Keith O on MSNBC NOW- said he is going to discuss----

[Karenca]

the Ohio problem, said something like "more than just a recount?"

[Karenca]

1. "let the 2004 recount begin"

Official tonight-----

[sepia_steel]

2. GRRRR

Damn you, Mitofsky(sp?)

[Karenca]

3. my thoughts exactly :(( nt

[rodeodance]

4. "raw data" from the exit polls will not be provided as requested by

Conyers. He had written a letter to the person (did not catch it) of the exit polls and the response was that it was "propriotory" . private company!!!!! We have outsoursed our elections.

[musette_sf]

5. Oh BS

yeah right it's proprietary. okay, so my taxes paid for it, so hand it over.

[bemis12]

11. News organizations paid for it

[rodeodance]

it used to be that the networks (abc etc.) did separte polls but now they

all contract the same company (the one KO talked about tonight). sorry but I forgot the of the company/CEO.

[jamboi]

15. Actually I don't think our tax $$ did pay for it, so technically(not moral

ly) but technically I think he's correct. It looks like its going to take more pressure on him to pop those numbers loose. It could work in our favor though because it may put more of a spotlight on Curtis.

[rodeodance]

17. yes--the networks/cable news pays for the polling.

[reality_bites]

48. Actually, your taxes did not pay for it n/t

[musette_sf]

70. Yeah, you guys are right

At the time of my post I had just come back from the team X-mas party and was a tad bit in the bag. Wasn't critically thinking. Yes, you are right, it is the news orgs etc. But geez, it hacks me to see tax money being spent to DISPROVE the exit polls.

And Mr. Blackwell should stick to snarky wardrobe commentary. (OH if only it were all that simple....)

[Karenca]

7. such bullshit, such blatant lies, fraud----

i cant stand it..uuuuuuggggggghhhhhlkkkkkkkkk!!!

[rodeodance]

heard that Blackwell will NOT respond to Conyers letter either.

[Clark2008]

16. Where did you hear this?

Because I'd like to A.) See the link and B.) See what law he's using to skirt his official responsibility.

[rodeodance]

20. it was on the DU board (someplace)---that Blackwell will not write a

response letter--earlier this afternoon.

[Twist_U_Up]

28. Olberman said it n/t

[Clark2008]

37. Thanks.

I tend to miss a few minutes of Keith around 8:30ish or there-abouts when I'm getting my kid out of the tub.

Did Keith say why Katherine Blackwell was refusing to do his official duty and answer questions regarding the vote count?

[merh]

30. The matter tomorrow is a forum, not a congressional hearing.

as the repukes control the house, they have not intention in calling for a hearing. Since it is not a congressional sanctioned hearing, the body has no subpoena powers. Blackwell does not have to appear.

[bones_7672]

66. Blackwell does not have to respond.

1. He does not work for congress, he works for the great State of Ohio.

2. Conyer's letter has no offical weight, it was not an official action of the congressional committee.

[ElementaryPenguin]

71. If he is subpoenaed - he WILL have to respond!!

Even from that "great" state of his!

[bones_7672]

72. Yes, but what do you think the chances are

of him being supoenaed by the Committee. Conyers and the other Dems on the committee cannot do anything by themselves in this regard.

[ElementaryPenguin]

76. Not by the committe, but by the other lawsuits filed.

There's no getting around it!

[The Backlash Cometh]

8. This is what privatization is really all about.

Allows the Republicans to act like the mob. You think this is bad? Wait until they privatize the IRS.

[genieroze]

22. I bet they will only harass registered Democrats. eom

[The Backlash Cometh]

64. It seems to be the pattern.

They use the rules only against Dems.

They got Martha Stewart over a matter that Repubs are guilty of 1000X's over.

They got someone else in Miami who's a Dem and stands accused on five counts of coercing others to vote for a local Dem. While Volusia is guilty of far worse.

[reality_bites]

49. What was privatized ?

Exit polls have never been conducted by the US govt.

[The Backlash Cometh]

65. Hiding public information. That's what I'm referring to.

I've encountered it on my public records searchs many years ago. The city would bury their lawsuit information with private law firms, or with their insurance company. Any request for information under the Public Records Law would be returned with a response that because they were a private company they didn't have to answer to Public Records request. It's not true, but the process slows you down considerably as you get attorneys and others involved.

The polling company only illustrated the problem. I wasn't commenting on its legal obligations to the public in making its records transparent; though, these things can be resolved in court if it's deemed there is a public interest.

[txindy]

69. Mitofsky will be subpoenaed when the lawsuits are resolved

He'll have no choice but to furnish the raw data. He'll be relieved of all responsibility for providing it, although, should it be shown that the raw data does not match the reported results, he'll be in very deep, very hot water. That's when he'll rat out his handler in the GOP. No way will he be the one to take the fall for this. He'll squeal like a pig.

[ElementaryPenguin]

75. Exactly, txindy! The exit poll data will HAVE to be produced!

It won't be fucking optional in a lawsuit!

[liberal43110]

77. Privatization

Yes, that the new organizations pay for the exit polls is essentially privatization of an essential public function.

[Eric J in MN]

9. The DNC should do its own Exit Polls. So should MoveOn.org. (NT)

NT

[ClintCooper2003]

43. The Dems did do their own exit polls - it was posted on Americablog.org

... maybe they'll repost it if we ask them.

[Eric J in MN]

73. What did the Democratic Exit Polls show? NT

NT

[ClintCooper2003]

74. The Dems' exit polls showed Kerry leading by 4 points in Florida, and

leading by a lot in other states as well.

[Eric J in MN]

78. Even at the time the polls closed? (NT)

NT

[ClintCooper2003]

81. Well, I'm not exactly sure, but I know that it wasn't posted on...

AmericaBlog.org until at least 6 p.m. Eastern time. So I know it was one of the later exit polls.

Anybody want to help me start an exit poll firm?

[Eric J in MN]

87. Have you ever run a company? NT

NT

[Clark2008]

14. Have exit polls ever been

public? I don't think so.

However, in the spirit of democracy, the companies who paid to have the exit polling done, should relent and allow Mitofsky to release the raw data.

If not, we push for a full House hearing where they have subpeona power.

I'm writing the two Tennessee Republicans on the House Judiciary Committee and shaming them into participating in this investigation. I think we should all write the members from our states who are both Republicans and on the House Judiciary Committee.

Keep the pressure up.

[understandinglife]

26. The more Mitofsky and Blackwell resist, the bigger this story ....

....is going to get.

Tomorrow will be the day that many, many more, who have not been participating in the discussion during the past 4 weeks, will begin to learn of the Constitutional crisis of 2 Nov 2004 and the fact that we are facing a serious threat to that Constitution at a time when we are also at war.

Rather ironic that tomorrow is the 43rd anniversary of the US declaring war on Japan and that now we are once again confronting a real enemy, the one we have faced since Nov 2000 (and it's not Iraq).

Interesting times ahead.

Peace.

"Did Bush Know?"

[knowbody0]

27. their resistance purely implies guilt

[Straight Shooter]

31. They would accuse us if the shoe were on the other foot.

Mr. Mitofsky has something to hide. Hell, they ALL have something to hide.

[reality_bites]

55. Resistance isn't exatly the right word...

They have a contract with their customers (MSM.) They are, in effect, saying the numbers are proprietary and can't be released without permission. Are they lying about this ? I don't know. If they are telling the truth, then they are doing the only thing they can legally do - holding back the data. it may not be up to them. Once the customer (MSM) pays for the exit polls, the data belongs to MSM, not the guys who did the poll. It's up to MSM to relase the data.

[reality_bites]

54. I wouldn't characterize it as resistance...

They have a contract with their customers (MSM.) They are, in effect, saying the numbers are proprietary and can't be released without permission. Are they lying about this ? I don't know. If they are telling the truth, then they are doing the only thing they can legally do - holding back the data.

[Peace Patriot]

32. You should cite the evidence that Repub. votes were stolen...

See

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x121455

It's part of the Arnebeck lawsuit: Analysis that shows Republican votes for Kerry were stolen and given to Bush in 3 Ohio counties. (Note also: Arnebeck, the lead attorney for the Alliance for Democracy lawsuit in Ohio is himself a Republican.)

Emphasize that these Republicans who voted for Kerry--a phenomenon that is believed to be widespread--were probably for the most part REAL conservatives who object to Bush's radical foreign policy, to the unjustified war in Iraq, to his wild irresponsible federal deficit, to his radical social policy, to his mixing government and religion in violation of the Constitution, to his war on the environment, and to many other un-conservative, and un-traditional Republican views and policies.

[Stand and Fight]

50. No.

Former Republican.

[Wordie]

39. I really would like to see that data too, but I think I may understand why

Mitofsky may not want to release it. The method that the different companies use to calculate the results of those polls is proprietary. If he releases it, it would be like releasing the "secret recipe" for a dish that is what makes a restaurant so popular. He would be giving away the thing that makes his company profitable. Any of the other companies that he competes with, would know his calculation method, and so he would lose business, maybe he would have to go out of business. So, his reasons for not wanting to release it may not be entirely nefarious. (Note that I am not entirely convinced that the exit polls were as serious a problem as I know many others here think. BUT that doesn't mean I don't think there were LOTS of other problems that interferred with people's voting rights.)

[pgh_dem]

42. It's an OK analogy, but...

Isn't this a little more like a restaurant that keeps burning its only dish, which it sells for exorbitant prices?
Who even wants the recipe for 'Election Screw-up Flambeau'?
Why do the networks keep ordering it?

[Scout1071]

44. More like

a restaurant that keeps making people sick that won't let the health inspector in to take a look around.

[ParanoidPat]

46. 'Election Screw-up Flambeau' LOL!

Very well put and way too true! :evilgrin:

Thanks, I needed a good laugh. :hi:

[Wordie]

63. haha...I'll take two of those and hold the Freedom Fries!

[Wordie]

62. Maybe because it so fascinates us that over a month later, we still are

discussing it! :)

On a more sober note, I think there is a place for the polls. I just think that there should be a period of maybe as long as a few days before the actual election, and certainly all day long election day, where the results are not made known. Call it censorship if you like, but it would be better for everyone if we weren't thinking about them or hearing about them while we voted.

[KoKo]

51. what's shocking is that years ago a Senator would be treated with respect.

These days any Democratic Senator can write letters till the cows come home and be ignored. Just like the Chimp Administration. They never answer anything.

But when a Democrat is President they are called on the carpet by members of both of their parties.

Senators on the judiciary committee whether they are in the minority or the majority should be treated with respect by private citizens.

This whole country is run by lawless thugs. And as Senator Byrd said about the vote for Iraq War Resolution..."We've given up our power and we might as well hang out a sign 'Gone Fishing!'"

[bones_7672]

67. FYI Conyers is a representative. n/t

[Zan_of_Texas]

6. A revote would be more appropriate.

All those people waiting in line 6 hours, some even 12 hours, to vote. I even heard they changed some polling places in Ohio from large places where people could be indoors, to small places where they would be waiting outside in the rain.

That is just wrong. If this is the work of a majority that's moral, I'm Paul Bunyan.

[Karenca]

13. A revote is what we need in Ohio, like we're ever going to get one

i am so burning mad right now....help calm me down.

[operafred]

18. re-vote yes

i've been saying that many times

here's an interesting link about exactly that:

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/11/con04517.html

please spread the word

[bones_7672]

68. While you are pushing for a re-vote ...

... will you please push for a personal tropical island for every citizen also? Both have the same chance of happening, so let's go for both!

[Im with Rosey]

21. okay, I might be wrong...

if the data gathered in the polls of election night belongs to media outlets, why can't someone (Conyers, Madsen, etc) get a media outlet to release the data? Would'nt that data be the same? If this a$$ is going to refuse to turn over the info, then we need to find another way to get it!

[rodeodance]

25. Conyers is an Ad Hoc committee--so can not superna anyone--Repugs

could if the whole Judiciary committe would meet. As it is -tomorrow only the Dems on the committee are meeting. No Republican will attend.
Sad state of affairs we are in!!!!

[Zan_of_Texas]

34. Ha, maybe we should wonder why Rep. Feeney will not be there.

of Florida? He is on the Judiciary Committee.

Maybe Olbermann should ask him why he's not coming.

[truehawk]

29. They were going to sell it to Althecat for $750. 00 per state

Lets Just buy it for crist sake!!!!

In fact I left messages in threads to Al that we shoud buy Oh, NC, Mo for starters.

[senegal1]

58. I agree I left the same messages -- for heavens sake if we can

fund the entire Ohio recount and then get the Washington recount funded too we can certaintly manage to buy the damn data. How hard could this be? They said $10,000 for the whole lot. Lets do it!

[99Pancakes]

24. There needs to be something written

into their state law that says "more polling places and/or transportation to other polling places, are to be made available for waits over an hour."

Would you have waited more than 2-3 hours?! How about eight? Can you believe they allowed that?!
:mad:

[jsascj]

10. No Mitofsky exit polls.

BUMMER! But no great surprise.

[rodeodance]

23. Here is some info about Mitofsky

http://fpc.state.gov/fpc/37918.htm

[ClintCooper2003]

41. Mitofsky is a lying sack of S**T!!!!

[ClintCooper2003]

45. An excerpt would be helpful. Thanks. :) n/t

[Jo March]

12. For those of us not around a TV, can you keep us posted?

Thanks!

[rodeodance]

19. KO said --it was what changed the election in the Ukranine--was it the

exit polls he was talking about (he trailed toward the end of the segment and I did not catch it all)

[Peace Patriot]

36. Yes,

...it was the Exit Polls, which are used worldwide to verify elections, and are highly respected as non-partisan checks on election fraud.

The people in the Ukraine had the facts before them: The Exit polls vs. the official tallied "results," and they could see plain as day that something was very wrong.

The people in the US however were denied this information by our TV networks, which began mixing the rightwing Republican-controlled electronic vote tabulation machine "results" into the Exit Poll data, sometime between 4 pm and 6 pm on Election day, thus hiding the big Kerry numbers in the Exit Polls.

Things would have been far different here if people could have seen the two sets of data side by side, so at variance (as statisticians have since been able to show, for the portions of the pure Exit Poll data that were retrieved).

It is one of the most disastrous and disgusting failures of journalism that I have ever seen--the leadup to the Iraq war and 9/11 being the others.

This one convinces me that we are dealing with outright, direct collusion between Bush Inc. and major media--not just a mixed bag of corporate war profiteering, partisanship, a few stabs at good journalism, a bad addiction to "sensational" stories, the need for "access" at the White House, and so on.

There is simply no excuse for what they did--and for failing to report it with the seriousness that it deserves, now.

[rodeodance]

47. thanks--your explanation was really helpful

[Carolab]

40. We should ask Keith if MSNBC can get them then

They are a news organization, they were "subscribers", right? Then they should/could request them. Anyone want to ask Keith? I just e-mailed him and asked if MSNBC could get the raw data to Conyers, preferably before/during the hearing.

[mikelewis]

33. Here's a Trick Rush Limbaugh taught me-- let's bury his site!

Whenever a site pops up that goes against his "ethical morality" he send his listeners to soak up all the bandwidth and bombard them with e-mails.

Let's turn the tide and cyber attack mitosky. Send email after emial asking for the release, about 2 per hour should do it.

[s-cubed]

35. Couldn't the raw exit poll data be subpeoned (sp)

in a court case, if it directly related to the issue, like Arnebeck.

[Clark2008]

38. Yes

I'm not an attorney, but I covered courts for years as a reporter.

If a judge rules that the issue is directly relevant to the case, then a subpeona can be issued.

The only way to crack the Republican, anti-democratic (small "d") Congress is by way of the courts. Still, it will get appealled all the way up so that the Supremes can do their GOPher magic, but the people will know about it then.

Hell, if the MSM doesn't cover it at that level, then I'm afraid we've lost our democracy, folks.

[RocktheStatusQuo]

56. Call Mitofsky and ask him! His phone number is listed! NYC

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RocktheStatusQuo]

53. Yes, that's my first post, but I used to write under a different name...

and I don't want to get myself into trouble.

[reality_bites]

57. Come on people...

MSM paid Mitofsky to conduct a exit poll.

When you buy socks, who owns the socks ? You, or the person who made them ? You do.

When MSM pays Mitofsky for an exit poll. Who owns the data ? MSM ot Mitofsky ? MSM does.

In their refusal memo to Conyers, they explain, in effect, that they don't own the numbers. The data belongs to MSM.

[senegal1]

60. pardon me but I don't have tv -- is the post above which is from

Peace Patriot (I think) is that what Olbermann said on TV???? or is that Peace's opinion? I am a bit confused and don't have access.

[proudtobeadem]

61. I'm pretty sure peace patriot said that

I also don't have cable

[crispini]

59. LOL, "Blame Canada" at the end of the broadcast.

And of course, obligatory floaty hearts which I am required to add every time I post to a thread about KO: :loveya:



:evilgrin:

[Karenca]

79. His report on Rumsfeld was derogatory----I love Keith nt

[rodeodance]

80. KO that a Sr. member of congress will bring the values debate to OHIO

I am on central time here--it just started for me--now he in break.

[CornField]

82. It's #3 on the countdown

He led with Conyer's "we will now" comment.

[rodeodance]

85. Repubs confident that Blackwell ran a fair election--repubs were asked

about the forum today--of course they did not show up. But while they did not show at the meeting, they did speak out in the interviews for KO show. Republican (some blonde women) said that there were not enough ghost vots etc to anyone else but Bush win.

[Karenca]

83. H. Dean: 51% is not a mandate, and they're not getting away with it!" nt

[fearnobush]

84. Dean Rocks!!!!

Give that man a Chairmanship.

[rodeodance]

86. just discovered that we are on the thread from yesterday's KO show-

Oh well,