NEW update on BBV site

[SueZhope]

any one see this yet?
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

[SueZhope]

1. from the site

Last updated: Thursday Dec. 2, 2004 -- Black Box Voting demands retraction from Keith Olberman. We have given him the option to correct his factually flawed editorial by having Bev Harris come the on his show (contrary to his assertions, neither he nor his staff have EVER asked Harris to show anyone the Volusia County tapes. (One Olberman's producers did ask Harris to appear on the Countdown show, twice, both times BEFORE Harris came to Florida or uncovered Volusia County irregulaties. In both cases, after Harris had cleared her schedule to appear, right before the show, Olberman's producers canceled the appearance without explanation. Harris has always agreed to go on Olberman's show, and Olberman is the one who canceled, not Harris. The Volusia County tapes were showed to CNN cameramen, but Harris has never been asked to show any Volusia County materials to Olberman, MSNBC producers, NBC producers, CNBC producers, or anyone else with that TV network or its affiliates. Also contrary to Olberman's claims, Harris is not making a documentary, but the makers of the Votergate documentary, an independent team who captured the Volusia County trash incident on film, are eager to interview Keith Olberman on camera to ask him why he produced this report.

[Snivi Yllom]

8. Ok, so who's lying Keith or Bev?

[AmyCrat]

11. that was my question last night...

what would happen if THIS EXACT SCENARIO occurred. Who would people believe?

It's a shame really.

[smartvoter]

69. Well, this sucks.

No matter how you slice it or who's telling the truth.

[mdb]

103. One thing I kept in mind was Bev did not even have the tapes from FL until

about the 13th of Nov. And that KO talked of the 8th of Nov.

I also kept in mind while lots were screaming about Bev talking of taking action with DU about trade names on Nov 13th, she thought of all of us and came on here on or about Nov 16th to have a conversation with all of us about her finding the tapes in FL. and most were praising her for what she discovered.

[Patsy Stone]

95. I read your post last night, and wondered myself

because I was thinking the same thing. Here we go again...
It's gettin' ugly in here now. Stay low and keep your head covered. :)

[texpatriot2004]

110. It absolutely is a shame. No matter what this hurts the issue. n/t

[IAMREALITY]

31. I Won't Use the Word Lying for Either, Necessarily,

and I don't care what fellow DU'rs think of my opinion on this, as the majority of the time I share the majority of productive DU opinions, in this case I trust K.O.. My brief reason? Not slamming Bev at all, but KO has nothing to lose or gain from words with Bev, we know he has an interest what's best for America, and my brain just can't find any reason for him to create this when he has nothing to gain from it and no credibility to lose from it. Now once again, NOT SLAMMING BEV, but she DOES have something to lose, gain, or protect, so I gotta trust KO on this one...

[Snivi Yllom]

81. What word would you use rather than lying?

They are claiming opposite accounts:

Keith says they did not cancel on her and have repeatedly asked her to come on since the cancellation, as well as show the tape.

Bev says MSNBC cancelled on her, and have not asked her back. She says they have never asked her to see the tape.


One of them is lying. It's black and white.

[Kelvin Mace]

56. I wouldn't use the word lying

I'm sure Bev believes that is what happened. I would support Keith take on the matter though.

Why?

Check the pattern. At various times Bev has had nothing but praise for various activists, reporters, etc. But then, when they questioned her as Keith has done, they were threatened with law suits and/or tarred as "the enemy"

How many times does this have to happen before folks catch on? Hell, she even threatened to action against DU.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[noclonyofthechimp]

58. I think communications got crossed. The issue seems to be that

she didn't come on the show with the tapes, but she says she was never invited on the show regarding the polling tapes. She did admit to being invited twice, but that THEY canceled her at the last minute, which I find very unprofessional.

[mary195149]

9. Wow!!

If Bev is willing to go on Countdown, let's email Keith to get her on asap.

[texpatriot2004]

23. The BBV response it PATHETIC! It didn't take them long

to update the site about this issue, like AmyCrat said above. It's stupid and foolish to fight with the only mainstream media friend that we have. The BBV response looks childish and egotistical. Who do they think they are? It's very unprofessional and very disappointing to those who care about this issue. BBV is hurting their credibility. It won't matter if they are "right" if the perception is that they are uncooperative. I am so angry and hurt. Their response is depressing.

[seito]

34. I agree

This is too important to play silly games. They spokesperson from BBV said "...are eager to interview Keith Olberman on camera to ask him why he produced this report" How does this help the nation? I would have liked to have heard they were eager to go on national news to expose the fraud they have uncovered...

[texpatriot2004]

63. Yeah, it seems like if Bev/BBV had just gone to KO in private

and hashed it out. You know, since KO basically sent out an engraved invitation to them last night. But, no, to issue a basically public statement on their website attacking Keith, the main ally for this cause in the media is foolish and arrogant on the part of BBV. Not to mention immature and unprofessional. How can it possibly help this issue? The response of Bev/BBV is reactive and a perfect example of the "grandstanding" that Keith alluded to in his blog.

[bullimiami]

79. tex i dont understand why KOs blog is gospel for you.

Keith seems to have started a public flame war with Bev. Maybe he should have tried to contact her __directly__ first, did he? or did he leave it to his "producers". The producers that maybe cancelled Bev twice and didnt tell him.

I dont know the details except what KO has written and what Bev has written.

Maybe there is an explaination that has more to do with communication. Its possible.

Bev responded to an attack today but as far as I see she didnt start it. Remember also Bev actually has a lot of work going on besides publicity. KO is just there to do a news show. For him its full time for her its a "fit in".

[texpatriot2004]

93. I read his blog and from what I can tell, he was double dog

daring her to come on the show. My experience with BBV and Bev is that they are too busy for everything. They are not allowing those who would help to be of service, even in the smallest ways, answer the phone, update (or revamp) their site. I guess, in the last month, KO has done more for me by covering the issue daily than BBV has. I mean, I hear that Bev and Co are very busy, I hear that alot. People are always defending them with the "they are so busy" excuse. They are also only 3 people. What's up with that? There are folks willing to help, but as far as I can tell, they have been ignored. I think it's wrong. I am not a freeper. I think it's okay to discuss things, even disagree, as long as it's done appropriately and reasonably. I AM GRATEFUL FOR THE FIELD WORK THAT BEV AND CO HAVE DONE! I HAVE SAID THAT FOR A MONTH NOW. I think, on this matter, they are very wrong.

[AmyCrat]

104. tex, you and are are of one mind...

on this issue!

[texpatriot2004]

107. I noticed that AmyCrat. I am glad I'm in good company n/t

[Ducks In A Row]

123. Bev doesn't need Keith, he needs her. He should be groveling ...

at her feet.

Btw, she's on independent media radio (AAR, Pacifica), but then they didn't insist she censor herself.

Countdown can go crap on itself.

[Ducks In A Row]

122. Why should BBV be the ones to "go in private"

Bev doesn't need them. She's been going interviews just fine all this time with independent media (AAR, Pacifica)

And the IM doesn't insist she censor herself, like Countdown wanted her to do. Countdown cancelled because she refused to filter herself, she insisted on saying FRAUD.

Keith should grovel and beg, and maybe Bev will give him a crumb.

But he doesn't deserve it, since he couldn't be bother to tell her himself, and let it to the "Staff"

[Jersey Devil]

49. So how come we haven't been graced with a response here at DU from Bev?

She could straighten this all out right here and now if she wanted to.

[Kelvin Mace]

57. That's what her proxies are for

[Jersey Devil]

64. LOL, well, maybe you are right

I could guess who it may be but then I might have my post poofed!

[noclonyofthechimp]

60. true

[texpatriot2004]

102. Good question. I guess she's "too busy"

I would have thought that she would have posted something here right after she updated her website.

[Ducks In A Row]

120. why should she? the freepers are out in force and she doesn't ....

need the bullshit they will spew.

I say kudos to her for not rewarding freepers.

[Sperk]

53. I don't get it.....if in fact Olbermans report was incorrect (I don't

know if it is), why wouldn't Bev refute it? If standing up for yourself is foolish....we are all in big trouble. And if in fact Olbermans report is wrong....what kind of a "friend" is that. I think we need to see her on Countdown and let them hash it out in person...then we can evaluate.

[Jersey Devil]

61. I agree completely - the correct response would have been to go on the

show. If she can't show the vote tapes or the videotapes for some reason she should explain what those reasons are and if she can show them she should do so without hesitation. IMO Olbermann in his blog was basically begging her to come on and talk about it. Her response, challenging Keith and MSNBC to a pissing match, was stupid and counterproductive.

[tbuddha]

73. That's terible you think that way

I wish you would stop, really. I have no reason to not trust Bev at all. I have plenty of reasons to not trust MSNBC.

How can you see it any other way?

[americanstranger]

70. Way to bite the hand, Bev.

Jesus. The one guy who's willing to shed light on this subject, and Bev demands a retraction from him?

I thought she was a professional?

Damn. Randi better watch her back. One false move and Bev'll trash her, too.

Un. Freaking. Believable.

-as

[Patsy Stone]

Whoops

double sorry.

[Patsy Stone]

100. I was wondering about Randi...

Why doesn't she go on Countdown? That would rock. She could put it all out there and speak for Bev, and talk to Bev since she communicates with her. If nothing else, maybe we e-mail Randi and have her speak to Bev for us, if she won't come on DU and speak for herself. Why did they post that on the BBV site before doing anything else? Why can't they spell his name properly? :)

So many questions, so little time...

[Ducks In A Row]

124. because she knows it's all bullshit.

Bev knows it too.

[xultar]

2. What are you talking about, please be specific n/t

[bmoney07]

3. Good find

Maybe everyone will focus on what we need to do and that is

Get our Democracy back!!!

[noclonyofthechimp]

4. OH MY GOSH!

What the heck is going on????????

[AmyCrat]

5. wonderful (sarcasm)

Great. So now the "leader" of the BBV effort is going to battle with the only main stream media journalist who's covered it. This was my big fear.

They were quick to update the website about THIS.

Maybe instead of making demands on a website they should try to contact Olbermann and get on TV to discuss it with him first hand.

[noclonyofthechimp]

7. not good

[rodeodance]

14. your are tight!--the last thing we need is a public sqabble!!

[noclonyofthechimp]

6. I would repost that Bev demands retraction from Oberman

[Kelvin Mace]

62. Ain't gonna happen

[lizzieforkerry]

10. I don't think it is good that we are fighting with Keith

I wish they had been able to work things out a little better. Hopefully Keith will come around, maybe it was all a big misunderstanding?!

[bmoney07]

12. Keep the faith people

we all have come too far

[CantGetFooledAgain]

13. Oh for God's sake...

These two parties need to mutually agree to bury the hatchet and start working together to expose the truth of what happened!

These ego-driven battles are absurd. While we bicker, more people die in Iraq each day, and Iran invasion plans move forward apace. Let's keep our eyes on what is really important here!

[rodeodance]

19. well said!! Lets keep cool

[emcguffie]

21. Bev and Keith

Well, he did say in his blog that he had not dealt with her himself, that his staff had. So it could all be a misunderstanding.

And from what I have read today on this site, sounds like Bev is a little bit hotheaded. Having been that way myself, I would like to suggest that having a temper doesn't make you an evil person. Of course, some people develop more self-awareness about their own faults than others do. And because two people -- two BBV's -- have disagreements that sound kind of personal doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. There are all those shades of gray between the white and the black. It is always a mistake to try to say someone is right and someone else is wrong, in a dispute like that.

Seems to me, everyone should just let it go and get off of Bev's back, because that is playing into the hands of the bad guys -- if we divide ourselves, you know, we becomethat much easier to conquer.

Just my two cents. I know you guys don't know me.

E McGuffie

[AmyCrat]

30. hot headed

here's the choices...

demand retraction on your website and makes threats about how the votergate people now want to record and include the only MSM journalist as part of the votergate conspiracy documentary...

or take a deep breath, and try to get in touch with olbermann and his staff to schedule some on-air time, since he posted a public invitation for you to come on the show.

Which seems smarter, from a PR standpoint?

This isn't about whether it divides us or not -- this is about doing what is RIGHT for the whole cause. Shooting yourself in the foot just isn't smart.

[texpatriot2004]

111. Doing what's right for the whole cause and not being reactive

would be the best thing for all concerned. Shooting yourself in the foot helps noone.

[intheflow]

46. "shades of gray" - Yes!

That we can see the shades of Grey is what distinguishes us from the political left, imho.

And you're also right that the left is very good at squabbling and splitting ourselves. We can be our own worst enemies that way. Chasing our own tails and eating each other is how the political/religious right has risen to power these past 30 years.

Welcome to DU, emcguffie. :hi:

[Chicago Lulu]

22. Totally agree

My first post at DU! I've been lurking though.

This is example #gazillion of our infighting problems. I have a lot of respect for Bev, but Olbermann's blog entry was not hostile or rude. It simply stated that Bev was leaving herself open to a lot of suspicion. Her response on the other hand was deeply inflammatory, not to mention poorly composed- his name has 2 "ns" for God's sake. How hard can it be?

We don't know who is telling the truth re: video, going on the show, etc. However, if Bev is so willing to share the video from Volusia, why haven't we seen it? I gave money, shouldn't I get to see it? It's hard to buy the "keeping it secret for safety's sake" when she claims she's tried to peddle it to every network on the planet. I hope she comes up with something, but I'm not counting on it.

[Sperk]

59. Bev said that it was never asked for by NBC....I don't know if that's true

but if it is...her post was very logical.

[intheflow]

33. Hear, hear!

Good post. Welcome to DU, CantGetFooledAgain! :hi:

[CantGetFooledAgain]

42. Thanks intheflow!

I like your moniker. I wish I felt more "in the flow"!

[noclonyofthechimp]

54. Agree

[Kelvin Mace]

65. Ah, deja vu, yet again.

This is a pattern with Bev. It happens over and over. The only common factor to these situations is Bev.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[tbuddha]

15. Maddy owes Bev an apology

[havocmom]

45. says you

over and over and over again :eyes:

[Ducks In A Row]

126. says me too, over and over and over and over and over...

and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over again


so when will Maddy apologize? And ZW and the rest ?

Bev was doing the work years before any of them showed up.

When were they down in florida holding the LaPore's feet to the fire?

What are they doing except bashing someone who refuses to let the criminals get away with this crap?


Nowhere. They should take their bullshit to freeperland.

[Jersey Devil]

16. So Bev has decided to turn it into a personal war with Olbermann

They want to tape Olbermann but not show him the tapes. This sure adds a lot of credibility to her claims (sarcasm on).

[AmyCrat]

18. I was a bit perplexed by that myself n/t

[momzno1]

20. Is it possible

that Keith was given the wrong info by the producers of his show, that Bev cancelled, while actually the producers cancelled?

[SueZhope]

25. HMMMM I wonder if theres anything in writing

I wonder if any of the invitations have been in an email .
This he said she said is not very helpful

[americanstranger]

101. Speaking from experience...

... most bookings for shows of this nature are done via phone. Everything is subject to change, guests are not 'locked in.'

TBTM went through the same thing with O'Reilly and Scarborough. Their ball, their rules, you suck it up if you get bumped and take the rain check if it's offered.

You don't go public with a challenge to your host's credibility. Bad form, IMO.

-as

[Jersey Devil]

27. Sure, but why not explain that on the show instead of pissing at him?

I'd say this is a pretty stupid tactic to be challenging someone with his own TV show to a pissing match.

[emcguffie]

26. showing the tapes?

What I just read gave me the impression that she would show the tapes, but that she had not been asked to. SHe showed them to CNN, why wouldn't she show them to Keith?

Sounds like she's pissed off about being misrepresented. A hotheaded he-said, she-said. Someone soothing should try to chill her out.

Sounds like a huge misunderstanding to me.

Ellen

[KansDem]

97. This probably means very little, but...

...after reading these threads, could it be that there was some confusion over the word "tapes?" I have read "polling tapes" and "video tapes." Could these terms have been confused in the (obvious) quick-paced atmosphere that has surrounded this scandal? Could the Olbermann people and the BBV people have not been clear with each other? I would think it would only take one mistaken use of the term "tape(s)" in a single communication to start a snowball effect that lead to this dilemma...

Just wondering...:shrug:

[texpatriot2004]

32. Starting a battle with KO is a really stupid thing to do. n/t

[Ducks In A Row]

125. Bev knows it's bullshit, and that she doesn't need that crap

She's been fine interviewing with independent media (AAR, Pacifica). She knows they will not censor her. I'm sure you've noticed when people post to announce what show she's about to be on. It's been going on for weeks.

Keith is too lasy to get off his ass and call her. Leaving it to his staff is a bullshit move.

[pipes]

17. WTF?

This is exactly what all the repubs, rove and everyone else want. They want the actual facts to be clouded by some other shit that has nothing to do with anything!

This is not good! BBV needs to be in the position that they are willing to kiss some ass in order to get some of this shit done...

I am sorry but BBV just can't go around pissing off the people who make news and who are without a doubt on our side. Sometimes a lil ass kissing or nice play can go a long way! This and the grandstanding at the LaWhore incident is BAD BAD BAD for BBV and the truth seekers.

Olberman has been the champion of US people for the last month or so, why oh why should we be turning on him now? It is rediculous, BBV if you have a problem with him or if the two stories do not match...call them and figure it out! Don't start a flame war between your selves, remember that he is the media and you are the Tin Foil person, not saying that your work is not good, it most definately is but please do not start this shit.

NOTHING GOOD WILL COME OF A WAR OF WORDS WITH THE ONLY GUY WHO HAS BEEN TREATING THIS AS ACTUAL NEWS!

[rodeodance]

24. lets all email and bev--NOW--your memo hit it on the head --thanks

[emcguffie]

35. one more thing

In my job, I have occasion to try to get people on these news shows, and they'll say yes, and we'll be working on setting up and getting the person and the time and all that -- and, boom, just like that, something comes up that's bigger news, and you get bumped at the last minute. It happens ALL THE TIME.

But maybe Keith isn't so aware of that. He isn't on that end. He's on the in-end.

[rodeodance]

44. KO could end like up like Dan Rather if he is not carefull

At this point--KO has given us his honest take on this. He does not want to end up like Dan R.---with the Right ready to pounce on him!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/

....."I have not dealt with Ms. Harris directly, but my staff has, and though we have asked her on a regular basis to let us show these tapes on national television, she has declined.


We are running in risky waters as it is, offering a platform for tapes we can’t independently verify. But I have heretofore been convinced that she had credentials sufficient to make an interview segment with her both useful and reasonable.

My ample gut has lately sent me a different message, and her showdown with Palm Beach County Elections Supervisor Theresa LePore on Monday seemed to buttress my instinct. She burst into LePore’s retirement ceremony, her cameraman rolling tape as she did so, and she raced to the podium to announce to the shocked room full of supervisors that she was “serving” LePore with papers as part of her lawsuits over what she claims are LePore’s evasions in providing records of the 2004 vote....

[pipes]

47. Lets EM Keith and let him know...

That we think this is utter nonsense.

Pride is a Muddeerfucker,Bev, and you should realize that this is not how things get done.

All of your hard work, all of it...from the fact that this election was hijacked to the fact that Black Box Voting is so messed up to the fact that 2006 and 2008 will also be whack or is HACK.

We need not get into petty pissing matches about who is doing what in regards to covering stories when we know that there is one person only one person who has even brought this into the quasi MSM.

A call to all DUers who believe in Keith...he obviously reads our emails and it would be nice to let him know that despite the childish response from BBV we are fully behind him and appreciate the fact that he has taken this on.

Pucker up Bev and kiss some of the Olberman ass or BBV will go down in a cloud of Foil and the rest of the movement will follow suit. We will then lose out on any opportunity to fix this election , the next election or our beloved democracy as we know it!

[texpatriot2004]

29. You are absolutely correct. n/t

[Darknyte7]

36. This is SOOOOO Counter-productive....

Why is it so difficult to put these parties together? This looks to be deteriorating into a pissing match. They simply can't be that far apart with regard to their interests in the greater cause.

[Village Idiot]

66. I am a AFDB person -

Why trust Olberman? Just because he is whoring for the left instead of the right for once? Could this be an attempt on the part of NBC to further obfuscate the issue? Certainly seems more plausible than the fact that Bev does not want to do CountDown, or that she is saving the Volusia County tapes for her own documentary!

I would be more inclined to trust Bev - she HAS been doing this FOR ALL OF US for over two years! Olberman is a Johnny-come-lately that just MAY have an alternate agenda...

In case many of you have forgotten - YOU CANNOT TRUST THE MEDIA!

[smartvoter]

71. I agree. Have been slammed for the same position, in fact.

[ccarter84]

28. I think Bev's got a pride thing goin

and I really think we should trust keith more than we are...with that said, I haven't had much interaction with either, but so far keith seems to have been pretty much on our side...whereas Bev seems to create confrontation...or it follows her -to this forum; -to the 'retirment' party (which can be justified if she didnt' know about the purpose of it), etc.
just seems like she's a bit possessive of the whole voter fraud issue, we put faith in her for the past month...now we want her to show us a bit of proof of all her work.

and if she doesn't?
I vote we walk and find a new leader

-Chris Carter

[emcguffie]

39. so what?

So what if she's got a pride thing going? She's got the tapes. She's got the suit filed. Maybe she needs a handler, lots of people need handlers.

It would be really counter-productive to ditch her and try to start over. It's nuts. Like changing coaches at the end of the game.

[rodeodance]

48. she needs to have a heart to heart talk with KO about these tapes--

we do not want nor need a OlbermannGate!!

[ccarter84]

118. and like changinge pres in middle of war right?

we have no proof yet...all I want is a little smidgeon of proof...thats it...something that I could perphaps have my soul feed off of for a bit.

[texpatriot2004]

41. I'm thinking it's a control issue, your "possessive" comment is

right on the money. You know, when people start a project, or a movement and it gets bigger than them they either have to let it go and accept outside help or they cling to it and, potentially, ruin the whole thing. It's like they smother it to death because they can't trust and let go. Mind you, there are ways to let go and still manage the project/movement. It seems to me to be a control issue with Bev and crew.

[smartvoter]

75. It looked that way to me before this happened.

When they were spending weeks to get a challenge in just one county in one state but were saying they wouldn't let the volunteers loose because they'd get their "butts kicked."

[texpatriot2004]

105. Yeah, I agree, I have had that feeling all along. It is possible to

train people on the fly. Or if not, use the hands in some other way. This has bothered me since the week after I heard about BBV.ORG. I just don't believe that three people against this issue is a smart way to do it. I also don't believe that they had to do it the way that they have chosen.

[keepthemhonest]

50. This does'nt make sense to start something with Keith like

this. We need to stay focused on the real problems. Why would she be confrontational with Keith, maybe she's tired from all the running around.

Let's stay focused

[Ducks In A Row]

127. her pride is earned

and there's nothing worth with being proud for exposing fraud.

Look at California. Or do you think that Bev doesn't have the right to feel proud for her work there, or the work she's still doing in california.

personally, I'd be proud I didn't take the bribe they offered in order to continue the fight against diebold.

[noamnety]

37. I'm guessing they are both telling the truth

With some middle men in between, I'm guessing they have a big game of telephone going on. From Keith's blog: "But I’m afraid at this stage, intentionally or by the simplest of communication failures, she isn’t helping illuminate this issue."

I hope one or the other of them will pick up the phone and sort this out. They are both good people, both trying to get at the truth. Somewhere the communication broke down, no reason that can't be fixed.

[Solitaire]

38. You know, I think

this could be a simple mis-communication by KO's staff and Bev's staff.

You know how the game "telephone" goes and you'd be surprised how incompetent some people are. I've had this happen many times in business, when an assistant or someone down the line has confused a message and it became the opposite of what the message meant.

Just an idea to throw out to everyone.

:)

[momzno1]

43. we know that Bev is a Strong Willed Woman

and this is why she can do such great work, but we are all human and have our failings. One possibly related piece of information is that my brother who is a PHD candidate at Bowling Green University in Ohio has a radio show. He told me that the first week after the election he contacted BBV and asked for someone to be on his radio show, then the person blew him off at the time of the scheduled interview. I am not 100 percent positive he was planning on talking to Bev, but he was upset that they blew him off. Maybe Bev is so busy that she can't keep up with all the other important media commitments...
Dunno
But Bev and Keith should not be going at it, I agree.

[KaryninMiami]

67. Agreed. Let's do what we can to connect them to each other.

Let's all write to both of them and ask that they connect directly to each other. After all, we are all working to find out the truth and to uncover what really happened on November 2nd. If we can all remember that- and remind each other that we are coming from that place and not from anywhere else, we'll have a shot here at bridging what appears to be a misunderstanding.

I wrote to them both last night by the way, asking them to do just this- connect directly- no staff, no in-betweens - just a direct, private conversation so that both can understand each other better and figure out together, which way to proceed that will benefit all.

[notadmblnd]

40. Thanks for posting this, I found it hard to believe

What Maddy had to say. I've followed Bev and Andy and the rest of the group for approximately the last two years and each time she has been attacked by people like Maddy, it is they that have been discredited not Bev.

If it wasn't for Bev, it's very likely we'd all still be in the dark regarding voter fraud. By Maddie's own admission she/he has never involved herself/himself in the voter fraud issue and I found it highly suspect that a person with no vested interest would launch such a vicious attack.

I don't care if Bev has a big ego and doesn't always play nice with other people. NOW is not the time to play nice. Bev has worked tirelessly for a long time on getting this issue exposed and if Bev somehow benefits financially through all of this, I for one think she earned it.

P.S.

I thought Maddie's avatar was quite appropriate. It conveyed his/her personality quite accurately... snakey snakey

[AmyCrat]

52. as long as you understand

that by not playing "nice" (or at least reasonably diplomatic) in THIS game it's going to result in the guy who has his own TV show, and who has already moderated tin-foil-hatted you, being fueled with more ammunition to do the same -- it's not working to resolve it.

[bunny planet]

51. Don't know who's telling the truth, but this cause can certainly not

afford either one of these people, Bev or KO. They are both instrumental in helping us address this deeply troubling election fraud story. I suggest some kind of mediation, so this doens't spiral out of control. This is exactly the kind of 'dividing' that the Republicans love to do themselves, let's not be like them. It will kill our momentum and discredit us. PLEASE, somebody make them stop feuding and please moderators stop allowing the trashing (of either Bev or Olberman) to take place on this board. It is sooooooo counterproductive!

[Village Idiot]

55. As much as I appreciate K.O.

being the only mediawhore covering voting irregularities SO FAR, he IS still a mediawhore.

He has made some (strange)allegations in his blog that demand answering. I certainly have NO TRUST WHATSOEVER in the NBC family of ReThuglican Apologists, so I must ask myself - why would K.O. attempt to discredit her after raising the voter fraud issue these past three weeks? It might explain a lot by examining NBC's motives for such...

[rman]

68. so, Olbermann canceled Bev, not "Bev doesn't want to appear"

Unless Bev is lying, but noone seems to be claiming that (let alone that anyone has proven that).
Rather people blame Bev for "taking it personal", "having a pride thing going", "not wanting to burry the hatchet" - while these people are ignoring the blatend facts as to why Bev would not trust Olbermann anymore.

"Contrary to Olberman's assertions, neither he nor his staff have EVER asked Harris to show anyone the Volusia County tapes. They have not asked Harris to come on the show since November 8. Harris did not come to Florida until November 12.

Olberman's producers had asked Harris to appear on the Countdown show twice, on Nov. 5 and Nov. 8. Each time, after Harris cleared her schedule to appear and shortly before the show, Olberman's producers canceled the appearance without explanation."

[noclonyofthechimp]

72. I don't believe anyone is LYING. Think "miscommunication" They didn't

ever interact with each other, it was "his people talkin to her people" kind of thing. Everyone knows that when too many individuals relay information, some of it can get mis communicated. Let's have faith that this will work out. I am going to send an email to Keith relaying the same.

[rman]

76. there's a very clear distinction between "does not want to appear" and ..

there's a very clear distinction between "does not want to appear" and "was cancelled twice"

how can this be down to miscommunication? who "mis-spoke" this time?

[noclonyofthechimp]

83. I am referring to when she agreed to come on the show. She says it

was before she came to FL and uncovered the dumpster ed polling tapes. They had to cancel her which ticked her off because she cleared her schedule. It was unprofessional to do so with such short notice, but who knows what happened. He is saying he tried to reschedule and she won't appear now with the polling tapes. I just think their is some relaying of "he said - she said" between their staff going a little of kilter. I just want to see it play out and want to give some confidence to two professionals.

[Ducks In A Row]

128. there was an explaination, she insist on using the word fraud

I heard her interview with Randi Rhodes about it,

Bev has no problems interviewing with people who will not censor her.

[loritooker]

74. I asked Bev to consider posting here

I don't know her at all, but e mailed her to consider posting something at DU. It seems it would be best if she did.

[rman]

78. she could post the same thing here that she posted on bbv.org...

what would be the point?

i'd think she has better things to do.

[texpatriot2004]

77. Even if Bev posts here, would you believe her? Will KO

post here too? I mean, we would have to get both sides at this point. Bev, in the past month, has, in my opinion, not done her part to communicate with those supporting her. I don't know, I think her credibility is questionable. In the last month, I have heard much more from KO than I have from BBV. I have checked the BBV website everyday. It's usually a waste of time.

[rman]

90. You think her credibility is questionable but you don't know why?

The only 'evidence' you present is that she doesn't communicate much with those who support her?
I'd guess she's rather busy, what do you want her to do, hold your hand?

[texpatriot2004]

98. I am so sick of hearing the "she's so busy" excuse

No I don't want her to hold my hand. I do want her to have credibility and to be able to depend on her website (if nothing else) as a tool for this cause. That is not unreasonable. It's not about her holding my hand, it's about being able to depend on her, or someone she delegates to, or, at the very least, her website.

[smartvoter]

117. You make a great deal of sense.

I think BBV is blowing the PR side of this thing and they don't see it. The trouble with much of the discussion and disagreement out here, period, is the "outside" world doesn't necessarily see things the way we do. Unless we come to terms with this, and address it, we're going to make very little progress.

[Ducks In A Row]

129. uh, she IS busy you know. She's had no problem interviewing ...

on independent media (AAR. Pacifica) all this time. But then they didn't try to censor her like Countdown.

if she's not interviewing at the moment with anyone, including IM, it's because she is busy.

[AmyCrat]

130. part of the problem

enlist more volunteers... there appears to be lots who are willing to help but haven't heard a thing back from her

[progressiveboston]

80. The canibalization starts

I have to say that I haven't been all that thrilled with BBV even though I've supported them and will continue to do so as long as I feel that they are making progress. That said, I would say that this stunt that Bev and crew played really wasn't necessary and may have hurt our causes as it gives ammunition to those who don't support investigations.

It's time for Bev to show some of her cards and prove that the 100 bucks I've donated to BBV were not a waste.

Kudo's to Keith for raising the subject that's been festering for a while now. If he's wrong, the ball is in Bev's court to prove it.

[rman]

82. what about KO's stunt?

claiming Bev "doesn't want to appear" on his show while in fact he canceled her appeareance twice?

[progressiveboston]

89. He said she said

Obviously if Keith is in the wrong, Bev needs to prove that. I think Keith threw down the gauntlet and like I said the ball is in her court now. Writing a terse reactive response on her website isn't going to fix the issues that need to be addressed with her lack of communication with all of us.

[rman]

91. If Bev is in the wrong, KO doesn't need to prove it?

communicating with us is not what her BBV efforts are about.
She could communicate with all of us all day long and not get anything done to resolve the election fraud.

[Patsy Stone]

108. If Keith is wrong, and he is proven wrong,

he will have the cojones to say so. He's done it before. This is really, really stupid, childish BS. The man has a reputation, and so does Bev. We do too by the way.

In the meantime, let's focus on REALITY.

1) Alliance for Democracy has filed a lawsuit. That is tangible, real and that wil certainly get major coverage, maybe tonight, maybe on KO, maybe on CNN. The ball is rolling. Cliff was already on C-SPAN this morning, and I'm sure, if he wants to go, KO would also have him on.

2) Kerry joined this BS only YESTERDAY. We're a fast moving society these days, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Nor, if there really is a "there" there, will this be.

3) Whatever you do, let's all respect each other. No cursing, no stupid behavior, please. He called us out on sinking to the level of the people who don't want this looked into. My God! What have we done?

[intelle]

84. My letter to Keith concerning this

Dear Keith,

While I have been an avid viewer of your show since 11/8, I have not emailed you to thank you for the coverage you are giving to the 11/2 voting irregularities. I appreciate the courage you are displaying in the face of what seems to be a media blackout on this issue. Thank you very much, Keith, for taking the concerns of so many of us seriously, and for your willingness to have an open mind.

I read your blog of today, and I wanted to let you know that I agree with your assessment of Bev Harris's recent behavior.. Her display at LePore's retirement party was decidedly less-than-professional, and I doubt it leant credibility to the wonderful work she is doing. I also think she should make some of the Volusia tapes available as this WOULD lend credibility to her findings.

I understand she is calling for a retraction from you. While I don't think you said anything wrong, I am disturbed that this type of friction is occurring between two people who are obviously interested in the truth about our election process.

I hope that Bev and you can somehow mend these differences. I would really hate to lose either one of you as there are so few people out there willing to take risks in order to ensure that we live in a true democracy in which all our votes count.

Thank you again, Keith, for all that you are doing for us.

[noclonyofthechimp]

85. Great.

[pipes]

86. Well Done!

Thank you mine was also sent over!

[SharonRB]

Excellent letter n/t

[Carolab]

87. This is really out of hand

Bev Harris has braved a very powerful machine and survived. I think one should give her the benefit of the doubt and allow her to handle this in her own way. None of us has done what she has done and none of us has the right to pass judgement on what she does or does not do with proprietary information. Keith Olbermann has been our lone voice in the mainstream media on this whole story and we should be grateful to him for that. It was brave of him to be the only voice on this issue as well and he has been very responsive to DU. I am also sure that whatever decisions and comments being made are not his and his alone. I wish everyone would just drop it altogether, stop "taking sides" and let the parties involved work it out between themselves. By fighting over it like this you are accomplishing nothing but creating antagonism and fracturing the effort.

[WiseFawn]

88. I think neither is lying.

She did not have those tapes yet when she was asked to be on the show. And he said himself, that she was cancelled to get more mainstream people on.
She said on her site that two NBC channels showed the tapes last night. Can we find out about those? If they were shown, I would think he would be able to just get them from the channels? If they were shown, couldn't we see them if the channels have a web site?

[AmyCrat]

96. I agree somewhat

I am totally open to the possibility there's been some miscommunication.

But that doesn't excuse the fact that she immediately posted on the BBV website a demand for a retraction and insinuation that "votergate" is now going to include Olbermann as part of the conspiracy. That's just bad decision making, fueled by anger -- a knee jerk response without thinking (IMO).

[Patsy Stone]

92. BBV could have at least spelled his name correctly.

Here we go again. I'm checking out of this discussion.

[jbond56]

94. smells like a mutual publicity stunt to me. nt

[carolinalady]

99. I've been reading this Bev argument all day until I have a

headache but I am finally going to add my 2 cents fwiw. In my opinion the truth lies somewhere between keith's story and her story that's the way it always is. Having said that, a true leader does not resort to in your face grandstanding, rather rises above it. If she would like to refute KO then the proper way would have been to post that there has clearly been a miscommunication between the two parties, that she would love to discuss her activites in FL; that she or her associates will be contacting the KO producers today to make arrangements for that to happen and that she appreciates the effort KO has made to bring the story to the MSM when others have failed to do so. If she is able to make some headway in this e-voting problem great for her, but I as a more moderate type of individual, do not have a lot of respect for her character at this point.

[mdb]

106. Ko said her interest lay in the document being produced and not his show..

or the media. Yet Bev is saying.

"Also contrary to Olberman's claims, Harris is not making a documentary, but the makers of the Votergate documentary, an independent team who captured the Volusia County trash incident on film, are eager to interview Keith Olberman on camera to ask him why he produced this report".

And as I recall when she was on here telling us all about her discovery in FL she was telling us Votergate may need donations more so than she does.

[texpatriot2004]

109. So what do you think? What's the point of that? What does

it say to you?

[texpatriot2004]

112. I am no freeper and there is nothing wrong with health discussion

[zann725]

113. I believe her. Sounds like a communication gap between KO producers and..

BBV over scheduling conflicts. This kind of thing happens all the time with people who are busy. Plus it appears that Keith was 'hearing' second-hand Bev's refusal to be on the show from his producers. She's working tirelessly on this cause. For her to clear her schedule twice, and then having her appearance cancelled by his producers could cause a real communication gap between them.

We should NOT alienate either Bev OR Keith.

Bev IS willing to be on the show...AND show him the tape from Valousa County. What can we do to get them together?! We're too close to the finish line to waste our energies now.

Clearly Keith wants the story first, and Bev wants her story out there (not edited out like on Aaron Brown).

[texpatriot2004]

114. BBV needs the coverage. n/t

[chimpy the poopthrower]

115. Regardless of whose version of events you find more believable...

...Bev Harris is handling this badly.

She claims she was asked to appear Nov 5th and 8th but was canceled both times. KO claims she was asked to appear on Nov 8th. He claims the show "didn’t cancel on her" but simply wanted to reschedule her for another time.

KO claims the show has asked her to appear with her videotapes of "the voting tapes Bev Harris found discarded in the trash in Florida" and that BH has declined. BH denies the show has asked her to appear since Nov 8th.

So what's the problem?

If KO wants her to appear on the show with the videotapes, and BH wants to appear on the show with the videotapes, why doesn't she simply allow the possibility KO proposed (that simple communication failures were the culprit), and publicly accept his public invitation to appear on the show and bring the videotapes?

If BH does not wish to appear on the show and show the videotapes for some strategic reason -- I won't try to guess what that may be -- then there's still no problem, right? Whether or not KO's show ever really invited her, she would have declined anyway.

However, if BH does not wish to appear simply because she is angry with KO for the alleged earlier cancellations, I think she is being petty. If it's strategically in the best interest to show those tapes, why would she decline an offer from the only media offering to air them? I mean, if she had a better offer from another show, that would be one thing. If she's sitting on the tapes just because of her bruised ego, that's pretty low.

[lthuedk]

116. And the winner is...............Karl Rove!

[Ducks In A Row]

119. If it's one of the other, Bev is telling the truth, but it isn't

keith is too chickenshit to call Bev himself, so he's just getting second hand accounts from the "staff"

well keith needs to get off his ass and talk to Bev personally.


But ya know, Bev doesn't need him. She's been interviewing with the independent media all this time. She answers questions and tells her story without filters or censorship.

Let Keith get his shit together and BEG, and maybe then he'll get a crumb.

Again, Bev doesn't need him, he needs her.

[AmyCrat]

121. you got it backwards

"Again, Bev doesn't need him, he needs her."

Not true at all. It's the other way around.

[Ducks In A Row]

131. No, I have it correct

She doesn't need Countdown. Keith desperately needs her. Why else is he bashing her? Trying to embarrass her.

It's a tactic that MSM uses to try to force people to "Talk" to them

"if you don't talk to us, we will tell the story this way. Why don't you came on the story and straighten us out"

And we all know that's bullshit. It's worked for years because people still believed the media was fair (and balanced).

It's because she will not be handled, she will not be censored, she will not be used by the MSM

Haven't you heard her on independent media shows? She does well, she answers questions, she tells whats happening. But they do not censor her.


Again, Bev doesn't and never will need Countdown. Keith just better realize it.

[Skinner]

132. Continue discussion here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=104119&mesg_id=104119