Time Mag Online: If Howard Dean Were the Candidate ...

[Larkspur]

Flip-flops wouldn't be the issue; Iraq would. A look at what might have been

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101041004-702123,00.html

Political punditry is harder than it looks. That's what a lot of Democratic voters must be thinking right about now. Last winter Democratic-primary voters played political consultant. They tried to step inside the minds of swing voters and figure out which Democratic presidential candidate could beat George W. Bush. With an eye cast coldly on November, they rejected the man who had first won their hearts, Howard Dean, and flocked to the more "electable" choice, John Kerry. Among New Hampshire voters who said beating Bush was their biggest concern, Kerry beat Dean by a whopping 52 points.

Democratic voters should stick to their day jobs. With just five weeks until Election Day, there's reason to believe they guessed wrong — that Dean would be doing better against Bush than Kerry is. Yes, it's too late for Democrats to switch horses, but imagining how Dean might have done sheds light on what's going on now. Here's the logic:

Americans are upset about Iraq. Less than half of voters approve of Bush's handling of the war or say that it is going well or that it has made America safer. This frustration gives Democrats the national-security opportunity they've been waiting for. But so far, Kerry has blown it. By voting to authorize war, then criticizing it in the Democratic primaries, then saying he would have voted yes again — even if he had known that Saddam didn't have weapons of mass destruction — he has made his Iraq contortions, rather than the war itself, the issue. Even last week, as Kerry stepped up his attacks, Bush continued to evade them with one devastating word: flip-flop.

If Dean were the nominee, flip-flops wouldn't be the issue; Iraq would. The former Vermont Governor opposed the war from the start, and his rationale was as simple as Kerry's was convoluted: Saddam was not a threat. Of course, Dean would have had other general-election vulnerabilities. Republicans would have branded him the second coming of peacenik George McGovern. But Dean could have retorted that he (unlike Kerry) backed the first Gulf War. They would have ridiculed his lack of foreign policy experience. But there's an advantage to not having 20 years of Senate votes to defend, as Kerry has learned. (That's part of the reason Governors usually make stronger presidential candidates than Senators.)
<SNIP>

[molly]

1. Isn't Time owned by the Sauds?

[jtb33]

10. Uh, no...

Time is part of "Time Warner" which is a publicly traded company. If anyone would be considered the "owner" it would be Ted Turner.

[Minstrel Boy]

12. Here's a list of Time Warner's major holders:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=TWX

By far, most are institutional.

[Toucano]

39. It can't end there, though.

Don't you have to know who owns the "institutional and mutual fund" owners are?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. woulda shoulda coulda

lets focus on the future...

wonder who said that. (howard dean did, just yesterday)

and instead of flip flops they would have focused on apparant anger and apparant inexperience and would have called him a friend of terrorists

[mainer]

3. I've been thinking this same thing for weeks

If only...



"Dated Dean. Married Kerry. Still miss Dean."

[The Chronicler]

27. Dean is a shitty debator and probably would have lost vs. Bush

Rove would have turned the election into an all out culture war. If there's anyone who could really lose a debate to Bush, it would be Dean. It sounds odd, but in many way Dean was sort of the Democrats' version of WBush. An effective candidate if he can be handled properly. The problem is he wasn't handled properly.

[ScreamingMeemie]

45. "Democrats' version of WBush"???? ROFL. Thanks for making my

day. Dean is still helping me to believe that someday, however distant, I'll get back the party I was once so proud of.

[goodwalt]

79. Not productive-but I can't help myself

All out culture war? Dems version of W? From the number of your post I have to assume you are not a freeper- so I'm going to excuse your trangression as simple ignorance. Dean was just the first 2004 victim of the media machine that we see reporting 14% polling leads for W and elevating the "swift vote veterans for bull shit" top national prominence. Dean was eloquent, articulate ane RIGHT at almost every turn. We all lost something when the lemmings took control of the primaries- but not nearly as much as we will lose if Rove and Co. get four more years to run this country and democracy as a concept into the ground. No, this was not "productive" commentary, but neither is cheap shots at Dean.

[Zomby Woof]

93. cannot agree

Bush in 2000 was an ultraconservative masquerading as a moderate, whereas Dean this past year did it from the opposite tack - a moderate pretending to be a populist liberal.

Coulda. shoulda. woulda... Dean may be a good guy for all I know, and I appreciate his presence in our party, but he isn't the liberal his fanbase thinks he is, and THAT was a source of exasperation for us old-time hardcore Dems who saw right through him. Alas, that is politics.

All this rehashing is pointless. We MUST dwell on the present and immediate future, and not all this handwringing about the past.

[Jacobin]

105. Surely you jest

:wow:

Kerry is slow, pedantic, with a 'senatorial' monotone that is overly deliberate, hedging and not at all convincing. (except for a couple of times lately when he got fired up, but then went back to sleep)

Dean's speeches and the "debates" he's had with talking heads are incredibly inervating, exceedingly perceptive, intelligent and hold back no barbs for bush*.

I think the Iowa voters called it wrong. I'm hoping in 2008, if there is anything left of this country, he can run again.

I'll wait. He's THAT good.

(obligatory of course i'm voting for Kerry, but that ain't enough to get him elected)

[Irishladdie]

31. Dean would not stand a Chance.....

You think Kerry is getting attacked, Dean would be destroyed in attacks. Lack of Experience in Defense. Dean was right about the war but that doesn't change the fact that we are in one, so therefore regardless of what anyone says, Kerry is the right man at the Right time!!!!!!!

[TheDonkey]

4. This is the media trying to destroy our party

Dean would have had as much slime thrown at him as Edwards, Clark, Gephardt or anyone else.

Kerry won the primary fair and square.

[9119495]

6. agreed. And I supported Dean

He would have been a commie who didn't even serve in his state gaurd. He was going to give us socialized medicine. Oh, and al-queda loves him.

Let's keep our eyes on the prize--not on the national media.

[wildflower]

106. Yes...we have to remember they were prepared to trash anyone:

Remember when Edwards was picked as VP? Within hours the GOP had a Web page up listing 34 reasons why he's "bad for the country" (or somesuch thing).

I'm sure they had similar dossiers prepared and written up for every single possible candidate, both the presidential and vice presidential ones.

-wildflower

[cspiguy]

5. No problem. Kerry is becoming Dean.

he is flexible.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

20. Kerry is Kerry

A pretty sensible guy. He is not becoming Dean or anyone else.

[Larkspur]

35. Thank goodness for that

I don't want Dean's reputation tarnished either.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

37. I agree.

Dean's reputation was well earned. And that's not a compliment :P

[gratuitous]

7. Bwahahahahaha!

Wow, revisionist history not even a year later! Now, Time is pretending that it was Democratic voters who grew disenchanted with Howard Dean. And that it was the voters who turned to Kerry.

Not a word, not a syllable, not a breath spent on the media's decision to replay "the scream" 866 times in the week following. Not a word about media portrayals of Dean, or how they made him out to be some kind of nutcase. Not a word. Nope, it's all those Democratic voters, and their playing at being political consultants.

Hey rube!

Sorry Time; not everyone falls for your disingenuous, self-serving analyses anymore. Your convenient winnowing of facts to obscure the media's role in building up Kerry while tearing down Dean doesn't work on people who can remember what happened just seven months ago.

So now you're all upset because the Democratic candidate doesn't do what you want him to do. Tough.

Oh, and Cheney you with a rusty chainsaw.

[Bush was AWOL]

8. I liked both Dean and Kerry equal, but Dean would've been

absolutely destroyed by the GOP and the media. They've taken it to Kerry, but it would've been much, much worse for Dean.

[LuminousX]

11. I adore Dean, Dean is amazing, Dean would have been eaten alive

by the media and the GOP. Kerry has secured man essential allies that help keep the media at bay and Kerry has an attack dog nature that can kneecap Bush when used without holding back.

Dean would have been a better choice than Gore in 2000. Right now, I do believe we have the best guy to take on Bush.

[lancdem]

13. I agree

And that's not a criticism of Dean, just an acknowledgement of reality.

[dkf]

22. "Kerry has an attack dog nature

that can kneecap Bush when used without holding back."

Hmmm... example please?

I hope you're right, but for now I am a bit, shall we say skeptical, of your assertion.

[LuminousX]

47. I point to BCCI, Iran-Contra

Kerry has a history of being able to battle messy organized political crime, which I think gives him a leg up in his battle with Bush.

In the primaries, I fully believe that he engineered a lot of the bad press Dean got. "Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean," mutters Kerry.

[Larkspur]

54. And could this be why Kerry is not liked by many Dem activists?

Kerry knows how to play dirty, but he doesn't seem to know how to play Bush-Rove's dirty game, nor does he seem to know how to inspire people, especially political neophytes, to rally for him. Bush and Rove are ruthless and they do not want to lose power. I do believe that Bush and Rove will do anything, including destroying the Constitution, to stay in power. They and their contributors have too much invested in a Bush Admin.

Dean attacked Bush using America's ideals for democracy and sense of community. That's how Dean was rallying people to his campaign. Dean also looked liked he believed in what he said. Kerry looks bored by his own words.

[formernaderite]

65. I don't think we're allowed to say this stuff out loud.....

....but heck, I'll join in. I was always a bit suspicious at Karl Rove's little jig that the GOP wanted Dean to win. A tremendous number of democrats that I know...including Dean supporters took this to mean Dean would easily be beaten. Of course Rove is always brilliant when he's completely diabolical.

[Larkspur]

41. Kerry may be an attack dog, but the Republicans...

are viscious hyenas who attack in packs. I don't think Kerry anticipated the insane and rapidly repetitive insane attacks on him.

[LuminousX]

46. Would Dean have been able to hold his own against them?

He had fewer institutional allies than Kerry does.

[Larkspur]

53. You mean to say that the Democratic Party wouldn't rally around Dean

like they did Kerry? :shrug: Wouldn't that be hyprocrisy by the Dem Establishment if they didn't do for a hypothetical Prez Nominiee Dean, like they are doing for Kerry and like Dean is doing for Kerry?

As far as Kerry's institutional allies, isn't CBS's chief supporting Bush? I'm sure the others are donating to Bush as well.

Neither the article nor Dean's supporters doubt that the Repukes would assail Dean. This article was about who would be better at standing up to Bush on Iraq. Clearly, Dean would have better against Bush on Iraq and he would be helped by Bush's blunders. Kerry can't seem to capitalize on Bush's blunders. Why?

As far as the rest of Dean's campaign, Dean's campaign was better geared to go against Bush and the Repukes than against any of the Dem candidates. Dean wasn't geared to attack Kerry's and the other Dem's campaigns with the visciousness that Kerry's, Gephardt's, Clark's did his. What brought Dean's campaign down in Iowa was a combination of events, decisions, and mistakes both inside and outside the Dean campaign, but the largest contributor was the ganging up on Dean by Gephardt, who ran a murder-suicide negative campaign against Dean, and Kerry's supporters, like former senator Torricelli of senate ethics violations fame. It was Torricelli who contributed $50K from his old senate war chest to the 527 that ran the Osama-Dean ads. Dean's errors came with falling for the negative battle with Gephardt. That hurt Dean as much as the Osama-Dean ads.

[shrub chipper]

48. agreed

The attacks on Kerry have been so ridiculous and meqan spirited that it WAS hard for any of us to take them seriously!!

I also agree that I would like to see MUCH MORE of that attack dog in the coming weeks.

[peacetalksforall]

9. Time = know-it-all-traitor to journalism, now a corporate propaganda

venue. Don't forget it.

[Francine Frensky]

14. Rove would have easily destroyed Dean by now

and Time magazine would be saying the dems should have picked Kerry.

Everybody needs to grow up and realize that the repubs could run against Mother Theresa and make her look like a sandal-wearing, tree-hugging, weak-kneed pacifist.

[Zensea]

16. This is missing the point

As are some other responses.

The point is not whether Dean would have been attacked also.
Of course he would have been attacked.
That's politics.
There's no way to know if Dean would have been doing better or worse than Kerry. That's all conjecture. I'm certainly not going to try to claim that Dean would have been doing better.

The point is that
"If Dean were the nominee, flip-flops wouldn't be the issue; Iraq would."

You may disagree with that conclusion also, but that is the real point being addressed in the article. That is the point that leads to the assertion by Time that Dean would have been doing better.

That is the point that this original post by Larkspur is calling attention to I believe.

[Toucano]

21. That's not really true.

The Flip-Flops of Howard Dean


http://slate.msn.com/id/2088207/

Flip: On Feb. 28, 1995, Dean said on CNN's Crossfire that Social Security "absolutely" needed to "increase the retirement age." According to a March 3, 1995 Newhouse News Service report on a subsequent Dean breakfast with reporters, "The way to balance the budget, Dean said, is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut almost everything else." In June 2003, Dean said on Meet the Press, "I also would entertain taking the retirement age to 68."

Flop: At a presidential candidate forum on Aug. 5, 2003, Dean said, "I have never favored Social Security retirement at the age of 70, nor do I favor one of 68."


No candidate is immune.

This conversation had no value yesterday, it has no value today, and it will have no value tomorrow.

[Zensea]

24. How does this disagree with what I wrote?

I'm sure they would have found plenty to attack Dean on.
Didn't I say that?

All I was saying is to critique the article's point. Not this silliness about the hypothetical of whether Dean would have been attacked or would have been doing better, but the central point which is that the focus would have been Iraq.

If you don't think the conversation has value stay out of it.

[Toucano]

38. Wasn't it you who said

"The point is that
"If Dean were the nominee, flip-flops wouldn't be the issue; Iraq would."

Flip-flops could very easily be the issue, as I've demonstrated.

So would Gov. Dean's military records.

No, I don't value the conversation, but I won't tolerate you saying Dean would have been immune to the flip-flop attack. It's absurd to claim that because he was attacked for flip-flopping during the primary race.

[Zensea]

52. I never said he would be immune

I said the article said Iraq would be the issue.
I was pointing to the article.
Look at what I said. I was very careful to not say he would be immune.
I said it was all conjecture.
Don't put words in my mouth please.

[Larkspur]

42. This is a meaningless counter argument.

Social Security is not related to Iraq.

Dean opposed the 2003 Iraq war, which Kerry supported, but Dean supported the 1991 Gulf war, which Kerry opposed. Dean's arguments were based upon a pragmatic view of the situation, and Dean, not Kerry or Bush, is being proved right by the events unfolding in Iraq.

[Toucano]

49. The issue isn't Social Security or Iraq

the issue is flip-flopping.

Dean would be just as vulnerable to that attack and others.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Toucano]

69. Again, it isn't true.

NEWS ANALYSIS
Flip-flopping charge unsupported by facts
Kerry always pushed global cooperation, war as last resort

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/archive/2004/09/23/KERRY.TMP

"Yet taken as a whole, Kerry has offered the same message ever since talk of attacking Iraq became a national conversation more than two years ago."

[Larkspur]

30. The implicit point this article is making is that Dean would have

capitalized on the blunders of Bush. Iraq is a blunder of epic proportion, and Kerry, who touts his foreign policy credentials, can't capitalize on that? Kerry has stumbled on this issue because of his IWR vote and subsequent votes that Kerry has tried to defend. Kerry's greatest mistake was falling for Bush's bait when Kerry said that he'd vote for IWR all over again. Kerry is out of step with the public and it shows. As much as I hate Bush and the Repukes, they are masters at maniupulating the TV soundbites and telling Americans what they think Americans want to hear.

Howard Dean would have been attacked mercilessly by the Repukes, just like any Democrat who became the nominee did. Most of us knew that way before the Iowa Caucus. But what Kerry and the pro-IWR Dems thought was that Iraq would not be the big issue it has become. Just like in 2002 when the Dems thought that voting for IWR would shift the election focus back to "pocket book" issues, where Dems are strongest, 2004 election is being consumed by Iraq and the growing insurgency. The fact that Kerry is struggling in swing states with this issue is a big warning sign.

[jpgray]

68. That's ridiculous--during the primaries the issue with Dean was 'angry'

Don't you remember? Day in and day out, Dean was too 'angry', 'hotheaded', 'Bush-bashing', etc.

What sort of delusion are you buying into that makes you think with Dean the media would suddenly focus on what a candidate is saying rather than the script they want him to fit? Are you allowing your reason to be clouded by subjective preference? Hell, you watched those same scripts destroy Dean in the primaries. He was never unelectable or angry or too liberal, but the media MADE HIM THAT WAY in the eyes of voters. And they have done the same thing with Kerry, and they would have done the same with Dean.

edit: Would things be different? Sure. Dean's stances on the Iraq invasion have always been superior to Kerry's But let's not pretend Dean has a magic 'make the media focus on issues' ray.

[Zensea]

70. How many times do I have to say

The article SAYS it,
Where do I say I agree?
Maybe I do, Maybe I don't.

You don't know if I'm buying into the delusion because I haven't said exactly what think.

Look at what I've written again and you'll see what I mean

[jpgray]

94. Ack, you're right--sorry about that

In any case, my disagreements with that point still stand--things would be DIFFERENT with Howard, but I don't know if that would mean he would be able to bring the media around to focusing on actual issues. He wasn't able to do it successfully in the primaries--the media just played up their script of him until they could bury him with it and that was it. He did have a better stance on Iraq than Kerry, but I'm not sure that the media would come around and start saying that to voters. They haven't been talking about any issues on any of the cable news programs I've watched. It's horse race, personal history minutiae, and personality caricature scripts. That's it.

[tblue37]

34. Um, wasn't she? n/t

[Raya]

15. Rove would have started the OSAMA LOVES DEAN Ads in August

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dad]

17. Time is right

"But so far, Kerry has blown it. By voting to authorize war, then criticizing it in the Democratic primaries, then saying he would have voted yes again — even if he had known that Saddam didn't have weapons of mass destruction — he has made his Iraq contortions, rather than the war itself, the issue."

No truer words ever spoken. What a horrible candidate he has been. The most important issue, by far, and he tries to either come out on the wrong side, or play both sides.

[agincourt]

75. Again though,

Kerry voted for the resolution so that the president could disarm Saddam, if he refused to let the inspectors in. Kerry did not vote to let Bush run a vanity war so that shrub could take over Odai's rape rooms. Iraq let the inspectors in but Bush invaded anyway in an illegal war NOT authorized by congress. The question should be not why Kerry flip-flopped but why that piece of texas ratshit is not being impeached for an unconstitutional war.

[Toucano]

18. Courtesy of Dookus

[Snivi Yllom]

19. no comment

:evilgrin:

[hippiechick]

23. Much as I love the Good Dr ...

He wasn't ready for prime time. He would have probably walked straight up to Cheney's front door and popped him in the jaw more than once.

Most of us would have LOVED it - myself included - but the rest of the populace would be horrified.

Dean would have been his own worst enemy, and the Pug smear machine would have had a field day with him. :(


:hippie:

[The Chronicler]

25. The media is trying to kill John Kerry

nm

[dolstein]

26. They'd have had Dean in a dress singing showtunes

Personally, I think that Dean, no less than Kerry, would be tagged as a gay-loving, God hating, French speaking, chablis swilling elitist. And anyone who thinks Dean could win the "who'll keep you safer" debate is dreaming.

Also, we shouldn't forget just how badly Dean's campaign was run. This was, after all, a guy who finished third in Iowa despite spending much more than his opponents.

I still think Edwards might have had a better shot against Bush than Kerry, but Edwards would have been hamstrung by his decisision to accept federal matching funds.

[The Chronicler]

28. I agree about Edwards.

He probably would have had the best shot. Kerry is still in this thing though. Don't count him out.

[Mike L]

74. Agree about Edwards now, but Kerry looked to be the best at the time.

Do-over!

Seriously though. If Kerry had come out and blasted Bush on Iraq and his failures on the WOT when Rove asked the "if we knew then what we know now" question, Kerry wouldn't be behind now. Rove spun his answer into a "No" and that made Kerry's recent position one 'flip' too many.

But hey, still about 5 weeks to go and the average voter's short attention span may work in our favor, for once.

[Guaranteed]

29. Democrats underestimate the value of leadership time and time again.

Consistency and clarity of message are what matter most.

[Larkspur]

33. So you're saying that Bush is a good leader?

:shrug:

He certainly has been consistant and delivered a clear message.

[Guaranteed]

61. I'm saying that he's beating us.

The way to WIN is through a clear and consistent message.

[ItsMyParty]

36. This is total horseshit designed to say to Dems "it's over you lost"

They fail to mention that if they are kicking the shit out of Kerry on Iraq who voted for it, can you imagine where Dean would be right now?? He would be known in the same breath as bin Laden. They would have him portrayed as unAmerican who would NEVER fight for this country, etc. This article is designed to play games with the minds of the Dem base and to tell them that YOUR LOSERS, YOU LOST, DON"T BOTHER VOTING. I wonder what they will be singing if the poll numbers start to swing to Kerry after the debates?????

[nancyharris]

40. If Howard Dean Were the Candidate ...

I'd be working full time for his election.

[Larkspur]

43. Ditto!!

At my Democratic Town Committee meeting last night, the Kerry supporters were whining that they couldn't get free Kerry/Edwards campaign materials -- bumperstickers, buttons, lawn signs, and campaign literature. They were told that because we are in CT, which is forcasted to go for Kerry, that they'd have to purchase those materials out of their own pocket.

When I ran Dean Meetups, I purchased those materials out of my own pocket. I understood that an insurgent campaign didn't have the funds and even after Dean broke Clinton's fundraising record twice, I knew that that money. $2,000 of which was my donation, was needed in Iowa and New Hampshire, so I didn't mind using my own money to get the stuff. Most people who came to my Dean Meetup reimbursed me, and the few who didn't, I didn't mind because showing support is what attracts the attention of uncommitted and undecided voters to look at your candidate.

[ClassWarrior]

103. Waaahhhh... they won't give us any signs... WAAAHHHHH...

FWIW, there are plenty of people buying Kerry signs in bulk and doing the same think you say you did with Dean signs.

But... but... Dean's better and Kerry's a poopyhead... WAAAHHHH...

23.

[Larkspur]

104. Personally, I'm not interested in getting Kerry/Edwards signs

or bumperstickers. I bought my own stickers and here they are




It's the Kerry supporters on my Dem Town Committee who are whining and not willing to purchase Kerry/Edwards materials to support their candidate. Of course, I live in northeast CT and it is forcasted to go for Kerry, which is why the Kerry campaign is not spending money in my state.

Oh, I did tell the Kerry supporters in my Dem Town Committee to go up to New Hampshire and steal Kerry/Edwards stuff from the headquarters there, but none were willing to drive 2.5 hours to get there. <sigh>

[Pastiche423]

78. Ditto Ditto!

But as he is not, I, along w/my liberal friends are working tirelessly for our candidates for County Commissioner, State House, State Senate and our beloved Rep. Pete :loveya: DeFazio.

DEAN in 2008!

[ClassWarrior]

101. You mean you AREN'T working full time for JK's election??

Oh, that's smart! ~shaking my head~

23.

[AmerDem]

44. and IF grandma had balls she'd be grandpa

Time is a corporate media rag!

[irancontra]

50. if my grandpa had wheels, I'd call him a bicycle

the new media message: DEMORALIZE!DEMORALIZE!DEMORALIZE!

[TexasSissy]

51. I couldn't disagree more. Large segments of the population

simply would not have voted for Dean, including some Democrats. That was Gore's problem. Is it a coincident that Gore, then, endorsed Dean?

Challenging an incumbent war-time President is one of the most difficult elections there is. Kerry has actually been virtually tied with Bush all year....I believe that is unprecedented in our history. I believe that from the start, Dean would have had trouble getting close to 50% of the population to commit to voting for him, just as he had that trouble in Iowa.

Dean is a great cheerleader to have in your corner. But he's not the quarterback.

[Larkspur]

59. Dean broke Clinton's fundraising records twice in the same year

That was unheard of for an insurgent candidate, who had no political base to start with. Clinton did it as a sitting president. Kerry did it AFTER he became the inevitable nominee.

In December Kerry was down to a million dollars, and he had to take a $6.4 million mortgage on his Beacon Hills mansion to refuel, at that time, his wilting campaign. Granted, this mortgage helped Kerry to concentrate on campaigning in Iowa and New Hampshire, instead of fundraising, which helped Kerry to win. Kerry didn't refuel his campaign from dollars from rank-and-file Democrats or ordinary people. He used his family assets, which most people could only dream of having, to do so.

Dean was the first Democratic primary candidate to forgo FEC Matching funds. Good thing for Kerry he did, because if Dean hadn't, Kerry would not have followed suit and Kerry would be farther behind than he is now.

Bush is the worse president and his admin is the most corrupt in US History. Bush is not FDR, yet Kerry acts like it. Could this be why Kerry struggles to tie with Bush in swing states?

Unlike Kerry, Dean with his passionate and straight talking style would have broken the spells that portray Bush as competent. As I said in another post, Dean's campaign was better geared to attack Bush than fellow Democrats. Kerry's droning monotone voice enhances Bush's image as an honest talker.

Regarding Gore, Gore won MORE VOTES than Bill Clinton. He won more votes than all other previous Democratic candidates and came in #2 behind Ronnie Reagan against all candidates combined. Not a bad fellow to emmulate. Oh, and all the Democratic primary candidates sought Gore's endorsement. Gore endorsed Dean because Dean was the only candidate who 1) clearly opposed the Iraq war and 2) at the time, had a campaign that was electrifying Dem activists and political neophytes and giving hope that Dems could defeat Bush.

Regarding Iowa, Caucuses are not primaries. The Iowa Caucus is a byzantine system that should be sent to the dust heap. It favors extroverts and party operatives, not rank-and-file Democrats. Primaries are a more honest system, and despite the "Scream" speech being played over 600 times the week before the NH primary, Dean came in 2nd and if he had had another week, Dean could have beaten Kerry in NH. Just before the NH Primary, the polls were showing that Dean was making up ground but he needed another week.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

55. How about I use Time as toilet paper!!!

:grr:

[Meshuga]

57. Kerry or Dean...

They would be in the same boat right now with the media doing its best trying to help Bush define the democratic nominee with negativity.

This article is nothing more than an attempt to turn Democrats against Kerry. And it works like a jedi mind trick!

This is not the time to cry and moan about losing an election because we haven't lost the election.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

58. They would have had meme "Dean is crazy." At least Kerry is just boring

At least that is Kerry's meme.

[ShaneGR]

60. Kind of overlooks the scream, don't you think?

By now, you'd hear "My name is George W Bush, and I approved this message "YEEAAAAHHHH! YEAAAAHHHHH!!!! Liberal, Liberal, liberal, yeahhhhh!"

[Capn Sunshine]

63. You know damn well "the scream" was a media trick

It was a clever piece of editing that screened out all crowd noise. The reality was Howard could not be heard in that room over the cheering. Its disingenuous to bring it up as if it happened in a vacuum and wasn't an orchestrated trick. Funny how those edited tapes were in EVERY morning show's in boxes six hours later nationwide.

[AntiCoup2K4]

92. Now I'm sorry, but this is too much to pass up.....

...That a guy with a RIC FLAIR picture in his signature, a guy who makes a ridiculous and deliberate scream part of his act, is worried about Howard Dean's "YEEEEEEEEAAAAARRRR" :eyes:

At least Howard doesn't have hair that Jim Traficant would kill for :evilgrin:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. A Bit Early For Second Guessing (nt)

[Braunschweiger Bone]

64. Fellow Dean person here...

Oh, what could have been. But I still think Kerry will win in a landslide. Bush is just so horrible. I don't see too many people voting for him again.

[Radical Activist]

66. Yeah, cause Dean never flip-flopped on anything

"I'm from the democratic Wing of the Democratic Party" -Dean during the primary.

"I think I represented the centrist wing of the Party" - Dean at the convention.

No, it's not like Dean didn't flip-fop on Free Trade, the $87 billion to Iraq, or a host of other issues. :eyes:

Frankly, the flip-flop argument would have been 100 times easier with Dean, who would have run back to the middle as soon as he got the nomination.

[Larkspur]

67. Dean always said that he was a moderate/centrist, actually a

fiscal conservative and a social progressive, is how he saw himself.

He was labeled a McGovern Lefty because he opposed Bush's Iraq War, not because he claimed to be a champion of the Greens, which he wasn't.

When Dean took Wellstone's line, which had been taken from someone else, he was using it to resusitate a Party that was and may still be dying from the inside out. Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, and Lieberman all dissed the Democratic base when they supported Bush's IWR.

In the wake of the 2002 election debacle for the Democrats, there was no enthusiasm for the leading candidates at that time -- Kerry, Edwards, Lieberman, and Gephardt -- and despair, not hope, was in the air for the upcoming 2004 election. Dean was willing to champion the Democratic social progressive platform and strongly opposed the Iraq war, which Sen. Paul Wellstone also opposed, and that gives him the right to say "I'm from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party."

Unlike Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt and Lieberman, Dean made the effort to reach out to the Democratic base and reprimanded his colleagues when they ignored that base, like when Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, and Lieberman bypassed the NOW Prez forum and were going to miss the NAACP Prez forum, until Mfume called them persona no gratis.

Regarding Free Trade, Dean explained that it was good for Vermont, which traded with Canada. After campaigning in Iowa and elsewhere, he realized that it wasn't good for every section of the nation. As far as the $87 billion supplemental Iraq budget bill, Dean clearly stated that he would not support it if Bush didn't rescind the tax cuts, that went mainly to the very wealthy. He would have supported it if the tax cuts were rescinded to pay for it.

[dolstein]

71. Bullshit -- when Dean said he was from the "Democratic wing" of the

Democratic party, all the left-wing activitists knew what he was talking about. And he sure as hell wasn't talking about belonging to the moderate wing of the wing of the Democratic Party. The fact that he "borrowed" a phrase from Paul Wellstone wasn't lost on anyone.

Of course, the fact that for years Dean had in fact BELONGED to the moderate wing only makes his claims to be a die hard liberal seem transparently opportunistic. But since he chose to wear the liberal, McGovernite lable during the primaries, he'd be saddled with it during the general election.

[Larkspur]

100. Dean was never a McGovernite

Dean was for using our military to defend our country and for humanitarian crisis, like that which took place in Liberia last year.

Dean opposed the Iraq war, just like Wellstone did.

As far as Liberal vs Moderate, my mother considered herself a liberal, but in today's world she'd be a moderate. My mother was an FDR liberal, not a 1960's sexual revolution liberal, which she strongly opposed because she saw those liberals as advocating irresponsible behavior. I consider myself a liberal the way my mother did which makes me a Moderate in today's world.

[CityDem]

72. I miss Howard Dean

I was happy to support an honest, straight talking man like Dean. No nuanced positions - just from the heart.

[Mike L]

73. Must view link----->

http://www.aginsights.com/dean.htm

Anymore daydreams?

[rasputin1952]

76. As a member of DU...

Does anyone really care about Dean any more? And if so, why?

I ask this as a member here, nothing else. I would like to see bush debate FDR, but it ain't gonna happen. I wish Kerry were another Truman, but he isn't.

Howard Dean is a physician in NH....he's an honest guy, so what?

Bill Frist is a physician in the Senate...he's NOT an honest guy, and a real threat.

Priorities are the substance of politics....Dean, FDR, Truman are not a priority anymore. We let them go....let Dean go as well...O8)

[ScreamingMeemie]

80. I care. About the Dean dozen. About getting our party back. About

changing things from the ground up. To date, I have given over $500 to Democracy for America. This being after Dean dropped out. We gave him $800 when he was running. Governor (besides just Dr) Dean is the future of my party. He is the closest person to my ideals in our party. He was the first, and sadly only, candidate to shout for my kids when my voice wasn't being heard. If things continue on the way they are, and we marginalize Dr. Dean....we lose. Plain and simple. What amazes me is that so many people refuse to see that.

[rasputin1952]

84. Thank you for your honesty in your response...

I, personally, have nothing against Dean; but he is not our candidate.

There lies the crux of the situation. There will always be room for the "Deans", the "FDR's", the "Trumans" and the "Clintons". But at this stage of the race, Dean is not a priority, in fact, by threads like these, he saps energy from the real problem, bush.

bush is our worst nightmare, and Kerry is our only hope, at this time.
I do believe in "divide and conquer" politics, the more divided we are, the more we are liable to blow this thing, and have bush destroy the nation, or worse, blow up the world...:(

[ScreamingMeemie]

87. I'm canvassing for Kerry and pinning my hopes and money on

what Dean wants to do. I can do both. My yard, my car, my house, are festooned with Kerry/Edwards. My hopes and dreams are festooned with Gov Dean's ideas, plans, and promises. :hi:

[rasputin1952]

88. Cool...I can live w/that...

:D :hug: :hi:

[NYCGirl]

96. And BTW, Rasputin, Dr. Dean is a doctor in Vermont, not NH, which perhaps

proves you haven't been paying very much attention.

You might want to visit

www.democracyforamerica.com

and find out about all the wonderful things Howard Dean and all of us are doing for our party and for our country, and for John Kerry.

[MuseRider]

81. Amen.

We have a lot of work to do and not a lot of time. Kerry is the man we have and Kerry can do it but not alone. This is non productive. Well said rasputin.

[ScreamingMeemie]

83. I feel more productive than I have in a long time working with Gov Dean.

Democracy for America has given me hope again. It has also encouraged people to run for office on the smallest of levels. And that is a very good thing. I want to take our country back from career politicians. :hi:

[rasputin1952]

86. Thank you...

:)

[madfloridian]

98. I care deeply about Dean's plan. Our group is still together here.

We are working as DFA now, but we are just as passionate. Dean has started a movement that was much needed. It is not going away, he is not going away, and neither are we.

After November, we begin in earnest. Read his book, the plan is there.

[Uzybone]

77. Dean Dean Dean

Dean would have won. Thats why the Repukes are trying to tie Kerry to Dean as fast as they can. Because they fear Dean. Thats why Bush is saying Kerry is talking like Dean. Thats why Safire spent his entire MTP appearance trying to say Kerry = Dean. :eyes:

What rubbish. A Dean candidacy would have relegated the Democratic party irrelevant for the next 3 election cycles.

[Generator]

82. I'm in a pissed mood so here goes

If Howard Dean were the candidate, would all of those that daily piss on Kerry because he is behind in the polls or the media gives you the perception he can't win be defending him staunchly?

Fat fucking chance. Those fair weather lovers of Democracy would be turning on Dean just as they do on Kerry.

Would there be an outrage over something his wife did or said? YES

Because he wore the wrong color sweater? YES

And can you imagine what Bush the Emperor would do with a man that never went to Vietnam or served, admitted that fact proudly and basically could be protrayed as a PACIFIST?

What country do you think you are living in? This isn't France or even England. The people here are war loving fear loving idiots.

Dean would be down by 25 in the polls. Written off and you've be pissing and moaning over not choosing Kerry.

I loved Howard Dean. He's too good for this country at this time.

Support Kerry or say goodbye to Democracy.

[Larkspur]

102. I'm holding my nose and voting for Kerry, so I guess I support

Democracy.

[nancyharris]

85. And as for the Scream….

If the party had voted him a victory in Iowa there wouldn’t have been a scream.

[bain_sidhe]

89. Mission Accomplished, Time

I see we're refighting the primaries now instead of focusing on beating bu**sh**. Rove must be pleased.

[left-is-right]

90. dean would support mumia

[bklyncowgirl]

91. Can we PLEASE leave this until after the election

Look guys, I love a good circular firing squad as much as any liberal but whatever the intentions of this writer, this arguement isn't helping get Bush out of the White House.

I'm not saying that I think that Kerry has run a brilliant campeign. I have no problems with people criticising the guy. He's made alot of mistakes, number one on the list being his failure to take on the swift boat vets. I'm more than a bit worried about how the Dems caved on the terms of the debates. But at this point in the campeign saying "Damn, we should have gone with Dean is really a bit much."

Bush is the issue.

[mitchum]

95. This is not productive

[w4rma]

97. Time would be printing the same article as this one about Dean,

but with different insults. The purpose of this article was to forment arguments among Dems and waste our energy.

[shivaji]

99. The base would have been energized Big Time

I do not sense that with Kerry. Would not be surprised if
black voter turn out is well below 2000.