I JUST TALKED TO BEV

[tbuddha]

She sounded totally reasonable to me and very friendly.

As it turns out it was a producer at MSNBC who didn't convey the right message to Keith. She assured me that she does have the tapes and that they are holding off at showing all their cards.

I have no doubts with her whatsoever and would love to hear any questions you may have.

[tbuddha]

1. And she told me she appreciated my damage control!

:bounce:

[bmoney07]

3. great work

lets get this kicked so people will calm down and lets email K.O. so that he can have her on the show ASAP,

'[e-mail]'

[americanstranger]

5. 'Damage control?'

Are those your words, or hers?

If they're hers, why would she phrase it like that? Just wondering.

-as

[tbuddha]

12. She said that when I explained the posts going on this morning

[AmyCrat]

14. questions then...

is she willing to go on KO with or without the tapes?

Why is she demanding a retraction rather than stating it was miscommunication with a producer (Something like: "We are investigating the possibility that there has been a misunderstanding between the Countdown with KO Show and BlackBoxVoting.org regarding his recent editorial. We do wish to appear on the show, and will work with KO and his staff to resolve any conflicts and keep you posted.").

Why is she using the votergate documenary filmmakers as a threat to interview Keith on all this?

What the strategic reason? Did she share?

[tbuddha]

29. She didn't find out about the producer till after the fact

Expect an update on the site soon...they are up to their ears in crocodiles right now though, and they don't like handing off the duties of maintaining the site to others.

[AmyCrat]

93. that's part of the problem.

The obviously need HELP if they are trying to do it all.

And updating 3 paragraphs on a website doesn't take very long, honestly. No need to be wordy, be short and sweet, and the HTML itself takes no more than 5 minutes.

[IAMREALITY]

2. Next Time You Talk To Her

"She assured me that she does have the tapes and that they are holding off at showing all their cards."

Please ask her why. Logical Details of Why would help quench a lot of this...

[crispini]

8. Yep. If not now, when. And why not now. n/t

[tbuddha]

10. She told me pretty much what I already know

It's not prudent or necessary to post them on the site right now. They are don't have ALL the tapes and for one don't want others to know which precincts we are targeting. The more they are in the dark the better.

Also consider this. Lately, we have seen a lot of Bev bashing on here where there wasn't before. A lot of pressure to see the tapes. What does that tell you?

[IAMREALITY]

19. Tells me That

A lot of people are getting pissed off that someone has videotaped evidence of Fraud but won't let anyone see it...

[pointsoflight]

34. Just for clarification, it's the polling tapes at issue, not videotapes.

Bev has the polling tapes.

The videotapes were created and are owned by votergate.tv. They're not Bev's to turn over.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

42. Are you sure about that?

Sounded like KO was talking about the videotapes. If BH doesn't own those tapes, why make a point of saying KO's show never asked her for them? Why not simply say "I can't give the show the tapes because they don't belong to me." ?

[pointsoflight]

55. Yes, I'm sure. Her latest update even says this.

"Also contrary to Olbermann's claims, Harris is not making a documentary, but the makers of the Votergate documentary, an independent team who captured the Volusia County trash incident on film, are eager to interview Keith Olbermann on camera to ask him why he produced this report."

Vogergate.tv is an independent non-profit organization. They are the one's doing the videotaping.

Now they are working closely with Bev and may well be happy to let Bev use them. But Bev would have to ask votergate.tv for them. Since they are in the documentary business, they may not want to. I don't know. Regardless, they are not Bev's to give.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

85. Ok, I get it now.

So KO and BH are both talking about the same thing -- the voting tapes BH allegedly found discarded in Volusia County. So there is no misunderstanding between them, at least, over which "tapes" they are talking about.

[pointsoflight]

89. Keith talks about wanting to see both.

He apparently was unaware that the videotapes belong to votergate.tv

[pgh_dem]

28. Keeping their opponents in the dark

...is a pretty good idea, but maybe BBV could just show whatever they were willing to show CNN, and leave it at that for now?
PS everyone please go to Columbus on Dec 4 (i am, and have rounded up some co-workers to go too)...let's get some Ukraine-sized crowds out there!

[pointsoflight]

47. Yes, that should be fine.

Just show the existence of signed polling tapes without revealing which one's they have.

Some are arguing that it can't hurt to just hand over the tapes and reveal what they show. But here's the thing. If tampering occurred, it most likely happened by manually changing the vote totals on the tabulator, and NOT by tampering with the ballots themselves. But if people doing the tampering knew exactly which polling tapes Bev had with the discrepencies, they could now, after the fact, go back and tamper with the ballots so as to match the official count they sent in. Can't really do that if you don't know which polling tapes Bev has, because there's a huge number of precincts. Over a hundred, I think.

[pgh_dem]

99. agree

Although i'd go so far as to say showing 1 or 2 out of a hundred wouldn't compromise that secrecy either. I think someone else already suggested this: just one image of side by side poll tapes (the one from the garbage with the signatures, and the nov 15 'copy') showing a single precinct's numbers being off would be more than enough for the media/perception side of the fraud debate, and save the rest for the legal side.
That being said, I've got no idea how the law works in this area, and showing one discrepancy could open up whole other avenues of BS challenges to the validity of the evidence (jury pool poisoning, rules of disclosure like they'd have to have shown all their stuff to the defendants before releasing any evidence to media, etc).
KEEP HOPE ALIVE IN COLUMBUS 12/4

[tbuddha]

50. Ask yourself why CNN hasn't showed them?

Then ask yourself why a producer at MSNBC is telling Keith she refuses to come on the show when she hasn't actually spoke to Bev.

[SueZhope]

31. Great work!!!

If she is holding the tapes ....(and that seems logical not to want to put out her cards).

Why then is this on her site?
"Harris showed the Volusia County tapes to CNN cameramen"

Im still a little confused.
Thanks again for helping sort all this out

[pointsoflight]

64. There's a difference...

...between just showing that the signed polling tapes exist (which is what she did with the CNN camermen) and actually handing over the tapes, analyzing them, and giving the specifics (like which precinct is involved, etc.). I don't see how the first one could damage her lawsuit. The second one could damage the case by giving the alleged perpetrators the information they need to cover their tracks.

[SueZhope]

78. Thats a great point however , WHY?

would she be flashing the tapes at the CNN
cameramen? ..why would that even be important
enough to talk about if she was just flashing tapes with
info not to be able to be seen?

I'm still confused on that

[pointsoflight]

83. Because they're official, signed polling tapes from election night.

That alone is suspicious and suggests a cover up. Official polling tapes should not be in the garbage. In fact, it's illegal to destroy public documents like these. That's true regardless of what's actually on the tapes, and is alone newsworthy.

[saracat]

45. Could be that the Producers won't find it "prudent or necessary " to put

her on the show then.Without those tapes Bev is NOT a story. Sorry about that folks. She may be important to the DU world, but I had never heard of her outside of DU. Don't flame me. I know that there was some NPR coverage, but people remember that like book authors >not. And NPR is preaching to the choir.The tapea ARE the story. Without them she is an empty baloon.( I don't mean she is, only story and guest wise) Bev Harris is not yet a household name.

[Buddyblazon]

4. Gee....

did I call that one or what.

I work in concert production. And I see the carnage of "telephone" everyday.

"Well he TOLD me to do this."

"No I didn't...I told so and so to have you do THIS...not THIS!"

[tbuddha]

18. EXACTLY

and you have to question the motives of the producers at MSNBC too

[noclonyofthechimp]

6. Thanks tbuddha! it's what we though "miscommunication" Producer

didn't convey the appropriate message. We are all so frustrated with what the Bush cartel has done..we doubt and distrust so much all the time. I hate that feeling.

[noclonyofthechimp]

9. my own miscommunication "thought" sorry

[Jersey Devil]

7. Are you the blackboxvoting.org Official Spokesperson?

Do you have credentials?

Why are they "holding off" with the opportunity to have the tapes shown worldwide, thereby blowing the lid off the vote fraud issue?

I await your response with breathless anticipation.

[Dora]

20. Oh, now, come on...

You gotta know when to hold 'em
know when to fold 'em
know when to walk away
and know when to run

You never count your money
when you're sitting at the table
there'll be time enough for counting
when the deal is done

[Patsy Stone]

96. Thanks, Kenny!

I love that song. :)

[tbuddha]

25. I'll explain again...it's posted elsewhere on here

She doesn't have tapes to every single precinct. She doesn't want to give away what ones we do have, and that is only one reason. Because you don't understand all the reasons to show our cards, doesn't give you the right to question her integrity. It's like poker. Don't worry, she does have them though.

For now, it wouldn't be wise or prudent when they are the subject of litigation and an investigation.

[ClassWarrior]

27. I have to ask, buddha... Why is she passing this thru you...

...who's fairly new here, when she or Andy could just log onto their own accounts and tell us themselves?

NGU.

[tbuddha]

33. I'm new here...not new on BBV

and BBV has been working on this a LOT longer than DU.

[ClassWarrior]

38. Actually - and other longtime DUers can correct me if I'm wrong...

...I thought that BBV was born here on DU. Which would mean that DU has been working on BBV a lot longer than BBV has.

NGU.

[Jersey Devil]

39. Careful! Someone may demand a retraction of your post!

and you don't have a TV show to fight back with.

[tbuddha]

56. no...BBV was not born on DU...sorry

[ClassWarrior]

58. I asked for the opinion of LONGTIME DUers, thanks.

See the one from American Stranger, who's been here longer than me, below.

NGU.

[KCS72000]

110. Bev was posting here before

Bev was posting here before she had her own web site. I remember her first post from 2 years ago.

[americanstranger]

46. Hold up.

'A lot longer?'

Beg to differ. The lion's share of BBV's work was produced right here, and a lot of people - on both sides of support for Bev - will verify that.

This is BBV's fundamental problem, as I see it. No matter who helps, and no matter how much they help, it seems as though Bev and Andy want to claim sole ownership of the issue - witness Bev's threat to sue DU a couple of weeks ago.

It's gotta be theirs and all theirs at the end of the day. That's a goddam big problem, if you ask me.

-as

[tbuddha]

59. No one is saying that DU hasn't helped

I'm just saying that BBV and Bev Harris in particular have started the investigation and continue to do so.

How many of you criticizing me right now are in Florida starting lawsuits?

[americanstranger]

'Started the investigation??'

Are you familiar with the name 'Faun Otter?'

If you profess to be familiar with the origins of BBV, you should be. If not, I'll be glad to clue you in.

Short version: he's probably the first person to notice irregularities back in 2000. Sadly, his work (which actually first appeared on BartCop Forum!) has been wiped from the History of BBV. As has the work of Roxanne Jekot and countless others.

They didn't fit Bev's narrative, apparently.

-as

[bunny planet]

74. She sounds like she needs therapy. Unfortunately there's no time at the

moment for that so we have to accept the skills she has and try and work with her personality flaws, we all have them. Let's move on, do our separate thing, and let her do her work. It might be a good idea for her to have someone as an official spokesperson, someone perhaps less incendiary or prone to grandstanding. This would go a long way in dispelling the rumour that she is self-serving. We need solidarity now more than anything.

BTW,I am relatively new here, did Bev get started on DU? I was under the impression that her book was written independent of DU and was out there for awhile, when was it published. What is her background etc., don't know many of the details. Just curious.

[Razorback_Democrat]

69. Here's a post from General Discussion from her where she did

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2777690&mesg_id=2777782&page=

believe that the the MSNBC staff would have asked for the tapes more than once. Why wouldn't they? It is the normal course of events to ask for those kinds of things.

They did not ask me nor any member of my staff. I just spoke with one of Olbermann's producers, Katy Carp, who said "we've tried to get in touch with you."

Any of you who tried to get in touch with me shortly after the election know that the voicemail was full. We did not receive any voicemails and never spoke with MSNBC.

Maybe Harris' helpers didn't tell her they'd asked.

Our "helpers" are me, Andy Stephenson, and Kathleen Wynne. None of us were called by MSNBC about Volusia.

In any case, all she has to do is produce copies of the tapes.

OK. Please go ask Greg Palast to produce all his investigative material during the middle of his investigations. See what HE says.

Also, please ask litigators to produce the evidence they are presenting at trial so you can put it on the Internet. They will tell you to go jump in the lake.

That would have been more effective than a statement saying MSNBC had not asked for the tapes.

The truth is, MSNBC never asked for the tapes.


I see nothing wrong with what Olbermann said, if what he said is true. And I believe it is.

What he said is not true. Provably so.

Thanks for playing, and we are delighted to know we are getting close to something sensitive. (harassment calls and bogus news stuff suddenly ramped up during the last 24 hours).

Bev Harris
Executive Director
Black Box Voting Inc.
http://www.blackboxvoting.org

[Jersey Devil]

32. I never questioned her integrity - just her judgment

The tomato fight with Olbermann was waaay over the top.

So tricking the Repubs in court after the inauguration would be better than displaying solid evidence of fraud now, before the inauguration?

Why does this NOT make sense to me?

[tbuddha]

35. It looks like Olbermann started the tomato fight

but I forgive him and even you. Especially when it was miscommunication due to a producer.

Now it's your turn. C'mon, let's work together to do this ok?

[Jersey Devil]

48. Show the damned tapes now

They aren't going to do anyone any good after the inauguration. If she is just going to go on the KO show without them she may as well not appear at all because she will look terrible. She has to give him something, even if it is just a snippet.

[tbuddha]

62. We'll do what we want with them

If you can't handle that, too bad.

YOU, my friend, are not in charge here.

[Jersey Devil]

67. No public responsibility for BBV, huh?

You sound just like Bev's web page. Did you write it?

[ClassWarrior]

71. WE'LL do what we want with them??

Interesting...

NGU.

[americanstranger]

73. Wow. Just wow.

You've been pleading for calm all morning, and you let loose with this response? 'We'll do what we want with them?'

Goddam. True colors, shown.

-as

[Jersey Devil]

79. I am betting he also authored the bbv web page of today

Methinks we also have a Victor/Victoria issue, if you know what I mean.

[pointsoflight]

80. That could severly damage the lawsuit.

Right now, the election officials in Volusia County have no idea which polling tapes Bev has--after all, they threw some away in trash bags, others in a dumpster, others back at the office. And there are many, many polling tapes. Without knowing which tapes Bev has, they can't very easily go back and cover their tracks--i.e., tamper with the actual ballots so that they match up with the official counts. If they did know what Bev has, they could do that.

[Jersey Devil]

88. Good tactics. Bev can trick them in court - next July

That'll really be good!

[pointsoflight]

111. Unfortunately I don't think she's on the same timeline.

Her goal is not to overturn elections, but to expose problems and force election reform, which is a more long-term goal. So her deadline is not the Dec 13 electoral vote day or Jan 6 inaugeration day. That's unfortunate for those of us who have different goals, but that's how it is.

Having said that, I do think it helps her longer-term cause to expose things while it's still in the public eye. I think (hope?) she will.

[Alizaryn]

108. Sounds good

[noclonyofthechimp]

49. makes perfect sense.

[thephaseshift]

36. I'm sure

we won't be requiring 'credentials' in this forum. Some people seem to have gained Bev's trust, plain and simple. Good for them.

As to why Bev would not want to reveal her cards...it's not difficult to imagine reasons. How about: so she can continue to get the information she needs to make a strong case for fraud, with the element of surprise on her side. And so she has time to mull over what she has and come to the correct conclusions before being forced to make educated guesses on 'Countdown' or wherever. The point is, we're not in a position to judge.

Whether her public stunt in Florida works for our cause or against it isn't clear...but I can understand that she might feel like a bit likt a one-woman army working against almost-impossible odds, and so she has to keep the ball in her court and be aggressive sometimes, keeping in mind the long-term goals and not short-term consequences.

It may turn out to have been a bad idea to do what she did, but maybe not. Again - let's just withold judgement until the game is over. She deserves the benefit of the doubt, what with all she's done in the last years.

[tbuddha]

65. Thank you...well said

[liberalnurse]

37. Since you are such an activist......

Why don't you go on a mission and do the voting fraud investigation? You seem comfortable with demanding others to preform your bidding.....

[saracat]

11. I second that Why of the previous poster.

If not now, when? It is the eleventh hour. We won't need them later.And why didn't she explain that to the Olberman people? Just curious. I am not attacking but knowing something about the business, Keith still sounds more reasonable.

[smartvoter]

16. Make it three.

[Carl Brennan]

13. That was my first suspicion after reading that

Olberman relied on his "staff". Sounds like a miscommunication.

I wish DU'ers would quit getting so ballistic over this and engage their investigative skills. :eyes:

[AmyCrat]

21. miscommunication doesn't warrant the harsh public response on the BBV site

[smartvoter]

30. So they should take down the retraction demand, then.

[Carl Brennan]

60. Unless the harsh response was made before a miscommunication

was known to be the cause of the problem.

When I first read Olberman's take what jumped out at me was the fact that he relied on his "staff" to communicate with BBV; then I thought that is probably where some miscommunication occurred. He then goes on to say not so nice things about Bev. If his staff did

I'm just a little disappointed with DU on this. People spouting off before they do a little thinking.

[tbuddha]

66. That will be updated...please be patient...she just found out

and isn't just sitting around updating her website.

[sce56]

15. Kick n/t just Graphics

:kick:

[bmoney07]

17. here is my email to Keith

Please Keith, we the citizens of America are begging you to have Bev Harris on your show as soon as humanly possible.

You have done us a great service and we have done a great service for you as well based on the recent ratings for your show.

Its a two way street.

Thank you

Concerned American.

************************

lets fill his inbox:

'[e-mail]'

[saracat]

86. I am going to write and apologize for his having his producer treated

disrespectfully And thank him for protecting the credibility of the vote fraud issue.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

22. If what you say is true, it doesn't sound like a miscommunication to me.

She DOESN'T want to show the tapes, which is exactly what Olbermann said.

:shrug:

[saracat]

23. Why hasn't Bev corrected the impression

the producer got? Didn't Bev used to be in PR? This is just basic stuff. That would be constructive "damage control". Surely she isn't waiting for Keith's people to contact her?

[tbuddha]

40. This is what happened with the producer

Bev has been busy and the producer at MSNBC (she told me her name but I forgot), only was geting voice mail. Somewhere along the way to tellin Keith that became a refusal.

You'll have to ask MSNBC why that is.

[saracat]

90. Someone should be doing PR for BBV then

Nothing should have been more important to Bev that MSM exposure. You make it sound like a very limp writed effeort to correct the situation. There are always ways to get through to people. I always can, but I an good at PR. If Bev is too, she would have moved heaven and earth to get to Keith. Throwing the ball to MSNBC does no good. They are the important ones.They are the ones whose butt has to be kissed, not Bev. Without MSM esposure Bev is nothing.

[smartvoter]

24. So will she be taking down the demand for retraction, then?

These don't exactly sync up.

[tbuddha]

41. I'm sure the site will be updated as soon as she gets the chance..

God, she only just found out.

[PATRICK]

26. That thought came to mind

the unfriendly chain of communication in production to Keith. yet HE should know those pitfalls before he jumps the gun. That is is his business and his chain of information, not Bev's. And this burns up useless heat that damages both parties. In fact it is precisely the editors and producers that create 90% of the news problem as both Keith and Bev had demonstrated right at the beginning.

It is also why anyone should be leery of friendly journalists under the thumb of their company or whether their professional skills are hamstrung or even atrophied in the current sad state of the media.

This whole discussion in fact should be under the media discussion board as more of that particular over-problem than BBV itself.

[tbuddha]

43. AMEN

[Blue in the face]

72. I spoke with her too

I am embarrassed to say that I tried calling BBV to speak with someone to urge them to get a PR person and work on their website in regards to keeping people from being discouraged. I actually talked to Bev.

I feel badly about having done so because I know that this type of back and forth gossipy stuff takes away from the real investigative work that needs to be done, and I am just as guilty as anyone else of wasting the time of people who would be better spent talking with poll workers, gathering evidence and building the case for fraud. But instead Bev had to take time out to explain the situation, clear up misconceptions and defend her investigative process. That was not my intention and I am sorry for jumping in the middle. If everyone did what I did an hour ago, Bev wouldn't have any time to do any actual research.

With that said, there is definitely communication going on between MSNBC and BBV. Bev explained that since this would be evidence, she didn't want to put every bit of tape out there and risk giving the other side a chance to clean up after themselves. But she reiterated that she should the tapes to CNN cameramen and would to MSNBC as well, if they asked.

Also in terms of Bev letting everyone in on the investigation, I get the sense that BBV.org's cleanup crew was designed to help gather evidence on election day. Now that election day is over, 5000 people can't follow Bev, Andy and Kathleen's every move without also alerting the Freepers what they are up to. I think I surprised her by stating that people are using her board to hang on to the hope that this election will be blown wide open. I think that she thought the board was being used for investigative work. I don't think it was meant to be a pep rally, nor a day by day journal of her investigative work. And I agree with Bev that to release all details of what she has and what she is doing would tip off the people that she is investigating.

I know we are all so desperate for this story to break that every day that goes by without the big explosion that we know will happen we assume that nothing is being done. If we could just get back to what we were doing two days ago, gathering evidence, supporting each other and pushing the mainstream media to seriously investigate this, we'll be a lot better off. I don't mean to sound self-important or to try to speak for Bev. I am just a stay-at-home mother hoping that this issue keeps moving forward and just trying to help out in any way I can. Again, I apologize for joining in the fray. I'll try to stay out of the way from now on.

[PATRICK]

91. Bev and DU suddenly shared the same problem

Even though there ARE a few websites that list all the fraud activism, the major suddenly thrust to the fore were the largely unready for prime time scrutiny DU and blackboxvoting.org. One a chat room for free ranging discussions and the other a tightly focused activist website on BBV.

Because everyone else was under the spell and moving on. WE claimed to know better and suddenly were front and center the shit disturbers that everyone who needed info were directed to. And had to flounder in the strangeness. From media fog to real election fraud smoke.

Dealing with the media at all under those circumstances was as much a curse as a blessing. Of course the TV beachhead was illusory. Just a lab for the spinners to experiment on the "pests" and define them scornfully away with the shoddiest of brief bites gleaned from disreputable sources.

So how did we direct people to "the truth" or "the story"? With great difficulty for anyone except an aficionado. Hard to mobilize the nation when it never occurred to us WE would have to format for that role. Especially when the primary concern, the Kerry campaign, had gone stealth.

For days when I had posters and cards ready, Bev's site was down. How to weave a reference to the DU threads that were clear enough? Strange how a professional burden not in our provenance was thrust upon us by a nation gone mentally AWOL.

[Blue in the face]

101. I agree

"So how did we direct people to "the truth" or "the story"? With great difficulty for anyone except an aficionado. Hard to mobilize the nation when it never occurred to us WE would have to format for that role. Especially when the primary concern, the Kerry campaign, had gone stealth.

For days when I had posters and cards ready, Bev's site was down. How to weave a reference to the DU threads that were clear enough? Strange how a professional burden not in our provenance was thrust upon us by a nation gone mentally AWOL."

I agree with everything you said, especially the part about being thrust in the spotlight. It is one thing to be an internet keyboard commando telling people the way it should be, it's another to be told, "ok then do something about it." I hope that this shit that has gone on the last few days helps us realize our mistakes and correct them and not just descend into a finger-pointing, name-calling circus.

This board and BBV has done a lot of good in this process, but message boards don't hold all the keys. As much as we have people with amazing insight and investigative skills, googling, charting and discussing only lays the ground work for finding hard evidence. But it isn't going to be the way this story blows up. It has to be about finding soundbite-worthy facts that expose the fraud and for that we need to count the votes. It has to be about getting the story out there and for that we need a movement, not just a theory.

I hope we can get past the Bev/Keith issue and get back to working on shining the light on Fla, Oh, Nev, NM and everywhere else we think we can find the answers.

[saracat]

97. That isn't what she needs a PR person for.Clearly she doesn't

know how to speak to the media, or the public. Look at this mess, that sorry, she created. This started with the grandstanding at the dinner, Keith's putdown and now this. All actions generated from Bev. She is suppode to be a PR person herself . I have no idea what she thinks she is doing but she need to get out of the spotlight PDQ and get someone else to be a credible spokesperson.

[drm604]

Can you clarify what you mean by "tapes"

I've noticed some confusion on DU about this word in discussions about Bev and BBV. Some people take it to mean videotapes while others take it to mean voting machine tapes (printouts). Which are you talking about?
If the discussion is about videotapes then there doesn't seem to be a good rationale for not showing them. If it's about machine tapes then there is a good argument for withholding them so as not to inform certain precincts that they may be investigated.
We really need more clarity in these discussions.

[tbuddha]

52. They are polling tapes...NOT video tapes

Ever seen a reel of receipt paper? kinda like that, they track votes in a polling machine.

[Catherine Vincent]

44. I think most of us here believe this thing between Keith and Bev

is miscommunication. That's all.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

51. WHAT IS THE MISCOMMUNICATION?

If KO wants to show the videotapes and BH does NOT want to show them, what is the miscommunication?

[tbuddha]

54. For the third time now...a producer at MSNBC dropped the ball

Keith's producer called Bev recently and only got voicemail. She then proceeded to tell Keith that she refused to come on the show. Big difference.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

61. But you said...

"She assured me that she does have the tapes and that they are holding off at showing all their cards."

"Holding off" implies that she does NOT want to show the videotapes that KO is asking for. So WHERE is the miscommunication? If KO's show wanted to air the tapes, and BH does NOT want to air them yet and told this to the show, then what is the miscommunication?

[drm604]

68. Chimpy, tbuddha is talking about polling tapes, not videotapes.

See message 52 in this thread.

[tbuddha]

70. THEY'RE NOT VIDEOTAPES, THEY'RE POLLING TAPES

GOD!!

First get the facts straight. She will show them on her time and by her conditions. As far as Keith goes, that wasn't about showing tapes, that was just about going on the show period.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

92. But the polling tapes are what KO asked her for.

Okay, so I was a little confused on that one point. No reason to be snotty. The point is that KO wants her to come on the show WITH "the voting tapes Bev Harris found discarded in the trash in Florida" as he wrote in his blog.

But you say that Bev Harris does NOT want to share these tapes because she does not want to reveal which precincts she has evidence on. So I still don't understand what the miscommunication is.

I'm just trying to figure this out. Seems like if you are claiming to speak for BH you'd want to help clarify the matter.


From KO's blog:

"Each and every day since our coverage of all this began on November 8, I have received a set of emails, some times a few, some times many, asking 'Why don’t you have Bev Harris on Countdown?,' 'Why don’t you run the Bev Harris videotapes?,' 'Why don’t you show the voting tapes Bev Harris found discarded in the trash in Florida?'

Because she won’t let us.

I have not dealt with Ms. Harris directly, but my staff has, and though we have asked her on a regular basis to let us show these tapes on national television, she has declined."


From BH's website:

"Contrary to Olbermann's assertions, neither he nor his staff have EVER asked Harris to show anyone the Volusia County tapes."

"Harris showed the Volusia County tapes to CNN cameramen, but Harris has never been asked to show any Volusia County materials to any MSNBC producers, or NBC producers."

"Also contrary to Olbermann's claims, Harris is not making a documentary, but the makers of the Votergate documentary, an independent team who captured the Volusia County trash incident on film, are eager to interview Keith Olbermann on camera to ask him why he produced this report."


It sounds like KO's show did NOT ask for the Votergate documentary footage but the voting tapes found in the trash by BH.

[HeyManThatsCool]

82. Insanity

If she DOES in fact have the tapes, WHY WILL SHE NOT SHOW THEM?
Any thinking person can see that logic is not sensible!!
Who is she keeping them from? Why hide the cards? This isnt ABOUT BEV!! It is about US- disenfranchised voters everywhere who are praying to god that someone comes out with solid evidence and gets the ball rolling!! As it is, her actions are only serving to allow people to say that we all wear tin hats. She should be out there everywhere everywhere everywhere putting those tapes all over the darn place so that a firestorm of interest is created. Does she not realize that many Americans DO NOT EVEN KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM?
I think she is taking donations to fund the project but isnt doing anything PUBLIC to earn them. What good does any of this do if she is the only one who will ever see the evidence?

I have to wonder if she really has anything

[saracat]

81. Why din't Bev call back then? I am a little bit tired of the slamming

of the nameles producer. Producers do all the heavy lifting for these shows and Keith's show wouldn'r be as good as it is W?O a competant producer.

[carolinalady]

113. wait a minute--I thought it was ALWAYS the producers fault! LOL

[SueZhope]

53. let me ask this again

If she does not want to show the tapes then why was she trying to show them to CNN
Thanks

This is on her site
"Harris showed the Volusia County tapes to CNN cameramen"

[intelle]

57. This is a good question

and one, I think, that should be answered.

[pointsoflight]

87. It makes complete sense, actually.

There are two pieces of damaging evidence here.

1. The very fact that there were official, SIGNED polling tapes from election night is very suspicious, and is in fact illegal. So just showing that such tapes were in the garbage is newsworthy, but at the same time, doesn't give the specifics (which polling tapes from which precincts) that would allow for a cover up, and thereby hurt the lawsuit.

2. The second potentially damaging piece of evidence is what those tapes actually show--whether the counts on those tapes match the certified counts from the corresponding precincts. It makes sense that you would NOT want to reveal this information at this point because it could hurt the lawsuit. If the election officials knew which specific polling tapes Bev has, they could, for example, try to cover their tracks by tampering with actual ballots to make them match the counts that were certified. There are too many precincts to do this without knowing which ones are in question, so it does make sense to withhold these details while the lawsuit is pending.

[F.Gordon]

63. Probably.....

If she does not want to show the tapes then why was she trying to show them to CNN

Because CNN got the same information I did, that debunks the significance of the tapes. Oh wait, I'm a "poser" :eyes:. Nevermind. I'm full of shit. Disregard what I just said....

[tbuddha]

77. really? and what information is that?

I'm dying to know

[F.Gordon]

112. Are you really "dying to know"?

I'll just focus on Precinct 215 since the other "fraud" precinct numbers aren't being given out. However, if they were then I could address each of them individually.

On election night the data for 215 wasn't uploaded via the modem because a message came up that the poll workers weren't familar with. The memory card was taken to the election offices and they tried to run it through a different machine. The same message came up, hence the screenshot. However, since it's not being disclosed specifically what was on the screenshot that they found in the trash, I can't be certain that they are the same screenshot. But, I suspect they are. If it would be confirmed exactly what the screenshot said, then we could clear up this part of the "fraud evidence".

So, they started over and did a recount of precinct 215 feeding all the ballots into a new machine. Two days later it was discovered that only 1/2 of the ballots bags had been recounted. A simple human error that was discovered quickly. No "black box" fraud. Hence, the number difference from the 11/2 data and the 11/15 data. Hence, the time log differences and all the other "evidence" of fraud. Hence, all the stuff being found in the trash. Oh, and the memory card message was finally resolved.

There is more to this, but since I'm just a "poser" :eyes:, nothing I say should be taken seriously. Besides, I promised Bev I wouldn't rain on her parade threads and I've already broken that promise. And I've broken my promise to keep this information private, providing all the details to just a few dems I'm friendly with. How much more are you "dying to know"???

Edit: typo....

[pointsoflight]

98. Actually, there is nothing that can debunk the significance.

Regardless of whether the numbers on the tapes suggest tampering, it is illegal to discard official, signed, public documents. That alone is significant.

[tbuddha]

75. Have you seen them on CNN?>

[pointsoflight]

84. See post #83.

[saracat]

109. And why would anyone show anything to a cameraman?

The cameraman is the lowest of the pecking order. This all makes no sense. And no one still has answered why Bev didn't call MSNBC back if she got a voice mail. The producer could have gotten the impression that she wasn't intersted if she didn't return calls.

[Cocoa]

76. I'll wait to hear it from Olbermann

just like with Wayne Madsen.

Until I hear from Olbermann otherwise, I'll assume he believes both Bev Harris and Wayne Madsen are full of shit, despite supporters of both Harris and Madsen who assure us without evidence that Olbermann somehow has backed off his statements.

None of this implies that what Olbermann thinks should matter any more than it does. No thinking person would need him to know that both Harris and Madsen are fraudulent, they just have to read the tripe for themselves.

[AmyCrat]

94. but it would be NICE if Olbermann didn't think she was a freak...

since he's the one with the larger venue right now.

Goal: Get them both on the same page since they are supposed to be on the same side.

[pointsoflight]

100. Yes, that's exactly what the goal should be!!!

[Patsy Stone]

107. He doesn't think she's a freak

As I wrote on one of the 437 other threads on this stupid tail-chasing we've got goin' on here, what she did in that meeting looks bad! We've got to straighten up and fly right. "They" are watching and spinning now, because Kerry's involved. Even if it's only his "toenail."

She is doing great things, he is doing great things, we are doing great things. If we have people out there who are gathering evidence, and who are trying to fly under the radar, then for God's sake, please don't pull a stunt like that in public again. It makes the whole thing look ridiculous and the Rovian psyops will lambast us and KO for being taken over by WACKOS and besmirching the great, good works going down.

Also, I'm pretty sure from watching him for many years that if he's wrong, he'll damned well say so.

To all the pro-Bev and pro-Keith factions:

"Now, you kids behave, don't make me pull this car over and separate the two of you!"

[Kelvin Mace]

95. Bev needs to come on here and explain herself

[Razorback_Democrat]

103. See Post #69

it has a link to General Discussion where Bev did respond

[ClassWarrior]

104. Okay, so now that Keith has given her this Grand Canyon sized opening...

...why isn't she strolling through it? If it was only a matter of Countdown asking for the tapes?

NGU.

[Razorback_Democrat]

105. don't know

maybe she's busy?

but good question

ask the buddha, he/she seems to be Bev's spokesperson here

[ClassWarrior]

106. You're right, RD. Well tbuddha?

NGU.

[Vidar]

102. Thanks, tbuddha, I was pretty sure it was something like this.

We need both Bev and Keith.

[Skinner]

114. Continue discussion here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x104119