Doesn't matter if the docs are real or not - Shrub is very damaged by it

[ruggerson]

Ordinary folk don't follow the minutiae of this kind of stuff. They register the fact that Bush got into the guard unfairly, when other kids were getting killed, and that while he was there he didn't even bother to fulfill his duties.

That's about as in depth as the vast majority is going to get with this thing. Just like when the Swiftsmearers were utterly discredited, the average voter's doubts about Kerry had been raised. They only knew, vaguely, that doubts had been raised about Kerry's service record. But enough to plant the seed of doubt.

It doesn't matter one whit whether the documents are originals or fakes, because they're only one small part of the AWOL story anyway. And it's all the different parts of the story that are coming together to raise real doubts about shrub's credibility.

I hope the controversy continues about whether they're real or faked. It keeps the story alive and as long as the story is alive it keeps damaging Bush.

Just wait till the next round of polls. :)

[renotyme]

1. put down the koolaid friend

it matters a great deal, if the public perceives that there is a 'dirty tricks' campaign being waged supported by forged documents, this will innoculate bush against the very true allegations that his service in the national guard was less than he claimed and less than honorable.

best to stick with the proven facts than make hay from suspect documents.

the proven facts are sufficiently damning, there is no need to 'buttress' the case with fraud, it will likely backfire.

[Mick Knox]

6. Damn Right

Wingers will be screaming it until election day.

I cant believe everyone fell for the Rove ploy so easily.

That was the intent and that is what will happen.

[ruggerson]

7. Wrong "friend"

This story was generated by the news media. Kerry's campaign has zero/zilch to do with it. They can sit back and watch as it unfolds.

And, again, there is enough to hang Bush with or without these documents being credible. I think they probably are, but it has no relevance.

And as for dirty tricks, if the public is not going to respond negatively to Swiftsmears and the hundred other Nixonian things this disgusting administration has done, a couple of memos aren't going to sway anyone in either direction.

[demwing]

10. What Fraud?

Do you have evidence that the papers were fraud?

Everything I've heard indicates that they are legitimate, and all the so called anomolies are EASILY explained.

Again, what fraud are you talking about?

[renotyme]

19. the hypothetical of this thread is that the docs are fraudulent

the documents may or may not prove to be fraudulent, but it would not be prudent to start hyping them while very legitimate questions exist concerning their legitimacy.

hopefully the docs will prove real, but that remains to be seen.

[demwing]

25. The thread is exploring the question of whether it matters

one bit if the documents are fake or real. On that, I might agree with you, because it does matter, long run. But I also believe the original poster is correct. People have a short attention span. Some out there will only remember that Bush has questionable military records

And though I can accepty your statement that "there is no need to 'buttress' the case with fraud" I reject what you are implying, which is that we are buttressing the case with fraud. At least, you see to believe so...

Why else would you warn someone against traveling down the path of ignorant groupthink ("don't drink the koolaid") unless you believe we have already stepped onto that path?

I see no fraud, and hear only homespun rumors of fraud.

[pacalo]

2. It does matter if the documents are real. Democrats don't have to

lie to prove coWard's character. Only Repugs would stoop that low.

[AlCzervik]

3. It matter s a great deal that these documents are the real thing

It means much more that they are real and not some whispering campaign. I dont want to run things they way republicans do, the truth is like sunshine, it makes everything smell better.

[Frodo]

4. It matters.

If they're forgeries, THAT is what the story is going to be. And any other accusations of this type will fall by the wayside. If there's a hint of connection to the campaign the race will be over.

The good news is that it now looks like there are SO many mistakes that it is an amateurish forgery. Unlikely anyone at a high level in the campaign would produce such poor work.

I now think CBS was probably duped by friends/associates of the deceased CO who produced it themselves. Probably someone sympathetic to Kerry, but not affiliated with the campaign.

But it will take the issue off the table.

[johnfunk]

5. I think they're crude forgeries.

In fact, the first thing that went through my mind when I heard that Little Green Snotballs, Brent "Ginger Git" Bozell and Matt Drudge were suddenly claiming that they were forgeries was the very same one that Lambert at Corrente had:

They were forged and planted at the behest of Karl Rove... and perhaps CBS was on to it.. in which case CBS would have the story that would bring down the White House

[Protected]

11. I'm skeptical of them as well, but CBS News has said this:

"As is standard practice at CBS News, the documents in the 60 Minutes report were thoroughly examined and their authenticity vouched for by independent experts," CBS News said in a statement. "As importantly, 60 Minutes also interviewed close associates of Colonel Jerry Killian. They confirm that the documents reflect his opinions and actions at the time."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml

[Ready4Change]

23. What is DOD's motive for releasing forged documents?

.

[Mz Pip]

8. If we have to rely on lies

to get elected then we really aren't any better than BushCo.

I'm sick of lies. I don't give a rat's ass who is telling them. It is bad for the process and bad for the country. THere is plenty of true crap on Bush to focus on without resorting to made up stuff.

MzPip
:dem:

[shivaji]

27. Exactly right....now valuable days will be lost in talking about

forged docs in the MSM instead of jobs, outsourcing,
cost of health care, Iraq, 1000 soldiers dead,
balooning deficits.....all issues helping Kerry.

[Julian English]

9. The real damage was done by the analysis in NY Times and Boston Globe

The Globe story, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x809595 , points out that * did not show for duty. That is arguably desertion under article of UCMJ--for which a deserter can face death.

The analysis linked to in the NY Times is amazingly thorough.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x766749

The summary thoroughly damns *

"The following analysis of President Bush's (Bush) military
records and the controlling legal authorities shows the following
beyond any reasonable doubt:
* The pay records released by the White House this past winter
prove Bush received unauthorized, i.e., fraudulent, payments
for inactive duty training, even if he did show up for duty.
* The memorandum from Lieutenant Colonel (Retired) Albert C.
Lloyd, who affirmed for the White House that Bush met his
retention/retirement year point requirement, is an
obfuscation, or outright deception, that disregarded Bush's
failure to meet the statutory and regulatory fiscal year
satisfactory participation requirement.
* Bush's superiors in the Texas Air National Guard failed to
take required regulatory actions when Bushed missed required
training and failed to take his flight physical.
* Despite seemingly laudatory comments, Bush's May 1972 officer
performance report was a clear and unmistakable indication
that his performance had declined from the annual 1971
report. The report was the kiss of death before he left for
Alabama that year.
* Bush did not meet the requirements for satisfactory
participation from 1972 to 1973."

It finds fraud, AWOL, and conspiracy.

What would be nice is to get the focus back on the fact that * did not serve.

[Dogmudgeon]

12. There's only one course of action

Wait until all of the documents are authenticated or busted.

It should be SOP in every situation relying on old documents.

All documents.

Every situation.

--bkl

[Ready4Change]

13. It matters to me.

I do not believe in winning at any cost. I beleive in winning fair and square, and using my opponents cheating nature against him.

[ruggerson]

20. you're confusing

Political reality with ethics.

Ethically, sure, no one with a good sense of right and wrong would forge documents or lie about someone's heroism in war.

But the sad reality is that from a purely political, strategic standpoint, those kind of tactics sometimes are effective.

The Kerry campaign can't be hurt by this, since this is a media generated story. So there is only upside for us.

Bush is damaged simply by this whole issue being raised and further information coming out. And the longer the story stays afloat, the more damage he suffers.

Btw, have you donated to Texans For Truth? :)

[Ready4Change]

22. Don't think I'm confused, but I am curious.

The idea that mixing pilotics and ethics = confusing is only valid if everyone accepts it as valid. I do not. If I did accept that, then I would be a Bush supporter, as they clearly make better use of falsehood than anyone else in the American Political arena.

On another line of thought here, I am curious. Since these documents came from the DOD (if I understand correctly) what exactly is seen as the DOD's motive for falsifying them?

[kikiek]

14. I think it makes sense that they exist. Also I think CBS would have

researched it very carefully before airing. Their reputation is at stake here. You know his not showing up for duty should have generated some sort of disciplinary action. I heard today it would be activation or even jail. Also I think it is time to bring back the guy who surfaced last year who witnessed the shredding of documents at Karen Hughes order. Don't forget the wife of the guy whose campaign he worked on. She's being ignored, but adds to the puzzle. Says he was sent to work on the campaign because he was an embarassment. Don't bury the information. Just put it all together.

[gospelized]

15. why

why on earth have you people allowed the pathetic know-nothing FREEPERS to make you question something like this?

everything they have claimed about the documents is easily disproven.

they are real.

THE WHITE HOUSE RELEASED THE SAME DOCUMENTS!

so if they are fake, the white house is guilty of releasing forged documents.

we have nothing to worry about.

[AmerDem]

16. The files ARE real!

60 minutes would not ruin their great reputation by not doing a full examination of the files. Drop this repuke talking point!

[KC21304]

17. They are not fake.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x779640#779813

[Julian English]

18. tabletalk at salon has a nice thread on this.

http://tabletalk.salon.com/webx?[e-mail].0@.7739b7ad

[bklyncowgirl]

21. Wrong, if the documents are fakes, Kerry will be damaged seriously

The Rove machine will spin this as a desperate attempt to smear the president by the Kerry campeign and the mainstream media.

The American people will be disgusted.

We of course will speculate that it is a Republican plant. We will not be able to prove anything.

These people are unscrupulous and evil.

[oasis]

24. Lucky stiff gets to campaign in Alabama while draftees are getting shot at

in Vietnam. That doesn't come off too well either.

[scared]

26. It doesn't matter whether they're real or not............

Nothing will touch him. People just aren't going to care. Any even if they did, he will just steal the election again. Sorry for the apparent defeatist attitude, but I don't think these bastards are going to just hand over the reigns of power. Just not going to happen, have too many wars to get under their belts.