I now totally understand the reasoning behind voting for bush

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

for some of them.

I had a very frank discussion today with a friend whom I became friends with before I knew her political leanings (in my defense). We are very close, or were, we have grown apart in the last couple of years.

But I asked her if she minded me picking her brain about bush and she said not at all. I even transcribed the conversation and I discovered a strange phenomenon I've not been able to really verbalize yet.

Here is the conversation, word for word:

ME: "So, Kim, who are you voting for?"

HER: "Bush."

"Can you tell me the reasons why?"

"Well, I feel like he's done a good job on security, you know, um, keeping us safe from more terrorist attacks."

"And what makes you say that?"

"You have---you have to go back to September 11th. That day, you remember, I mean it was just terrifying and he did so much, he gave that speech and just made me feel so safe you know like I knew he was going to go after whoever did it and we'd be safer."

"By whoever did it, you mean Osama bin Laden?"

"Well, yeah and we did...."

"He's still missing."

"Yeah. Yeah he is. But I think they've done everything they can to find him..."

"Why do you say that?"

"I just do. I don't have statistics or stuff--or all that stuff, I just trust him and I trust they've done everything they can to find him."

"What makes you trust bush? If you wouldn't mind, be as specific as you possibly can? What is it that causes you to trust him so implicitly? You don't know him personally do you?"

"No, no, I don't know him. You know I don't know him! (laughs) Ummm, I don't know. I guess you could call it more of a gut feeling. I mean, uh, I don't know. He just seems....like a trustworthy person."

"I'm not trying to drive you crazy, but can you maybe dig a bit deeper and tell me what exactly makes him seem that way?"

"Mmmmm, this is hard. You're mean! (laughs) You bee-otch! (laughs) Ok, I'll try....I guess just the way he talks. He just---just sounds honest and I really can't describe it better."

"Ok, I'll leave you alone on that now. Does it bother you that we haven't found Osama bin Laden?"

"Mmmm, I dunno, I don't think so, because I don't think he can attack us again....I think they've done other stuff to him, you know like cut off his money and stuff. And who knows? He might be dead by now."

"He might be. Some reports came out recently showing that al-Queda is doing just fine despite working with less money. Did you hear about that? Apparently they can work on a shoestring."

"Where'd you hear that?"

"I read it in the newspaper."

"Oh well....whatever. I mean, I just feel like we are safer."

"Ok changing direction a bit. Why aren't you voting for Kerry?"

"Why AREN'T I? Um, he's not bush!"

"Can you elaborate? What is it about Kerry that you think makes him the poorer choice?"

"Well, I mean, I just think we should stick with the one that we went through all this WITH. Bush went through September 11th as president and....and we were with him and we all bonded together and stuff and it just doesn't seem right to say 'oh ok well we're going to have a different president now that September 11 is over! Thanks! You did a good job but we're replacing you now!'"

"But you know some people don't think he has done such a good job, especially since then."

(laughs) "Yeah, like you, right? Look, I just feel like it'd be such a slap to--to replace him after all he did during September 11th."

"Like what? What all did he do?"

"Are you serious? He gave that wonderful speech, he sent troops to Afghanistan..."

"Kim, do you think that we would have a president who WOULDN'T do those things? I mean, do you think another president would have just sat there and not done anything at all?"

"I don't know, I guess not."

"Then why do you consider bush so amazing for doing what any president would have done?"

"Because HE'S the one who did it."

End of transcript.

BINGO. I don't know why the word "imprinting" keeps coming to mind, but it's as if they imprinted on him like a duckling does to its parent in those days of extreme fear and it somehow caused them to have total cognitive dissonance about everything else that has happened since.

Isn't that interesting? It isn't necessarily the MAN, it is just that HE was the one who was president at the time! Now, to be fair, I think most people who feel the way she does ALREADY liked him, but I have never seen such a phenomenon before.

I guess bush should thank his lucky stars for September 11th and the fear-talk he and Cheney and their ilk have kept up continuously since then.

[cheshire]

1. She probably heard all that 2nd hand .

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

5. Heard all what second hand? eom

[Lexingtonian]

2. think: cult

It's a spell that can be broken, but it's very strongly buttressed by stupidity and tacit prejudices.

Console yourself with the thought of how hard a lot of these people are going to cry as the election returns come in.

[annabanana]

3. That was good brain-picking!

Her responses ring true to me. That kind of a mindset explains why obvious contradictions (to us) don't seem to phase them, or make their support waver.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

6. EXACTLY!!!

See that's exactly why die-hard bush supporters have driven me bananas for so long! Because no matter what you tell them, no matter what statistics or figures you give them, it DOESN'T MATTER. HE was the one who was president when 9/11 happened and some kind of strange fear-based imprinting happened and now they are oblivious to anything else about him.

[annabanana]

10. How can we lead them out of the wilderness?

Gently explain to them the meaning of that PDB with the heading that should have alerted him? She probably wasn't paying attention to the 9/11 hearings........

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

21. Wanna elaborate on that?

[yardwork]

43. Clinton stopped a terrorist attack planned for New Years 1999

Clinton was prepared to retaliate for the Cole bombing, but by the time al Queda's involvement was confirmed, Bush was in power, and he refused to retaliate, despite repeated warnings to do so.

Read Richard Clarke's book, Against All Enemies. It lays out quite a bit of information that Bush was given and ignored.

[alarimer]

29. it happened on his watch

Why doesn't he get BLAMED for it. I mean if it happened while Clinton was President (and it very nearly did) he would have been trounced. There would have been no "sopport the President no matter what" talk from the Republicans. This is what drives me crazy.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

32. I know.

I did admit that, among these people, there was already a bias FOR bush. But that doesn't adequately explain the completely BLIND adherance to him in people who will even ADMIT he's fucked up since then!

[pinkpops]

4. Sad, huh? Similar experiences here

I guess There's a sucker born every minute.

[democrat_patriot]

7. Same here:

Mom says she thinks it would be unwise to change presidents during a war.

I've given up trying with them, Dad is a dittohead. sigh.

[yardwork]

44. That's one reason Bush went to war

He knew that a lot of people would blindly support him if we were involved in a war, so he started one!

Why can't people see this? It's like being grateful to the person who called the fire department after he set fire to your house, even though he called the wrong number and your house burned down. Oh well. He meant well. He tried. It would be wrong to take the gasoline away from him. Sheesh.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

50. OMG!! DING DING DING DING DING!!!

It's freaking co-dependent behavior!!! It's co-dependent but on a huge scale!

HOW freaking weird!!!!

Bush fosters co-dependence, unhealthy emotional patterns in his supporters!!!

[wurzel]

8. There is just a lack of critical thinking.

She is saying I am voting for Bush for President because he is the President. She seems to think it is somehow wrong not to. You are going to have to explain to her it is OK to vote against a sitting President of any party if he do his job as badly as Bush has.

[Armstead]

9. Your friend is a moron

and I hope there's not enough like her to re-elect Bush. If there are then this nation deserves the fascism, terrorism and economic collapse that we get, I guess.

Sorry, but that is the shallowest thinking I have ever heard. I can;t even call it thinking.

It's even idiotic on a visceral level. Not only is she uninformed, but SHE IS A BAD JUDGE OF CHARACTER. It is patently obvious to most people I know (not all of them flaming liberals) that Bush is smug, shallow, arrogent, mean-spirited and out of his depth.

As a friend of mine said "I might hire him to sell cars, but no way is he fit to be president."

[WyLoochka]

46. She has to be one of

the 50% of Americans who have an IQ under 100.

[hippiegranny]

11. your friend sounds superstitious

yours sounds like any number of conversations i have had with people just like her, on a variety of subjects, and what it comes down to is simple superstition; they have to not step on the cracks, they must knock on wood, they must vote bush...

[patrice]

12. Sad little girl looking for "Daddy" fooled by a guy who creates war . . .

that kills young ladies like Kim without COUNTING them at all.

S/he doesn't know she is a 0 to W.+ Cheney et al.

Pathetic.

[Minimus]

13. A co-worker said the same type of things

he also praised bush because, "we have not been attacked since"

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

15. It isn't so much

that she thinks you shouldn't vote against a sitting president--she voted for Dole in 96, after all. It's that she has a particularly weird attachment to this one BECAUSE OF September 11th.

And yeah, there's no thinking going on at all. YOu can tell that from the conversation. I just wanted to try to get inside that attitude, find out what is informing it.

Turns out it is nothing but PURE FEAR.

Make the people afraid....

On edit, her husband's business has suffered since 2000, she's been laid off and had to take a job paying much less, and they have a kid in college and tuition is through the roof, so he joined the ROTC to get an Army scholarship so now his butt belongs to the Army for SIX years after he gets out of college and she worries about Iraq. In other words, people who have EVERY REASON IN THE WORLD to vote against bush and don't.

Because HE was the one who was president on that day. It boggles the mind.

[roseBudd]

17. I tell people the Army War College...

conceded that the Iraq war was a mistake

That Bush got a PDB on Aug. 6 and did nothing

Rosebud

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

20. This is a woman I have been

trying to convince for two years. Nothing breaks through. No amount of data, facts, reports, nothing.

I've even put it into excel so that it would be in spreadsheet form, nicely divided by topic (bush's mistakes). She skimmed over it, handed it back to me, sighed and said, "There is no way I am NOT voting for him."

That's when I asked her what it would take to get her to not vote for him. She said she couldn't think of anything.

And get this: when I said, "what if someone showed him on live TV eating toddler fingers?" She laughed and I said "SERIOUSLY! Would you not think him fit for the office then?"

She said, "I would still vote for him. I can't believe anyone would eat toddler fingers."

[saccheradi]

66. The election rests on the fight.

Bush must be made plain.

In simple concrete terms he must be revealed for the pathetic, simple-minded weasel that he is...

Kerry himself needs to fight for the decisions he has made and state in no uncertain terms that he voted in opposition to the administration's stupidity when it came to the "war on terror" and in Iraq. He must make it KNOWN that the decisions the Weasel has made have been wrong and detrimental, and that he OPPOSED the decisions where he felt they were wrong and supported them only when he thought they were right, which was NOT VERY OFTEN.

That is Kerry's record. Voting down stupidity for better options. But the repuqs and the "Conservative Democrat" turncoats went forward with plans that Kerry disagreed with after the attack on New York and LOOK WHAT HAPPENED!

That's what the American people need to see. They need to KNOW that Kerry has been battling to keep the Worm in line, that what the Repuq's call "flipflopping" is what intelligent people call making informed decisions to PROTECT us from a stupid sonofabitch that shouldn't be in the White House to begin with.

because that is the FACT of the matter.

[DulceDecorum]

16. You cannot reason with faith

and those who claim faith
have switched off the part of the brain
that deals with facts that can impeach their faith.

I will never forget watching the conclusion of an episode of
the Phil Donohue show.
Phil turned to a woman in the audience and asked " quick, without thinking, who are you going to vote for?"
The woman said "Reagan."
Mario Cuomo nodded his head and said, "that's what you get when you don't think."

This voting for Bush,
it is a religion thing,
you wouldn't understand it.

The entire Bush Administration passeth all understanding.
Can I hear an Amen?

[KittyWampus]

65. Faith & Reason Are NOT Exclusive. BLIND Faith & Reason Are

Big difference.

[Ilsa]

18. Some people Want a paternalistic government.

They want big daddy to take care of them and keep them safe.

Your friend needs to grow up. We are not safer. We've spent lots of money on Iraq to the detriment of protecting our borders and imports.

[0rganism]

30. I hope the irony inherent in your post was intentional

For decades, the rightwingnuts have been harping on and on about how liberals want a "parental state" or a "nanny state" or some such bullshit. Now they finally get one, and it's from their own little emperor.

[Ilsa]

53. Absolutely. It's ironic, because last year, at a

Mary Kay Convention in Dallas, they were quoted as saying these things. They said they don't know any details about Iraq, etc; they wanted their prez to take care of all that so they wouldn't have to think about it.

Britney Spears said essentially the same thing: that we should just trust in this (&^%$*^#%&) president that he is doing the right hting for us.

It also scares me from the standpoint that women in immediate past generations have worked so hard to establish that women aren't objects to be taken care of and denied respect, and these women are throwing that away.

[oasis]

19. If any dumbass that believes a terrorist will attack an unemployment line

Bush can have his vote.

People of Ohio, wake up.

[Gold Metal Flake]

22. Republicanism as a neurotic style.

Very revealing post.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

23. yes exactly thank you

it smacked of neurosis! I was trying to think of that word, but struggling with a bad sinus headache right now (kick in meds, kick in!).

[deadparrot]

24. I know the feeling.

Friend I consider *extremely* book-smart and I were having a discussion on politics. Her reason for cheering for *?

"Well, just at all the meetings about the war...Kerry wouldn't know what was going on...he wouldn't know how to deal with it. Bush should be able to finish what he's started."

I was speechless. All I said was, "Do you *really* think this is going to be finished in four years?"

"Well, no, but..." Trailed off and didn't respond.

[eleny]

25. And I felt the opposite

By the time he got to NYC to the WTC site I was pissed about him sitting in the classroom and didn't even like the jacket he wore to the WTC site. Trying to act like an everyman.

People loved Giulliani. But I recall one of the nightly press conferences where someone asked him if the air was safe. And he said yes, they'd checked into it and everything was at safe levels. The words out of my mouth were "You lying sack of shit." My husband was surprised and I just told him to stop kidding himself. Those buildings had to be full of PCBs.

I had more respect and awe for Ashley Banfield during that time with the chaos always right behind her. But there's the difference, isn't it? Your friend and others liked the shrub to begin with. They voted for him. His ratings had been faltering and then the attack came. Lucky little shrubster once again had incredible luck. So here we are.

Thanks so much for posting your conversation. It's helped me enormously. Some people are just more needy. I wasn't afraid during and after Sept 2001. I was pissed that the jerk was in the WH and believed he would coast for another 7 years in the people's house on Pennsylvania Ave.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

27. Yep

you described my feelings exactly.

Remember when it came out that the EPA report on the air in NYC had been suppressed and it turns out it was FULL of asbestos and PCBs? I told this friend that and she said she felt sorry for New Yorkers. And I said, no, you missed the point, New Yorkers were TOLD THE AIR WAS SAFE AND THE EPA KNEW IT WASN'T. (I didn't yell at her.)

Her reaction? She sighed and said "Well I mean I'm sure all presidents have stuff like that happen."

I said, "So. It doesn't bother you?"

She said it did, but shrugged her shoulders and kind of said what're you gonna do?

And I suggested she'd care a hell of a lot more if she LIVED there. That's when we were getting testy and decided to get off the phone.

[eleny]

36. Oh yeah - That's when I see red

Your friend was soooo afraid and then felt soooo safe. But let's face it, she doesn't know how to feel for the people of NYC. I was born and raised there and I was so pissed at that lying sack of it. I'd been lied to by managers about various safety issues in the workplace over my decades of working.

Guilliani and Bush are nothing but sociopaths. Guilliani, when he was still married, even boffed his girlfriend in Gracie Mansion when his kid was at home! Bush* probably sat immobile in that classroom dumbstruck by his luck. That's what makes this so hard to take and why I just can't watch the speeches and hoopla except for some commentary. 9/11 was a Republican lucky day and they're still riding it's back.

Hugz,
Eleny

[diplomats]

54. Eleny, I was wondering why nobody ever brings that up about his

behavior with Judith Nathan in Gracie Mansion when he was still married to Donna Hanover. He is now married to Judith and I guess everybody conveniently forgets his adultery. All of a sudden, he's the hero of the hour and everybody is touting his suitability for elective office again, maybe the presidency.

And will somebody please tell me how come some Catholic priests say Kerry isn't allowed to receive the Sacrament because he's pro-choice when Giuliani, Schwarzenegger, Pataki, etc. are also pro-choice Catholics and nothing is said about them taking Communion?

[incapsulated]

26. Excellent job!

It really comes down to "stay the course, or else..." It's an imprint that stems from outright fear. Fear that they use every day, and this is why.

We have to make this guy look WEAK. The only way I know with such a limited amount of time is to go on offense and attack.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

28. I agree

but I honestly think people like her are GONE. I mean, just goners.

I think people like her will be ok once they see Kerry isn't Satan himself.

But I don't think she or others like her would ever be convinced to vote for Kerry, even if we had a million years to work on them.

However, fortunately, not all of us seem to be susceptible to this weird phenomenon.

(I think Kerry's gonna win, by the way.)

[AuntPatsy]

37. "not all of us seem to be susceptible to this weird phenomenon"

Is it that simplistic? Some weird phenomenon going on where some people remain completely blinded by the truth of what is going on around them? As offbeat as it may sound to some, you just might be on to something, I cannot for the life of me figure out what happened to my uncle, once an avowed Democrat, now he is a firm believer that Bush can do no wrong?

It blows my mind..what is even more eerie is that their is no one in this world with more little quirks than me I promise you, bad luck, good luck thingys etc...

From day one, I never even felt a small tug when he stood on ground zero. So are we all just bit actors in some wierd supernatural twighlight zone movie?

[incapsulated]

40. Well...

As someone who has lived all her life "not getting it" when it comes to most of what her fellow Americans think, I can't do anything but try to analyze what their motivations are and respond accordingly.

Which is what the Kerry campaign should do, as well.

[underseasurveyor]

31. Fascinating

I find the unconditional trust of the government by those who have absolutely no clue what's going on in their name, and with their tax dollars, even at the most basic levels, quite disturbing.
Be Afraid, works well :evilfrown:

'Like I don't know. He just seems. I feel safe. I just trust him. Like a trustworthy person.'
:wow:OMFG!


Borg mentality :-(

Thanks for doing that M_S

[0rganism]

33. It's like having a virtual lobotomy

Zell convinced me, beyond a doubt last night, that the new conservative reasons primarily with its stem.

[mitchum]

34. You should get her to swap her car for some magic beans

seems as if she would go for it

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

41. Not unless it involves bush

that day did something to her, seriously on a very deep level.

I'm thinking maybe people like her already didn't have any critical thinking skills (I know she didn't) and that day just....just was the worst thing to happen to someone who is scared easily, irrational, opposed to logic, AND happened to already like bush. That combination was very very very very very good for bush.

But still, what are his approval numbers at?

[depakid]

35. Very astute observation re: imprinting

Dovetails with Andrew Card revolting 'parenting" statement today.

This imprinting was purposefully reinforced by the corporate media. which has spared no expense to build up this phony father image. Kerry needs to expose that for what it is-

[peacetalksforall]

38. You're lucky to have her as a friend because in spite of her stuckness

she didn't spout biblical verses or hate for all Muslims like some I listen to.

[KoKo]

39. I think you got it! Imprinting. Americans are very busy...raising kids,

both working of all socio-economic ranges and they don't have time to think. They say: "Well, he was President and we were attacked, he retaliated and he keeps at it. As long as I don't have to worry about my safety I will be glad to give up some freedoms...hey we laugh when we have to fly about the inconvenience...but we know it's worth it because Bush is keeping us safe."

There isn't much thought in our busy lives to question him. Also his father was a President, and Dick Cheney was with him...so they have to be trustworthy because they aren't in jail or anything.

It's "out of sight, out of mind." Unless they have someone in Iraq (I assume your friend doesn't) then why does it matter to me. " We have a military lets use them. And, not so many folks are unemployed that anyone but Lou Dobbs (and us folks on DU) notice...and we have a 401-K and it's not doing well but CNBC and CNN says it's all going to come back when we get rid of the "terraists" so why change Captains in Midstream? He's funny and cute and he seems sincere, why would he let us down and not be doing the best for America?"

[yardwork]

42. Thank you! I haven't been able to learn much because

I'm not patient with Bush supporters. I make them defensive and then they clam up. I'm lousy at trying to persuade people.

All I've been able to get out of people is that "Bush is a Godly man," but they clam up after that.

Your conversation revealed a lot more. Thanks for posting it here.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

45. You have to REALLY be in the right mood

and move REALLY slowly with them (they scare off easily because I think they must sense, on some level, that their reasons are not going to hold up to the light of logic). You've got to gently peeeel back the layers of their statements to find what's underneath.

I've been picking her brain for a while now.

Someone mentioned above that she didn't mention Christianity. We did talk about that one time and, while she is Christian, she told me that doesn't have much to do with why she's voting for him. Then she surprised me by pointing out Kerry is Christian, too. I didn't know she even knew that.

I asked her if she would vote for a president who was NOT Christian and she said it depends. Then I asked her if she would vote for an atheist and she said no, she wouldn't.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

47. The more I think about it

the more I swear this should be an entry in the DSM IV, the manual that psychologists and psychiastrists use. I'm not saying it's a mental illness, I wouldn't go that far.

But I honestly think a team of psychologists should seriously study this! What happens to people who:

1. already have little to no critical thinking skills
2. do not read or listen to any mainstream sources of news (she might watch the local news every now and then)
3. are easily scared

Then throw in a big disaster. That'd be hard to test! But you know what I mean.

I think it might already be described, I am searching on google. The reaction of intellectually stunted people during great tragedy to the person they presume was in charge during the tragedy. God, what IS the word for this???

[Kingshakabobo]

55. Psychology

I agree, I just had the same frustrating conversation with a co-worker over drinks (it got to the point where I wanted to bust a bottle over his head to knock some sense in to him, but that is a different story).

Of course, dictators have been using the same techiniques for centuries to quell the uneducated masses by perpetuating conflicts with third parties. Luckily for Bush, he didn't have do much to keep the masses un-educated-They managed that on their own. Also, the conflict came to him-Like everything else in his life, he didn't have to work at it.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

P.S.
As for the dictator stuff.......I'm, by no means, a conspiracy theorist but the "zeig heil" tenor of the administration and the Republican party et. al. really scares me. Mix in a little patriot act, a major attack and 30 thousand well armed and funded Black Water Security members........I sleep a lot less these days

[Cronus Protagonist]

48. The power of the BIG LIE - Nazis used the Reichstag fire

Fear reminds people of their frailty. They immediately look for someone; something to save them because they can't do it themselves.

Then, right at that time....

Look! there's {Insert person to imprint here - BUSH} speaking very soothingly, strongly, positively, like, well, a hypnotist. The sheeple gather together in a flock, go all doe-eyed at the shepherd (Jesus/God/Bush hybrid) and bleat he's my daa-aad... he's my daaa.aady... he'll get the baaa.aad men.

Bush is God, Rove is the sheepdog.

Lick Laura's Bush - Drop Bush Not Bombs! - FUCK BUSH
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

49. Also in re-reading this

I just noticed something I hardly paid attention to before.

She actually made up a scenario in her mind about what happened to OBL!!!

She said that she's pretty sure he can't attack us again and is sure we've "done stuff to him."

Wow. She filled in the story's holes on her own in bush's favor.

Now THAT is telling. Think about the bushies you know....how many of them do that, too?

On edit, yardwork (I believe that is the poster's name) helped me to get at something up above: it's co-dependence!!!

It's CLASSIC co-dependent behavior!!!! My God.

[yardwork]

51. I've noticed the story holes phenomenon!

My son's classmate told him that "America invaded Iraq by accident while we were chasing Osama bin Laden out of Afghanistan."

Others have become angry with me when I pointed out that there were no Iraqis involved in the 9/11 terrorist attacks. They are certain that all the terrorists (or most of them - they are vague) were sent by Saddam Hussein to attack us, and so it was the right thing for us to fight back.

My theory is that people can't understand why a president they trust would do such an irrational thing as to invade a country not involved in terrorism or 9/11, so they invent missing pieces to make it all look rational.

In their mind:

Saddam had WMD and attacked us on 9/11. Therefore we attack back. But we were nice. We gave him a chance to surrender and he didn't. So we had no choice but to defend ourselves.

By this reasoning, anyone who disagrees with Bush must be wussy or stupid or just plain unpatriotic. And, conveniently, that's exactly what they think of Kerry and anyone who supports him. And then - here come the honest veterans who tell us what Bush supporters already know - Kerry was a traitor and a coward. It all fits together so neatly, if you ignore all the facts and invent missing pieces to tie together Bush's bizarre and irrational behavior.

[yardwork]

52. Ooooh. Co-dependence. Must give this some thought.

Enablers fill in the story holes for the addict, to protect the addict from the realities of the problem he/she causes.

"Bob didn't fall down the stairs because he was drunk off his ass again. Bob fell down the stairs because the contractor didn't fix them properly and everyone's been so mean to Bob at work and ....."

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

60. See what I mean?

It works from all angles. I used to be a big co-dependent (recovered now, thank goodness, have been for years) so I know. Her behavior is CLASSIC co-dependent behavior! No matter what, it's NOT his fault!!!!

Wow.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

58. Moonbeam. We live in TEXAS. "Imprinting" is a good word, I use the

word "branding" as in "Brand name." Since the Reagan 80's it seems the South has been successfully sold that the "Republican" brand = Good, "Democratic" brand = Bad.

That's why the typical Texas Republican I talk to here would actually be less embarrassed to vote for Nader than Kerry, even though in most instances that would make NO FUCKING SENSE whatsoever based on issues. Because the Dem/Kerry brand is the more serious competition, much more energy is spent by the Roves and Atwaters tarring and feathering that "brand" than with Nader.

Now with Rush/Hannity/FOX the Repubs are working on making this "branding" national.

Branding is very powerful. Works for us too, as in kids raised to be Dems from the word go. It usually starts from the parents, just like eating Blue Bell Ice Cream or drinking Coke instead of Pepsi. TV and media make this stronger, particularly when you can now escape into a FOX and AM radio cocoon that only pimps the brands you want.

I really think this is behind the political choices MOST people make including many Dems. It's so strong that as a poor Southerner you might vote for the shrub because the Repub brand is good even while they eliminate your overtime, outsource your job, and start a war that you will then be conscripted into to die for them.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

59. I TOTALLY agree!

Spot on Mayberry!

Branding.....and the branding works WONDERFULLY in a time of extreme fear and confusion!!!

[glitch]

56. I think you really pegged it Moonbeam_Starlight - fear-based actions

The fear on 9/11 paralyzed their ability to reason, now they function on emotion.
I was talking about this with a friend, some people's lives are fear-based and these are the ones who seem to respond to what *co is selling (very intentionally). I think you'll find a lot of her life is focused on fear, not just her political opinions.
I think the only way to break through to these people is to make them feel they're safe. You did that very well with your gentle questioning.
I do feel real compassion for them, (although sometimes when their behavior is so hateful I forget where they are coming from and get disgusted).
How would you like to live your life in fear? Horrible.
Do you know this woman well enough to ask her about her childhood?

[berry]

57. You have inspired me to try to imagine what might be going on.

I'm going WAY out on a limb here--having no training in psychology. But, oh well. It's sort of stream-of-consciousness. What do you think? Could this have any validity?

I might be reading more into that dialog than is there, but I got the feeling that she feels she owes Bush her loyalty. And I think maybe someone like Rove may have thought of this and programmed for it. Consider: we all "know" that Bush himself is loyal. He famously never fires anyone, even if they screw up royally. Of course, O'Neill and Tenet and others *were* dumped, but that is hardly noticed with the constant repetition of the idea that Bush is singularly loyal to his friends (and he manages to make people think that all the people around him *are* friends, not just employees). And the people around him also tell us how devoted to him they are, how loyal.

O.K. Then let's look again at that deer-in-the-headlight moment, those 7+ minutes when Bush looked pretty pathetic. If you aren't a skeptical or hostile Democrat (because he stole the election and rammed through tax cuts for the rich, etc., etc.--if there's nothing he's done that bothered you because you really weren't paying all that much attention, for example--if you sort of bought into the good-guy-who-means-well and truly-repentant-prodigal-son stuff, you might be inclined to feel sorry for him, even worry a little about whether he's going to be able to handle the crisis. And here it is--once again, the lowered expectations. But it isn't condescending so much as watching nervously and not able to breathe really deeply until he somehow muddles through. You're participating with him, almost helping him to get through it by not breathing. (This is by analogy to how I feel when watching some olympic events that require extraordinary precision. But also watching your own kid performing in sports, or music, or acting in a play.) So... whew, he manages to get through it. The feeling is relief, but also you sort own that achievement, however minor. Because you got sucked in to it. It absorbed you.

Before I started thinking about this just now, I never thought about those pathetic minutes in the classroom as something that might consciously have been planned by a master Machiavelli. And maybe I go too far. Maybe this is just something *Bush learned to do from an early age--he may even have a special genius for it.

I do think this is plausible. He has enlisted an awful lot of people into this kind of empathetic relationship with him, people who probably feel that if they were disloyal, if they withdrew their support, he would collapse. Not really, of course. But it would be risky, and they feel not quite sure enough about the safety of the world to take that chance. And whenever the nation seems in danger of forgetting that we are at war, these guys post a terror alert. Quite cynically, I believe. (Yeah, O.K., I'm paranoid.)

Naturally, the manipulators are also out there fear-mongering, fully intending to make people afraid--not only of disasters unimaginable, but afraid that *Bush will fail us (seems quite likely, really), and therefore afraid to fail him, afraid that if you abandon him, he will fall and chaos will ensue. Well, I don't imagine people actually think this, but I think this may be part of what they nebulously feel. People who feel vulnerable, stressed probably are less rational and more superstitious.

Lots of factors do come into play. But this kind of manufactured "loyalty" is one key to it, I do believe. And if you stay loyal, you get to be part of that "family" too. And even the fact that he is so embattled, hated by so many other Americans, makes people who are already loyal feel protective of him, and defensive.

So how do I explain the other image that is being pounded into our brains? The idea that he is "strong." Naturally, I know that *Bush isn't strong--the idea is laughable. But he is stubborn, and that can be mistaken for strength. Or maybe even his supporters know that he is weak, that his swagger is mostly defiant bravado. But they have invested so fully in his success, in believing in that story/myth that they feel (inarticulately) that if he stumbles, they (and the whole nation) fall.

N.B. I do know that I should go back and get all my pronouns to agree, but this is so iffy a post that it doesn't seem worth it. Does anyone think some of this makes sense? And if it does, it could be fairly simple to deprogram these people IF we can show--in poignant little true stories--that HE isn't loyal, that he has betrayed his "friends." (Probably getting them to believe him capable of great betrayals of America is impossible, but little cracks in the myth might work even better. We know he's a bully. There have to be stories of meanness. One is at salon.com right now--a story about Linda Allison in "George W. Bush's missing year.")

[roseBudd]

61. I don't waste anytime trying to convert true believers

I concentrate on hip educated secular youth and African Americans and I am not having to convince anybody, just registering, motivating, framing the defeat of Bush as a team effort and trying to increase turn out. We have a big block of demographic that historically has low turn out. Increase turn out in base voters, is the most cost effective way of gaining Kerry votes.

How to do this? I personally am street canvasing downtown and around campus in the swing state of Ohio. I initiate contact, use humor "Are you with us on Nov. 2 to send that man back to Texas" or "He's gotta go" African Americans are not fooled and they are angry.

Secular college students are not fooled and they are worried.

Please try my technique. It works.

Rosebud

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

62. Oh yeah

I don't try to convert anyone like this. I DID work on her a while back but saw what a lost cause she was.

We are MUCH better off doing what rosebud said.

But I wanted to kinda analyze her (and I am NOT a professional!) because I find that mindset fascinating in a morbid way.

[roseBudd]

64. I actually think suburban white people are more susceptible

to the fear.

because they are the ones that have an unrealistic fear of crime and flee to the suburbs. So of course 9/11 knocked their socks off.

Rosebud who is street canvassing everyday in the swing state of OH

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

68. She is suburban and white!

And I agree on that analysis. I am suburban and white and my husband is too, but we aren't too susceptible to fear.

[mzmolly]

63. This is why the Dems need to point out his failure to protect America on

911, and/or find Osama.

[Francine Frensky]

67. Psychologists HAVE a name for this: think of Elizabeth Smart

I only have a minor in psych. so I don't know the name of the syndrome, but what has happened to HALF our country is exactly what happened to Elizabeth Smart (the girl kidnapped in Utah), and several other famous kidnappee's (Hearst girl?)

What happens is this: the captor treats the person kidnapped decently, but periodically scares the person into thinking some OUTSIDE FORCE is going to harm the poor person who's been kidnapped, but the captor will "keep you safe". Each time, nothing happens. So: scare, then safety.

Over time, the kidnapped person begins to feel that the person who kidnapped them is KEEPING THEM SAFE, and they will do ANYTHING that person wants, they are now putty in their hands.

Think about all the stupid meaningless terror warnings over the years. Think how you felt right after 9-11 every time you heard a loud noise. But nothing ever happened, right???

So, half our country suffers from the same mental disorder that Eliz. Smart had.

Now, how do we "re-program" them???

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

69. Wow, good point.

That is really interesting. I don't hold out hope for them before this election. But this is something I am going to explore.

[Jokinomx]

70. Moonbeam_Strarlight, Thank you so much for sharing your story....

You have showed people very clearly what is wrong with those that support * .... they don't think deeper than the skin of a grape. I really think they are deep down .. very afraid... and by latching on to this "cult" like admiration of a leader.. they feel safe.

Your questions were supurb... you directed her train of thought brillantly. Its to bad she still doesn't have a clue. :thumbsup:

:dem: