Regarding Dean and Clark

[Tom Rinaldo]

A simple formular just came to mind. I think supporters of both men can recognize simularities in each other's campaigns. And though the rivalry is naturally intense, I think actual animosity is fairly minimal. Both of the candidates of course must do what they must do to defeat the other, but for the most part it doesn't get really ugly between them.

I think the backers of both men have shown both passion and committment, and though all of us will be deeply disappointed if our chosen man doesn't win, the vast majority of us will get over it and pitch in to beat Bush. It would be even harder to sit back and do nothing next Fall than it would be to swallow our bruised pride and merge with the other "camp".

All well and good so far, so to stir it up as always, here is the provocative part. I really really do think that it will be easier for Dean to deliver most of his core supporters to Clark than it will be for Clark to deliver most of his swing voters to Dean, though each would do their dutiful best I am sure. I think Clark as the Democratic Party candidate would have a strong and passionate movement backing him, and a broad appeal that will play well in all regions of the nation and with varied demographics and orientatons. I think that's the winning formular.

[Jack_Dawson]

1. We welcome all Dean supporters

Should any more jump ship.:hi:

[TrueAmerican]

2. Welcome! Join us.

We have Hawaiian Punch, not Kool-Aid. ;)

[Jack_Dawson]

3. LOL

[RogueTrooper]

20. We have that too!

;-)

[Tom Rinaldo]

21. That's great. lol

God, a sense of humor goes a long long way towards keeping us sane.

[Padraig18]

4. I've said it time and again:

The vast, vast, VAST majority of Dean supporters are Democrats first, last and always, and will be rock-solid 'ABB' voters! :)

[quinnox]

5. True, and also Clark would have a much easier time

winning supporters of other candidates than Dean. Dean appeals to a core niche, but his campaign tactics and rhetoric have turned off a lot of the supporters of other candidates. This is one reason I am almost certain Dean won't be the nominee. He is a divisive figure for the party, not a uniter.

[Padraig18]

6. Care to make a friendly wager on the eventual nominee?

:)

[Bucky]

Eat me

I am Tucker Carlson's shoe

[Tom Rinaldo]

8. Hey, I'm already on record

Elsewhere on DU I have said that Dean is the objective favorite right now to take the nomination, but Clark still has a real chance, and I always feel more comfortable backing the underdog. Maybe it's my leftist leanings lol. I just don't agree with the mainstream media, pundits and the like who think this is already over. It ain't! Since I really believe what I said I believe, it is too important to give up now.

[quinnox]

9. No, I don't want to take your money

[Patriot_Spear]

11. I want in on some of that- Clark supporters, are you game?

A wager, my second/third place friends- let's pony up on our picks!

[BootinUp]

13. I have already

I have made 4 or 5 contributions to Clark04 since sept 17th.

:toast:

[demnan]

7. I don't have any doubt that Clark is a very intelligent man

and has a vast amount more experience in foreign policy matters than Dean has, however I'm not familiar with anything he has said about domestic issues to attract voters. I believe Dean's views on health care, education are vastly superior. Note his recent speech on health care and education. (http://www.deanforamerica.com/)

Clark's campaign seems to revolve mostly around his experience as a person (in the military, and as an intellectual) and Dean's seems to involve the policies he proposes. I haven't heard any of the candidates speak at length specifically about what they planned to do like Dean does since Clinton in 1992.

[BootinUp]

18. Well, there is lots of info available

if you have broadband go to www.us4clark.com and check out the following:

12/6/03 Florida Democratic convention
12/2/03 NPR Radio interview
11/6/03 Planned Parenthood debate on Womens Issues
10/6/03 Iowa Townhall with Tom Harkin

I remember these as the times when Clark had the opportunity to talk about domestic issues the most.

Or you can read all of his speeches, articles he has written, his policy papers at his main site www.clark04.com

Or you can also access videos at www.cspan.org

[BootinUp]

19. One other thing on healthcare

Check out this comparison of candidates on healthcare.
http://clark04.com/issues/healthcare/comparison.pdf

This is 3rd party analysis
http://clark04.com/issues/healthcare/clarkplan.pdf

This is the long paper by clark campaign on healthcare
http://clark04.com/issues/healthcare_long.pdf

This is his speech:
http://clark04.com/speeches/007/

cheers

[Lefta Dissenter]

23. Hey, Demnan

Have you checked out Clark's policy statements at his website http://clark04.com/issues/ I think you'll find TONS of specifics regarding a VAST range of issues, both domestic and foreign.

I have been trying to familiarize myself a bit more with some of the other candidates' stances on issues. If you haven't already, then why don't you take the opportunity to see where Clark stands and how he plans to lead our country.


New American Patriotism in Action

General Wesley K. Clark's vision for New American Patriotism has energized people across the country. It's a belief that citizenship comes with responsibilities as well as rights. It's a strategy for national and economic security that invests in people while returning the country to a path of long-term fiscal discipline. In a series of speeches, Clark lays out his policy plans for the future.

"My vision for a New American Patriotism calls for leadership that will make the right choices for all of our people as we confront enormous historic challenges: the right choices to make our country stronger, the right choices for health care, the right choices for the economy, and the right choices for national security," said Clark.

Policy Briefs:
Wes Clark's Agenda for Cities
Wes Clark's plan to revitalize America's cities
Wes Clark's Child Poverty Plan
Wes Clark's plan to lift Americans out of poverty and into opportunity
Wes Clark's Higher Education Plan
Clark's plan to enroll one million more students in higher education by 2008
Wes Clark's Clean Air Plan
A plan to reduce air pollution and save lives.
General Wesley Clark's Statement on the Civil Justice System
Ensuring citizens' ability to seek meaningful redress for legitimate harm
Wes Clark's 10 Pledges
Wes Clark's guidelines for the use of force
Agenda for People with Disabilities
Protecting every American's opportunity to work, compete, and participate in public life
Wes Clark's Universal Preschool Plan
Ensuring that every child is ready for success by ensuring that every child is ready for school
Hispanic and Latino Position Paper
Protecting each citizen's fundamental right to equal opportunity in the Hispanic and Latino community
African-American Position Paper
Protecting each citizen's fundamental right to equal opportunity in the African-American community
AIDS Security Strategy
A plan to fight the rising tide of the pandemic AIDS
Civil Liberties and the USA PATRIOT Act
Wes Clark's Rural and Farm Security Plan
Manufacturing Security Plan
A plan to get America moving in the right direction for manufacturing jobs
Al Qaeda Plan
Strategy for Addressing the Threat Posed by Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda
Iraq Strategy
A Real Plan for Success in Iraq
Making Good on America's Promises
Wes Clark's commitment to American Indians and Alaska Natives
Restarting the American Jobs Engine
Ensuring that Americans have the opportunity to get back to work as soon as possible
Standing Up for America's Workers
Protecting workers' rights to bargain collectively for the greater good
My Economic Vision: Jobs and Growth for All Americans
Growing the economy through responsible fiscal policies and smart stimulus programs
Invest in the Education of America's Future
Preparing our children for global leadership
Protecting the Environment
Responsible conservation of our natural resources, to protect Americans' health and welfare
Statement on GLBT Issues
Ensuring each and every citizen's ability to reach his or her full human potential
Gun Safety
Ensuring responsible gun laws to protect all Americans
Improving our Health Care
Providing every American access to quality health care
Prescription Drug Benefits for America's Seniors
Seniors Make America Great
Responding to the concerns of America's senior population with honor and dignity
The Call to Service
Calling responsible Americans to aid their country in time of need
A Veterans' Security Plan
Protecting the Americans who have sacrificed to protect us
An Agenda for Women
My commitment to addressing women's concerns


Even if you don't agree with everything he says, at least you will have given him the opportunity to present his side to you.

[Patriot_Spear]

10. I think Clark is a great guy...

His positives far outwiegh any perceived negatives.

That being said, I find Dean the better candidate and that's who I'm supporting. Clark and Kerry would be my #2 and #3 respectively.

I am working hard to cement Dean's lead and will continue to do so.

[Larkspur]

12. This Dean supporter's enthusiasm and $ are not transferrable to Clark.

I will never trust this man as the Democratic nominee. I may vote for him over Bush, but he will never get my enthusiasm or my money. Dean earned my support, Clark has earned my scorn.

I really really do think that it will be easier for Dean to deliver most of his core supporters to Clark than it will be for Clark to deliver most of his swing voters to Dean...
As Dean told Clark before Clark jumped in the Prez race, his supporters enthusiasm is not easily transferrable to Clark, should Clark become the nominee. While Dean will work for whoever the Dem nominee is, he can not guarentee his supporters enthusiasm for that person, and I'm one of those persons. I'm not interested in joining Clark's army. I'm a civilian and proud of it.

And Clark does not command swing voters, so he is not in a position to transfer them. Voters and supporters are not privates in any army.

I think Clark as the Democratic Party candidate would have a strong and passionate movement backing him
His support is not as large as Dean's is now, so what you are saying is that Clark can't appeal beyond what he has now, which is a LOT LESS than what Dean has. This says that Clark has VERY LIMITED charisma and the polls are starting to show that with his decline in them.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

14. Yeah, We Know, You've Only Told Us About a Million Times

:eyes:

DTH

[Larkspur]

25. Apparently you need to read it a million more times

Don't underestimate the enthusiasm of Dean supporters for our candidate. It will be Clark's undoing.

[jmaier]

38. It might very well

be more than Clark's undoing.

[Tom Rinaldo]

15. I understand your personal choice

I respect it even. I know none of us can be traded around between candidates like baseball cards or something. Not everyone will shift their personal alliegences to the other candidate, for varied reasons. However I did NOT say that Clark can't appeal beyond what he has now. Clark has only been running for three months. How long has Dean been running for? Clark's movement is constantly growing and has gotten quite far in a short amount fo time. It will continue to grow unless he completely falls out of contention. What I am saying is that Clark's backing will EXPLODE if he wins the nomination. Just an opinion after all.

[Larkspur]

24. Clark doesn't have the charisma to make it explode

He'd only get more on his bandwagon because he would be the nominee, but if he wins the nomination via backroom deals and not by the people via campaigning, then he'll split the Party.

[Tom Rinaldo]

26. I think most people who view "American Son"...

... would end up with a very different take than the one you just took. Clark has charisma. That film captures the Clark that I was initially drawn to months ago after a greatt deal of study on him, and which I have seen revealed the several times I have seen him in person. I challange you and others to watch it. If you have a good internet connection the full film is available for viewing at www.clar04.com via the "American Son" link found there.

Clark will not win the nomination via "backroom deals" alone, any more than Dean will win the nomination via the "back room deal" he made with Gore. One man's front room is another mans back room. Both candidates have mounted serious grass roots campaigns (only one has been at it a lot longer) as well as seeking the support of Established politicians. Please don't get me started on my feelings about Gore's preemptive attempt to speak for all Democrats in favor of short circuiting the nomination process before an actual vote is cast.

[Larkspur]

27. Gore didn't pre-empt the primaries any more that the other Dem

leaders who have endorsed Dean have. He may have stunned the Clintonistas ruling the Dem Party, but he didn't short-circuit the process.

Gore gave very specific reasons why he supported Dean and if you had paid attention to Gore's speeches from last year through the last MoveOn.org one, you would have seen it coming. I did, but I didn't know when he'd do it.

[Tom Rinaldo]

29. If Clinton had done that

There would have been a holy uproar if Clinton did what Gore just pulled. Why is that do you think? He is a party leader, right? But he hasn't asked the Democats to unify now around anyone has he? Do you think he has no preferences? I think he hasn't because he understands that his role as a Party leader and former President makes it unseemly and divisive for him to formally endorse anyone now. Same with Carter. While Gore may not be a former President he was the standard bearer in 2000, and many think he actually won and refer to him only half jokingly as "President Gore".

I assume Gore actually prefers Dean, I will give him that. But please don't bring up the specter of "back room" deals when it might come to Clark, but not when it comes to Dean. I very literally (as opposed to figuratively) know better.

[Larkspur]

30. All the candidates had been talking to and seeking Gore's endorsement

so it's hypocritcal for the others to slam Dean for this.

Dean earned Gore's endorsement because he started working for it early on and he got his supporters to write Gore letters asking for his endorsement of Dean. The only backroom deal done was by us grassroots Dean supporters who wrote letters to Al Gore and other elected leaders to endorse Dean. Our letters were one of the reasons Gore mentioned as convincing him to endorse Dean. And remember Gore specifically mentioned that Dean is the only one who trully has excited the Dem grassroots. Clark has excited some, but not the numbers Dean has and the fact that Clark can't crack Dean's support or hobble it proves Gore's point that Dean has the strongest grassroots campaign in modern history.

What were Clark supporters doing to win Gore's endorsement while Dean supporters were writing letters to Al back in September and October?

[Tom Rinaldo]

33. I didn't slam Dean for doing this

Read my posts again. All I said was one man's front room deal is another man's back room deal. I brought it up only because you brought up the spectre of how "back room" deals could taint a Clark nomination if he wins one.

[Larkspur]

35. The backroom deals I'm talking about are ones where Clark

does not win the people's vote but Party hacks use intimidation or deceit on convention delegates to steal the nomination away from Dean and annoint Clark or they try to hobble Dean's nomination.

If Clark wins the primaries through his own merit I'll concede, but I don't trust him or those who work on his campaign.

[Larkspur]

28. I'm not a fan of military people who think that they can be president

without proving that they have made the transition from the military life to civilian. Clark's lack of civilian elected office and campaigning is a BIG minus for me.

I'm not a fan of the military. I respect it but am not interested in living under any kind of military or military-esque admin.

And I don't have access to high speed Internet in my area so won't be viewing Clark's film anytime soon.

[baronvonbryan]

32. we need to support ANYBODY over bush

your statement saying that you would not support clark is absolutely ludicrous. Do you think that Clark is as bad as bush??? that's absolutely insane. furthermore, Clarks nationwide movement is almost as large as Dean's and that's saying a lot considering Dean has been campaigning for 2 years and clark has been for less than 4 months. Clark does command swing voters and i have seen this as i talk to independents about Clark. Clark can win and Dean probably cannot. we need to support a winner!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. I'm a Dean supporter, but would back Clark.

Perhaps not as enthusiastically as Dean, but I wouldn't have any trouble supporting his campaign. So, your thesis is correct in that regard. I'm not so confident that the Clark supporters will be so willing to do likewise if (when) Dean gets the nomination.

As far as the infamous four, if one of them should get it, (it does seem highly unlikely), I'll be voting Green.

[Tom Rinaldo]

17. As passionately as I now try to rally all activists to Clark

I will try to rally them to Dean if he wins the nomination. Promise. I would even concentrate much of my efforts on fellow Clark supporters. My fear is, I think Clark specifically is able to win over voters that I personally would otherwise have a hard time gaining the trust of. It is the general public more so than the activist base that I am worried about. I would do my best to get Clark supporters on board a Dean campaign if it comes to that.

[Jai4WKC08]

22. I would vote for Dean

But that's about it. Certainly no money. Don't have enough to be throwing it away, and I believe with all my heart that Dean can't win.

[baronvonbryan]

31. Absolutely Correct

It would be much easier for the deaniacs to switch to clark than some of the clarkies to go to dean. no matter who wins the nomination, all democrats will rally around them so Clark is the person who has the best chances with the swing voters and the person who would win the general election.

[edzontar]

34. The hatred expressed toward Dean by Clark supporters...

On this board is really starting to turn me off.

You are not helping your cause with ths stuff.

[Tom Rinaldo]

37. I see very little hatred here

That is not the overall tone of this thread as far as I can see. I do not think I for one expressed any hatred towards Dean here (or anywhere for that matter). I think I express genuine respect for Dean and what he has accomplished. Please point it out to me if you think that is untrue, because I would want to correct any misimpression I may have left along those lines. I do express that I think Dean would be a weaker candidate against Bush than Clark. I do not think that is an expression of dislike for Dean, let alone of hatred.

As to what others may or may not express, this is an open forum with thousands of participants as I know you know. Supporters of both candidates daily get upset by attacks on their candidates. I know I can get extremely frustrated at some Dean supporters also. I don't think Dean supporters have to refute many claims that Dean is a war criminal and trained killer who could not possibly have a gentle bone in his body, at most Dean is accused of being duplicious. Clark is accused of being a Republican plant while Dean is merely accused of being a conservative Democrat posing as a liberal. Clark is accused of active willful and willing participation in shadowy alliances of corporate, government, and military forces seeking to advance and consolidate American Imperialism, while Dean gets accused of taking money from some shady contributers, and so on, and so on. Hate is a two way street, and backers of both men have run into some rush hour traffic here at DU.

Yes I am continuing to make the best case that I can, both here and elsewhere for why Democrats should choose Clark as their nominee. I fully expect Dean supporters to do the same. There is no hatred implied or intrinsically expressed in that exercise from either side. Some people go out of bounds from both sides. While not yet a unity thread, this thread started out with the premise that supporters of both Dean and Clark should work together for the eventual nominee in the Fall. The first resistance to that Idea was first expressed here by a Dean supporter who said that he could not work for Clark, though he would still vote for him. I for one said I respected his decision.

I also said I would work tirelessly to convert Clark supporters to Dean supporters IF Dean wins the nomination. What is your problem? Can you not see that the "hatred" you allude to is not the sole property of any candidates supporters? I am trying hard to remain above that, while continuing to actively campaign for the man I support. If you don't want to participate in a discussion of the premise of this thread, you don't have to.

[Larkspur]

36. As I've said before, this Deanocrat's enthusiasm and $ does not transfer

to Clark.

And if Clarkies won't vote for Dean, then are they really Democrats and why should this Deanocrat support Clark if they won't support Dean? Unlike Clark, Dean has a proven record as a Democrat.

[mikehiggins]

39. And WHO is saying they won't vote for the Democratic nominee?

Lark, this is really the crux of the matter. Clark supporters may think that Dean doesn't have a chance of a snowball in hell of winning in 2004 but that doesn't mean they won't still work for the defeat of George Bush.

This doesn't translate into hatred of Dean, no matter what.

Are you saying that YOU will not vote or support Clark if he is the nominee? Then I have to ask you your own question? Who is the real Democrat?