Gen. David Petraeus

[Dirtman 1]

Anybody have any thoughts on the recent ad in NY Times and Washington Post identifying him as "General BetrayUs"??
Having been in the military for sometime, I found this objectionable and ill-considered, but I was interested in thoughts from any of you.

[luckyleftyme2]

1. what did you think of his report?

did you find it odd that the president went to iraq just a few days before the general
made his report?
My feeling is the next president will be left "THE BUSH CHENNY BLUNDER OF THE CENTURY"

[Dirtman 1]

2. Report

I haven't had time to read it yet. Have you?
Do you know of a link to his report or where I could find it?
All I have heard are the sound-bites on the news, but I have found they are not always reliable or accurate.
What did you think of the ad I asked about?

[Maine-ah]

3. I haven't caught the ad yet, Dirtman

I haven't watched TV in a long time. Though since you have, why is it so objectionable and ill-considered?

[Dirtman 1]

5. My Opinion

Well, after the 4-star general was unanimously approved by the Senate committee to take on this tough job, he was lauded as an outstanding leader and military officer by all (Dem & Rep alike).
For this ad to be run questioning his patriotism and character will help nobody and in my opinion only makes those who do it look shallow.
I expect this could become a PR problem...perhaps a big one.

[crim son]

4. I haven't seen it and can't find anything but condemnation on google.

Therefore, I have no opinion.

[Dirtman 1]

6. Link to copy of ad

The ad can be seen Here:

[crim son]

7. Thank you.

I don't like personal attack ads because I am not personally swayed by them. However other people are. The war and its prolongation are matters of the greatest national importance and alas, americans seemed to be swayed not by factual discussion but by this sort of propaganda. Is there another way to get the people thinking? I mean, another way that somebody is willing to try?

I know, by not condemning this ad I sink as low as the repukes. So be it: they tend to admire their "strength of conviction" even as it turns into slander or violence. Maybe the MoveOn message is something they can understand; certainly their criticism rings laughably hollow.

[Maine-ah]

8. is it true?

seriously....take out the "betray us" line...is the rest of the ad true?

[mainegreen]

9. I hope not, but given history, don't doubt it.

However if the 'violence formula' thing is true .... shudder.
Despicable.

[luckyleftyme2]

10. what are we still doing there?

I don't want my country to become an occupier of any country! our boys done a great job.bush and company blew the re-building,p.o. the iraqi people,its time the iraqi's swam or sank on their own. and maliki is not trustworthy.

[ticapnews]

11. Many of the facts cited in the moveon.org ad were also cited

by the Democrats in their official response to the testimony.

I believe moveon.org and the Democrats have both linked full citations on their web sites for people who want to check the facts.

Short story: Yes, the facts in the ad are true.

[Maine-ah]

12. then I have no problem with this ad...

The GOP has certainly said worse stuff about liberals/dems than the "betray us" part in the ad.

[Dirtman 1]

13. My thoughts

Crim-son I agree. I don't like attack ads either.
Mainah - I would agree both GOP and Dems say some rediculous things in attack ads.
Aside for my distaste for attack ads, I wouldn't have an issue with this ad if it was one candidate against another. My issue is why attack a 4-star general everyone agreed was the right man for the job.
Perhaps it was my service in the Navy, but these guys are honorable folks and involving them in attack ads is uncalled for and in my opinion objectionable.

[Maine-ah]

18. that's the funny thing about information

maybe at the time everyone thought he was the best for the job, but then you get new info about someone,and you change your mind. It's ok to do that...

just because someone is military, does not automatically make them "honorable".

[jpak]

14. In another war, in another galaxy, far far away, another US general claimed to have seen

"light at the end of the tunnel"

I found this as objectionable and ill-considered as the testimony of the current general in question.

The truly objectionable facts are - there was and is no light at the end either tunnel.

and I find it "ill-considered" to ignore this.

MoveOn

RightOn

[luckyleftyme2]

15. THE SAD FACT

THIS WAR WILL CONTINUE INTO A NEW PRESIDENCY.The purpose of the war was false,the plan now looks like they never intended anything but to stay once it was launched.
Instead of an unplanned mess it is begining to look like an overall plan to take over a country.

[jpak]

16. Yes - and the RW was silent when another 4-star general *lied* to the people of the US

and the world before the UN regarding the Iraq's alleged WMD program...

Not one - repeat - not one claim made by this 4-star general used to justify this war was true.

The GOP equally silent when Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Cheney publicly ridiculed an *honest* 4-star general for his *honest* assessment of the number of US troops needed to secure post-war Iraq.

...and the same RW that criticizes MoveOn for its NYT ad remains silent on these issues to this day...

fucking hypocrites...

[luckyleftyme2]

17. a little pun

you can tell a "bushite" but you can't tell him much!

[Dirtman 1]

19. Just out of curiosity

Just out of curiosity, who among you served in the military? That may help answer one of my questions.

[MaineDem]

20. I think that's irrelevant

Almost all of us are thankful and respectful for most people who are serving or who have served. My husband, my father, and my mother are (or were) veterans.

I think General Patreaus' message was wrong. I think he lied. That doesn't mean he isn't worthy of our thanks for his years in uniform.

[luckyleftyme2]

21. i'm proud to say I did

I'm also proud to say I spent several years working on military installations as a civilian!
I come from a family that has served this country for over a hundred years. and those
who couldn't serve built ships,or sailed them (supply ships)my mother sewed parachutes
at the verney mill in brunswick during world war11.
half my family are canadian,many lost family members during the second world war and korean war.
I had several great uncles who were in the merchant marines. two of them were torpedo
twice on different ships during world war two.
my wifes family have a military history also.
my uncle who passed away recently was at pearl harbor the day it was attack(dec.7) he was honored several times by the portland press hearld or his service,and interviewed many times over the years.

[Maine-ah]

22. I have family in the military

one on his third tour in Iraq.

I have not served personally. I never would either. Nor would they accept me if I wanted to.

either way, it doesn't matter.

[jpak]

23. You already know the answer to your "question"

So why don't you just come right out and say what's on your mind...

[Dirtman 1]

24. Well...

jpak - Actually, I didn't know the answer to my question.
I didn't know how familiar or unfamiliar folks here were with the military.
Lucky has a lot of experience through his civilian service and the service of family members.
The fact that MaineDem is so closely related to the military and yet she thinks it is irrelevent is surprising. She says General Petraeus lied?? Specifically, what did he say that was a lie?

[ticapnews]

25. Link

http://democrats.senate.gov/journal/entry.cfm?id=282187

[crim son]

27. Wow.

It sounds to me that if the General wasn't lying, he was most certainly either uninformed or testifying on drugs.

[jpak]

26. and it's not just the 'Democrat' party that was skeptical...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3588279&page=1

Do Republic Senators Warner and Hagel "disrespect the uniform" too???

I'll say one thing that's on *my* mind...

I think the recent pro-war TV commercials - replete with pictures of the burning WTC, etc. - are just plain fucking disgusting.

More lies heaped on lies to justify this war...

[crim son]

28. I'm curious why it should in fact be relevant whether or not

somebody has intimate knowledge of the military.

[Shorebound]

29. Military knowledge

"I'm curious why it should in fact be relevant whether or not somebody has an intimate knowledge of the military."

I can't presume to speak for the person who asked the original question, but it could have something to do with the idea that people familiar with the military would know that officers and enlisted are sworn to obey orders given by a superior, and the general may have been following orders from his commander in chief. Or that high-ranking military officers are by nature not inclined to announce publicly "we're losing" when asked how a war is progressing. In fact, it could be that anyone who assumed that the general would give the sort of report that the folks at MoveOn wanted to hear suffers from terminal naivete.

It's one of the ironies of the military that is supposed to protect the Constitution that its members give up some of their constitutional rights while they serve, among them freedom of speech. I would bet that his report was carefully vetted by the White House before anyone in Congress or the public heard it. Even if the general wanted to make a stronger statement, he would not have been allowed to while in uniform. It's a matter having to do with both the military concept of honor and simple self-preservation. The example of (now ex-) officers who tried to speak out in the past is probably very strong in the Pentagon.

Yeah, I did my four years back in the Dark Ages.

[crim son]

30. I think the point is that nobody in fact anticipated an honest report

although there might have been some wishful thinking, given that we are force-fed the idea that the members of our armed forces are not only the best and brightest but also chock full of integrity and good sense. Alas, with or without military knowledge, the past seven years have taught us what to expect & DUers are more aware than most. Dirtman sounds disingenuous when he asks who among us has served. I'm not saying he is, I'm saying that's the way it sounds.

[Angsty]

31. It was stupid timing

If they had just run it a day later, it would have made all the difference, though. To the general public, going negative before he even gave the report made it look like Petraeus wasn't being given a fair shot.

[crim son]

32. Now, see, I didn't know it came out a day early.

Your point is a good one. How stupid!

[luckyleftyme2]

34. IT PROBABLY HAD A LOT TO DO WITH THE PRES.

IT PROBABLY HAD A LOT TO DO WITH THE PRESIDENTS VISIT JUST A FEW DAYS BEFORE THE GENERALS APPEARANCE.
BUT WE ARE GETTING USE TO BUSH'S STUPID PR PLOYS.
THINK BACK TO THE 911 SITE APPEARANCE WITH GIULIANO! STAGED! THE AIR CRAFT CARRIER BANNER AND SPEECH! STAGED!
PEOPLE AREN'T COMPLETELY STUPID,AFTER A WHILE THEY QUESTION ANYTHING THAT APPEARS PRE-PLANNED!
FROM A POLITICAL VIEW;BUSH JEOPARDIZED PETREAUS REPORT BY GOING TO IRAQ!

[jpak]

33. Will Pitt recently posted a series of pre-war quotes from the Bush regime - well worth a peek

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1893326&mesg_id=1893326

Here are some "good ones" from Tommy Franks...

"There is no doubt that the regime of Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction. And...as this operation continues, those weapons will be identified, found, along with the people who have produced them and who guard them."

- General Tommy Franks, Commander in Chief Central Command
Press Conference
3/22/2003

"I have absolute confidence that there are weapons of mass destruction inside this country. Whether we will turn out, at the end of the day, to find them in one of the 2,000 or 3,000 sites we already know about or whether contact with one of these officials who we may come in contact with will tell us, 'Oh, well, there's actually another site,' and we'll find it there, I'm not sure."

- General Tommy Franks, Commander in Chief Central Command
Fox News
4/13/2003

...and we are now to believe that "the Surge is working"???

For the record, I now have zero tolerance for all war supporters, apologists and enablers...

none