The truth about MP's expenses

[T_i_B]

I thought I might as well post this thread for all the lurid details of MP's expenses that the Torygraph has promised us over the next few weeks. The Cabinet's details have come out first and the details of the rest of them are promised at a later date.

Feel free to comment about Brown's plumber, Blears claiming for three properties in one year, Prescott's bog seats and Jack straw's council tax here.

You are also more them welcome to post details of other dodgy expense claims from other politicians as and when they get brought to light.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/

[dipsydoodle]

1. BBC News link

Cabinet ministers face questions after full details of their expenses claims were published by the Daily Telegraph.

They include a claim for £6,500 made by Gordon Brown to pay his brother for a cleaner for his Westminster flat.

Minister Hazel Blears claimed for three homes in one year and spent nearly £5,000 on furniture in three months.

Mr Brown said the system did not work and had to change: "MPs have to live in two places. But we need a system that is better than the one we've got. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8039108.stm

On the above basis I think we should all get an extra £6500 on personal tax allowances.

I'm guessing the outcome of the next local elections will be heavily biased by the antics of our MP's with Labour suffering the most. Good job - fuck 'em.

[ikri]

2. Police called in on MPs' expenses leak

From http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/08/expenses_leak_probe/">The Register

Police have been called in to investigate the apparent presence of a mole in the Parliamentary fees office.

The Daily Telegraph today ran a series of stories exposing ministers' expenses claims, after it obtained the data from a confidential source.

A middle man has reportedly been shopping a CD containing fees office records to newspapers for several weeks. It's been suggested the Telegraph paid £150,000 for the data, which was also the basis of the recent exposure of Jacqui Smith's husband reclaiming the cost of on-demand porn from the taxpayer.

Why bother even attempting to address the issues when you can attack the messenger?

[T_i_B]

3. "Why bother even attempting to address the issues when you can attack the messenger?"

Well I must admit that what I keep hearing from the likes of Harriet harman is truly pathetic. It's not good enough that these claims were within the system. The system is utterly flawed and was conceived by MP's themselves. And just as the system was conceived in bad faith it's been applied in bad faith too. MP's have only themselves to blame for the contempt in which they are now held.

Here's a little titbit that sums up what's wrong with these people perfectly. And why on earth does Barbara Follet need so much security?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5298303/MPs-expenses-The-best-of-the-begging-letters.html

"From a natural justice perspective I feel a justifiable exception would be the fairest manner to deal with the current situation" – letter from Labour MP in 2006 on why he should be allowed to claim for a £3,100 Sony 40 inch TV

[ikri]

4. The solution seems obvious

I require a computer to do my job, so my employer provides me with one. If I leave that employment I wouldn't expect to keep the computer.

If my company gives me a car to aid me with my job I would not expect to keep the car when I leave the job.

The easy answer would surely be to let the MPs buy what they need to do their jobs but they all need to realise that items bought using the public purse belong to the public.

When they leave, everything they've bought should be returned to the country and resold to recoup some of the outlay (within reason, no one wants a 4 year old cheese sandwich).

[LeftishBrit]

7. ITA!

The ironic thing, of course, is that the recent governments of both parties have been demanding micromanagement at an insane level; obsessed with 'accountability' to a degree that can turn life into one long exam; cutting essential services for the sake of 'prudence' and 'cost-effectiveness'. But they themselves don't apply the slightest bit of 'accountability' or 'cost-effectiveness' to their own actions, and we are expected to pay for it.

[fedsron2us]

5. Apparently TheyWorkfForYou.com is changing its name to TheyStealFromYou.com

[T_i_B]

6. MPs could face income tax bills over expenses

It's been the Tories turn to get it today, and it was interesting to note that Michael Gove's column in the Times today made no mention of his or anyone else's expense fiddles.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5305193/MPs-could-face-income-tax-bills-over-expenses.html

Experts said that disclosures about the way some politicians have used Commons expenses called into question tax exemptions given to MPs for payments made for the purpose of performing their parliamentary duties. HM Customs and Revenue is expected to review the cases of MPs who made claims that lawyers said were hard to justify as work-related. That could leave some members facing claims for back tax.

Most ordinary workers incur tax liabilities for some allowances and expenses paid by their employers. But MPs vote themselves far more generous treatment. The Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003, gave MPs a special exemption from tax liabilities relating to their allowances.

Section 292 of the Act states that no income tax liability arises from allowances paid to MPs for “additional expenses necessarily incurred by the Member in staying overnight away from the Member’s only or main residence, for the purpose of performing parliamentary duties.”

One leading tax lawyer said that recent disclosures about the items and services that MPs have funded using their allowances raised serious questions about whether all the payments could reasonably be considered to be work-related. “It is hard to think that many of the items that have been exposed meet this stringent requirement,” the lawyer said.

[T_i_B]

8. Elliot Morley claimed £16,000 for mortgage that did not exist

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5320852/Elliot-Morley-claimed-16000-for-mortgage-that-did-not-exist-MPs-expenses.html

Mr Morley, the ex-agriculture minister, continued claiming for the mortgage interest on his constituency home for more than 18 months after the loan had been repaid.

Lawyers said that the claims could constitute a criminal offence under the 2006 Fraud Act and the 1968 Theft Act.

The disclosure is the most serious to be uncovered so far by The Daily Telegraph during the week-long investigation into MPs’ expenses.

There is expected to be pressure on the Prime Minister to take action against Mr Morley today. It is not clear why the former minister was not reported for further investigation when he informed the Chief Whip of his mortgage claims last week.

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. Probably the worst so far

How could you claim for 18 months? It's just about believable that if you were still paying the mortgage at the beginning of a year, you'd fill in something at the end and just multiply the expenses at the start by 12 - if you were really dumb (too dumb to be an MP). But all that time?

And notice further down in the story, he was renting his 'primary residence' out at the time, and then started claiming the property he was renting out as his 2nd home!

It's fraud.

[T_i_B]

11. Well, he's been supended from the Labour party now.

However, the allegations keep coming, today about Claire Short and Shahid Malik, the Justice Minister. Shahid Malik evidently feels it would be an injustice to pay the money back.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5328311/MPs-expenses-Shahid-Malik-refuses-to-pay-claims-back.html

The Daily Mail has also launched a campaign to bring private prosecutuions against the worst offenders. However, I would like to suggest that we introduce a recall system as they have in the US and was used to kick Gray Davis out and bring in Arnold Schwarzernegger as governor of California. I think that's as good a method as any of getting rid of those MP's who are clearly in it for personal gain over and above the needs of their constituents.

[T_i_B]

13. Just as another update...

Shaid Malik has been suspended as a minister, David Chaytor (MP for Bury North) has been suspended as a Labour MP and today's revelations are about MP's who tried to stop the abuses of the expense system from ever coming to our attention. It appears that we can add David Maclean, the Tory MP for Penrith to the list of MP's unfit to hold elected office.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5336230/MPs-expenses-cash-secrets-of-MPs-who-tried-to-stop-you-seeing-their-expenses.html

And on another note, as anybody here got a local MP who's been caught with their fingers in the till over this?

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. No, though mine spent quite a lot, overall

There's the already public figures here - that just gives '2nd home allowance', without the breakdown on how it was claimed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8044207.stm

The 2nd home limit that year was £23,083 (claimed by about 140 MPs); the median claim was about £21,000. Mine spent about £22,500.

I'm in the constituency next door to Chris Huhne, of the trouser press and Hobnobs claims. The local paper has had a bit of a laugh, but it's not outrage. He has a very small majority over the Tories - about 500 in 2005, but may have been helped a little by the decision of the prospective Labour candidate to defect to the Lib Dems last month, saying

"Eastleigh is a two horse race between Chris who has a proven record as a progressive politician and a hard worker for Eastleigh or Maria Hutchings, who - whatever her personal qualities - supports right wing reactionary policies on Europe, immigration and local issues," said Dan Clarke on the Labour blog Labourhome.

"I want to see greater social justice, more care taken over the environment and greater equality of opportunities.

"In my view, the Labour Party is no longer the party which seeks to achieve my ideals. I will leave the Labour Party and I am joining the Liberal Democrats. At the next election I will back Chris Huhne.

"I want to be a political activist who works for what is right. I have concluded that joining the Liberal Democrats will allow me to do this. Time and again, I have found myself thinking that Chris Huhne is right on issues as varied as Trident, Climate Change, the economy and civil liberties whilst the government is wrong on them," said Dan.

http://www.chrishuhne.org.uk/news/000679/labours_man_in_key_eastleigh_seat_switches_to_lib_dems.html

[T_i_B]

17. The scandal's just hit the neighbouring constituency to mine

Oh, and isn't Anthony Steen near you Muriel?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5368817/MPs-expenses-Bernard-Jenkin-claims-50000-in-rent-on-farmhouse-owned-by-sister-in-law.html

Mr Jenkin, a former deputy chairman of the party, has been allowed until this August to pay his wife’s sister using his second home allowance even though a recent Commons rule change states that MPs must not use family members as landlords. Mr Jenkin also faces questions about the amount he spends on rent given that his sister-in-law, part of a wealthy landowning family who now lives in a castle in Scotland, does not have a mortgage on his constituency property.

Mr Jenkin, an MP since 1992, currently represents North Essex. He is married to Anne Jenkin, a PR consultant, who went out with Richard Curtis, the screenwriter, at university. The fact that Mr Jenkin won her heart is commemorated by the inclusion of jokes at the expense of a character called Bernard in many of Mr Curtis’s television series and films, from Blackadder to Four Weddings and a Funeral. Mr Jenkin and his wife live in Kennington, south London. He nominates as his second home a substantial Essex farmhouse.

The property is owned outright by Mary Fraser, Mrs Jenkin’s older sister, who lives at Moniack Castle near Inverness, which has been in her husband’s family since 1580.

On the other side of a lane from the farmhouse near Chelmsford is a historic country house whose registered owners are Mrs Fraser and Mrs Jenkin, where their mother, the daughter of a viscount, lives. The girls’ younger brother, Lord Rayleigh, owns thousands of acres in the county. Mr Jenkin’s files show that he paid his sister-in-law £49,500 in rent between 2004 and 2008, with the monthly bill rising from £1,000 to £1,250 recently. However since 2006 the Green Book of rules for MPs’ allowances has banned them from entering into business arrangements with relatives over their second homes.

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. Steen is in Devon - a fair way away. Sir Peter "Duck Island" Viggers is close

in Gosport, but I hadn't even heard of him until this. The local news had people reacting to the duck stuff, and, unsurprisingly, it was uniformly negative. He also claimed '£30,000 of taxpayers’ money for “gardening” over three years, including nearly £500 for 28 tons of manure'. Everyone said they were glad he was going.

I also saw that the Tories in the seat I was in for the last election (the boundaries have changed since) were saying that when Andrew Lansley, shadow health secretary, visited the constituency, they were saying "we hope no-one notices he's here".

[T_i_B]

21. My apologies.

I got mixed up with which MP was embarassing people in Gosport.

Anyway, here's some more on Antony Steen from a Labour blogger

http://kerroncross.blogspot.com/search/label/Anthony%20Steen

And the story form today's Telegraph which caught my eye about Liberal Democrat MP Malcolm Bruce claiming for 2 properties.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5375097/MPs-expenses-Liberal-Democrat-MP-Malcolm-Bruce-claimed-running-costs-for-two-homes.html

[mwooldri]

33. It is far easier to run for Parliament in the UK than US Congress...

Get 10 constituents to back you, have an "agent", and £500 (about $800).

You do have spending limits - but then you're also going up again the main political parties who can do national advertising.

If there was a serious effort to unseat a particular politician for being incredibly unpopular, then this can work (see Martin Bell). Otherwise most people protest-vote for the opposition.

Mark.

[BooScout]

10. My wish is we could fire them all.......

and start over with a whole new lot of them. The only requirement being that the new MPs have no previous experience with politics.

[fedsron2us]

12. In late news Ronnie Biggs says the Great Train Robbery was an 'Accounting Oversight'

[T_i_B]

15. Sir Peter Viggers claimed for £1,600 floating duck island

Quackers

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5357568/MPs-expenses-Sir-Peter-Viggers-claimed-for-1600-floating-duck-island.html

Sir Peter, the MP for Gosport, submitted an invoice for a “Stockholm” duck house to the Commons fees office.

The floating structure, which is almost 5ft high and is designed to provide protection for the birds, is based on an 18th-century building in Sweden. The receipt, from a firm specialising in bird pavilions, said: “Price includes three anchor blocks, duck house and island.”

It was announced last night that following The Daily Telegraph’s disclosures, Sir Peter will retire at the next election.

His expenses files reveal that he was paid more than £30,000 of taxpayers’ money for “gardening” over three years, including nearly £500 for 28 tons of manure.

[muriel_volestrangler]

16. From Liberal Conspiracy:

http://www.liberalconspiracy.org.nyud.net:8080/images/media/lolpic_ducks.jpg

[D-Notice]

19. I've made this handy guide for our MPs

[T_i_B]

20. Ah, D-Notice...

What's this I hear about you trying to run for Parliament? :-)

http://d-notice.blogspot.com/2009/05/honourable-member-for-bethnal-green-bow.html

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. Way better than Esther Rantzen

Let's hear it for D-Notice!

:party:

[non sociopath skin]

23. Sorry, Comrade. After this, Berlusconi would get my vote before you did!

http://twitter.com/dnotice/statuses/1904787838

:spank:

The Skin

[D-Notice]

24. Sorry...

It's nothing personal. It's just my views of the Geordies have been clouded by speaking with their fans - they think the team is a lot bigger and better than what it really is.

Anyway, yes, subject to getting funding for the deposit (£500.00) I'm going to stand as MP in the Bethnal Green & Bow constituency. The way I see it, I can't be any worse! ;-)

[non sociopath skin]

25. Let's hope the people of East London meet your expectations better than my folk could hope to do, DN

May they be worthy of the gift you have chosen to bestow upon them: for my part, I will watch your quest for political fame with greater than usual interest.

The Skin

[D-Notice]

26. Aw thanks :-)

*passes around the begging bowl*

[non sociopath skin]

27. Sorry, didn't get that one, DN.

Obviously your humour is a little too sophisticated for us over-reaching Northerners.

Thank you kindly anyway, yer honour. Gawd bless yer.

The Skin.

[D-Notice]

28. I'm an over-reaching Northerner as well

... just emigrated darn sarf...

[non sociopath skin]

29. OK, DN, maybe I over-reacted a little ...

... but that kind of crowing over the demise of a lot of peoples' (admittedly spurious) hopes and dreams pushes all my buttons.

Too good a sport to be a good sports fan, I guess ...

O8)

The Skin

[T_i_B]

31. Well since you've got the begging bowl out...

Is there anything you need on here, such as an ongoing thread or a link to the Facebook group?

[D-Notice]

32. That would be helpful

Facebook group and blog category.

I'll probably start up a separate thread when the election is called.

As of now, I have over £500.00 in funds and pledges, which covers the deposit.

[T_i_B]

34. Joined the Facebook group

I'd post details of some of the other people like Simon Heffer who are looking to stand as independent's but instead I'll post another story about the expenses issue, this time about Sheffield Heely MP Meg Munn.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5384341/MPs-expenses-Dennis-Watts-husband-of-MP-Meg-Munn-paid-for-tax-advice-by-ministers.html

[LeftishBrit]

36. Very best of luck!

I'm not on Facebook, and due to a (relatively mild, but unnerving) recent cyberstalking incident, don't feel like joining at present - but let me know if there's anything else I can do - e.g. a link for campaign donations, which I could inform people of.

[D-Notice]

38. Thanks!

There's a Plegdebank pledge and I'm also taking PayPal donations to dnoticeblogATyahooDOTcoDOTuk

:-)

[dipsydoodle]

30. There is also the issue of "severance pay"

Michael Martin rejected a recommendation by outside experts that restrictions were needed on MPs claiming the generous severance package. It is offered because of the “uncertainty” that comes with the job.

The Speaker’s Committee, chaired by Mr Martin, dismissed proposals that MPs who decide to stand down, rather than lose their seats, should not claim the money.
>

MPs who lose their seat or stand down at a general election receive a generous taxpayer-funded settlement. After the 2005 election, 136 members received an average grant of 64 per cent of their salary at a cost of £5.3 million. Only a quarter were defeated and the rest announced that they were standing down in advance.

MPs who lose their seat or stand down receive between six and 12 months’ salary, equivalent to £32,383 to £64,766, depending on their age and length of service. They can also claim a maximum of £40,799 for “winding-up costs” to terminate office leases and pay off staff, including spouses who worked for them. Ministers get three months’ salary in addition when they leave the Government.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6283268.ece

IMHO they should receive only, at best, the statutory redundancy payment the rest of us receive albeit their positions have not been made redundant. As a general rule anything classed as severance pay isn't taxable.

It is currently anticipated that between a half and two thirds of MPs will not be seated in Parliament following the next general election.

[LeftishBrit]

35. I would actually support good severance pay for MPs...

but in return for a cap on salaries; drastic reduction in the sort of expenses they can claim; and their doing the job full-time (combining it with another job should mean that they *don't* get the severance pay).

Being an MP *is* an uncertain job, and if there's a likelihood that defeat will result in sudden loss of all income, then there's a risk that only the rich will stand for Parliament, and we will go back to a sort of rule by aristocracy.

However, they definitely do not deserve all these massive perks they've been getting!

[dipsydoodle]

37. MP's have what in effect are fixed term contracts

with no actual guarantee of renewal. As such , no , I don't think they should get any severance pay at all. It would be better to increase their salaries to reflect this. At least in that way everything would be open, transparent and taxable. I think some of these things have come about to disguise MP's true earnings and overcome the embarrasment of increasing their pay above national norms.

[dipsydoodle]

39. Uptodate BBC summary here

The Daily Telegraph has obtained details of MPs' expenses claims over the past four years which it has published.

Here is a summary of the claims made by some Labour politicians and their reaction to the reports.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8039273.stm

I'm really surprised that Claire Short is on the list. IMHO she's a good sort and its clear she paid back the expenses claimed in error 3 years ago.

[T_i_B]

40. MPs' expenses made public online

It's been published officially today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8105227.stm

MPs' expenses: Find your MP and what they've claimed (from BBC website)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8106044.stm

[moggie]

41. And there are interesting redactions

The BBC has compared some of today's data with the same documents released in May last year as a result of FOI requests. Among the things we're apparently not allowed to know:

• Tony Blair doesn't pay utility bills on time;
  
• The specific model of the Blairs' dishwasher;
  
• Ming the Merciless leaves arithmetic to mere mortals;
  
• Margaret Beckett's plants were too expensive.
  

[T_i_B]

42. Quentin Davies’ claims £20,000 for a bell tower

It's time for another update!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6781881/MPs-expenses-Quentin-Davies-claims-for-a-bell-tower.html

The former Conservative MP, who defected to Labour when Gordon Brown became Prime Minister two years ago, sought to withdraw the claim five months later at the height of the Daily Telegraph’s disclosures about widespread abuse of Commons allowances.

When he submitted the £20,700 bill for repairs to the “bell tower and lead gutter” at the property in Boston, Lincs, last February, Mr Davies wrote to Commons officials saying that he was aware the claim exceeded the maximum permitted under second home allowances.

He asked to be paid the remainder of his allocation for the year, and received £5,377.