"Avoid a shouting match."

[ClassWarrior]

"Remember that the radical right requires a culture war, and shouting is the discourse form of that culture war. Civil discourse is the discourse form of nurturant (Progressive) morality. You win a victory when the discourse turns civil. They win when they get you to shout."

"What if you have moral outrage? You should have moral outrage. But you can display it with controlled passion. If you lose control, they win."

"Be calm... Be good-humored... Hold your ground. Always be on the offense... Never whine or complain. Never act like a victim. Never plead. Avoid the language of weakness... You should convey passionate conviction without losing control."

And, ultimately...

"Progressive values are the best of traditional American values. Stand up for your values with dignity and strength. You are a true patriot because of your values."

This olive branch and killer strategy comes from the essential new primer for Progressives, "Don't Think of an Elephant," by George Lakoff (see photo at left).

NGU.

[jean]

1. Being on the offense has been very effective for me. Too many

times I've seen repubs attack and our side collapse into a weak defensive mode.

There is so much power in knowing your stuff, anticipating and literally staying on your toes. When they attack you can move in any direction and take on any frame they throw out. Try it - you'll love it!

[ClassWarrior]

2. Being on the offensive without resorting to shouting.

It's a razor's edge, but well worth it.

NGU.

[jean]

8. Exactly! While I don't box, it seems like sparring - staying light on

your feet, ducking their blows and coming back at them from unexpected angles. But it is civil discourse, all the way.

The people I deal with are predictable . . .

(Actually, all of us should be able to predict what our repub adversaries will throw at us - their daily talking points are broadcast far and wide!)

so if I just maintain and can articulate a current database of info and insight, they just can't stand up to civil discourse and end up pouting, huffing and puffing.

I maintain a light-hearted, even tone - no darkness, decibels or personal attacks are necessary.

[MarkusQ]

65. Ask your self "How would Socrates handle it?"

Ask them questions.

I have found this very effective. For example, by asking questions like "Do you think Bush is in control/knows what's going on/is a strong leader?" and "If it wasn't WMD, what exactly was our justification for invading Iraq?/What was it that Sadam did that was evil?" you can quickly get to the conclusion "Either Bush is an incompetent or he is responsible for the prisoner abuse."

Likewise, asking questions about managing personal finances, and the advisability of charging things you know you can't afford, or moral values and lying, etc. vs. "what does it mean to be a conservative?", or the whole "uniter vs. divider" issue, most people will quickly wind up (in trying to defend the indefensible) saying things that they never would have agreed with if you had said them.

Just be careful they don't try to make you drink hemlock.

--MarkusQ

[ClassWarrior]

3. Apparently you're all too busy bickering to give a thread a kick, eh?...

:kick: for the best of traditional American values.

NGU.

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. But it ain't easy.

I wind up shouting, because I'm not allowed to grab them by the shoulders and shake them to get their attention.

But seriously, if I shout, even if I make my points, I feel like I lost.

[ClassWarrior]

5. I know what you mean. Just makes you feel like crap.

Not to mention damaging your point. It's something for us to work on. Starting now. In this forum. :evilgrin:

NGU.

[Sideways]

32. When I Yell Even If I Win I Am Diminished

I end up feeling like a beat up a little kid. Diminished is the operative word. Great thread CW. :loveya:

[melissaf]

6. Might be a case of

Too many cooks spoiling the broth.

No one person is God, and there's more than enough fraud to go around. Let's just do this thang and stop tramping on each other's toes.

[mattclearing]

7. Thanks for this.

Everyone should remember this, both in dealing with each other, and especially in dealing with the opposition.

Volume does not equal persuasion.

It is merely the last resort of the desperate.

[ClassWarrior]

11. Thanks for understanding.

NGU.

[jamboi]

9. Good advice! I think righties have a culture encouraging disciplined

sticking to talking points and are encouraged and "taught" by the likes of Limbaugh, O'Reilly, & Hannity who themselves practice tactics everyday on their shows and get to be experts at slime-ball debating. We need to enculture a tough but persuasively fair persona that can overcome these shout-you-down approach and spread it among progressives. I like the AirAmerica humor and the Ed Schultz populism, and the Thom Hartmann intelligence. Those can be the hallmarks of left debate tactics.

[ClassWarrior]

10. Exactly. They're focused on creating a food fight.

We should be focused on bringing people together. It's one of our most cherished values.

NGU.

[Sideways]

33. Let Them Have Their Food Fight We Bring Food To The Table And Feed

Nothing like breaking bread and sharing. NOTHING. Well except really good sex but that is another discussion.:evilgrin:

[ClassWarrior]

38. It's all about togetherness, right?

:evilgrin:

NGU.

[Sideways]

39. Lol Right!

[ClassWarrior]

40. LOL... Reading thru this thread...

You seem to have "togetherness" on the mind, Side... :evilgrin:

NGU.

[Turn CO Blue]

12. Kick. I usually notice your posts. You're like the

calm voice of reason during the bickering matches.

[ClassWarrior]

16. Thanks. Just doing what I can for the cause.

NGU.

[Wiley50]

13. Calm Voice of Reason

Class,
I too, always seek out your posts. We old hippys gotta stick together.
I started that thread this morning because my only help in this county had been shouted at by the one we depend on in our organization as the calm voice of reason.
Geeze, If you all knew just how hard Bernie had worked. I can't get him on the phone to hear more because he planned to leave for Ohio this morning.
I don't mean to drag that over into this thread, I just wish that you could give us your calm take on it, over there.


Wiley

[ClassWarrior]

15. From whence did you get the impression that I'm an old hippie??

Or even that I'm old?

NGU.

[Wiley50]

18. Dunno? Just had that vibe

or perhaps it is the avatar you chose.
Who is that anyway

[ClassWarrior]

19. That's George Lakoff, the author of the quotes in the original post.

Pick up his book. It's only ten bucks, and WELL worth the investment.

NGU.

[Sideways]

36. That Isn't You In The Photo? Duh LOL CW

Reading comprehension skills are in short supply these days. I never got the vibe you are a hippie or old. I think you are in your 30s. That is YOUNG!

[ClassWarrior]

14. First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you.

Then you win.

- Gandhi

NGU.

[Sideways]

34. We Are Entering Stage Three

The fight is about to break out. We have to remember the wisdom spoken in this thread because if we sink to their level all is lost.

They are the Masters Of The Hate Universe. We must not go there for many reasons. First because it is an uneven playing field aided and abetted by the complicit and whorish press. Second they have a lock on uncivil discourse. Third but not lastly our moral and ethical compasses get off track when we bend to evil.

Get ready for the fight of the Century folks it is coming. Hold your head up high.

[merbex]

47. I love that phrase - they have a lock on uncivil discourse

another reason why I really don't have friends in that party - that phrase sums up the ones I do know so well

[ClassWarrior]

17. kick

:kick:

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

20. and again

:kick:

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

21. kicking help anyone?

Folks need to see this. This is KEY.

:kick:

NGU.

[bleever]

22. This is really important.

"You win a victory when the discourse turns civil. They win when they get you to shout."

You can't win a shouting match with them, because if you're shouting you're doing it THEIR way and you've already lost.

Not getting sucked in, and standing your own ground is critical. Perfect example from today: Cliff Arnebeck on C-Span gets a call from a National Guardsman who accuses him of hating soldiers and trying to tear down his leader. Arnebeck responds without jumping on the buzzwords of "hate" or "tearing down", stating that all of us, without regard to party, value the truth, and that is what he is working for.

[bleever]

23. Kicked.

[ClassWarrior]

24. Thanx bleev!

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

25. late night kick

:kick:

NGU.

[txindy]

26. Good message, ClassWarrior.

Let's hope the advice about not shouting sinks in. ;)

:kick:

[proudbluestater]

27. I think Cliff oh my God, what's his name? Arnebeck!

I think he took this to heart, if you saw him on C-Span today. He hit a homerun in my book. No taking the Republican's bait. Just calm, clear, self-assured, no hysteria. But you know what? That's true of most Dems. (I say that, even though he has done work for both parties.) We don't tend to get hysterical, yet we are often accused of doing so by the people like Rush and Anne who DO get hysterical.

Trouble with the Repukes is, most of them are tooo cowardly to let an opposing point of view share their venue. Take Rush, I do not ever listen to him, but it's my understanding that he rarely takes calls from the opposition. If this is true, no wonder the SOB gets away with all this BS. It's not all that freaking hard to win a war if you are too chicken to face the enemy.

[Joe Chi Minh]

41. Ever read this?

Utterly hilarious. Especially the last two!

http://www.freewayblogger.com/funwithhateradio.htm

[glitch]

53. Hysterical! Thanks for posting! nt

:dem:

[marions ghost]

74. Yes Cliff Arnebeck on C-Span...check it out

This segment on C-span aired last Thursday but is still very relevant.
I agree--it gives a good impression of lawyer Cliff Arnebeck. He is with http://www.alliancefordemocracy.org, which does public interest litigation. Arnebeck speaks clearly about what is going on in Ohio right now. The Washington Journal interviewer had some very tough questions--the interviewer also said, "some of our viewers suspect fraud..." It was very fair to our point of view.

I recommend watching the video clip---

GO TO:
http://www.c-span.org
Look Under C-span Archives
Washington Journal Entire Program 12/2/04
Cliff Arnebeck, Counsel in Lawsuit Challenging Presidential Election in Ohio
----------------------
SEND ENCOURAGEMENT TO C-SPAN and maybe we will get to see more.....!

If you want to give feedback, send to:
[e-mail]

[marions ghost]

75. OOPs, use this link for The Alliance for Democracy:

sorry, link in last post for THE Alliance For Democracy should be--

http://www.thealliancefordemocracy.org

Group that Cliff Arnebeck is asociated with.

[bleever]

28. Bedtime kick.

[ClassWarrior]

29. Night bleev...

:kick:

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

30. Ward, weren't you a little hard on the bleever?

NGU.

[bleever]

37. After all Ward, he's just trying to save democracy as we know it.

[ClassWarrior]

44. Gee Wally, Dad's such a fascist.

:7

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

45. Awww, quit givin' him the business, bleev...

NGU.

[bleever]

50. Dad's just sore onaccounta the President shifting the tax burden

to the middle class, and the dopes are going along with it.

:7

[ClassWarrior]

51. That's crummy.

Wally, what's a presdident?

NGU.

[bleever]

52. Well bleev, you know how sometimes you walk into a room

full of guys, and everybody's laughing, but you can tell some of the guys are just laughing cuz they don't want anyone to know they don't get the joke?

And everybody's kinda looking at one guy to see whether they should be laughing or not? Well, the president's kinda like that guy. Even if he doesn't know what's going on, everybody has to follow him. And so he has to act like he knows.

You know, it's kind funny when you think of it.

[ClassWarrior]

54. Boy Wally...

Grown-ups suck.

NGU.

[bleever]

57. Nah, bleev, they're no creepier than kids. You've just got to

hang around with the right guys. That way you won't end up with a jerk for your president.

[ClassWarrior]

60. Ya mean like Eddie Haskell, Wally?

NGU.

[bleever]

61. Nah, Eddie's not so bad, as long as you don't listen to his goofy

ideas. But boy, if a guy like Eddie ever did get to be the president, things sure would be a mess.

But we don't have to worry about that. Now go to sleep, bleev.

[bleever]

62. Gee Wally, how's a guy supposed to sleep after thinkin' about

Eddie Haskell as president? I think that's the creepiest thought anybody's ever had. But I guess I should stop worrying, cuz a guy still hasta get the most votes to be president, right?

[ClassWarrior]

63. Yeah, sumpthin' like that, bleev... Now go to sleep.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

64. ~ a brief period of silence ~

Hey bleev?...

NGU.

[bleever]

66. Yeah Wally?

[ClassWarrior]

68. You may be a little creep...

But I'm glad you're my brother.

NGU.

[bleever]

69. Gee, thanks Wally. Me too. G'night.

:-)

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

71. G'night bleev...

:-)

NGU.

[pauldp]

31. Kick Ass

[ClassWarrior]

49. kick-ass below

:kick:

NGU.

[Sideways]

35. Kick For Controlled Passion

We know they lose their cool because they never get laid.

[Joe Chi Minh]

42. Your paragraph below

is spot-on.

"Be calm... Be good-humored... Hold your ground. Always be on the offense... Never whine or complain. Never act like a victim. Never plead. Avoid the language of weakness... You should convey passionate conviction without losing control."

Never be a supplicant in any shape or form to a predator. I know the situation in Israel is complex, but I remember thinking this about a Palestinian spokesman. The best attitude for them always to adopt is to make it clear, even in a diffident way, that they may talk quietly, but they carry a big stick: their preparedness to die for their cause.

If you can deride the neos, while retaining even a little levity, you're likely to be remembering what you always should, i.e. that you're in the box seat, because your stand is on truth; and that's more than half the battle. Let them humiliate themselves with all their transparent little tricks.

[ClassWarrior]

55. Humor and truth ARE dangerous in the right hands, aren't they?

:evilgrin:

NGU.

[Joe Chi Minh]

67. It's the *only* way,

when we're dealing with people who are completely off-the-wall.

At least if you argue or discuss with a young child, there's a very good chance that he/she is arguing in good faith. But when we take these characters' arguments seriously, we are just allowing them to demean and mock us, and we fully deserve such treatment. It makes absolutely no sense to credit them with good faith, and accordingly to argue with them in good faith.

Just look at the Gospels. Didn't Christ recognise the bad faith of his critics, the scribes and pharisees, and simply ridicule them? He knew what cold, evil thoughts were going on in their minds and hearts, and in answer to their criticisms, whether elliptically expressed in "trick" questions or unspoken, he undercut them by addressing the false hypotheses their arguments, indeed their very lives were based on. "Go away and find out the meaning of, "'It is mercy I want, not sacrifice, knowledge of God, not holocausts'", for example.

I had an uncle, now deceased, whose sense of humour was so bitter, that if you laughed at his jokes, he'd get really ratty! I think Christ's sense of humour went beyond even that most of the time, though now and again, you come across something lighter. (I would agree with you, nevertheless, that we need a lighter touch most of the time, if at all possible).

But I doubled up for the first time, when reading a particular passage in one of the Gospels that had never struck me in quite the same way, before. It was the passage in which Jesus tells Peter to catch a fish and take out the coin he would find in its mouth, to pay a particular tax - I think it was a Temple tax. But I see it now as a whimsical expression of humour, while, at the same time, proving to them in spades that indeed God was his father in a very special way. But, as he said, rather than hurt their consciences - since the officials and others found it hard to grasp Christ's true identity - he would pay it, nonetheless.

On another board during the 2000 Election circus, I used to write to a now defunct forum called PolicyCom.

To some extent, we all play-act in life, and we try to project the persona we want to be, and to some extent we form our personalities and characters in this way. I think it's related to existentialism. Anyway, it's always been a policy of mine not to try and project a kind of false persona on the Internet. As a result of this policy, I can come across at times as almost abject - not one of life's winners, Action Man, a (so-called) Alpha Male, or whatever I might have liked to be.

As a result of some passage I wrote in that vein, some lout of a Republican who boasted that he employed some twenty or maybe forty people (I can't remember now) made a kind of sneering jibe at me. I was content to let it pass and bide my time, but just the next day he wrote something about "the anals of history". Just for a bit of fun, I suggested it sounded like a Freudian slip. Well, to my astonishment, it seemed to have completely phased him, and *he* became seriously abject.

So, I was tempted to tell him that I was only kidding, it was surely a typo. For goodness sake, anyone can can misspell zummat on the keyboard. You can take this sort of Freudian stuff way too far, anyway. Are telegraph poles phallic symbols? But then I thought.. no, perhaps it would be better to let him stew in his own juice. Learning humility is not always easy, and it would do him no harm to learn something of it the hard way.

[Joe Chi Minh]

70. Projecting a persona

helpful to our self-esteem is, I think, healthy in young people, but at my age and in my state of health, different priorities commend themselves.

[ClassWarrior]

72. Wow, what a thought-provoking post...

In a way the leaders of the Radical RW - the Grover Norquists and such - are akin to the scribes and pharisees, jaded and calculating and full of bitterness. They're the ones who deserve the sharp rapier wit you describe, who deserve some humility. And they are the diehards who have little hope for change.

Then there are the rank & file RWers, the people who believe Progressive values but vote for demons like Bush** and Gingrinch. They fit the "young child" analogy you use, because they're manipulated by the "scribes and pharisees." They're the ones who need to be approached with a lighter touch, who should be feel our humor tempered with respect and love, for they can be brought into our fold if we take the time to relate to them.

Thank you my friend.

NGU.

[212demop]

43. Remember to come together December 12!

in your state capital.... Stand up with "dignity and strength!"

[mod mom]

46. Start tomorrow 12/4 in Columbus OH DEMAND FULL INVESTIGATION!

[ClassWarrior]

48. I'll be with you in spirit, mom...

NGU.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

56. This post makes a classic point.

You catch more flies with honey then you do with vinegar.

I know how difficult it can be to apply that when you are involved in a discord over an issue you feel passionate about, but the end results are worth it. When you lose your temper you've lost the argument. I don't respect a persons opinion unless they can deliver it in an intelligent, rational fashion. Why should I expect a person to respect mine if I can't do the same? Civility is as much must when facing our opposition as when dealing with our friends.

Wonderful post ClassWarrior. :)

[kc.ink]

58. I had a mentor explain to me that in a disagreement/ argument

you state your point and shut up. The first person who opens their mouth loses. Losing your temper shows your emotional maturity level and if you've lost it, well you get the point . . . . don't you?
Took me a few years to learn this skill.

[ClassWarrior]

59. I get it. I need to get better at practicing it, but I get it.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

73. Time for this thread to return.

:kick:

NGU.

[bj2110]

76. kickaroo

[Turn CO Blue]

77. Another kick for good measure.

NEVER GIVE UP!

[bleever]

78. Gee, Wally. How come when a guy's all sore about something,

he's gotta yell like that?

[bleever]

79. I dunno, bleeve. Maybe he's afraid that people will think he's a jerk,

and if he can get the other guy to yell and look like a jerk too, well then gee, he won't look so bad.

[bleever]

81. Well gee Wally, Larry Mondello's dad hollers all the time, sometimes

just at the TV. I think he kinda likes yellin'.

Oh and Wally, what's "integration"? Mr. Mondello seemed awfully upset about it.

[bleever]

80. A kick for the most excellent demeanor of John Conyers. Very nicely

done. Iron fist in velvet glove.

I look forward to hearing more wild-eyed reactions like the Congresswoman tonight who said, they just can't accept that they lost and that there aren't enough conspiracy (!) votes to change that.

:thumbsup: :7