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Eugene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:45 PM
Original message
Girls Can Marry at 15, Colo. Court Finds
Girls Can Marry at 15, Colo. Court Finds


Thursday June 15, 2006 7:16 PM

By JON SARCHE

Associated Press Writer

DENVER (AP) - A 15-year-old girl can enter into a common-law marriage in Colorado,
and younger girls and boys possibly can, too, a state appeals court ruled Thursday.

While the three-judge panel stopped short of setting a specific minimum age for such
marriages, it said they could be legal for girls at 12 and boys at 14 under English
common law, which Colorado recognizes.

The ruling overturned a lower-court judge's decision that a girl, now older than 18,
was too young to marry at 15.
<snip>
The appeal was filed by Willis Rouse, 38, who is serving time for escape and a parole
violation. He argued that he and the girl began living together in April 2002 and applied
for a marriage license a year later.
<snip>

Full article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-5888962,00.html
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. And two gay adults cannot marry
OooooooKaaay.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. No, because that would make a mockery out of marriage
Even if a same sex couple has been together for longer than the 15 year old has been alive. It makes perfect sense when you're bottom-feeding for votes.
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. That's obscene. Instead of worrying about gay marriage, maybe the
Colorado Legislature ought to take a look at their marriage statutes and update them a little.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. In Florida
...they're dancing in the streets, because this time the wacky news comes from another state! :D

I kid, I kid.
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Ragin_mad Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I'm a Florida resident and let me tell you one thing right now
I am dancing in the street because the wacky news came from someplace else.


:D :D :D
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. LOL!
Truly, laughed out loud. :thumbsup:
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Veronica.Franco Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. There are so many kids sexually active AND having children ...
Many cultures accept them marrying or cohabitating at a very young age ... it isn't intelligent BUTT we aren't known for intelligence in this country, now are we ... LOL ... one young girl came to work in my office ... she really wanted to learn the business and get ahead ... she'd had her first child at 16 and now, at 18, was certain she needed a stable future for herself and her child ... she showed up about 4 days a week for THREE months and then, guess what?, she became pregnant again and felt it was going to be a "troubled pregnancy" and she'd need to stay home ... they start families so young that they do NOT even hear the doors all slamming behind them as their opportunities disappear before they are even old enough to identify them ... education is the key here or, more to the point, a lack of it ...
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pooja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. how do statutory rape charges become applied
how do pedofiles get prosecuted... 12yrs old... wtf..
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. But your honor, I 'm going to ask her to marry me!
11 = jailbait

12 = nuptial
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SlipperySlope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. They don't
They are MARRIED, so sexual assault charges do not apply:

18-3-405. Sexual assault on a child.

(1) Any actor who knowingly subjects another not his or her spouse to any sexual contact commits sexual assault on a child if the victim is less than fifteen years of age and the actor is at least four years older than the victim.

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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. Yeah, marrying kids is perfectly fine
Edited on Thu Jun-15-06 02:10 PM by HughBeaumont
but marrying someone of the same sex is an abomination according to some 2,000 year old novel. And it makes even FURTHER sense to govern our land and behavior according to said ancient and slowly-becoming-irrelevant book.

Way to continue to make yourselves look like assholes, Stupublicans.
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. "English common law"?
If I were that girls mom, I'd be spitting nails right about now. I hope someone is busy challenging the law and getting rid of it. It sounds like some old forgotten law some lawyer dug up to get his client off the hook. At least that's what I HOPE happened.
Interesting the article is from the UK.
The family values gang wins again. We'll let a 12 year old girl marry 38 year man, but by God we're gonna protect the sanctity of marriage from those homosexuals.
Disgusting.
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AnOhioan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. From the article
...he and the girl began living together in April 2002 and applied for a marriage license a year later.

The girl had become legally independent by then, but her mother also consented to the marriage and accompanied the girl and Rouse to obtain a license, the ruling said.



Seems the Mom consented.


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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. *Shudder*
Reminds me of my parents' former neighbor, who was so happy when the 60-year-old across the street got her 16-year-old pregnant: Not only did he have a good job, but VA benefits and a pension from the mines.
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yojon Donating Member (419 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
10. No no no you all dont get it at all > this is a good thing!
You see with all the pollution protection being removed and work safety rules being gutted and health care being eliminated, the average life span will decrease from ~89 years to the way it was in feudal Europe - 30-40 years. People will have to have their families early - no more of this yuppy waiting till age 40 to have kids. We're gonna have to start raising our families at an earlier age - the way they do in 'less developed' countries.

See - its all part of the plan. Dont worry. We love Big Brother.
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Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. Wonder how many other 12 year old wives this guy has
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
13. Woot!! I'm moving back to Colorado!!
Could things get any more screwed up? Conceivably a 15-year-old boy can start a family with a 12-year-old girl. Neither of them can enter into a contract, buy a house, get a job, drive, drink, own firearms, or any of the myriad of other things necessary to live life, but they can with all the blessings of the state, create it. (And yes, if you get married that young, booze and guns will be absolute necessities. :D)

This shit makes me crazy! Amid talk of raising the age limit for a driver's license to 18, they lower the age at which people can create new people.

I think you should have to be at least 25 to get married and 12 to vote. And get the drinking age back down to 18.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
16. Good luck finding a virgin at that age!
Edited on Thu Jun-15-06 02:49 PM by soothsayer
On edit: better martyr yourself if that's what you're after. Otherwise,what's the allure of a 15 y.o.? (Gross!)
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
17. Which states recognize common law marriage?
Common law marriage is recognized only in the following states:

Alabama
Colorado
District of Columbia
Georgia (if created before 1/1/97)
Idaho (if created before 1/1/96)
Iowa
Kansas
Montana
New Hampshire (for inheritance purposes only)
Ohio (if created before 10/10/91)
Oklahoma
Pennsylvania
Rhode Island
South Carolina
Texas
Utah
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Veronica.Franco Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. California ...
too ...
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Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. With one quirk....
If the marriage was created in a common law state (Colorado, for example) it has to be honored wherever the couple eventually settle - even if they happen to settle in a in state where common law marriages can't be created - because of the full faith and credit clause of the constitution.

Same logic should apply to my marriage (same gender - but legally valid where it was created) - which is the grain of substance behind the politically motivated push for the FM(Discrimination)A.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. In Wisconsin the last I knew...
Edited on Thu Jun-15-06 11:30 PM by LiberalFighter
a marriage would not be honored in Wisconsin if the intent was to circumvent the law in Wisconsin.


765.04 Marriage abroad to circumvent the laws. (1) If
any person residing and intending to continue to reside in this state
who is disabled or prohibited from contracting marriage under the
laws of this state goes into another state or country and there contracts
a marriage prohibited or declared void under the laws of this
state, such marriage shall be void for all purposes in this state with
the same effect as though it had been entered into in this state.
(2) Proof that a person contracting a marriage in another jurisdiction
was (a) domiciled in this state within 12 months prior to
the marriage, and resumed residence in this state within 18 months
after the date of departure therefrom, or (b) at all times after departure
from this state, and until returning maintained a place of residence
within this state, shall be prima facie evidence that at the
time such marriage was contracted the person resided and
intended to continue to reside in this state.
(3) No marriage shall be contracted in this state by a party
residing and intending to continue to reside in another state or
jurisdiction, if such marriage would be void if contracted in such
other state or jurisdiction and every marriage celebrated in this
state in violation of this provision shall be null and void.
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Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Its federal constitutional law...
so it doesn't really matter what state statutes say. The upshot of that Supreme Court case in Loving v. Virginia ('60s) when an interracial couple crossed state lines to marry when their own state prohibited it (and prior decisions related to the full faith and credit clause of the consititution) is that states must grant marriages that were entered into in other states full faith and credit, even if they could not be entered into at home. There are similar decisions with respect to marriages entered into in other countries.

The decisions are case law (since they are constitutionally based). As is typical when the federal constitution trumps statutes, not all states wiped contrary laws off the books - and recently some states have been adding them back onto the books in connection with same gender marriages (or dredging up the old ones - like the one in Massachusetts which is similar to your 765.04(3)).

Just because the laws are still on the books (or have been added recently) doesn't make them any more constitutionally valid.

That said, the principle has not been tested recently and we have a different Supreme Court - one that just gutted the constitutional protections against unannounced entry into private residences that have been a bedrock fourth amendment protection for just about as long.

(Recognition of underage marriages, interracial marriages, and commonlaw marriages are pretty well tested and recognition of such marriages is not likely to be change - same gender marriages they will likely try to stuff them in a very small "strong public policy" exception to the general rule.)
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Pennsylvania Ended Common Law marriage on January 1, 2005
Thus ending over 300 years of Pennsylvania law.

The recent change In Pa law started about five years ago when the Pa Supreme Court ruled that a 12 year old could enter into a Common Law Marriage for 12 was the age of consent under the Common Law for sex or marriage. The actual case involved a teacher and his 12 year old student and he walked because the girl said she did NOT have sex with him till both of them said they were Husband and Wife (and that is required under the Common Law).

Prior to the Council of Trent in the the mid 1560s (The Council of Trent was formed to address the problem of the Protestant Reformation) ALL MARRIAGES IN EUROPE WERE WHAT WE WOULD CALL "COMMON LAW MARRIAGES". THe reason for this was when the Roman Empire fell, it did NOT fall to an invading horde but collapsed internally. With Internal Collapse the Ruling Elites invited in the Germans to provide Military muscle at the same time Roman language, culture and institutions (Including the Church) survived. Under Roman Law the STATE married people, with the collapse of the state ceremonial marriages were NO longer possible. Thus Marriage became one of Custom instead of law (Through "lawful" when it come to purposes of inheritance and who had a duty to be supported and support other people).

Remember prior to the late 1800s your extended family was more important than your nuclear family. The extended Family was your support group, your welfare support, your unemployment insurance, your disability insurance, your children's babysitters and your care giver in your old age. Thus who was married to whom was important independent of sex. Now sex and reproduction was a factor in marriage, but how many children one had was more often a product of what your relatives wanted you to have than want a mother and father wanted. The extended family often put pressure on women and men to keep the number of their children down and who someone had sex with in and out of the family.

Anyway with the fall of the Roman Empire, you had the lost of keeping family books by the Roman Bureaucracy. The only institution that could duplicate that function was the Church, but being a surviving part of the Roman Empire the Church did NOT want to over extend its control. The primary reason for this hesitation seems to be that while the Western Roman Empire fell sometime between 450 and 570 AD, the Eastern Roman Empire Survived this period and was the single strongest country in the World from 450 AD till 1054 (Except for about a half century when the Arab empire was at its height about 700-750 AD and ignoring China whose Empire was to far way to affect Europe and the Mid-East compared to the Eastern Roman Empire). Thus the Catholic Church during the "Dark Ages" was reluctant to extend its power to areas that had been the Roman State's. Thus the Church did NOT marry people at this time period, but did get around its concern by "Blessing" such marriages.

By the time of the High Middle Ages (about 1000-1400) the practice in Europe was for a couple to go to the steps of the Church and announce to anyone around that they were accepting each other as Husband and Wife. The Parish Priest would then invite everyone into the church to "bless" the marriage and record the mass in his Parish Record (Thus preserving a record of the Marriage). They is one historian who reports of such blessing of Homosexual coupling in the 1300s (and said they were Homosexual Marriages by the Church which they could NOT be for at that time period the Church did NOT marry people).

Anyway after the Sacking of Constantinople by the Fourth Crusade in 1204 there was a movement of Greek teachers from Constantinople to Italy as the Constantinople never recovered from the Sacking of 1204 and from that decline declined further (By the Taking of Constantinople by the Turks in 1453 Constantinople was a Shadow of its former self, the largest city in the world between 570 and 1204 rivaled for a time by Baghdad, but always number 1 by a Huge factor). This movement of Greek Teachers to Italy brought with it a renewed knowledge of Roman Law. This had its good parts (Getting rid of Trial by Combat) and its bad parts (Reduction in the rights of Woman) over the Germanic Codes that had become part of Western Legal Tradition at that time. One aspect of this was who married people. While the Roman Law said the State, the Western Tradition had for almost a 1000 years had been the people themselves followed by a Blessing of the Marriage by the Church. How do you resolve this dispute between the Traditions and Roman Law?

A further factor was the increase wealth of the Middle Class during this time period. With that Increased wealth was who should inherit it? The Western Tradition fell into two groups, the first was to all of the Children of deceased (Or other heirs if no children), the other was that the wealth went to the eldest son. The problem was that under both Roman and German Law only "Legitimate" children could inherit. Who was "Legitimate"? while someone who was born AFTER a valid marriage was entered into. What happened if a man promised to marry one woman and had sex with her(A form of Common Law Marriage), and then formally married another women in front of witnesses (Another form of Common Law Marriage), who was his "Wife"? The answer was the First, even if his only intention in making the promise was to have sex with her (This is what happened to Edward VI and his Brother Richard III, Richard assembled the Throne after finding out his brother had made such a promise to one woman he had bedded, and then married the mother of the "Princes", thus making the second Marriage void and the Princes illegitimate and with that Richard III king of England).

Richard III having his nephews declared illegitimate do to their parents marriage being void for their Father having been married at the time he exchanged vows with their mother, is just the most famous case involving the problem of Common LAw Marriages and the Right of inheritance. This appears to be a Rare but not unheard of problem of the time period. To end this possibility the Council of Trent decided the best solution was a variation of Roman Law, i.e. the all Marriages must be done in a Ceremony, but instead of by a State Official it be done by a Church Official (Thus the Marriage Ceremony went from outside the Church to Inside the Church).

Note the date of the Council of Trent, 1560. Thus it is effective on Catholic Countries, it was NOt effective on Protestant Counties (Through the French Revolution would move the Ceremony from the Church back to the State even in Catholic Countries). Thus in Catholic Countries they have NOT been Common LAw Marriages since 1560s.

As to "Protestant" countries, the shift occurred later than 1560, but even England (the last holdout) had abolished Common LAw Marriages for England by the early 1730s (Through holding out the tradition for people who had no access to a Priest or Justice of the Peace to this day, thus the "Tradition" of Captains marrying people on his ship, the Captain in NOT marrying the couple but wittinesses and recording the Common Law Marriage of the Couple).

Just some background on Common Law Marriage I have learned over the years.
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
20. Does anyone have any information...
...on the makeup of this "three-judge panel"? Names? Is this a standing appeals court, or is this "panel" something temporary?

I ask because, if even one of them is a Repug (and I would bet all three classify themselves as Christians), s/he would make a fine addition to Conservative Babylon.

I don't mind ferreting out this information myself, but I'm not sure where to even begin looking.

Any help will be appreciated.
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Never mind, found it.
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steely Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Does it matter? After all, they're from Colorado.
(I'm in a particularly cynical mood)
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Yeah, I figured they'd all be Repugs...
Daniel M. Taubman
Arthur P. Roy
Alan Loeb

The bad news is that two were appointed by Gov. Romer (Dem.), and at least one (Daniel M. Taubman) appears to be a Dem (or at least a once-very-socially-conscious lawyer).

I know... It's an appelate judge's duty to rule based on existing law.

Never mind that the "existing" law in this case makes me want to vomit.

If I find the text of the entire opinion, I'll post it. I'm hoping at least one of the judges expressed disapproval of the law as it stands -- but I'm not holding my breath.
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