2 Pierce County deputies shot, critically injured

[paulsby]

Source: Komo News

NEAR EATONVILLE, Wash. -- Two Pierce County deputies were shot near Eatonville on Monday night.

Pierce County Sheriff's spokesman Ed Troyer said the two were critically wounded at approximately 8:48 p.m. One was airlifted to Harborview Medical Center and the other taken to Madigan Army Medical Center. Troyer said the two deputies were responding to a domestic violence call involving two brothers who wanted an unwanted guest removed at a home in the 34300 block of Tanwax Court East when trouble began.

When officers went into the home, one man greeted them while his brother opened fire from the second floor, Troyer said. "They were basically ambushed," he said. "The suspect, out of view, was upstairs and opened fire on the deputies." The gunman fired several rounds, hitting the deputies, who managed to fire back.

One brother was shot dead, Troyer said. No information was available on the second brother.

It is not known why the deputies were targeted.



Read more: http://www.komonews.com/news/local/79876627.html

---

This is getting ridiculous. 8 (that i know about) cops shot in the seattle/tacoma area in a matter of weeks. And this one looks like an ambush again.

[jobycom]

1. Good God.

That's horrifying.

Best wishes for survival and recovery. And peace.

[Sebastian Doyle]

2. What the Hell?

Eatonville, for fucks sake??? The only danger you're ever supposed to face there is the eventual eruption of Mt. Rainier.

[paulsby]

3. if you are a human being, that is true

if you are a farm animal, otoh... :)

[Sebastian Doyle]

4. No, that's Enumclaw

...where all the weird things were happening with goats and horses a while back.

[paulsby]

7. that is true

i was in enumscratch the other day fwiw. and no, i had no animals near or with me!

i am just speculating on eatonville. i found it on the map, saw it was in the middle of nowhere and speculated.

enumclaw otoh is a well documented epicenter of human/animal pleasure

[quakerboy]

10. Theres some wierd shit out that way

I found neatly laid out animal entrails piles on paths several times out in that area. Someone ripped open those little critters just to make tidy patterns out of their intestines. Not what I would consider normal or ok.

[winyanstaz]

17. yup...not an area you wanna wonder around in unarmed...

Here is a very short article by an unknown author.

Why I carry a gun.
I don't carry a gun to kill people...I carry a gun to keep from being killed.
I don't carry a gun to scare people. I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.
I don't carry a gun because I'm paranoid. I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.
I don't carry a gun because I'm evil. I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world.
I don't carry a gun because I hate the government.
I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government.
I don't carry a gun because I'm angry. I carry a gun so that I don't have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared.
I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone. I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.
I don't carry a gun because I'm a badass. I don't carry a gun to make me feel tough. I carry a gun because men and women HAVE to know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love.
I don't carry a gun because I feel inadequate. I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I WOULD be inadequate.
I don't carry a gun because I love it. I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.
Police Protection is an oxymoron. Free citizens must protect themselves.
Police do not protect you from crime, they usually just investigate the
crime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess.
Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to
take an ass whoopin'.

..author unknown (but obviously brilliant) (*a few additions and changes by me to make this apply to all genders)

[bertman]

24. Thanks for posting the "Why I carry a gun" article, St. Staz. That about sums it up. nt

[winyanstaz]

52. yw Bertman :)

Having had to run off a few bad asses in the wilds of Wyoming and Montana in my younger days....I can fully appreciate how much safer it is for a woman to be armed and well educated on using a gun too.
Back then I carried a shotgun in my truck.
It was "sport" for white men to hunt Native American women (and men)in the early 60s..and I have heard it is still going on a lot of places there...expecially the reservations.
Saving my little sister from being gang raped by a drunken gang of wanna be cowboys made me a believer way back when.
I have never been afraid of the four-legged critters...it's the two legged varmints that I keep a sharp eye on. :)

[Tuvok Obama]

15. 7 miles outside Eatonville, way out in the middle of nowhere

"The officers were responding to a report of an "unwanted guest" at a home near Tanwax Lake, 7 miles north of Eatonville and about 18 miles south of Puyallup."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010564810_shooting22m.html

I used to have a government job that took me out into these remote areas ... addresses that were, on paper, "Roy" or "Orting" or "Eatonville" ... but, unlike those quaint Mayberry towns, some of the rural outskirts resembled scenes right out of Deliverance. If I were a cop, I'd much rather patrol Tacoma's infamous Hilltop district than some of the remote, backwoods areas.

[boppers]

5. If the deputies were allowed concealed carry, they could have prevented this.

Wait, am I in the wrong thread?

:evilgrin:

On a more serious note, this is why I think personality, criminal history, and IQ checks should be required for gun ownership. Get a speeding ticket in the last 10 years? No gun for you.

[proteus_lives]

6. Everyone has an authoritarian streak I guess.

That anti-rights spiel is surprising from you.

Should people face the same tests for voting or abortion?

[paulsby]

9. i can't believe this thread

is turning into an anti-gun screed?

say it aint so, joe

[boppers]

11. Well, it's kind of meta (or that was the intent of my post)

It seems that every time people get gunned down, there are folks claiming that more guns are the solution somehow.

In this case, not so much.

[paulsby]

12. i am 100% pro RKBA

i just don't see how it's relevant. here in WA, it's a right to carry state. we happen to have a low murder rate, especially in our major city, seattle, which compares favorably to vancouver CANADA in homicides. it's a VERY safe city.

i haven't heard yet if the guy who shot the cops is or isn't a convicted felon. it wouldn't surprise me since ALMOST all cop killer/shooters are.

but there are exceptions. iirc, the guy who shot benton and his partner back in october had a clean criminal record. otoh, he had an ARSENAL to include EXPLOSIVES/IED's in his apartment. those were far more dangerous than the guns.

[boppers]

16. Well, I think it should be legal for an intelligent, sane, stable person to have an IED.

What's missing is a way of quantifying such requirements.

[paulsby]

26. while i disagree with you,

the difference between "arms" ie single person carried commonly used personal firearms, and IED's is huge.

the former is constitutionally protected. so, regardless of what we think is good POLICY, only one is mandated to be constitutionally protected.

i also note that the WA state constitution is especially clear about RKBA

[rd_kent]

36. Whats obvious is that you are none of the above....

and have no business being around guns. Thanks for playing.

[MadMaddie]

44. Yea, that guy in October had a tell tale sign of being off

and the police organizations really need to monitor inviduals that are not accepted into the acadamy.
This guy was driving a car that looked like a police car, he had even pulled someone over at one time. (If I remember the story correctly). This guy was obsessed with the police. This guy was going to go out by suicide by police. (Well that was his plan)

These two brothers in this case I am sure we will find out more of their history but we won't be surprised by what we find.

[boppers]

13. IQ tests for voting, yes. (Actually, already done in many states). 80 or above.

Personality tests and Criminal history for voting, no, because ballots tend not to directly kill people (you'd have to paper-cut them to death).

For abortion I'd apply the same standards, as abortions have no link to killing adults in cold blood, but a mentally incapacitated person often needs others to help them in their decision making.

Let's reverse it:
Should high IQ, but sociopathic, people with a history of breaking the law be treated the same as law-abiding, healthy, people?
Should low IQ, but sociopathic, people with a history of breaking the law be treated the same as law-abiding, healthy, people?

[cabluedem]

31. Any law broken should disallow gun ownership. After all they claim they are "law abiding". nt

[paulsby]

43. would you say the same about voting?

i am all for disallowing violent and serious felons from having RKBA.

but just as i don't think a DUI should strip one's right to vote, it shouldn't strip one's right to carry

[proteus_lives]

8. That's horrible.

What's with the area lately?

Prayers and good thoughts for the deputies. :patriot:

[Tuvok Obama]

14. This is the same county where the four officers were murdered in November

[boppers]

18. Is crime up, or is reporting up?

I keep hearing that crime is down, while hearing of crime everyday.

[paulsby]

25. crime is down

shooting of police officers in the greater seattle area, otoh, is up

after the monford shooting, it's pretty clear that both clemons and the guy who did this shooting may be "copycat" effect.

[Chulanowa]

19. Not to sound callous about this...

I don't want to see cops or anyone else killed...

But does this mean that the local news is going to be completely chock full of wall-to-wall coverage of every facet of these cops' lives and families, complete with reverent, worshipful montages set to 80's rock again?

It's not the tribute so much as the exceptionalism that gets me.

[Rebubula]

20. I am not sure of your point...

...are you saying that honoring the lives of people that put themselves in harm's way is a bad thing?

[Chulanowa]

21. Not at all

No. When those four cops were murdered in Tacoma... Well, maybe you don't live in the area, but for a week there was no other news. At all. The Sea-Tac area local news was covering these four cops to the total exclusion of everything else. And then topped it off with what, in my opinion, was just tacky - a picture montage of those four and their families, set to power rock, that lasted well over an hour... During the hour news at night.

I'm all for honoring the officers killed in the line of duty. However, the local news turned it into what, to me, looked like a tacky, worshipful circus geared more for ratings than to show any honor, or even to provide information. it was the Seattle version of what the death of Michael Jackson was to the national media.

I'm simply hoping there's not a repeat of this.

[Rebubula]

22. Live in DC

I understand what you are saying. I did not get the 24/7 vigil for the 4 officers there, but I see your point.

This seems far more mild than the previous...well...executions of police there.

News is a common enemy...they force stories on people and THEY decide what is interesting. Sadly, we do live amongst the sheep and many people DO believe that Micheal Jackson was important or we needed to hear about Monica Lewinsky all day long.

Thank you for the clarification. Have a nice day.

[LiberalFighter]

23. I agree. They go way overboard by a 1,000,000 percent.

[onehandle]

27. 2 sheriff's officers badly hurt in Wash. shooting (ambushed)

Source: AP

EATONVILLE, Wash. – Two sheriff's officers responding to a dispute between two brothers were ambushed by one of the brothers lying in wait with a gun after being welcomed into the home by the other, authorities said. The gunman was killed and the officers were seriously wounded. The shooting is the third in three months in which authorities say a gunman has taken aim at law enforcement officials in Washington state.

Pierce County Sheriff's spokesman Ed Troyer said a sergeant and a deputy were shot at around 8:45 p.m. Monday while responding to a dispute between David E. Crable and his brother near Eatonville, a rural community in the Cascade foothills. Crable, 35, shot the two officers before he was killed when they returned fire, Troyer said. The names of the officers were not immediately released.

The officers were greeted at the door by Crable's brother, while Crable was in the house arming himself, Troyer said. When the deputies entered the house, Crable opened fire from upstairs, hitting one of the officers multiple times.

"This is somebody that was laying in wait for our guys, armed themselves, with the intent on shooting them," Troyer told reporters near the shooting scene. "There's not much we're going to be able to do when somebody is hiding and arming themselves and we have somebody else inviting us into the residence and the second person opens fire on us."

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091222/ap_on_re_us/us_officer_shooting_16

[derby378]

28. This is weird...

...because I'm hearing that violent crime involving firearms is trending downwards across America, but in Washington, crime involving handguns seems to be going up.

[tom_paine]

29. Not weird at all, for some time now the American Inverted Totalitarian government lies about

almost everything, and lies with the frequency of allThird Wold/Totalitarian governments, even though Inverted Totalitarianism closely mimics the working of a democratic-republic because of our national Founding Myth, which is identical to that of the ancient Romans.

So, we get closer and closer every day to being able to take out the 'almost'.

[rd_kent]

33. None of your post makes any sense at all.

[paulsby]

42. is that true?

don't extrapolate from officer involved shootings (a tiny %age of shootings) to the violent crime stats at large.


it's undeniable that there have been a disproportionate # of officers being shot at, or shot in the last couple of months in WA state. these 8 officers shot are just the tip of the iceberg. there was the incident in spokane the other day, the incident in thurston county, etc. which didn't make the national news cause either the bad guy missed, or got popped by us before he could kill us.

it doesn't therefore follow that crime involving handguns in WA state "seems to be going up"

stats would prove that. haven't seen any

[sharesunited]

30. Are these deputies rethinking any strong support they may previously have given the RKBA?

I have had actually had posters in the Guns Forum tell me that getting shot ain't no thing.

That it never for a moment caused them to even consider that guns and ammo might be a problem.

Such love might be truly touching if it were not such a menace.

[cabluedem]

32. The gun goons often claim support by cops. Simply not true at all. nt

[rd_kent]

35. Really? Can you support that fabrication with facts?

Support by cops IS well documented and has been shown several times. Please show YOUR evidence to the contrary.


I will wait....

[quiller4]

37. Chiefs of Police often support more restrictive gun laws but rank and file do not

The majority of Pierce County Deputies belong to the Second Amendment Foundation, Washington Firearms Collectors or some other pr-gun group. We often see members of local law enforcement at local ranges and talk to them about such matters.

[paulsby]

40. abolutely true, i say as an area police officer

anti-gunners constantly quote IACP or some other cop-o-crat organization. they no more represent cops than a CEO represents his employees (in most cases). there are exceptions, like the lakewood chief, who is a real cop, and spent years in patrol with PCSO.

most chiefs are political appointees. most sheriffs are elected, and thus not beholden to a city council or mayor. but in either case, politics can often trump their true beliefs. not to mention that many cop-o-crats served little to no time as a real cop

[SteveM]

62. Nah, he farts loudly, goes "Teehee," and runs from the room. (nt)

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[paulsby]

41. this officer is not

nor are any of the PCSO's i've talked to since the shooting.

this case, like the others says nothing about gun control

this guy had MULTIPLE DV orders against him. that alone prohibited him from possessing a gun.

cops are almost always shot by people not legally able to possess a gun, and in many cases, by fucksticks who got early parole (see: clemons) or almost never got the prison time they deserve.

we cops want violent felons locked up.

we don't want to disempower average citiZens of their RKBA. note that WA state constitution is explicit on the right to carry.

we also know that CCW'ers are far LESS likely to attack or kill us. that's been documented ad nauseum

[quiller4]

38. Troyer walked back the "ambushed" charge in more recent

press conferences. The officers arrived and talked with David Crable who initially agreed to leave his brother's house with them. He entered a bedroom to get his things and then came out of the bedroom shooting. Crable's brother and daughter dragged one wounded officer outdoors. The other officer was able to shoot and fatally wound David Crable. Crable's daughter ran to the neighbors and called in the "officer down" report bringing other officers to the scene.

David Crable's brother assisted one wounded officer until emergency teams arrived on the scene. Troyer credits the bother and daughter with saving one officer's life according to the press conference he gave today.

David Crable has a long history of violent encounters with family members. At different times the complaining brother, their mother and Crable's daughter had taken out restraining orders against David Crable.

It was not legal for David Crable to possess a firearm. Obviously, breaking the law didn't bother him too much.

[paulsby]

39. that;'s correct

it appears that david was the bad guy. the other two apparently knew nothing about what david was about to do, and in fact helped the officers after they got shot.

i wouldn't be surprised if the brother and daughter get citizen commendations.

this case says, more than anything, about the dangers of DV calls

whenever we are ejecting or "assisting" people in leaving a residence at a dv call, we do not let them out of our sight, for exactly this reason. not second guessing, just saying these are always volatile situations.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

45. Pardon me, I am confused

Exactly how do you define D.V. calls (domestic violence)? And, tell me if I am wrong, given the fact that multiple restraining orders were put on the perpetrator,can you tell me why it is the response to a ,what you call routine (dv) was treated as though it was just routine? The perp had a history ,of that there can be no doubt (multiple restraining orders) and behind all that is and was what? what in so far as the perps history?

Now I know I am on the edge here, but wouldn't you say there is a slight communication gap on this one?

You seem to be indicating that if better police procedure were carried out,the incident may very well have been contained. Now I would tend to agree with that.

Now than tell me if I am wrong, given the restraining orders put on the perp, does it not stand to reason there were many prior calls to 911 about this particular perp and at that address?And do cops not keep up on shift reports?

Indeed now without looking all that up, clearly there are procedural violations at various levels.And I am not focusing on the officers responding to call, I am looking at a serious lack of proper police communication.

[paulsby]

46. the thing that makes it DV

or more correctly domestic (it wasn't domestic VIOLENCE because as far as i know, no crime of violence was alleged, just the refusal to leave the house (although some people consider vandalism a crime of DV and under the law it is , it's not really violence imo regardless this was just a guy who wouldn't leave)), was the relationship. since the guy calling was a brother of the subject, that makes it "domestic" incident, but as far as i know no specific crime was alleged. the brother just wanted him to leave.

domestic is defined as related within the bounds of consanguinity, children in common, former or current (significant) dating relationship, or former or current cohabitants.

i'm not indicating the better procedures would have necessarily made a difference. but they could have. if the officers were standing and watching the guy he probably could have reached for the gun, ESPECIALLY if he had it staged properly and gotten at least a shot or two off.

i don't know what intel, if any, PCSO had on the guy before they arrived. you just don't know . maybe the caller hung up and didn't give the guy's name before the cops got there, or they were out of modem range (not surprising in eatonville) to get a return on his name, or whatever. there's just too many unknowns.

there weren't necessarily any procedural violations. many people have this false impression from watching CSI et al that we have all these high speed accessible nifty databases. not necessarily true, and of course if the RP didn't give good info or they had the name misspelled they would have never gotten the info, etc.

i'm one of the more intel and computer savvy officers. i used to be a computer nerd, so it comes naturally. but even i am often completely ignorant of the "who", "why" and "wherefore" before i arrive.

you can't say that clearly there was a procedural violation. you don't know PCSO's procedures do you? i don't. they are public record, and you could get a copy if you so desire. my agency, fwiw, has no such procedures.

fwiw, i also have a fair bit of knowledge about this case that i can't , won't, and haven't discussed, since it is LEO eyes only AT THIS POINT. when it's released publically, i can discuss it.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

47. Understand what you are saying.

I am not trying to pin you down on a point here. You must safely assume the perp had a history. That will very clearly seem to be a given. Another poster made use of the B word disguised as cop o crat. Paper does get shuffled.

You cannot deny the perps history is highly relevant to this case. And when that is made public ,there is where one would look for procedural violations. Unless of course the perp had some type of mental disorder of record and showed no past history of violence. That would account for the element of trust/or the lowering of guard. By the information available at this point,it will seem as though the officers on call thought the situation had been for the most part in it,defused.-thus fallowing through with the violators escort off the premises-,as is routine. If the information to date/time is correct.

Along the lines of cop programs on television, well, you can see a live show every week end in downtown Seattle. Folks have been watching since long before computer communication.Have you forgotten, this is Washington, it's all about the view.By the way,cop o crats if thats what they are called answer to the peoples view at city council meetings! Gang violence has changed things a great deal over the last twenty five years. Again, I am not looking at the officers on call necessarily where it may be about faulty police procedure.However even if there is procedural violations, that does not make it any less a tragedy.

[paulsby]

48. what i am saying is that it's doubtful that there was a

procedural violation . what procedure exactly "you must follow around and observe at all times a person who is being ejected from a house he is visiting while he collects his clothes"?

i've never worked in an agency with such a procedure. it's likely imo that they "ran" his name AFTER they got there (if they didn't have it before) and if he had orders against him, that would return in WACIC. that's not necessarily concerning. lots of people who have done nothing wrong get orders against them. it doesn't require a criminal trial, proof of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt etc.

apparently the guy had some DV convictions, those wouldn't show up in a WACIC check EITHER.

they would if you ran a criminal history, but you don't/can't do that at the scene. we have to have a special form and get it approved by a supervisor etc etc.

again, you have NO indication there was a procedural violation

people's history is always relevant. while you are cautious around everybody, you are clearly going to be extra careful around a guy with a violent crime history. if he was REALLY violent, he would be 10-65 in WACIC, but i don't even know if he was. LOTS of guys with DV convictions and orders are not 10-65. MOST aren't. iow, they are not considered armed/dangerous. a DV crime could be something as simple as punching a hole in a door during a hissy fit.

[quiller4]

50. According to Troyer, the officers heading to the scene knew

that the brother who was requesting assistance had a no contact order in place against the brother that was refusing to leave. The responding officers were enforcing that order

[paulsby]

54. actually, that's an anomaly in the story (update: anomaly explained)

because on the one hand troyer made it clear that the officers were simply asking the guy to leave and that there was no alleged crime

otoh, there are a few crimes that officers have NO discretion on, and one of those is a no contact order. so, they would have arrested him IF the order was valid and had been served.

it would be unprofessional for me to run his name to find out if in fact the order was served, non-expired, etc.

but that is an anamoly i cannot account for.

i guarantee you that IF there was a valid no contact order, it would have been an arrest situation

these guys wouldn't risk getting fired for blowing off a no contact order arrest.


***UPDATE***

per the seattle weekly

"UPDATE: KOMO News says that records show Crable was convicted of two crimes just this past June.

Crable was accused of threatening his 16-year-old daughter with a kitchen knife, shoving her up against a wall and slapping her across the head. When his brother tried to interfere, Crable grabbed him by the throat and pushed him out of the house.

By means of a plea deal, Crable was able to get probation for all but one day of his year-long sentence. He was also ordered to have no "hostile contact" with his brother or daughter."

saying he was "ordered to have no "hostile contact"" doesn't necessarily mean there is a no contact order. i'd say at least 95% of all no contact orders prohibit ALL contact. some allow contact via email or phone, but not in person or somethign like that. i've never seen one that just prohibits "hostile contact", so i'm getting the impression this was not a no contact oRDER but an order from the judge, iow a condition of release. here in WA state, we cannot even enforce those, as LEO's. only the court can. most of the time, we won;'t even have ANY knowledge of conditions of release unless its placed in WACIC because the guy is active DOC supervised.

so, i think that explains it. the fact that there probably was not a no-contact order. in fact, i'd bet almost certainly there was not one.

[quiller4]

60. Patsy, David's mother, sought and got an order in May that was modified in June

and lifted in July after David contested it in Pierce County Superior Court. (That information was obtainted through LINX search)

What was in place was the judges order that was part of terms and conditions of release.

[paulsby]

61. right

those orders are NOT enforceable by cops in WA state. we can advise the person not to violate them, IF we even know about it, but we can't take ANY enforcement action.

if i see a guy drinking in a bar, who has a condition of release through a city probation dept (which wouldn't be in WACIC) that he is not to drink alcohol or be in liquor establishments, but i might just happent to know about it for whatever reason, the only thing i could do was call his probation officer.

so, again, like i said - despite what other(s) said, there (apparently) was not a no-contact order in effect. which makes sense because they would have arrested him if he was there in violation of same.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

51. OK, you don't see or suspect any procedural violations.

Let me put it this way, there is a saying in baseball every kid learns at early ages, it's this way, never take your eye off the ball. Now learning how to play organized baseball as a youngster teaches the youngster about fallowing through in the game, just because it seems as though nothing much is happening, that does not mean nothing much will happen.And so the youngster learns in the game how to stay focused.

I think there is much to be learned here in this case.

In engineering there is Murphy's law, what can happen will happen. And than there is a thing called preventative measures. Positive measures to safeguard against accidental or incidental happenings that can or will result in bodily harm or even death.

OK so, is a routine dv call really going to be routine?At what point is a situation completely defused and who makes that call?And is an accident really an accident?

These are very basic questions to address.

Applies to science/engineering/art ,everything in life actually.Is this incident a accidental occurrence? Was there no oversight?Could oversight be a area to look at? What does it all mean, the perp went upstairs to gather clothing and came out of the room shooting ? What does that all mean?

[paulsby]

55. in every critical incident

there is much to learn. we hold debriefs, frequently, after critical incident. it's NOT about second guessing. it's about learning.

we will never know what it all means because the perp is dead. did he decide before the police even arrived, that he was going to shoot it out with them? did he decide it spur of the moment?

who knows?

what you are doing is what i call "jack mccoyism" , trying to stretch the law (or procedure) to place blame

cops frequently play murphy's law. it keeps us alive (usually).

it actually sounds like (i reread one of the articles) that these cops DID know about crable's history.

there is no "accident" here. every indication is that crable shot at the cops intentionally. where is the "accident"?

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

56. Pardon me again

I am thinking in theory. When you look at a fine painting do you look straight at it or do you look around it? You look around it and at the same time look at everything within.

It's not about assigning blame as you seem to think.

Let me ask you this, could the incident have been prevented?
Because in the process of learning by it as you take it apart and look at the various details ,the first thing you will want to find out is what could have been done to prevent that situation from happening or happening again.

And that's a engineering principal that applies to your field.
You are wrong about looking to assign blame. And if there is blame to be assigned,I am sure it will find it's way to where it belongs.

The scumbag got taken down and out.
For that we are thankful.

[paulsby]

57. the issue to me isn't

could the issue be prevented, but given what the officers knew at the time, and given reasonable restraints on procedure due to constitutional law, dept. policy, and common sense, was there anything within those restrictions that they could have done, and been reasonably expected to do?

quite possibly yes. again, we don't know. even assuming they followed him around as he gathered his clothes, he still could have shot them.

would that have been BETTER officer safety? absolutely.

i don't think i would let the guy collect his clothes without keeping constant visual on him. and if he resisted that, and I ended up having to take him down hard and tase/use force, many people here would be saying "excessive, he was just trying to gather his clothes and the officer wouldn't let him bla bla".

we get second guessed all the time. my partner tased a 15 yr old mentally challenged kid last night. was it justified? sure. but i guarantee people would be questioning it. would the kid have tried to murder us, or succeeded if he wasn't tased? we'll never know , since he was tased.

it's always difficult to determine what the cops prevented, when stuff DOESN'T happen.

oh, and in my other post, i explain why there almost certainly was NOT a no-contact order. not sure if it was you who brought that up.

but in brief, as a field trainer, and experienced officer, i would not let the guy collect his clothes without watching him do so.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

58. In your bottom line

that's what I meant by bringing in the organized aspects about teaching the kids how to play ball. Anything can happen. It's about keeping your eye on the ball.

Grant it there were things going on at the scene. I do not assume the officers involved were simply standing around waiting for the perp to gather his possessions.

No doubt the perps brother was telling and talking a lot. The young girl too. I would assume all the information or that which was relevant to the issues were being communicated.
And we know police also have to be acting social workers at times.

There was no doubt a lot going on within the situation.

Preventive measures are about police safety ,not just public safety.
Preventive measures, keep your eye on the ball.

Thank you for your input.
And Merry Christmas!

[paulsby]

59. mele kalikimaka

and keep the officer in your prayers. still in critical condition at harborview.

[quiller4]

49. Not at that address. Previous calls had been to a Spanaway address

where, until recently, the perp lived with his mother.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

53. That's something,

however something must have been conveyed through 911 dispatch to the tune of the perp having been more or less a repeat violator.