Ok, We Lost Ohio. The Question is, Why

[righteous1]

Much has been made of the Republican effort to turn out votes through personal contact. Yet our poll shows voters in these Republican counties were just as likely to be visited by a Kerry supporter at their homes as by a Bush supporter... Full story @ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34157-2004Dec3_2.html

[aquart]

1. YOU may consider the issue settled. I do not.

This discussion is premature. And possibly irrelevant and unnecessary.

[The Backlash Cometh]

3. I'm wondering how a poster of 461 hits reaches a conclusion

like this on DU? From what I read, things are heating up in Ohio AND Florida.

[berniew1]

19. Here's the reason in Ohio: Stolen election; but its not over yet

Systematic Voter Suppression: STEALING VOTES IN Ohio Urban Areas (by ward/precinct)
Stealing Votes in Columbus
http://web.northnet.org/minstrel/columbus.htm
Stealing Votes in Cleveland http://web.northnet.org/minstrel/cleveland.htm
?
www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp?sort=date&sele...

Indications of possible ballot box stuffing in S.W. Ohio counties www.flcv.com/swohio.html
http://web.northnet.org/minstrel/warren.htm

Indications of irregularities or fraud in several Ohio counties
www.flcv.com/fraudioh.html

Favoritism in the Suburbs http://web.northnet.org/minstrel/suburbs.htm

Analysis Indicates Kerry could win Ohio with a "fair process" and fair vote count
http://web.northnet.org/minstrel/uncounted.htm

Richard Hayes Phillips, Ph.D. 4 Fisher Street Canton, New York 13617 [phone] [e-mail]

[Razorback_Democrat]

26. While I absolutely disagree with the original poster's conclusions

I think that your assumption that number of posts has anything to do with the ability to make a conclusion on DU is laughable!

What qualifies a 1000 post poster to have a "better" conclusion than someone with less posts?

In this case I think the original poster's conclusions are just wrong, not because of 461 posts, but because they have not fully looked at the evidence.

Thanks

[righteous1]

32. I made no conclusions, the opinions are those of

Steve Rosenthal, CEO of ACT

[The Backlash Cometh]

39. Your conclusions are way off.

I'm stating that BECAUSE of 461 posts, he's been here a while, so he would have read the promising developments which are occurring regarding voter fraud. I don't know how anybody who has been reading DU for the last month would post something that may have been valid days after the election, but not since the voter fraud investigations have been bleeding into this newsgroup.

On the other hand, yes, I would also question someone with low number counts starting threads with the same topic. It would tell me that they didn't lurk long enough to determine the direction of the current trends.

[righteous1]

5. First, this is the Opinion of the CEO

of ACT, America Coming Together, the outfit that the DNC gave responsibility for the GOTV efforts in Ohio, not neccessarily mine. Secondly, it's a worthwhile read.

[jamboi]

28. So what? All the top Dems up till now have been quiet. Watch what happens

this week. Everything is coming out. We don't know how OH really came out since we have no confidence in the current count. We need a recount.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

6. At this point, incendiary, if you ask me! n/t

[papau]

12. Indeed Steve Rosenthal does not discuss vote fraud - so why the post?

Steve Rosenthal
Sunday, December 5, 2004; Page B03

He concludes - after no discussion of fraud - that the Bushes votes - based on after election polls and exit polls - came from "skillful exploitation of public concern over terrorism by the Bush team -- coupled with Democrats' inability to draw clear, powerful contrasts on the economy and health care"
==============================================================
BUT Then he explains all the reasons that fraud is likely - without saying fraud is likely!

We did get out the Dem vote .. "not only exceeded our turnout goals for the Buckeye State, but far exceeded anything the Democrats have done in the past.

and "2004 election brought no increase whatsoever in the portion of the voting electorate who attend church on a weekly basis or more often than that, according to exit polls. In Ohio, the share of the electorate represented by frequent churchgoers actually declined from 45 percent in 2000 to 40 percent in 2004. Nationwide, Bush improved his vote among weekly churchgoers by just one point over 2000, while (APPARENTLY) increasing his support among those who don't go to church by four points."

BUSH did not out win by out-mobilizing Dems via huge turnout in GOP strongholds and suppressing turnout in Democratic areas - "Turnout in Democratic-leaning counties in Ohio was up 8.7 percent while turnout in Republican-leaning counties was up slightly less, at 6.3 percent."

There was no huge Bush margin in newly registered Republican voters in fast-growing rural and exurban areas - the split was about same or less than Bush vote among old registertion folks in those areas -"Bush beat Kerry by just five points among newly registered voters and by a mere two points among infrequent voters (those who did not vote in 2000)".

Bush did not out volunteer/contact the Dems -"When we asked new voters in rural and exurban areas who contacted them during this campaign, we learned that they were just as likely to hear from the Kerry campaign and its allies as from the Bush side. (In contrast, regular voters reported more contact from the GOP.)"

Bush had the conservative religious groups, pro-life organizations, and the National Rifle Association reaching (per post election polling) only "only 20 percent of exurban and rural Ohio voters" -"In contrast, these same voters in the least unionized regions of Ohio were more likely to have been contacted by a labor union."

[righteous1]

35. I guess I don't really understand your question

I this forum was called "2004 Vote Fraud Discussion" instead of "2004 Election Results and Discussion", i would

[papau]

43. headline implication is "move on" - if that is your position - say it

otherwise why post - at least why copy the WP headline writers crap -

This is not LBN - where exact copies of the original headline are required in the heading of the post.

[righteous1]

44. "My position" is to provide an article that gives some interesting

insights concerning voter behavior in Ohio by a respected authority, nothing more nothing less.

[papau]

46. the insights are interesting - and presume polls are correct - funny how

the Washington Post does not note that.

Some friends of mine seek to excuse DLC Dems/ GOP pundits /and our ever on the spot media by saying that journalism writing today has become "flabby" - it is not lazy people, or biased media management that cowardly folks wanting to "get ahead" try to please with crap articles - or as in this case - a crap headline.

What is your opinion about what leads to misleading US media articles and misleading headlines?

This is not a flame - I am just curious about your opinion - nothing more nothing less.

[righteous1]

47. I really don't have much of an opinion of the headline

one way or another. The author is basically analyzing reasons for a Kerry loss debunking some theories and explaining others, so i suppose the headline is not particularly at odds with the content. I personally feel that the author makes some very interesting points and frankly the headline to me is pretty much irrelevant. One must not forget that the vast majority of the people in this country do not feel there was vote fraud in this election. If you are expecting many articles (other than partisan pubs) that present the situation otherwise, you are going to be dissapointed

[papau]

49. 30 % say outright election theft - others OK or do not know -you're

correct that to expect an unbaised headline would be to foolish.

But the "headline is not particularly at odds with the content" - when the content depends on polls, and the headline says ignore polls, accept "vote" and move on, is hard to get to using the logic concepts that I thought were taught in America.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

2. In a word,

Fox News ------> www.outfoxed.org

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

4. We did not lose Ohio ! It was stolen by criminals! n./t

[goclark]

7. Amen, let's put this LIE to rest

[buddysmellgood]

8. Because of fraud. Get a clue.

Here's a little lesson in democracy for the recount bashers. Find a basher and ask them to make a $10 bill from a handfull of singles. Only give them $7. See if they count it. See if they say anything. Deny the problem. See if they ask for a recount. Tell them you already counted it. See if they ask for yet another recount. Ask them how many times do they need to count it? Tell them they are wasting your time and time is money. If they persist, and they will, tell them to get over it and move on. After all, it's just money, it's not like they spilled blood to get it.

[lonestarnot]

9. NOT NOT NOT

Where have you been for the past month...afganistan?

[Imajika]

10. How dare you post an article...

..that questions the accepted fact here on DU by so many that people that Bush only won through election fraud.

The nerve, the gall. Your practically a heretic now.

Nevermind that the author of this piece is none other than Steve Rosenthal, the chief executive officer of America Coming Together, who was one of our primary GOTV organizers. How dare you question the article of faith here that Bush could not have won without massive fraud.

Who is this Steve Rosenthal anyway to speak on this subject? Forget the fact that ACT, a major organization with plenty of money at its disposal which did heroic work for our cause in registering new voters, did serious research to determine what actually happened in Ohio and determined that terrorism and Iraq were really the two major issues that cost Kerry the state of Ohio. Silly conspiracy theories, without a shred of actual evidence to support them, are so much more believable than the real work done by ACT to determine how we lost aren't they?

The complete and utter fantasy that is being spun here day after day is simply amazing to me. There is a good reason why Kerry conceded, and that is because he did not get enough votes to win the election. Nothing is going to change that. All the recounts in the world will not make Kerry President. We are NOT going to overcome 119,000 votes in Ohio. It is not going to happen.

Imajika

[righteous1]

11. For crying out loud ,are you serious?

If you can't see past a myopic single minded view of this thing you are going to end of in a rubber room in the fetal position sucking on your thumb. There may be something that comes out of this recount, there also may not. The oddmakes (as well as a high % of people in the know) would agree on the latter. But that aside, The moment you start straining information thru the filter of preconceived notions that's the moment intellectual growth ceases

[papau]

13. I reject straining info thru the filter of preconceived notion "Bush won"

I wish our media did the same.

[righteous1]

14. So who in there right mind ever accused the MSM

of any degree od "intellectual growth"

[OneBlueSky]

17. "conspiracy theories, without a shred of actual evidence to support them"

that's only because they set the system up so there can't BE any evidence . . . such is the purpose of touchscreen voting . . . and the counting of votes by far-right Republican corporations, with no accountability to anyone . . . which is why it's so important to uncover and expose ALL instances of fraud, attempted fraud, and voter suppression, even if it doesn't turn the election . . . if we don't, we'll never win another national election . . .

[Yupster]

23. lalalalalalalalalalalala

(fingers in ears) I can't hear you.

[tritsofme]

34. That post could be tantamount to heresy around here

I hope you brought your asbestos suit.

[huckleberry]

15. some posting advice --

You should've made this clear that this was not your opinion, but an article from the Washington Post Outlook section, which is a Sunday opinion section, and that the author is Steve Rosenthal from America Coming Together (ACT). That would've saved you a few flames.

Just my $.02!

[righteous1]

16. I kinda thought it was self explanatory; but your

point is well taken

[Overseas]

18. You are in THE WRONG FORUM-- go to Campaign 2006-2008

I know you want to be special-- the one wise person who wants to help us silly people face the bitter truth that Kerry lost. Well, SORRY TO BURST YOUR BUBBLE, but there are hundreds of you in other forums. Go join them. We have heard your argument hundred of times. We have seen lots of articles and TV pundits doing the "Where the Dems went wrong," line.

THis is the place to find others who care about election fraud, and don't want it to be accepted as business as usual. We know that campaigns can get better and better while election fraud also gets more and more elaborate and widespread-- witness the evolution from 2000 to 2002 to 2004. We want the thousands of eyewitness reports to be investigated and disclosed to the public.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sideways]

21. Folks Remember The Alert Button Is Our Friend.

Just an FYI. :loveya:

[Carl Brennan]

22. Operant conditioning. nt

[stirringstill]

24. Not taking office = Losing

Why did Dems lose Ohio? If one assumes they lost Ohio, then the number one reason (not including theft) is (1) the media. When 70% of what people know comes from the TV, and the TV is slanted or out right pro-Bush and anti-Kerry / anti-Democrat, Dems will always lose most states. Radio is even worse than TV. Newspapers are a mixed bag but getting worse by the day. We need to create a competitive "reality-based" alternative to challenge the right and MSM while working to shatter media consolidation. (2) The Democratic Party has a platform and issues but a fuzzy vision. It needs to stake out a bold simple and inspiring vision and then sell it, which it can not do in the current media climate. It is impossible for most to criticize Kerry since most of us only knew him through hostile filters. (3) We need Federal oversight of all voting technology and fight for non-partisan control of the state elections. No more Harris's or Blackwells. We must establish standards for how states create and then control voter rolls, and as for voting, I prefer paper ballots and handcounts in public. It may take a week, so be it. Ballot stuffing and the like will occur but the damage will be likely limited in scope. Touch screens should be banned--paper trail or not. A paper trail is only good if one suspects fraud and even then a manual count can be stymied in multiple ways (ie conservative judges). Touch screens and punch ballots should be banned. Scanning of paper ballots could be a compromise, but any technological filter for scoring a voters intent is dangerous and should be avoided. All technology should be open for public scrutiny. All software should be open source. The reporting of votes election night and exit polling must be taken out of the hands of private companies.

Kerry and Gore both should have one by landslides but didn't become president because of the media and criminal elections.

[Razorback_Democrat]

27. It ain't over until it's over!

and that is January 6!

[libmeayer]

40. You mean the Republican

congress electing John Kerry for President.

[righteous1]

30. All good points n/t

[LisaL]

25. Voter suppression, at least in part.

There were not enough voting machines. That caused long lines. The weather was bad, it rained. Not many people are going to wait for hours and hours so they can vote. Long lines and less machines, in democratic strongholds, while rural Ohioans had a lot more machines.

[leftyandproud]

29. DON'T piss off the conspiracy nuts!

It aint gonna get pretty...They are still rabid about this...can't accept reality...not yet.

[righteous1]

31. Yes, I have taken a lot more heat for posting this article

than I had anticipated. I thought it really made some interesting points and coming from the person responsible for Ohio GOTV lent it credibility

[Snivi Yllom]

50. it's healthy that some people get pissed off and rage

Maybe they will finally accept there was no widespread organized conspiracy to steal the election. It's obvious that among 120 million voters there would be some isolated glitches.

There has been no evidence of a stolen election shown nor will there be any evidence shown. People will offer incredible theories and bizarre pointless statictics to try to mask the truth they don't want to hear.

The sooner this is put to bed the sooner thoughtful introspection and analysis of why Kerry lost can begin. And that analysis is not to be limited to Ohio.

[Joe Chi Minh]

33. you never give up

giving up do you? Get over it...

The integrity of national elections are paramount in any developed country; and that means counting the votes and countering any significant impact of fraud discovered.

[mod mom]

36. Don't concede for us-WE WON OHIO!

[libmeayer]

41. Absolutely.

[Chelsea Patriot]

37. How did I know the creator of this thread has less then 500 posts?

Before even clicking into it?

Hey, Miss righteous1, your slip's showing!

[righteous1]

38. As is your superficiality, and btw those in glass houses....n/t

[libmeayer]

42. Oh Please.

This guy has no clue. Kerry won Ohio, all right! He won Ohio, period.

[Donailin]

45. because it was stolen.

geeze.

I don't see how anyone can conclude otherwise unless they haven't paid enough attention or they really don't want to believe that it was stolen.

[bones_7672]

48. kick