I'm over it

[tcfrogs]

There is no way that Kerry won this election. Disputed ballots, long election lines, Diebold, etc., won't convince me. He didn't win. The margin was so large that I can't possibly believe that any conspiracies made a difference in the overall and electoral totals.

Flame away...

[alittlelark]

1. uh, yeah ...... n/t

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

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[tcfrogs]

24. Just being a realist

And EVERTHING I've read on-line and elsewhere doesn't convince me that there are enough votes to overturn the election.

[New Earth]

2. no reason to flame

if you're over it, then be over it. no one is going to convince eachother to change their minds. :)

[whirlygigspin]

12. better luck next time?

Empires get emperors, not elections, enjoy.

[ClintCooper2003]

3. It's quite possible Bush won the popular vote and Kerry, the electoral.

[smartvoter]

13. And if there was fraud, who knows?

I'm not going to flame the poster here, but I do think one of the arguments that doesn't fly is that even if there was fraud, it wasn't enough to tip the election. There's no basis for the position -- it's an unknown. It's two separate questions: Was there fraud? If so, how much?

However, everyone has a right to use his/her mind as he/she sees fit. And to speak it, too.

[renate]

37. yeah, exactly

If there was fraud, this election is null and void.
This is still America. On paper, at least, it's a democracy. One person, one vote.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[tcfrogs]

9. Thanks, but that was my feeling all along

Just had the inspiration (and finally internet access) to express my opinion.

[thjay]

5. why waste your time here then?

[smartvoter]

6. Hey, we're all independent thinkers.

I don't see it your way but I sure know what it's like when you take an unpopular position around here. Good for you.

[Spiffarino]

7. Good for you.

Glad you're happy. I'm going to march.

[tuvor]

8. You imply that you're open to the idea that there were conspiracies.

Whoever won, that needs to be dealt with, right?

You do care whether your vote counts in 2006 and 2008, right?

[sepia_steel]

10. I guess

our vote just doesn't count anymore. But that's fine, huh?

[tcfrogs]

11. Nope, just saying

that there are MANY conspiracy theories around here...

[tritsofme]

14. I agree with you

But I just hope you brought your asbestos suit along.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

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[tritsofme]

25. How many rank and file Democrats do you think believe these conspiracy

theories?

My guess? A very small minority.

Most Democrats have moved on and are ready to fight another day, its only a fringe minority of conspiracy theorists that refuse to accept reality.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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[Mastiff]

34. 20% of your fellow Americans don't trust the election results

According to polls, 20% of Americans don't trust these election results. That is pretty more than just "fringe minority of conspiracy theorists". I don't trust these election results because of the exit poll discrepancy. Exit polls are the check on the fairness of an election. This discrepancy needs to be explained.

Edit: Incidentally, I am a Republican, not a Democrat.

[tritsofme]

40. I have not seen a poll that says 20%

of voters think the election was stolen.

I would love to see a source, because if true that number would be quite startling.

[thanatonautos]

42. The 20% number has been around a while ... I've heard it too.

Poll

This one seems to have 13% saying the election was stolen,
16% saying the election was not conducted fairly, and 23% saying
there were some attempts to intimidate or prevent legitimate
voters from voting.

It's not just a fringe group, and the percentage who
are suspicious is far higher among Democrats.

[pipes]

61. Better not even look into it then....

Conspiracy theories? You mean like the fact that we can't check on whether or not our vote was recorded? Or how about the fact that 80% of our votes are counted by companies with ties to the Christian Coalition?

Ah, never mind, you are right, our democracy isn't important....in fact, I could care less whether my vote is counted....I always wanted to know what it was like to live in a country that isn't free...I guess I now know what it is like to not know whether or not my vote was really counted correctly!

Ah but who really cares, it isn't like we are the most powerfully free country in the world, why in the hell would we want accountability and transparency in an election? I mean if the govt says so it is right? Right? Like when they said Iraq had WMD and they were all pointed at us....or maybe that half of the GOP supporters believed that Iraqis were the ones flying planes into our buildings on 9/11.

Who really cares about the truth? We do not need truth, we have **sh as our leader, that is all we need to care about, he will protect us, and make sure that the devil does not live in the USA, I feel so much better knowing that I will be safe and free from evil because he is our leader.

Anyone have a few hundred bucks, I would like to get one of those iconic billboards that proclaim our leader

Sorry, had to do it, if you are over it then fine, giddy up...and leave the real work to the people who care!

[reality_bites]

51. That's right !

Lets start calling everyone who disagrees with us a republican !!

[Name removed]

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[MarkusQ]

17. Large margins do not a convincing argument make

I'll not dispute your conclusion (though I'm not myself convinced of it) but I must point out what I believe to be a flaw in your logic.

The margin was so large that I can't possibly believe that any conspiracies made a difference in the overall and electoral totals.

If that were true, the larger the margin the less likely that fraud was a deciding factor, you should be even more convinced if Bush had one by a billion votes. And by the same logic, a margin of 999,999,999,999,999 votes (several times the total world population) would be so convincing as to quell all doubt.

Either that, or your logic is flawed.

--MarkusQ

[tuvor]

Well, I'm sure that george bush senior

would be damned if he was gonna pay for his son to win in a landslide.

[Kurovski]

39. Someone on DU mentioned that the American Revolution

was planned by less than 20% percent of the American people.

George & Dick's takeover has only 20% behind it, Probably less.

This is the counter-revolution going on here.

We've had it here in America with the Right Wing revolution. Republicans, Dems, Greens, and Libertarians alike.

That in itself seems to defy logic. It's a new day in America, and it's gonna go way beyond Reagan's "morning in America."

Logic? I really don't give a shit about it right now. The runaway Right Wing has won every inch of ground based on emotion and perception and theft.

Please forgive me, but I REALLY, REALLY don't give a shit about logic tonight.

[MarkusQ]

47. If you want to win, you should

The runaway Right Wing has won every inch of ground based on emotion and perception and theft.

Please forgive me, but I REALLY, REALLY don't give a shit about logic tonight.

They've won by getting people to react emotionally and ignore logic, and as a consequence you want to ignore logic?

Pardon me if I stick to logic and truth, the only tools we have to defeat liars and demagogues.

--MarkusQ

[Kurovski]

62. That was last night --or "tonight", as I qualified it.

I was addressing the rash of disruptors who repeatedly challenged our rationality last night, even in the face of(or because of) mounting evidence revealing how corrupt the election was.

So I just thought I'd pull a double George W.

I apologise to you as I misunderstood your post. Forgiveness, please.

I'm an idiot, but I'm now back to at least attempting logical thought.

[reality_bites]

52. Anyone have good french or german contacts ?

We're going to need weapons and stuff like that.

[Kurovski]

63. I'm just talking about shooting off our mouths,

Mr. Mellowleaf. :-)

[txindy]

19. Does the phrase "Gig 'em" carry any significance for you?

I'm just sayin'.

Anyone willing to be a Horned Frog is probably used to being flamed. Great mascot. Really.

[tcfrogs]

22. That's the kindest response I've heard yet

And you're one of the few who put together the TCU connection.

[txindy]

31. Very few in Texas would miss that connection

If you think the theories are overwhelming now, wait until the focus shifts to this state. And it will.

But, maybe I'm just very positive tonight because my team is going to the Rose Bowl.

[tcfrogs]

35. Happy for the Horns

Wish y'all could beat OU one of these years though :)

[txindy]

44. That would be kinda nice

I remember when we used to do that on a regular basis - even when they were ranked and we were 're-building' under McWilliams and then Mackovic. It used to just about kill them to lose to the likes of us back then. Now, though.... :shrug: Hey, 12-0 this year turned out to be a pretty good score against the Sooners. It should be a great Orange Bowl, although the Rose Bowl will be better. ;)

[ahyums]

20. you may well be right

all the same I don't think 3.5 million or whatever it is right now is that big a margin in the big picture, as far as I'm concerned anyway it remains perfectly plausible that it was not legitimately gained. I don't think the margin alone is enough to convince me nothing will change, it would need to have been a fair bit higher to have done that.

[nashville_brook]

21. do you like it, being flamed?

what are you wearing?

[TaleWgnDg]

23. Uuuummmmm, that's what Kerry said . . . in essence . . .

exactly what he said. "I didn't win." "There's no doubt that even if there was a recount, I still wouldn't win." Yup. He made a statement very much like that on the morning following the election at about 10:00 AM or so when he conceded.

Hey. When a guy works his ass off for more than 2 years. Twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, sometimes without sleep . . . and he's got thousands of people giving him advice from all over including the best legal advice available, do you truly think he'd back out w/o knowing what's what? Of course not. He's a bright guy. A lawyer who's actually practiced law on a daily basis. No wallflower is this guy.

I like Kerry. He's my U.S. Senator. Am damn glad to have him representing me down in D.C.

Ya. I got over it long ago. And others should too. I've been around the block too damn many times in politics to know that there's always another day.

Nobody ever said that politics was pretty.



. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


edited to correct minor typo.


.

[Old and In the Way]

41. Kerry's quick exit forced us to get involved.

Remember how we all sat on our thumbs waiting for Gore to win by himself? I think Kerry decided that it was time we drove the change. Clearly, we have a stake in this loss as much as Kerry. And I think the outrage/activism on this issue is growing by the day. The DU is exposing a lot of the fraWd mechanics and the word is getting out...no thanks to the corporate media.

This election is far from over...

[Mastiff]

26. I'm not over it. I'll never be over it.

If 65,000 votes were flipped from Kerry to Bush, there is your election. What makes you think this is impossible? The exit polls at 1AM showed that Kerry had the lead in Ohio. Those numbers were later modified to reflect the actual result, even though it was mathematically impossible to get the revised figures. Bush is claiming the Ukraine government committed fraud based on similar exit poll data and reported voter irregularities. Why does this apply to Ukraine and not Ohio?
There were deliberate voter suppression efforts in the Black and College precincts that could well have cost Kerry the votes needed to win. Some polling sites were still voting ar 3:30 AM. It is quite possible enough people didn't vote because of these long lead times. The Republican areas had plenty of machines. It was the Democratic areas that got stiffed.

[tcfrogs]

36. Exit Polls

I'm firmly of the belief that MY VOTE is personal. I believe that most people, when they exit the polls, don't care to share their vote with some "exit" poller. I've heard that same explanation from a few different polling agencies (Zogby for one in particular) and I trust that answer.

[Erika]

27. Why Did You Need to post this?

Many of us feel this is election theft #2.

[AgadorSparticus]

32. that's a damn GOOD question. why post this? it's not like this sentiment

hasn't been beaten to death.

[tcfrogs]

33. Because that's what I feel

Sorry, Erika, that's my feeling.

[Kurovski]

28. Carry on

my wayward son.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

29. So, what's your point?

[Matilda]

38. Well, by your reasoning, Saddam Hussein was a legitimately elected

leader.

He used to win by about 98%.

Besides, what counts is the electoral votes, and no matter the margin
of the popular vote really went to Bush, all Kerry needed was those
crucial extra votes in Ohio. And if what we've heard about the
ability of Diebold to flip figures at any point in the election is
correct, you must admit at least the possibility that votes were
changed in Ohio when the Repubs saw how things were going there.

Edit: grammar

[thephaseshift]

43. Bush didn't win

Fraud happened for sure, we just don't know exactly how and in what proportions (how much was electronic? how much plain-Jane voter suppression?). I don't know if I would go so far as to say that Kerry won the popular vote, but I think it's very possible if it turns out that electronic vote-padding was going on in multiple locations.

But there's zero doubt in my mind that IF everyone who had gone out to vote on Nov 2 actually had voted, Kerry would be president. Thhe stories of democratic vote suppression are endless. And think about this: if X stories of anomalies are reported, in general many many more will still be unreported or unnoticed. So much shit went down on Nov 2nd in Bush's favor that it's simply naive to throw down the towel and say 'Bush won'.

[tngledwebb]

45. You got to flip the margin, dawg, u kno whut i'm sayin?

The voters turned out with a two million plus mandate for KAY REE, dawg. Kay-Ree won. Jon Kay Ree won.
Now don't worry, if you're over it, it won't make no nevermind, there'll be more 'con-spire-uh-cees' and recounts and diebold disputed ballots and investigations and whut-not, as long as it takes, until this country is ( more or less) free, and (small d) democratic once again. And it won't be long.

[ClassWarrior]

46. So go eat your bon-bons and watch your soaps...

...and leave the rest of us who are giving our democracy a fighting chance in peace.

NGU.

[righteous1]

49. Her opinion is just as valid as yours so why don't you show some

common courtesy and respect. She has just as much right here as you, maybe more. If you want rigidity of thought and expression, go to South Korea, you will fit right in

[righteous1]

48. I hope you wore your asbestos undies

your gonna need them

[Bread and Circus]

50. Sure, that was worth its own thread.

:eyes:

[Snivi Yllom]

53. I agree with you too

There is no evidence to back up the wild claims. I watched the Arnebeck C-span video and did not hear one shred of evidence to back up his claim. Not one tiny piece.

Were there some screwy votes in Ohio and the other 49 states? Is it surprising that in a record election turnout there would be screwups with 120 million voters? No system is perfect, and the desire to achieve a close to perfect with something as important as the right to vote and have your vote count is to be commended. However, relying on bizarre unproven theoriess of conspiracy and organized fraud to dismiss an election that was legally won is the wrong direction to take.

[unpossibles]

55. I can't understand how

"Is it surprising that in a record election turnout there would be screwups with 120 million voters? " is an acceptable answer for anyone.

120 million, which is close to half of the "mandate" and could flip the election depending on location, is not important? If your vote were among that number how would you feel?

Granted, errors and mistakes will happen, but in a close election like this, it can't hurt to look into this.

I look at it this way: although I think there was fraud, if you do not that is fine, but at least be open to the idea that it is possible, and even likely, and that the number Bullsh "won" by is instantly voided by doubt if there was foul play.

[Snivi Yllom]

57. There is a difference between investigating and overturning an election

without the facts. Arnebeck is not suing for a recount. He is suing to change the results of an election without and evidence other than some statistical analysis based on a flawed theory. I expect the judges to dismiss his suit promptly. Regardless of party I would be extremely uncomfortable to have an election overturned via a lawsuit. The thought of such a lawsuit being brought to court with such flimsy evidence scares the hell out of me.

If you are so certain there was fraud, what is the evidence that you base that conclusion on?

[SeekingDemocracy]

54. So go away for a month...

...and let the people here who believe continue to work hard and draw attention to the issue JUST IN CASE there is solid, election-altering evidence waiting to be uncovered.

Posting your feelings isn't helping anyone. If nothing is going to come of this we'll know in a month or so - but stop bothering people with weak-kneed posts like this. I have my moments of doubt and my moments of certainty that this thing was stolen, but I don't need to sabotage other people's efforts to AT LEAST HAVE A GO AT UNCOVERING THE TRUTH in order to vent my feelings.

[genieroze]

56. I'm glad you are over it, I'm not

There was fraud and the republicans are still bitching about Kennedy/Nixon fraud and dead people voting. Nixon still got his recounts, and it proved Kennedy won. That's not the point, the point was that there was most likely shenanigans going on. That tainted Kennedy and if he participated, he deserved that taint. That's the point here. It's not about Kerry/Bush, it's about fraud. I don't know just how massive this fraud is, if it was enough to give Kerry the popular vote or just the electoral college. Maybe this fraud put some Congressmen, Mayors, Governors, Councilmen and Senators in office that don't deserve to be there. That's the point. We need election reform and the scumbags to manipulated this election whether they be Dem or Pubs need to be called on it.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pauldp]

59. I don't give a rat's ass what you or anyone else "believes"

I'm sick of all of this talk of "I believe this and I believe that".
The facts have nothing to do with belief. Belief implies some ossified view of reality that is resistant to change. This is an evolving situation that needs to be constantly re-assesed.

The statistical evidence provided by the Berkley Quantitative Methods Research Team as well as the analysis by Dr. Steve Freeman of U Penn and many others, including some here at DU, clearly indicates that massive fraud (potentially millions of votes) is a logical and unavoidable hypothesis.

The difference between belief and understanding is fundamental, yet too often people confuse them as one in the same. I'll go with understanding everytime.

[rucky]

60. So let's investigate so we can all be "over it" n/t

[IAMREALITY]

64. My Response

Can be found here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x122739

[malatesta1137]

65. I'll never be over it

If you believe the margin was large, you are easy to be fooled. That's what the Repugs did, stole it big so no one would dispute it.

Computers made voter fraud very simple.

What I AM over is the fact that Kerry was not the man for the job. He's not a fighter, he's a coward. We were conned.