CNN has consulted 'document experts' to dispel CBS story

[spanone]

I don't think they went to these lengths to discredit the swift boat liars??? These people are totally shameless. 'All experts agree' (bullshit) that it's impossible to know the authenticity when all we have is copies. CNN should fold shop. NOW!!!!!

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. What sort of an expert would make a judgement without

asking to see the originals????? NO expert would. Case Closed.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The_Casual_Observer]

8. How do you know what CBS has?

Did you see what they have?

You don't know shit about shit.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Protected]

26. Dan Rather said that they only had photocopies

Do you think he knows "shit about shit" regarding his own story?

He also said that the documents being analyzed on the internet have been "photocopied, faxed, and scanned" so it's safe to assume that CBS has higher generation copies than what was posted on their website.

[silvermachine]

52. Can we PLEEEZE...

...tombstone this idiot once and for all????????? He's had a long ride and has caused a great deal of trouble and dissention but his time is up. Just like his fearful leader *.

[The_Casual_Observer]

53. Every site has a mascot dissenter

This is DU's I think.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

60. Back to Hobbiton....

RiP

[OilemFirchen]

62. Praise Jeebus!

No more weasel stink!

[SoCalDemocrat]

12. Swifties

Where was CNN when they ran the SwiftBoat attacks?

Did they ask to see the Vietnam Records of the SwiftBoat vets to confirm their claims?

No one asked for them. Well one reporter did, I think it was CBS actually, and Thurlow refused to provide his records.

CNN is a joke. Every day I watch their coverage all I see is bias.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

9. However, Mr. Frodo

It is quite clear the documents are authentic.

The cries of forgery are nothing but a smokescreen put up in desperation by political operatives and internet tin-foilers, the "experts" consulted nothing but the sort of cheap hacks that perpetrate junk science in a variety of venues before unsophisticated rubes. It is all contrived to try and shift attention from the fact that the Crawford coward has been lying for years about his evasion of the draft and his shirking of even the limited duties of his cushy billet, and that this means the wretch is not only a coward but a fraud, whose word cannot be taken on any matter whatsoever.

"False in one, false in all."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The_Casual_Observer]

19. "I come up with turns in to a dead end"

Considering the source, that is no surprise.

[Frodo]

31. At least I don't make it up as I go along.

No comment on the "copies" issue I was so full of it on a second ago?

[The_Casual_Observer]

46. Exactly where is it written that what CBS has were xeroxes?

The network is defending the authenticity of the memos, which were obtained by CBS News' "60 Minutes," saying experts who examined the memos concluded they were authentic documents produced by Mr. Bush's former commander, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian.

Please supply quote or link.

[Beetwasher]

22. The Burden Is To Prove They Are Forgeries, Not That They Are NOT Forgeries

CBS has recieved documents that for all intent and purpose look authentic. Internet rumour mongerers claim they are forgeries based on nonsense, so far. If you or anyone else doubt CBS, put up your evidence, or shut up. The massive preponderance of evidence suggests authenticity, backed up by EXPERT witness testimony on CBS just now. Did you wathch? Either you are blind or willfully ignorant to suggest the burden is now on CBS to STILL prove their documents are NOT forgery. That's ludicrous and you know it.

Theory of the crime? What crime? What sort of nonsensical gobbledy gook are you trying to pawn off as an argument?

[dennis4868]

34. right.....

it would be like demanding CBS to prove that the video tape of the man on the moon is real.....the burden is on the crazy people out there to disprove it....

[Frodo]

35. Yes and no. It would all depend on the source.

If they aren't from an official source and we don't KNOW who the source is (especially with some of the contradictory stories), there's a burden of proof on both sides.

By "theory of the crime" I just mean a plausable story for how they came to be. Not "a superscript 'th' is possible on a machine with variable spacing" but evidence that such a machine was ever used in that office. An idea of WHO created it if it's a personal CYA memo but he couldn't type and it lacked all the halmarks of a military secretary's work.

And it's not "internet rumor mongers" and partisan hacks any more. They started it, but it's every major news organization now. And a few of them have their own "expert witnesses" and they picked the easiest two or three claims to debunk. They've barely scratched the surface.

[papau]

44. "lacked all the hallmarks of a military secretary's work"?-Mil Secr's I've

known were super good - and at a Lt Col level in the sticks you are a big muck-a muck and had the best.

"They've barely scratched the surface" - ? - I suggest you are trying too hard to move the credibility requirement to CBS - and to take it off of the folks who have had every "its really Microsoft word" argument torn apart.

Even CNN is now going with a quote "without seeing the originals I can not tell" -

Do you really want to hang your hat on that "without seeing the originals" strong? statement?

No matter - the game was to put "forgery" into the news cycle for one day - now that it can not be sustained Rove will drop the attack by his surrogates -

hell - Rove has won - just as the media wanted him too (those GOPers are so good at handling the media! :-) )

We disprove but no one will remember anything other than there was an attack that came with the word forgery - and no one will ask Bush to explain his lack of a Court Martial for disobeying a direct order.

[papau]

51. I should note that Exec and Composer had proportional - the other

Selectrics had a Times Roman ball - and Times Roman is defined as proportional - but the Selectrics that were not "Composer" did not do true proportional

[Beetwasher]

56. Bullshit

What utter crap.

The burden of proof is on people making claims that they are forgeries. The docs were cleared by the WH. So they must be in on it.

Why is it you so faithfully spew these idiotic talking points.

The "th" was obviously on OTHER docs released by the WH.

Barely scratched the surface? LOL! Yeah, right ok. You are as transparent as ever.

[geek tragedy]

23. Seriously, what kind of evidence do you want?

You're pushing the right-wing talking points real hard on this. Why not believe Dan Rather instead of LGF and Instapundit?

What is so goddamn compelling about the rightwing arguments?

[silvermachine]

54. Answer...

NONE. He's not interested. He is here to disrupt. The fact that it took so long for people on this board to finally wake up and speak out concerning this RW shill after well over 1,000 pro-GOP posts is the only thing more amazing than Frodo's bullshit.

"You're pushing the right-wing talking points real hard on this"

Only on this? How about nonstop pro-* economic spewing for oh, I'd say about 2000 posts?

"What is so goddamn compelling about the rightwing arguments?"

Absolutely nothing. He's here for a purpose. To disrupt. He should have been tombstoned ages ago.

[dennis4868]

24. "There has been no rational explanation for how those documents came to be

created....."

did you not watch the cbs news....they had a guy from the TANG who said thats how business was done there....get your ears check....

[The Magistrate]

30. Hardly, Mr. Frodo

The gentleman who identified the signatures is quite authoritative.

The persons attempting to poke holes in the matter have no access to any but very degraded copies.

There is no mystery at all about an experienced bureaucrat, and a colonel of militia in a politicized unit is nothing if not that, writing down his actions in such matters and keeping copies of the writing: it would be a matter of some amazement to discover he had not.

There is not one element of these documents that is discordant with the known record of the case; they simply supply the words of the C.O. most directly concerned.

You will have to be a little more specific, Sir, concerning what you find so difficult about this matter, if you wish to make any impression.

"The louder he talked of his honor, the quicker we counted our spoons."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Frodo]

37. As have been the "experts" who disagree.

And all he was able to say was that it was the guy's signature. He couldn't possibly know if it was copied on to the document since all they have is copies.

And there are a handful of discordant elements. I'll send some to you directly - I tire of being assumed to be working for the other side.

But it's time to put the kids to bed - I'll get back to you.


BTW - I just got linked to an article written by CBS's expert. It's all about how to game the "expert witness" system to your benefit. Looks like it's an "expert witness for hire" website.

[SoCalDemocrat]

40. Ring

Frodo you've clearly been wearing the evil ring for too long.

Get with today's info. The docs look legit.

[The Magistrate]

41. But The Signatures Differ, Sir

They are not identical, but vary in many ways, while remaining within the same recognizeable family form.

You are postulating a huge and sophisticated effort, and there is not a shred of evidence for that.

"LERT'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Beetwasher]

57. I Saw The Other "Expert" That NBC Had

His points were total bullshit. Nothing he said made sense. Because the type on the letterhead was CENTERED he doubted the authenticity because that would be "hard" to do. That was his biggest point. What crap.

You're either deluded or full of shit.

[tabasco]

33. Your judgment appears unsound.

Documents and photographs are authenticated, not only by examination of the documents, but with all relevant evidence. For example, the statement of a person that he had produced the document.
Are you really stating that you believe, from all available evidence, this document is a forgery? I hope you never get jury duty. The ONLY evidence that this document is a forgery is the statements of political operatives that it is a forgery. That's enough to sway you though, huh??

The great weight of evidence indicates that Bush did not satisfactorily complete his service obligation.

[LittleClarkie]

42. I just hope

It sticks.

I need something in the way of ammo for those folks around me who like to push each other in the arm and then say, "Oh look I hurt myself. I'd better get a Purple Heart."

When I replied that those claims had been refuted, one of them said, "Then how come the military is talking about taking Kerry's medals away."

First I'd heard of it, so I asked, "Who said that?"

"The TV."

I tried again, "But who said that specifically."

"The TV. Ya know. That box up there!" he said as he pointed at the pub's 27-incher. "The Tee-Vee!"

That's when I snapped, "Box talk. Me listen. No question."

Help me. I live in Bush Country.

[KoKo]

25. Frodo, your case for "competition" would have been true about 15 years

ago...but one would assume your experience here on DU would have awakened you to the fact that the Media Business is run by a Pravda Cabal....I applaud Viacom and CBS for breaking the mold.

;-)'s to you....

[Frodo]

29. Ok, but then.. wouldn't ALL the rest have an incentive to slam them>

Still "competition", right?

[w4rma]

49. Competition for the "King's" favor (nt)

[TWiley]

50. I stayed at the New Yorker Hotel (CNN HQ) during the RNC, and

the Republican bias was striking on the part of the CNN employees (they were wearing laminated name tags)

CNN had taken over the Tic Toc Diner in order to feed their employees. The diner had an entrance into the hotel lobby where the "official" Republican Convention souvenirs were sold. At times the diner, the lobby, and the bar opposite the diner, was full of their employees.

Many sported "bush buttons", pro-bush dialog was everywhere, and their employees would cheer or clap when bush was on TV in the bar.

I was wearing a John Kerry button and immediately got into a heated debate with two CNN employees. A discussion which they instigated.

So Mr. Frodo, I suspect that far and away from any competitive bias which may be present between news organizations, a more likely motive would be a pure conservative bias on the part of some of their employees as was so painfully obvious during the Republican National Convention in NYC last week.

In retrospect, I do not believe that I witnessed any attempt by their employees to hide their affiliation.

[City Lights]

3. Let them.

As Rather said, the other organizations don't have the same documents that CBS has so they are comparing apples to horse shit.

[shoopnyc123]

4. No they didn't go that far..

...so now it's REALLY clear...

[Beetwasher]

6. The Swifters Didn't Even HAVE Documents to Check! That's How Flimsy It Was

All the docs supported Kerry. It's shameful. Disgusting and shameful and frightening.

[SoCalDemocrat]

38. Swifties had docs

The Swifties could of signed releases on their own Vietnam records, but they refused to do so.

[John_H]

7. So, will a dem surrogate call them on it , on air? No? Go ahead CNN.

[Kimber Scott]

13. That's the sad part. Maybe, CNN needs to be set up. Should be easy.

They don't do any real journalism. They just repeat whatever anybody tells them. Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

[bagnana]

11. I hate them!

CBS's finding of authenticity was based upon

(1) examination of the documents they received by an expert
(2) examination of the signatures on the documents they received
(3) corroboration with those who knew the author to evaluate truthfulness of the contents of the documents
(4) corroboration with those who knew the circumstances at the time to evaluate the truthfulness of the contents of the documents.

Based upon this, they reached the conclusion the documents were valid.

What does CNN say?

that the documents may not be genuine based upon expert review.

DOES CNN LOOK INTO THE TRUTH OF THE CONTENTS? NO! Why not? BECAUSE CNN KNOWS THE CONTENTS ARE ACCURATE AND THEY HAVE NO BASIS FOR CONTESTING THOSE CONTENTS!!!! It is so damn obvious.

They are protecting the COWARD who refused to show up for duty, ran from his physical, and went AWOL. It is so obvious.

[liberal_in_GA]

17. So what email at cnn are you using to bash them?

Wolf Blitzkrieg's or general?

[nolajazz]

14. You mean CNN still insists the doc was forged even after Dan debunked it?

[MaineDem]

15. Attacking the source and not the substance

Rather said they'd do this.

[papau]

18. Wash Post' Dobbs and CNN Experts say "uncommon" - not same font as other

documents the Post has seen!

Can we say the Wash Post Dobbs and Editor Leonard Downie are in shit up to the eyes - and if Downie's past is a predictor of the future - he will never admit error because he is a corporate whore with no ethics.

From Cnn:

"The Washington Post says the "60 Minutes" documents are not consistent with other documents released by Bush's Air National Guard unit in the early '70's.

"If you compare the documents that CBS produced with the documents that we know to be authentic, that did come from Bush's National Guard unit, none of those documents use proportionate spacing. And that's only one of the anomalies," says the Post's Michael Dobbs.

Experts contacted by CNN say there are some inconsistencies in the type style and formatting -- noting those styles then existed on typewriters but were not common. They also say only a review of the original documents -- not copies -- can completely resolve the matter."

[dennis4868]

36. fuck the wash. post.....

statements made by Bush leading up to the war with Iraq regarding the reasons for the war = NO ATTENTION!

TANG memos that show Bush was AWOL = THEY GET EXPERTS AND AMALYZE IT 24/7

UP IS DOWN, DOWN IS UP!

[EST]

43. Gotta remember -CNN,FOX,

"Scoop" hairball, all were pre-recoreded earlier today. They all like to take Fridays off!

[zeemike]

20. I can see you guys are catching on to the game

you stop covering the story when it has left the impression you want.
In this case the "question of forgery" has been raised and so they drop it now and the story is dead with the impression that it was all forged.

[dennis4868]

21. I don't think they went to these lengths.....

and not for the lies leading up to the war in Iraq...you know, small stuff like lies about WMD and Sdaam/911 connections....

[City Lights]

27. Who is it?

Mr. Sumsay?

[KoKo]

28. Forget CNN....e-mail Rather & CBS with thanks for standing up! Address:

[e-mail]

[spanone]

59. Did it. E-mailed CBS thanking Rather and the network for their stand.

Rather is no Hannity or O'reilly. He will not roll over and play dead. He's dealt with much smarter presidents than bush*.

[oasis]

32. Hope springs eternal for "DUers" who are praying that the docs are fakes.

:bounce:

[mzmolly]

39. I was thinking the same thing! They gave sooo friggin much air time to

the "liars" without much question. Then when Bush gets a taste of an actual issue, HIS corporate media scrambles to protect him.

[papau]

45. Welcome to the media game where Corporate Media = GOP whore

sigh

:-)

[Clinton Crusader]

47. I would have been ORGASMIC

if they went to these lengths to investigate the SBL allegations. Good God, they believed that lock stock and barrel, but this has brought on a news frenzy that may delay 9/11 programs!
:kick:

[K. F. Gibbons]

48. ROVE IS IN COMPLETE AND ABSOLUTE CONTROL.

[kwolf68]

55. Great point

They didn't give a 2nd look when the SwiftSlimeVets came out...They just rolled that bullshit right out for public consumption. Have they done many stories on the now debunked Swiftboat Group? Have they? Have they?

Now they are doing any and everything they can to challenge these allegations proving Bush to be a liar and a coward.

I am amazed at how gross CNN has become. I imagine Ted Turner is about ready to stick his head into the toilet and flush. This is akin to turning the Kennedy Space Center into the Tom DeLay Center or something...it's damn near blasphemy.

CNN is total, useless, garbage and they must be challenged with an assertive position.They are destroying (or trying) democracy.

[Skidmore]

58. These cable stations are always trying to sink

the broadcast networks for market share. Sometimes I think it is just as simple as that. We've all seen the cable networks diss each other on a regular basis. Keeping the election a neck-and-neck horse race makes for viewers and ratings. Yep, they're gaming alright.

[spanone]

63. Dan Rather has more integrity than the whole CNN staff.

I saw footage of Rather interviewing bush 1 about Iran/Contra and poppa bush was a total fucking asshole. Rather must be feeling a bit of 'payback time'.

[Catfight]

61. Will CNN demand Bush answer the questions? Because the documents

have been authenticated TODAY on 9/11.

Bush has many more cover-ups to answer to, let's start today.

[sundog]

64. Would they have spent 1/8th of the time to investigate swiftboat claims?

of course not

[Beetwasher]

65. A Kick for Someone's New TOMBSTONE!! LOL!!

A long time propoganda pusher has finally been dealt with...Back to The Shire for a certain, extremely disingenuous someone...