Question - Should the hate crime laws be extended to cover "class hate"

[Hopeless Romantic]

Surely, as it is immoral to discriminate against someone because of their race, religion or sexuality, then it is also immoral to discriminate because of someones "class" or socio-economic position or background.

Discuss?

[miscsoc]

1. No, not really.

Class isn't something you're born into, it's a social position and is DEFINED by your relationship with others and your power over them or lack of it. Nobody is forced to be a CEO. It's fully legitimate to discriminate against those higher up in the class system, in fact it's morally necessary in many contexts.

That applies to an extent to religion, too, inasmuch as your religion impacts on others.

[Hopeless Romantic]

3. Class is certainly something you can be born into

You're not telling me that The Duke of Westminster was not born into a privileged class of people? "Upper class", "Landed gentry", "aristocracy" or whatever.

What I had in mind though is discrimination against the less fortunate classes.

Should terms like "Oik", "Chav" and so on be considered as bad as some of the racial and homophobic ones?

I suppose that would also be extended to terms like "toffs" and "knobs".

Is it right to call Cameron a "Tory Toff" or is that in some way not politically correct?

[miscsoc]

14. What I meant was

The duke of westminster is upper class, but if he CHOSE to he could renounce his position. I should have phrased it differently - class is not something beyond your control, like skin colour or sexuality. So I think it's legitimate to discriminate against the likes of him, as he chooses to embrace his unjust privileges.

[miscsoc]

15. As for oik/chav, etc, I think they should be treated like "nigger" or whatever

i.e. in the same way a white person calling a black person a nigger is wrong, a rich person calling a poor person a chav is wrong. Since white people are (generally) in a position of power over black people.

By the same token, "toff" or whatever is similar to, like, uh..."honky" or the like - it's not as bad. Actually it's a lot more acceptable than "honky" since there are quite a lot of situations where a black person is in the position of power over the white person (much less than the other way round) whereas pretty much by definition the upper class person is more powerful than the lower class one.

P.S. "honky" is the only anti white slur I could think of.

[Hopeless Romantic]

17. I'm not sure I can agree with any of that

I really don't think you can make one hateful slur worse than another.

Nigger is appalling of course, but the reverse is equally true.

And how about hate crime between members of different minorities?

How about if a black man calls a gay man a poof, and the gay man responds with nigger?

Which is worse?

Or how about an Asian saying nigger to a black man? Is that more or less acceptable than a black man saying paki to an asian?

A few years ago I heard a black man say

"I fucking hate pakies"

I remarked that I was surprised that he would say that as, being a member of a minority himself, he would be aware of the issues surrounding racism and discrimination.

"Yeah" he said, "Well I've got to hate someone haven't I"

[miscsoc]

18. There's some truth to what you say.

It's all about context, and the power relationships involved in the social situation in which the slur is spoken.

In general, in a white majority country like Britain, nigger IS much more appalling than a black persons racial slur vs. white people. But, yeah, a white kid in, say, a mainly black school, will probably suffer from being racially insulted by a black majority as much as a black kid would in a white school.

So, point taken

[EmilyKent]

2. Interesting. What would constitute class hate legally?

Names? Assault? Govt policies? Republicanism?

[Hopeless Romantic]

4. Not sure. It would have to have parallels I suppose with existing

anti-racist/homophobic legislation.

[dipsydoodle]

5. Laughing at somebody

because they dropped their h's. :rofl:

Next up - laws against picking on people with ginger hair.

[Hopeless Romantic]

6. Well you may laugh but

We ginger folks maintain that gingerism is a real problem for us

See here for instance http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6725653.stm

I think we deserve the same rights and protection as everyone else

[dipsydoodle]

7. I might have known.........

:rofl:

:pals:

[non sociopath skin]

9. You think you have problems?

What about us poor bloody slapheads?

The Skin

[T_i_B]

10. Nowt wrong with being folically challenged...

...as long as you don't wear a wig! :wow:

[miscsoc]

16. Reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUdfdzm0EpU

[dipsydoodle]

19. snap

:rofl:

#1 haircuts are the order of the day.

[Hopeless Romantic]

21. Apparently you have a measure protection

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/10393803.stm

[realcrookswearsuits]

8. Try explaining that to the door man at Whites Club.

and see if you get in

[Dutch]

11. The fact that you lot all seem to regard class discrimination as a joke

perhaps sums up the desperate condition of the British left at the moment.

[T_i_B]

13. Perhaps it sums up the way such a law could be abused

And worse still, the way such a law could be abused by the upper classes.

Far better to have government soaking the rich and redistributing wealth really. That's what we need to get back to.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

12. That would mean the abolition of capitalism would it not?

Considering how the working people of this country are treated with such contempt by the super-rich and hegemonic hangers on of the neoliberal political and media classes.

[LeftishBrit]

20. I don't see how this would work

Firstly, how will people ever define 'class' for this sort of legal purpose? Is this restricted to class based on birth or ancestry or early upbringing, or does it include any 'hate' between rich and poor, or bosses versus bossed?

I fear that this would become an excuse for Keeping the Poor in Their Place, and stopping them from Complaining about their Betters.