Wes wants me to support Tammy

[Doctor_J]

I like Christine AND Tammy, but for better or worse, would like mostly to put a "D" in that district. Which one will have a better chance in November? Funds are a little tight, so I must choose.

[dogman]

1. I think Tammy has the best chance in November.

She is fresh and appealing to the voters in that District. Then again, I must say I'm also a supporter of Wes and received the letter also. Wes is involved with the PAC that supports many of the Veterans currently running.

[Adelante]

2. Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America

IAVA PAC

http://www.iavapac.org/

[minvis]

3. Depends on who you ask

I'm supporting Christine financially and volunteer wise as well. I would say she has the better ground organization, but if your funds are tight, I'd say to hold off until after the primary. If Christine wins, it is my hope that the DCCC will back her sufficiently financially but we'll have to see. At this point the DCCC (Rahm Emanuel) is backing Duckworth so obviously if she wins, the money will continue to come from the DCCC for her.

As for who will have a better chance in November, I don't think anyone here can give you a good answer yet. There are just too many variables at this point.

[Gary Kleppe]

4. Support Christine

Christine not only has the best chance of winning, she'll be the best representative if elected. Duckworth as a candidate is indebted to the Chicago political machine. Roskam (the Republican in the race) will be sure to use this against her if she's nominated, and the machine will expect to be paid back if she does win in the general.

[dogman]

5. The "Chicago political machine" is certainly a GOP talking point.

Kind of disturbing to see you use it and thereby give it weight. How about the DuPage political machine and its' legacy of statewide corruption? That's the meme that should be presented. The last i knew Senator Durbin is not from Chicago and represents the State of Illinois well. The fact he has asked Emanuel and Obama and Schakowsky to support Tammy, speaks well for her. Once again it is my opinion, knowing people from and often working in this District, Tammy is a much more competitive candidate against Abramoff's friend, Roskam.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

7. Nicely stated! n/t

[Gary Kleppe]

12. Some talking points are true.

The Chicago Democratic establishment is corrupt, and not in line with the ideals of the party. When some of us marched downtown to protest the war in Iraq, a war that the Democratic Party supposedly opposed, the Daley administration sent an army of cops to keep us from exercising our rights.

And while there is a DuPage machine, which is at least equally corrupt, it is a Republican machine. Certainly neither of the two locally grown candidates (Christine Cegelis and Lindy Scott) owe anything to it.

Durbin may not be from Chicago, but he isn't from the Sixth District either. Speaking as someone who actually lives in the district, there's very little support for Duckworth here so far. You can walk for miles and see plenty of Cegelis or Scott signs outside people's houses, but none for Duckworth.

[dogman]

15. When Illinois is back in the red state column maybe the Chicago machine

will be broken for good. The talking point, by the way, is also built on racism since the Chicago (Cook County) machine is largely AA. The Democratic Party is hardly represented by Daley, but he is a large part of it and represents the center-right of the Party. He and many other Democrats do not oppose the war in Iraq unfortunately. Any time one Party has absolute rule of a city, county, or state government there is a breeding ground for corruption. That does not mean that everyone involved in the Party is corrupt however. As a resident of the District you are certainly entitled to support the candidate of your choice but I have talked to Democrats and Republicans who don't believe Cegelis can win. You must realize that it will take GOP crossover votes to win in your District. As far as signage, I'm sure you are aware that Duckworth has only become a candidate recently. There is some interesting info on http://thecapitolfaxblog.com/page/9/
Look at Cegelis Poll Tuesday, Dec 20,2005

Snip>Democrat Christine Cegelis lost to longtime Republican Congressman Henry Hyde last year 56-44. Since then, she has used her performance to argue that the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee ought to back her this time around in an open-seat contest against state Sen. Peter Roskam (R-Wheaton). <…>

George W. Bush defeated John Kerry 53-47 in the Hyde district last year. So Cegelis underperformed Kerry’s result by 3 percentage points. Over in the 8th Congressional District, Democrat Melissa Bean defeated incumbent Republican Phil Crane 52-48, beating Kerry’s totals by 8 percentage points (Kerry lost that district 56-44). Bean lost in ‘02, but she outperformed Al Gore’s ‘00 performance in the district by a point.

It’s difficult, to say the least, to buttress an argument that Cegelis is entitled to another shot when she underperformed the top of the ticket.
Snip> Just 28 percent of likely Democratic primary voters in her district knew who Christine Cegelis was. Remember, this is after her high-profile race against Hyde and a strong effort to keep her campaign going in the months since then. Cegelis has burned through a bunch of money in the past year to keep her name out there, but just over a quarter of Democratic primary voters recognized her name in August.<snip

[Gary Kleppe]

18. It's ridiculous...

...to characterize criticism of the Chicago machine as racist. For one thing, most of the major players like Daley and Emanuel seem to be white. But even if that weren't true, opposition to a group that happens to have African-Americans in it does not equate to opposition to African-Americans in general. The Bushies used that kind of argument to characterize opposition to Gonzales' nomination as anti-Latino.

You keep attacking Christine's electability, but what about Duckworth's? She has no track record whatsoever, nor -- despite a lot of high-profile endorsements and media attention -- has she any real support from within the district so far. Her connection to the Chicago machine is, despite your attempts to dismiss it, going to be a huge negative for her. And now it appears she's already flip-flopped on both health care and CAFTA. Both of these are very important issues to voters.

[dogman]

19. Yeah right, no racism.

I've lived "downstate" for over 50 years and I'll guarantee it has more than one meaning. Originally it was predominately about the white city pols, but when Harold came to power and many Dems fled the City and set up their mirror image as Repubs in the collar counties it took on an additional meaning. See "Fast" Eddie. Your characterization of a flip-flop is also the kind of argument we saw from the Bushies. These are valid questions for constituents to ask, but I don't know the accuracy of Lindy's report. I agree with her stand on Health Care. You are not going to be elected in the 6th District with Universal Health Care tagged to you. I do question Duckworth's electability in the Primary, but looking at the demographics, I believe she is far more electable in the General. You are in the District and have lived under GOP rule for how long? What do you think Cegelis brings to the table that will change that District? How is she going to raise another 6% plus of the vote? That is significant and I think requires a new face and a new approach. It will be a hard job for either candidate. I will support either one but I feel Duckworth presents a stronger dynamic. You must realize that repeating the "Chicago machine feeds" the GOP meme. Yes we'll face it from the GOP, but why give it more power by using it?

[minvis]

20. What do you mean?

you don't know the accuracy of Lindy's report. It's very clear. He asked Ms. Duckworth if she would have voted for CAFTA or not. She didn't answer him. It's not like CAFTA is some fringe issue either. I would think a candidate for Congress should have a stand on this, one way or the other.

[dogman]

23. It is clear if you believe his account.

Remember, he is trying to defeat her. I would have to see a third-party account. Since the AFL-CIO has endorsed her and has not endorsed Bean again, I tend to think she has a stand that they find acceptable. I'm not a 6th District voter and I'm not in her campaign. I'm supporting a candidate that I believe has the best chance of winning the District.

[Gary Kleppe]

25. The Stand

I've no doubt that she told them she'd oppose CAFTA, just like she told me and others at the York Township Democratic Organization meeting. But the fact remains that she told the Tribune, who are pro-CAFTA, a different story -- and this has been confirmed by both Cegelis and a staffer of hers who was present.

It seems that Duckworth's opinions change depending on who's listening, which leaves open the question on how she'd really vote on the next such treaty.

[dogman]

26. Do you have a link from the Tribune?

I'm not saying the account is not correct, but I've learned not to take an opponents campaign as a source without corroboration.

[Gary Kleppe]

27. No

I don't know that the Tribune's reported it. It was a closed-door endorsement session.

[wndycty]

28. I'd be very careful making allegations that can't be proven. . .

. . .or verified with a link. Also if your source is an insider and there were only a few people around when what you allege happened you may very well have comprised him or her because it won't be too hard to figure out her leaked the information.

[Gary Kleppe]

29. As I've already said...

...the sources were both of the other candidates, plus a staffer for one of them. Look http://scottforcongress.net/blog/?p=35">here. Nobody is asking for confidentiality.

[mopinko]

30. where are your links?

to all your accusations? oh, i forgot, you only report what the gossip columns say.
wow, it must be real kryptonite to waffle on issues for reports of it to rise to an "accusation" that demands a link.

[dogman]

31. removed by poster

[Ken Burch]

46. Then again, the AFL-CIO endorsed Gore, and got NOTHING

from him in exchange for helping him get nominated. They endosed Clinton twice even though NAFTA was the only thing
he ever fought to get through Congress.

It will be a long time before the AFL-CIO is really seen as fighting for working people again.
Sweeney is trying, but the old-time George Meany/Lane Kirkland hacks keep gumming up the works.

[dogman]

47. This is the Illinois AFL-CIO.

It is headed by Margaret Blakshere as President. They have supported some of the Illinois Dems who have managed to restore some of the workers' rights that were removed by the previous GOP administrations in this state. Illinois hasn't been this blue in quite a while.

[Ken Burch]

48. I'm all for restoring and expanding workers' rights. I AM a worker.

A member of the Inlandboatmen's Union of the Pacific(a part of tne Longshoremen's Unionfounded by Harry Bridges).
Glad to see the fight is going well in Illinois. My comments were more about the national leadership. As in most organizations(Labor or otherwise)the better people are always lower in the power structure.

[mopinko]

21. it is ridiculous.

scurrilous, even. the chicago machine never was and possible never will be anything but white. harold may have scared a few of bigots away, but he never did get his hands on the levers of power. if he had lived a little longer, maybe he would have. but he didn't. and i take great umbrage at the implication that there is anything racist about discussing the issue.
and add to the list of issues where duckworth has soft pedaled the dem position- choice. where does she stand on choice? she doesn't.

[dogman]

22. Come on, mo.

You're from Aurora and don't know what I'm talking about? The Chicago machine has shared power with both the AA and latino community for some time now. The DuPage and suburban Cook GOP machines are run by whites who fled the City when these power sharing deals were forced on them. You know damn well this is used in the rural areas. The red counties are no different than the red states. Aurora is mixed and new developments avoid the name Aurora. A new one in Sugar Grove advertises they are just West of Naperville. This is used all the time by the GOP and everyone knows the code. As far as her position on Choice, I don't know. I believe I have read she is pro-choice. I know the demographic of the District and pro-choice would best be soft pedaled there.

[mopinko]

24. i know full well that there is racism in the burbs.

i am objecting to your assertion that pointing out that people in the burbs do not want the candidate of the chicago machine is calling upon a racist boogeyman. first, i think you are conflating 2 things- how people view the "big, bad city" and how they view the chicago/daley machine. i don't know anyone who thinks that machine itself has a black face. most of the black people i know here in the city would roll on the floor to think that the daley machine shares power with them. i suppose there are buffoons out that that do, but, second, i don't think anyone in this discussion does. i am insulted, and remain insulted.

soft pedaling choice, to me, is the same as being ashamed to be a democrat. i honestly believe that dems should be dems and if the district is republican, they should have a republican representative. i am well aware of the cost of being honest at all times. i just can't make any sense of the alternative. that's why you will never, ever see my name on a ballot.
but this candidate will represent our party. my party. the spinelessness of our elected reps is leading this counrty to RUIN, fucking RUIN!!!!!!!!!!! who needs another weenie?!

[Ken Burch]

45. That, and Daley the Second took power by getting

an unpopular African American hack(Sawyer)and a few other more conservative African American aldermen to join forces with the white machine boys to stop progressive African American Tim Evans, the choice of most Harold Washington supporters, from succeeding Washington after Washington's death. Sawyer somehow stole the next primary, then obediently lost to Lil' Richie.

(So Richie was having the cops beat up peace demonstrators? Hizzoner would be proud of the boy. Chip off the old billyclub.)

[gunsaximbo]

32. tammy says and does what rahm wants her too

I would rather support someone with a mind of their own.

[dogman]

33. Is that your opinion, or do you have some facts to share? N/T

[gunsaximbo]

34. certainly, it is my opinion but factually Rahm...

recruited her. She did not approach Rahm or the Democratic
Party. He must have instructed her at some point wouldn't you agree?

[mopinko]

35. her first issue statement

included the reform of the alternative minimum tax. now, i bet she spent a lot of time in the hospital worrying about that issue. sure, sure.

[dogman]

37. Since it affects many in her District and possibly her personally,

why not? I imagine her hospital time was spent hoping for her own recovery and helping other Veterans.

[dogman]

36. No, I don't agree.

Published reports say that Durbin met her on Capitol Hill and was so impressed he asked Rahm to help her. After that I'm sure he has given her support and advice. Her campaign manager is David Axelrod who has been involved in many Democratic campaigns and is also an Illinois Democrat.

[mopinko]

38. oh, come on

they handed her the campaign on a silver platter. (i use the term campaign loosely. robo-calls, paid petition gatherers, and paid "volunteers" to make endless phone calls. does that count as the tammy duckworth campaign?) you don't think they expect payback?
do you think that money in politics only corrupts republicans? you rail about it all the time. but you don't seem to connect the dots much.

[dogman]

39. And that proves Rahm set this up?

You are missing some links here. Have you seen the amount of money Roskam has? You complain about Duckworth having money and then you complain they aren't giving Cegelis money. Why give Cegelis money if it is so corrupting? I complain about the money because it isn't fair, but until the rules are changed, that's the game. I would prefer that they were given about $20,000 each for the Primary run and $50,000 each in the General. Then grassroots, door to door would be a major factor. Unfortunately we are a long way from that.

[mopinko]

40. we will never know the whole story, i fear.

but to complain that someone who is, in fact, an excellent grassroots fundraiser, cannot raise enough money to suit you, to do it in such a way to make sure that they don't get any of the big contributions, then to hand a ready-made campaign to a complete unknown, with zero money, spend on her behalf, make rain on her behalf, again i say, come on.
and to paint that person as a "fighting dem" only to have her crawl out of the starting blocks with her little behind covered. yeah, some links are missing, alright.
and i could give a rat's ass about roskam's war chest. it only matters to the extent that he can use it to corrupt the process. which that party is very good at, as we saw in '04. it can't buy him legit votes. it might buy him thugs and crooks. but for the dem candidate to have twice that much would not change that.

[wndycty]

41. You taint Duckworth due to your hatred of Rahm and that is wrong. . .

. . .I suppose you won't be supporting Duckworth if she wins the nomination.

[mopinko]

42. not hatred- opposition to politics and actions.

you keep putting these words in my mouth. THAT IS WRONG!!!!!!!
this is a perfectly proper debate for loyal members of the party to have. for citizens to have. your repeated attempts, and those of others on your side, to make it personal, to moralize about it, is nothing more than an attempt to silence me, and other grassroots supporters of progressive candidates.
tammy duckworth taints herself with her weenie positions. tammy duckworth taints herself by being a puppet of the powerful. i did not utter a word of criticism of her until i saw what she had to say on the issues. when she opened her mouth, the things that i expected to hear came out. now i know she is everything we do not need in the party.
and what happened to paul hackett sure convinces me that there are many in this party who do not represent me.
as you know, i do not live in the district, so i can't vote for her, which i certainly would. but will i pour my money and my heart into her campaign? hell no. why would i work for someone who will not represent me? we know who supports her. let them elect her. she can dance with the folks that brung her. i will put my efforts into a progressive, grassroots campaign.
this is what democracy looks like. get over it. and please stop putting words in my mouth.

[wndycty]

43. Your innuendo is childish and tiring. . .

. . ."we know who supports her."

I, and other DUers support her, so tell me what they should preclude anyone from supporting her.

[mopinko]

44. dearie, i NEVER bother with innuendo.

if i ever come across to you in a way that is less than crystal clear you just let me know. i will be happy to spell it out.

[madrchsod]

6. welcome to du

Ph.D. in High Energy Theoretical Physics! welcome to du and the illinois forum

[Gary Kleppe]

13. Thanks!

[mopinko]

8. tammy doesn't need your money,

she has plenty of rich friends now. if you want the candidate of the fat cats, then tammy is your gal.
if you want to see a level playing field in democratic party primaries, and want to grow the grassroots, support christine.

[Freddie Stubbs]

9. Is Wes Clark a 'fat cat?'

:shrug:

[dogman]

10. She needs all the money she can get. Roskam has over $1million.

He is the candidate of the fat cats. We need a Dem majority in the House.

[wndycty]

11. Please back up your statement. . .

. . .Mo you do yourself and Cegelis a diservice by basically tar and feathering anyone who supports Tammy. You have made a ton of BS allegations against those who support Tammy just because we support Tammy. Have Tammy's supporters made allegations against Cegelis supporters, for the most part we have just stated our concerns about the Cegelis campaign, the way it was managed and her chances of winning in Novemeber.

If Cegelis supporters are honest with themselves they would acknowledge that the problems many of us who support Tammy have cited are real. How else do you explain Christine dumping Patrick Moagge? If everything was fine in the Cegelis camp why in the hell would she replace her long time campaign manager just a month and half before the primary. You can blame Emanuel and the DCCC all you want (its easy to pass blame than to take responsibility), but one needs to look no further than the Cegelis camp for her problems. Again ask yourself why is there is little cash on hand and why was the campaign manager let go? You can blame Rahm or the Cegelis camp can look itself in the mirror. I think Christine looked herself in the mirror and that is why she had the shake-up.


I remember when we were at Goose Island and I was attempting to state my reasons for supporting Tammy and you just kept shouting over me. It reminded me of a kid who puts her hands on her ears screaming "la la la la la" when she doesn't want to hear the person talking to her.

[Gary Kleppe]

14. There was no dumping

Christine didn't "dump" Pat Mogge. Kevin Spidel, who has vast experience in field work, became available. She couldn't afford to hire both him and Pat, so the latter voluntarily bowed out for the good of the campaign.

As for the cash on hand issue, it's common for campaigns to procrastinate on paying their bills in order to inflate their cash on hand. Cegelis is ethical enough not to do this.

[dogman]

16. Really? Cegelis shows a debt almost equal to COH.

Her Q4 COH minus debt leaves about $180. Campaigns are required to file and it doesn't mean anything about ethics.

[mopinko]

17. your language and framing

are something straight out of fox, wndy, really, they are.
tar and feathering??? BS allegations?? for making absolutely true statements about a candidate's contributors? when the question was whether or not to contribute to that candidate? a comment that should be the central issue in each and every campaign in this country? every single candidate ought to have to answer the question- who's your daddy? who is tammy duckworth's daddy? this is the world of pay to play. you want to know what someone stands for? look it up, it's in the fec report. ok, that is not tar and feathers. that is THE QUESTION. how dare you accuse me of stepping over the line for raising the issue that makes the world go round. how dare you try to put the question of who is paying the piper off the table.
it is a plain and simple fact that cegelis is funded by the small donations of the supporter in the 6th and on the net. you insist her fundraising is inadequate, as though $50,000 was some sort of self evident benchmark for failure, but until you provide some sort of rubric for comparison, you have proved nothing. the only people who have done that are on the cegelis side, and that showed the numbers to be reasonable. none of the disparaging remarks that you have made about cegelis are provable. they are innuendo, rumor and slur. nothing i have said about duckworth is anything but simple, provable fact.

tammy duckworth is funded by a barrage of money and pr, shaken from the trees by one of the most powerful dems in washington. she has been handed meet and greets at big money law firms, lobbyists offices, and chicago's finest hotels. she announced her candidacy on the national news show of rahm's former compatriot.
this is not an accusation of anything. it is the facts, ma'am. people are free to draw whatever conclusion they want. my conclusion is that tammy duckworth would have divided interests, at best. her lukewarm public statements on issues at the core of the dem party values raised my concerns even further.
christine would represent the people of the 6th district. and even though i do not live in her district, she would surely, like howard dean, speak for ME.

"Have Tammy's supporters made allegations"
"dumped her campaign manager."
"just stated our concerns about the Cegelis campaign"
"How else do you explain Christine dumping Patrick Moagge"

i explain it this way- because the grassroots see christine as the kind of democrat that we need. she is a polished candidate with a great platform, who has mounted an amazing campaign on a shoe string. she is a dem in the mold of chairman dean, and we love her. she has earned the respect of progressive dems nationwide, and has an opportunity to bring in more experienced, more nationally known people. of course, she is welcoming them to her team.
have you ever met pat moggee? he is a fine young man. i believe that he just got sucked into campaigning for christine, went to camp wellstone, and suspended his education. i am not positive that that is the situation. but he has gotten her through 3 years of non-stop hard work to get to the level they are now. he was not "dumped". he grew his job until it was too big for him. i would be proud to have accomplished such a "failure". but at any rate, he is not a seasoned professional, and kevin is. christine is a quality candidate now that can attract someone of high caliber.
that is how i explain it. your "concerns" are a lot of spin. and i explain your comments about "shouting" as serious disrespect for me as a person, and for political debate in general. you know that i was not shouting. we spent a few minutes in a spirited discussion. voices were loud, but nobody was shouting, and you certainly were not shouted "over". you got your say. nobody insulted anyone. everybody stuck to the facts. and btw, i was not the only one there standing up for christine. for you to paint that exchange with that kind of innuendo, is just plain insulting.