sometimes you just have to admit the bible is right

[SwampG8r]

when i look at what is happening to the GOP
i am reminded of this


that which a man soweth,so also must he reap

[BklynChick]

1. karma's a bitch.

[SwampG8r]

2. universal truths

[polichick]

25. Yep - preBiblical.

[enki23]

3. so long as you discount the other 99.99% of it. sure.

.

[zeemike]

7. I hate it when people say things like that

Not because you do not believe...that is fine with me, but it does such a disservice to the truth. And that applies particularly to the teachings of Jesus, which is more like 99% in agreement with most progressive thought.
Plus it tends to drive a wedge between the progressives that do believe and those that don't.
But if you can point out one passage that Jesus spoke that is used as a right wing talking point I will eat my words.

[musicblind]

8. most people who post things like that have never taken the time to actually

read the Bible and study it's history. They assume everything in the old testament or letters of Paul qualify as teachings of Christianity. Only what Jesus spoke qualifies as the teachings of Christianity and Jesus was anti-death penalty, pro separation of Church and state, and STRONGLY against flaunting religion... even to the point of telling his followers to "pray in the closet" because it is between you and God and not to force it on others.

Jesus was an ultra liberal.

[Ozma]

12. WRONG! Poor assumption about people you never met.

Many of us have learned much of the bible, in religious schools, in church, summer camps, college courses.

We simply choose not have to look at the Christian Holy Bible as THE book to guide our lives. There are many others that are very helpful.

[zeemike]

16. Well that is because you have been lied to.

If you believe that the bible says what the fundies say it says.
Just try to read the words of Jesus and tell me if any of it squares with what you learned it was about.
It does not, but you might have to put aside all the crap you have heard in order to be able to read it with out thinking about what you have been told.

[Ozma]

29. You either misunderstood my post, or I wasn't very clear.

You seem to think you are NOT talking to someone with a religious education!

You seem to think you are NOT talking to someone with a religious education!I went to two CHRISTIAN seminaries before I was ordained as a Christian minister. I also studied Eastern Religions, before, during and after my formal religious training.

The words and life and deeds of someone we call Jesus Christ are similar to words and lives of MANY MANY prophets, wise men and wise women, and leaders of other non-Christian people over the last few millenia.

Jesus is A one, but is not and never pretended to be THE ONLY one!

[zeemike]

33. And because they are similar they must be false?

On the contrary I would suggest that because they are not new that they are most likely true.
Wisdom is often preserved and fails teachings often or lost to history.

Did you ever hear the story of Saint Issis?
It is claimed by the Tibetan monks that Jesus traveled to Tibet during his 20 missing years and taught and studied there.
Is that proof he was a fake because he learned from others?

[Ozma]

41. No spiritual guidance is either "false" nor "true".

I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote, or I was imprecise in saying ALL religions have both good and bad qualities. It is the character of the followers that is more important than the religion they believe in.

[zeemike]

45. Yes I guess I did...sorry

And I would agree and even state that most religions have been corrupted.
It is certainly true of most christian ones.
Sorry for being so defensive.

[Ozma]

54. No need to apologise. We all have moments of doubt, and moments of

wonder. That is what part of life is about. Not knowing everything makes finding out our own "truths" so much more meaningful than if someone handed us a set of "truths" we had to believe in from childhood onward.

[Critters2]

34. In what denomination were you ordained? nt

[Ozma]

38. Why? does a particular Christian denomination mean something to you?

There are dozens of recognized Christian denominations in the United States, several more dozen if you count Europe.

The basic book, The Holy Bible, differs from Catholic to Protestant, but the basic Gospel is the same.

Why, I ask, is it important to you to know this, since I am no longer a practitioner of the religion in which I was ordained?

Would it make you feel better if I were a Catholic or Episcopalian Priest, a Unitarian, or a Baptist?

You seem to think religion and faith have to be categorized, divided, and rationalized.

Go to the type of church or synagogue or mosque or other holy place you wish to go to, on your holy day of the week. What I do is really none of your business. Suffice to say, I was trained in the Christian Holy Bible, received two recognized U.S. college degrees, and was recognized to preach, (through ordination), but chose to serve mankind in other ways than preaching.

Again, why is this important to you?

[Critters2]

40. Just curious. Now I'm curious about something else.

Why would asking a simple question like that launch you into such a tirade?

I guess my real question is...What's your effin' problem?

[Ozma]

42. You seem to have a healthy skepticism to people who are not like you!

Praise your inquisitiveness. But remember the teachings of whatever religion you follow, treat your neighbor as you would want your neighbor to treat yourself.

Enough for this evening.

[Critters2]

44. Back atcha. Why would you attack a person for asking a simple question?

Seriesly.

[Ozma]

46. Since when is asking a question of the questioner considered ....

"Attacking"?

Many faiths teach that self-knowledge and spiritual awareness and ascendancy comes MORE from teachers asking questions than from students of the faith demanding answers from others or from a divine being.

Nuff said.

[Critters2]

48. Where did you get your training?

Let's pretend I'm a teacher (since I am) and I'll ask a question....just like you suggest.

[Ozma]

51. Harvard Divinity School.

Class of 1965

My question to you: are you happier now that I gave you an answer?

[Critters2]

53. No. I didn't expect it to make me happier.

So, what do you do now? I mean, when you're not pontificating on the internets.

[Ozma]

56. I live my life in peace, I love my fellow man and woman...isnt' that enough?

I am also retired from a successful career that involved helping people around the world, and I now do what interests ME more than anything, as I fight my physical challenges of old age.

Is this as important as knowing where I was educated, or what religion I was ordained in? Or is it MORE important for you to know what I do now? Think about it. Did I ask YOU what you do NOW? Did I ask YOU if you have a degree from a college?

Why would I need to know that? Why do you need to know that about me?

[Critters2]

57. No. You show no interest in anyone but yourself.

My ego requires me to enter into conversation with others. Yours seems fine all by itself.

[grantcart]

55. out of curiousity what was the other seminary?

(from PTS 1978)

[zeemike]

14. Exactly.

But because the true believers in the teachings of Jesus are not out there shouting on the street corners people believe that the fundies have the only word on Christianity.
Well they do in a way but is is a lie, and they are the author of it.

[crossroads]

17. I strongly agree with you!

In fact... I doubt Jesus would even be a christian today! Just look at what they have done in 'His' name! Nothing like dogma to mess up the Truth!
CR

[TankLV]

10. Stop IGNORING the "old testament".

that one is PURE KRAP...

the "teachings of Jesus" is the NEW TESTAMENT and only a amall part of the "bible"...and while there are many good things in the NEW, it's the OLD that these knuckle draggers so vehemently PROFESS ABOVE ALL OTHERS!!!

[zeemike]

13. I have no reason to ignore the old testament

It is what it is, and that is a mostly history of the Jews from their point of view, plus some of their prophets.
Besides the fundies rely on Paul for their talking points who never knew Jesus and was a former prosecute of christians in the first century.
Seldom do they ever quote Jesus and when they do it is out of context and mixed with something Paul said.
Jesus was most defiantly a progressive in all respects and disputed some of the things in the Old testament ("It is said of them of old an eye for an eye...But I say to you...")
And his disciples after his death were what we would call Communists. "They held all things in common"
So please don't legitimize the fundies by agreeing with them.

[TankLV]

60. Fundies love the OLD testiment to the EXCLUSION of the new...

I doubt ANYTHING I've said even remotely legitimizes the fundy assholes...

I repeat - the BIBLE is mostly full of shit...

Period.

[johnaries]

15. As Lewis Black says "it's not their book!".

"We Jews will be happy to explain it to them. For a fee."

[4lbs]

19. Yeah. Lewis Black also said that the Old Testament was written the way it was so that...

the Jewish people on that Exodus would not get out of line and turn into a bunch of savages, after walking in the desert for all that time.

"Get out of line, and God will come down and mess you f*ckers up real bad!"

[johnaries]

22. Makes sense. Ya gotta love Black! nt

[goclark]

21. Me too

My grandmother taught me to follow the Ten Commandments and that is what I do.

Not asking anyone else to follow them but I do.

[onager]

30. Progressive, my ass.

Matthew 10:34--Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Nice family values, there, Jesus. Did you go to Liberty College?

I love this one: Matthew 7:1--Judge not lest ye be judged.

Yet just a few short verses later, Jesus is judging and condemning whole bunches of people to eternal torture. Thanks, Jesus, you're a real peach!

Matthew 7:14--Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
7:19--Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Then you said:

But if you can point out one passage that Jesus spoke that is used as a right wing talking point I will eat my words.

Good grief! Do you remember who George W. Bush named as his favorite philosopher? Hint: it wasn't Bertrand Russell.

[zeemike]

32. I do so love it when those passages are used out of context.

First the sword one, which fundies use to justify their "War" against evil.
What you are not telling us or just don't know is that is taken from his charge to his disciples and it is a warning to them about what will happen to them in the future.
And he starts that charge with these words which flies in the face of the intent of what you say.

" 16. Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

You said;
Jesus is judging and condemning whole bunches of people to eternal torture. Thanks, Jesus, you're a real peach!

You mean here?

21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You mean that Jesus should not have spoken out against those that worked iniquities?
Like he should not have messed with the Phrases and Seduces or driven the money changers out of the temple?
Get real man. Jesus was not a shrinking violet liberal he was a progressive that spoke up when wrongs were being done.
And you would use it against him? Or twist his words into something they are not for the sake of proving that your belief is superior to others?

But this is a duzy.
"Good grief! Do you remember who George W. Bush named as his favorite philosopher?"

So if Jeffery Dormer liked Beethoven his music must be shit.
And if Karl Rove says something nice about Mother Teresa she must have been a whore.
Talk about letting the right wing define people.

[onager]

63. Well, EVERYBODY uses them out of context.

Which is just another way of proving the Bible is such a confusing collection of codswallop, you can find support for just about any position in it.

BTW, that's Jeffrey DAHMER. A dormer is a window. You're welcome.

The original poster clearly challenged anyone to provide a case where The Message Of Jebus was used as right-wing talking points. I did that.

[Critters2]

35. That first quote is a reference to the way people react to progressive values...

not a statement of those values themselves. To see an example of what Jesus was talking about, go to any Palin rally and watch how the crowd reacts at any reference to progressive values...civil rights, women's rights, peace, any progressive value gets them stirred into an angry crowd. That's what Jesus was talking about...presenting peace and justice to a world that doesn't want them really pisses people off, divides households, creates division. He was telling his followers to hold firm through such violence, to keep teaching progressive values, keep working for justice and peace in spite of the violent loons at the Palin rallies.

[zeemike]

47. Once again you have put it well, and in a modern context n/t

[Critters2]

49. Thank you! It's why I make the big bucks!

:hi:

[donco6]

37. "I am the way the truth and the life . . .

no one comes to the father but through me." - Jesus.

Yeah, so is that the .01 we can disagree with?

[SwampG8r]

59. i dont know who has been teachin you your jesus

but my jesus said

"there are but 2 commmandments love god and love your brother
for how can you love god who you have not seen but hate your brother who you have seen"


there are no qualifications on jesus love for mankind
he wanted us all to be our best to one another

[donco6]

61. You can't pick and choose your Jesus.

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.( John 14:6)

You really don't want to get into a Bible war with me.

[TankLV]

9. Ain't THAT the truth!

knuckle draggers...

[akwapez]

11. Just like a broken clock that's right twice a day, you don't follow it all day n/t

edited to add that if I read the thread all the way through, I would have seen Zenmaster already had the clock comment

[4lbs]

4. Let's see what Earl says on the matter....

[msongs]

5. what's the story about monkeys and typewriters? nt

[Zenmaster]

6. Sure...so's a broken clock sometimes.

[holiday]

18. oh whenever a republican fundie starts talking about

wealth accumulation and how they vote republican because they think people who are wealthy have worked hard for their money (Paris Hilton for example? lol) that they should be able to keep as much of that money as they can.

So then I bring up Jesus' teachings and how Apostle Paul lived with the followers which does sound "communnists" it leaves them speechless and nothing left to say to defend themselves. It actually says in the Bible that it will be hard for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

[demwing]

23. The WHOLE quote (you'll like this, I betcha!)

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"

So, is it impossible for a rich man to enter heaven?

Nope.

In days of old, the gate by which you entered a city was often a small door in a great stone arch, shaped similarly to the eye of a needle, much like this:



For a camel (a pack animal) to enter the eye of the needle, you would first have to unpack your goods, then the camel would have to kneel to enter.

In this way, a rich person would first have to detach oneself from their possessions, and then kneel (show humility) to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Not impossible, but not at all easy, especially when you've invested a lifetime in accumulating possessions, and judged yourself by the amount of wealth you've amassed.

[AspenRose]

58. Wow.

:thumbsup:

[backscatter712]

20. It's amazing how many people...

clothe themselves in the trappings of Christianity - wear crosses, carry Bibles, profess their faith in Jesus Christ, and at the same time, Just Don't Get It. They proclaim their faith, yet act hatefully and in the opposite way of what Jesus taught. They're the modern-day Pharisees.

When I think of what it means to be a Christian, I think of "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." I think of the Sermon of the Mount. I think of Jesus hanging out with prostitutes, beggars and (gasp) tax collectors to help them learn how to live better and become better people.

Jesus is a liberal, folks!

[demwing]

27. So if Jesus is a liberal... and if Jesus is God...

and if conservatives hate liberals, then God must be a liberal, and conservatives must hate God!


OK, I get it now. The hate, the fear, the greed, the lies....Conservativism is based on the hate of God. It really makes sense now.

[Critters2]

50. Yep. That's pretty much it. nt

[lisa58]

24. let the dead bury their dead

[TheCoxwain]

26. what exactly did cheney reap ? ... he sowed a lotta shit around..

not to say bible is wrong

[demwing]

28. There will be a special level of hell for Dick Cheney

where he wears a MASSIVE chain, painfully locked to his penis, and a host of mischievous little sub-demons will follow him for eternity, laughing at him, poking him, and taunting him in Sara Palin's voice "Hey Dick Chainy, nice Weapon of Mass Destruction ya got there, dontcha know!" There will be an annoying laugh track. Every few days, some demon will shoot Cheney in the face with a shotgun, and then Cheney will have to apologize for the trouble. More laugh track will follow...

[crazy_vanilla]

31. I respect Christians, many good people among them

I personally have exited the church forever because of the bad kind of Christians who spread fear, divisiveness, and holier-than-thou attitude which I cannot stand.

Since then my view of God has undergone a transformation. I do not think we can perceive or describe God with our 5 senses. He is not the angry grandpa with the white beard who will toss you mercilessly into Hell if you do not do what your preacher-de-jour tells you to do. For me this has been a long and painful process full of fear instilled in me by the church. I am now free!!!

And whether you believe in God or not, you will agree that there are good and bad people among any group of people and bad people will use any means available to influence and scare other people for various reasons. With or without a Bible.

[crankychatter]

36. Every day I wake up grateful and say thank you to the god I don't believe in because...

Yesterday, I didn't get what was coming to me.

I have to love justice... but I love grace even more.

[Motown_Johnny]

43. I also take great comfort in the knowledge that the world is not fair or just.

Just consider for a moment what the world would be like if all the people who are innocent victims actually deserved the terrible things that happen to them.

The world would then need to be populated by a huge number of evil people.

Thank God that isn't the case

[crankychatter]

52. keeps ME from whining, I'll tell ya... all the unmerited human suffering in this world?

my itty bitty challenges ain't jack

[Motown_Johnny]

39. are you suggesting an angry mob should attack Palin and McCain?

[donheld]

62. Twice a day, you just have to admit,

a broken clock is right.