.

Where does this leave Americans trying to evaluate Kerry's war record? Researchers say some memories obviously are true. But they tend to favor the ones expressed soonest afterward, especially when backed by documentation from the time.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&e=5&u=/ap/cvn_fog_of_war

Jesus Christ, you have to read this hunk of crap for yourself. Extra points for anyone who remembers the Geraldo Rivera quote about the "fog of war."

[benddem]

1. anyone who would make statements

like these jerks did after 35 years when there are contemporaneous reports is stupid and a fool. Kerry kept notes that he could read as a refresher. The BDA (battle damage assessments) and after action reports have all proved the not so swifties wrong.
This is just so much reptile b.s.
At my reunion of Vietnam hosp. the stories-changes-fragments and things that were totally erased were incredible.

[roseBudd]

2. Newest memories are the truest

That favors Kerry's account.

SWVfT memories are newest and have been molded by groupthink.

Rosebud

[Spiffarino]

3. That's why I think most are not "lying" per se

But instead have had their memories "refreshed" by liars who hate Kerry for his VVAW work, O'Neill being the principle liar among them.

I think most of the guys have been duped. Classic Rove mindgame with a small set of willing - REPUBLICAN - accomplices.

[roseBudd]

16. Actually blaming their account on groupthink

serves our purposes better.

It was Roy Hoffman being depicted as the Robert Duvall character in Apocalypse Now that set off the chain the most recent animus. People got together and filled in fading memories with false memories. Many people who are currently somewhat believing the SBVfT may be more likely to buy decent people with memories that have been created by exposure to other's memories than the more likely nefarious Rove machine.

Rosebud

[Cocoa]

4. I don't need a psychologist to explain what's going on here

these people are lying.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

6. agreed, it's not that complicated

[spooky3]

17. lying because they want to get even with Kerry for post war

activities or because they have other political objectives.

Even a law school reject would be able to reveal their total lack of credibility in a courtroom.

[King of New Orleans]

5. John O'neil

Got these guys in a room, made sure anyone or any evidence that would make them think otherwise wasn't in that room, Got a small core of guys willing to say Kerry lied, then got the rest of these guys to sign affidavits saying they believed these guys and now as the evidence and eyewitnesses come out, the Al French's and George Eliott's look like complete dupes, utter idiots taken along for a ride. John O'neil really screwed them over good.

[John_H]

7. AP assists w/ GOP Swift Boat endgame

which has always been to call it a draw--Bush may have been AWOL, Kerry may have lied about his medals. The whores knew this was the resolution the GOP wanted all along--and now they're giving it to them.

Sadly, both the GOP and media knew that the dems, after playing a little rope-a-dope judo chess, would take this "deal" to get rid of the issue, and they will. As the media and talking heads reach the conclusion that "memory is imperfect" and we will "never know the truth" no Dem surrogates will say "Swift Liars," no Dems surrogate will push back hard when a Judy, Tweet, and Wolf announce the "conclusion" of the Swift boat controversy.

A new lesson will have been learned by politicians and the media: You can say anything about your opponent and unless you can be proven to be a liar 110%, the worst you will do is a draw.

[arewenotdemo]

12. Excellent point.

[DrFunkenstein]

15. This Was My Exact Point - In The Fog of War Everybody Is Right

Bullshit. These guys are demonstrably lying beyond a reasonable doubt (you can never be 100%, but journalism never said you did).

If the Kerry people don't push this hard (and I've given them plenty of patience), journalists will forever add the caveat that "some people" have questioned Kerry's record.

[rocktivity]

8. You're half right--it's crap!

...But to memory researchers, it doesn't take intentional falsifying to understand the discrepancies in the retelling of Sen. John Kerry's war experiences.

I've got two words for you--"THEY LIED!!!" Or is this the media's way of making excuses for the Smear-Voters making fools of THEM, too?

:headbang:
rocknation

[DrFunkenstein]

14. "Intentional Falsifying" - So Friggin' Scared To Say "Lying"

The dude from Spinsanity was just talking about this on the Daily Show a few days ago.

[snyder]

9. I Don't Think The Article Is As Bad ...

... as others here do. The issue isn't so much the memories themselves but the way in which the Swiftliars and the Bush campaign have used them. Frankly, the story is even more damn in a way. It makes it possible for Kerry's people to fairly accuse Bush of taking advantage of traumatized veterans. That said, my original complaint about Kerry waiting too long to come back at this still stands.

[Democat]

10. If the article doesn't examine people getting paid to lie, it's bullshit

They can make all the excuses they want, but many of these people are on the Bush payroll and they have been paid a lot of money to lie.

That's the bottom line and if this article or any other article leaves out that possibility, then it's just making excuses for these paid liars.

[Bongo Prophet]

11. Coordinated and with a clear hierarchy.

Much like Abu Ghraib, there is a chain of command to the coordination of the Smearboat Lie. From the TOOLS at the bottom who were used to do the wetwork, to the TOP. Smirk and Turd Blossom, fantasizing their twisted psyops Atwater Fu.
Suffering and lies. It more than what they do, it's WHO they ARE. Bleah. Ptui.

[volosong]

13. Eyewitness Reports are the Least Reliable

That is the feeling in law enforcement and in the courts. No better anywhere else.

[Rose Siding]

18. If only we had some sort of data,

recorded in a kind of officially recognized institution that is widely accepted as an accurate representation of historical fact.

...Oh, WAIT! We Do.

[DrFunkenstein]

19. You Guys Lose - Here's The Geraldo Story (Hilarious!)

During one satellite dispatch, Geraldo frantically ducked for cover, claiming a bullet had narrowly missed his noggin. Viewers were left to wonder whether it had been fired by an al Qaeda sniper or a disgruntled member of Geraldo's own crew.

In another memorable segment, our daring correspondent lithely descended a cave to hunt for signs of bin Laden, a search that die-hard Geraldo fans hoped would end at Al Capone's vault.

So far, though, the highlight of his Afghan adventure was an emotional report from the ``hallowed ground'' where three U.S. soldiers accidentally had been killed by an errant American bomb.

Reported Geraldo: ``It was just, the whole place, just fried really, and bits of uniforms and tattered clothing everywhere. I said the Lord's prayer and really choked up.''

One tiny problem: Geraldo wasn't anywhere near the site of the fatal bombing. He transmitted his story from Tora Bora, hundreds of miles from Kandahar, where the friendly-fire tragedy occurred.

This rather humongous factual error was pointed out in a critical article by David Folkenflik, the television writer for The Baltimore Sun.

In response, Geraldo blamed ``the fog of war.'' He said he had ``confused'' two separate incidents and actually had been at the scene where two or three Afghan fighters -- not the American troops -- had been killed.

Unfortunately, that version of the story hasn't held up well, either. The Pentagon told Folkenflik that the friendly-fire deaths at Tora Bora occurred three days after Geraldo filed his initial report.

Wrote Folkenflik: ``Fox News did not have any explantation for how Rivera could have been confused by an event that had not yet occurred.''

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1230-05.htm