GROUNDS to OVERTURN the election in OHIO

[k8conant]

The mixup of ballots in Cuyahoga County has been postulated by many of us (including jmknapp and me). We were right.

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1102674912293811.xml

Now the Cleveland Plain Dealer has acknowledged the reasons: voters were sent to the wrong machines and marked their ballots according to the ballot order in another precinct which was then tallied (wrongly) in their own precinct.

It does not matter if the Plain Dealer says " the numbers appear small and the incidents relatively few".

It does not matter if "a close look at the results highlights mistakes, not malice".

It does matter that the election is invalid because of this.

It's time to overturn the election in Ohio

[The Backlash Cometh]

1. kicking like a wild stallion

[catgirl]

3. How do we go about this? Citizen action...

What will it take? Citizen action with the help of lawyers. PETITIONS? Someone in Ohio needs to get on the ball. I'll post something in Ohio folder. Everyone- get out to your state capitol for the protest Sunday (tomorrow)! Bring signs and raise hell.

[henslee]

43. kicking like a wild mustang running guys trying to kill me for my meat.

[EMunster]

2. a little more clarity...are you saying the mixed up ballots ARE....

grounds to overturn the election, or are you just postulating that?

And if postulating, what's your case (or refer me to the link where you discussed it).

Thanks

[read the law first]

31. emunster HAS been following this carefully. good job.

Emunster, you've been paying attention and absorbing information quickly. Good job. People have probably told you before that you have a photographic memory. That's a sign of someone who incorporates information quickly.

[november3rd]

4. yeah. invalid is invalid

how much bs are we supposed to put up with?

[catgirl]

7. Mixed up ballots weren't counted

There are complaints that voters were told to go to any table. Of course the tables were for different precincts. THESE voters should sue ASAP. This is beyond fraud, it's criminal. This alone should bring on a revote since not all votes were counted. Blackwell fought like mad to disallow voting in the wrong precinct. I think we can guess why.

[EMunster]

5. explain?

[mackdaddy]

6. Those Votes Are as Lost as the Ones in NC

That kind of mix up by the Official Poll Judges makes those votes as lost and un-readable as the votes lost in the NC county where they had to have a re-vote. Un-fortunately it was only a couple of local races that were re-voted.

Every Polling place with more than one precinct in Ohio should probably be examined now. This kind of error could be way more than the margin between the two candidates state wide.

[catgirl]

8. Mix-up or intentional justifies a revote

Intentional is criminal...Mix-up is a failure of the elections officials and also warrants a revote. The bottom line is, americans were robbed of their fundamental right to vote in an election.

[EMunster]

11. You want to see intentional...see this morning Akron Beacon....

in another thread...vote machine manipulation -- Directly ties in Blackwell...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x140512

[k8conant]

9. What is Arnebeck's email address?

I want to send this to him.

[jamboi]

41. Arnebeck's e-mail

I'll PM it to you..

[DoYouEverWonder]

10. So far in every place that a recount has been done

Human errors were found. The amazing thing is that almost all of these human errors favored Bush. Human error is random, fraud is not.

The only time a recount is done is when a race is split by usually less than 1%. That means very few place ever get counted a second time and this is the problem.

Standard accounting practice throughout the business world is to count everything twice. The only place in the country that we don't require this is in our elections. We count once and that's it. On this basis it is impossible to verify who won anything. It is not a valid election.

[Poppyseedman]

12. Sounds pretty screwed up

The State of Ohio needs to fix their voting problems. Being from Florida, it can be done. The only way Florida was rigged is if the voting machines were rigged, which I don't buy into that theory.

I'll get flamed for this comment but, I think the democratic party is wasting time and money in Ohio.

I do not see where Kerry can get enough additional votes to have this state election overturned. It would be a beautiful thing, but it is not reality.

All we are going to do is piss off the people of Ohio who are not political active that see this as needless meddling in their lives.

Nobody wants their state to be a laughingstock like Floriduh did four years ago. Part of 2004 was payback for 2000. At least I think so.

We need to move on to the future. Changing the past is an impossible task, influencing the future takes a lot of hard work to win back the hearts and minds of the people.

[catgirl]

13. Ohio DID "fix" their voting problems!!

Meddling in their lives? Are you for real? This is OUR election. It is our right to have a fair election and this wasn't a fair election. Democracy is at stake here. Who's side are you on anyway? Hmmm.

[Poppyseedman]

19. I certainly agree

we have a right to a fair election and the reality is, it wasn't as fair and clean as it should be.

Turning over the election is not going to happen for several very good reasons. Blackwell has the law on his side whether or not we like it.

That is for the people of the state of Ohio to change the law.

Elections are state functions and the SCOTUS is loathe to get involved in a state issues. I don't see the Ohio SC getting overturning the Blackwell certified election.

Remember in Florida the SCOTUS got involved because of the Florida SC ruling/

I live in Florida, and yes, there were many people upset that Florida was ridiculed and made fun of. I think those feeling come into play this year.

Not to underscore your concerns as well as mine, but democracy is not at stake here. The powers that be in this country has moved left to right several times and then back again to the left, it will swing back to us. That's why it's important to move forward.

I am on the side that wants to move forward to win back the congress and the senate. Hmmmm!

[marylanddem]

57. I don't personally care

What the people of Ohio think of me. Though I don't live in the state anymore, I have some land there & pay taxes there, & the officials in OHio have screwed with the entire nation if they've acted fraudulently. The dumb asses will remain dumb asses, but the enlightened people will become more enlightened as a result of what I hope will be incredible scrutiny of all the snarkey things that happened. We don't need to kiss up to Ohioans. During the campaign, I saw the warm reception John Edwards got in southern Ohio town of Portsmouth - part of Ohio's Appalachian area, where people are desperate for jobs and leaders who want their lives to improve. There was enthusiasm, Kerry signs all over the place.
Bush stole the election. It will be proven.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noclonyofthechimp]

24. BEING FROM FL myself! I find this "member's" post offensive!!!!!!!!

[Poppyseedman]

25. part of 2004 payback for 2000

I was speaking of Florida. I live here and can tell you people, not the political active, but regular people who vote because they feel it is a patriotic duty, were very pissed because Floriduh was a running joke.

The MSM media was the main culprit in the screw up calling Florida for Bush before the polls closed, but the majority of the legal wrangling was done by the democratic party which was the right thing to do, but people take that as meddling in their affairs.

To make my point about 2004 results, the repukes got one million more votes in 2004 verses 2000. The democratic party only got about 750,000 more votes.
I refuse to believe the repukes did a better job GOTV than we did.

I think the repukes were going to make sure 2000 didn't happen again, they came out in droves because of it.

I think the same thing will happen in Ohio in 2008 if the election goes to the courts

[EMunster]

16. If you don't see where Kerry can get the votes, it means you....

haven't been paying attention. If you really think having the vote overturned would be a good thing -- you'd know where those votes would come from.

Dissuaders are looked upon rather suspiciously, particularly uninformed dissuaders. You're essentially putting out a lot of energy to get people to stop doing something. And particularly right now? When a lot is happening?

Why?

[Poppyseedman]

22. Why?

because, I have been paying attention. To me the numbers don't add up. 118,000 votes are a lot of votes to overcome.

Why isn't the DNC and the party heavy weights jumping on this in a big way. Answer that?

It will take more than Jesse Jackson beating the drum to wake people up.

I know they have tossed a little money in to help, but if they really thought there was a chance to make it happen, I think we would see a full bown operation.

I'm all for overturning the Ohio results, I just think it's a waste of time and energy as well does the DNC by their inaction.

[Dr.Phool]

17. Florda can and probably did rig the machines!

I've worked on the voting machine task force for over a year, trying to get a verifiable paper trail on these machines. We took our findings to Bob Grahams staff, and he was so alarmed he immediately introduced legislation to require a paper trail. But, the Rethugs kept it bottled up in committee.

In Pasco County alone, we've got thousands of incident reports, from faulty machines to new last minute tabulating procedures, and nothing but stonewalling from SOE office.

[noclonyofthechimp]

23. He has not done any reading here, or anywhere else before he

posted what he did. If he does not want to do the work of reading and research before he posts something like what he did it is not worth your efforts to bring the info to him. For god's sake this web-site is full of highly intelligent members that are mathematicians, analysts, reporters, activists, Dr.'s, etc. with ample information that has been CAREFULLY RESEARCHED through hard work and dedication. Nobody posts without accurate data or they get their asses kicked. This poster isn't worth your time! BEING FROM FLORIDA MYSELF I find his post very unimportant on the larger scale of things!

[Poppyseedman]

29. I certainly agree that

the machines need paper trails. That is the one issue that does bother me.

Since you are on a task force. Can you give me some links where there is actually proof of machine fraud. I have read alot about accusations and theories, but nothing which is rock solid proof of fraud.

I'll love to see that and be proven wrong.

[noclonyofthechimp]

21. Before you make comments like "The only way Fl was rigged is if the

voting machines were rigged." You really should do some research in forum's here and other resources. You have thousands of absentee ballots unaccounted for in counties in South Florida. You have many many missing polling tapes in several precincts. I am not going to get into further detail with you regarding what is going on in Florida. While I can appreciate your statement about the future. The "past" IS OUR present. Again, you are very very wrong on your statement of FL.:think:

[Poppyseedman]

28. I live in Florida

and I was extremely concerned about this election. I though it would be rife with fraud and serious problems.

I looked thoroughly into the process and what safeguards were in place.

I have checked out other forums on the so called voting machine issues, I simply don't buy into them. At least not in Florida. Remember, I actually voted here.

Florida was not lost because of voting machine fraud. We lost Florida because we were out voted. The repukes were energized and the "Nixon silent majority" come out in droves. http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:aajYOwGwfg8J:www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/11/documents/nixon.speech/+Nixon+silent+majority&hl=en

[noclonyofthechimp]

30. You don't by into missing absentee ballots, missing polling tapes?

This was on the media before the election. The missing absentee ballots that is. You have a right to your opinion, but I would suggest you post in another forum.

[Poppyseedman]

35. There is a difference between

irregularities and the whole process being rigged.

I don't believe that any election will ever be irregular free, simply because people run the process.

That's why I believe the process is hard to manipulate or rig, people from all types of political persuasions are involved in the process.

I just don't think the election in Florida or in Ohio was rigged and high jacked.

Were there problems, probably. Once we fix one election problem we humans find ways to screw it a different way.

I guess I'm far too pragmatic about it.

[Boredtodeath]

36. Poppyseedman spouts all the talking points

Examples:
Get over it. The voters have spoken even though they can't prove what they said.

Show me proof. Proof has never been presented, all you have is coincidence.

We'll make it up in 2006. Get over this election and we'll fix it later.

There were problems but they were human error, not rigging.

So what that the SoS is a republican, you risk pissing off every voter who might vote for you.

Yeah, well, a few Africian American voters were disenfranchised, it happens in every election.

Folks these are all standard talking points of the voting machine companies and corrupt election officials. They want us to repeat what we did after the 2000 Florida debacle while they expand it to every state in the country. We have 2 choices - 1) let them get away with it AGAIN, or 2) stand and fight for the right to be a part of the political process. Choose your side.

[Poppyseedman]

37. Talking points????

I don't work for a voting machine company or am I a corrupt election official.

My view on this is really very simple. With the power structure as it is today. repugs running just about everything.

The only way we are going to affect and change the system and regain the power to actually change the process to make sure it is fair and legal is by winning at the grass roots.

We don't control congress, the White house, most state governments, we don't control hardly any of the power structures that influence positive change except for the some of the courts. That will go away also real soon, also.

They only way to make us the dominate political party again is to win local elections, state elections. Politics is a upward mobility structure.

[Boredtodeath]

38. Yes, talking points

And you come back with the one you hadn't used yet.

It's simple - we either allow a repeat of FL2000 or we stand and fight. We can see the result of following the "Get over it" mantra of 2000 - they created Florida2000 in multiple states in 2004 - Ohio, New Mexico, Nevada, Washington state, California.

Getting over it allows it to grow and fester. Democrats worked like hell to compensate for FL2000 in this election and it all failed because they perfected the way to disenfranchise, cheat and steal.

They perfected it because there was no price to pay for 2000.

Either they pay a price this time around or democracy is lost.

Those are our options. To suggest we wait for 2006 simply means we accept the illegality of yet another election. It means there is no price to pay for fraud.

[Poppyseedman]

42. In political battles

There are two types of way to fight
You fight to win when you have the advantage or you fight to survive when your backs are against the wall.

Very few people win political battles that you fight to survive. History may love to tell the tales of those who do win, but it's a rarity. Clinton did it in 92. John Kerry is no Bill Clinton.

The best way to win this political battle is to get a little advantage, We have none as of now, but we will in the future. The repugs will screw up and hand it to us. We must wait for that moment.

I know I am a dissenting voice on this thread, just the way I see it.

I do respect your passion.

[Boredtodeath]

44. It's no longer a POLITICAL battle

It is the battle for democracy itself. This isn't about politics (yet another talking point, BTW - naming us political sore losers) but about the very basis of a democratic society - the right to vote and have that vote counted as cast.

There are no politics in this battle.

[Poppyseedman]

46. You are certainly entitled to your opinion

With Kerry getting 48 plus % of the vote, I hardly think we are in a battle for democracy itself. Must we be vigilant, you bet.

Americans core values may reflect a small swing to the right for the time being, but remember the people of this country take their rights as citizens very seriously. Deadly serious.

Are there some serious problems in some states, you bet there is. The states should correct these problems. We should hold their feet to the fire until they do.

In Ohio, as much as I wish it was true. We cannot overcome 118,000 vote difference.

To undermine democracy you need to undermine each individual state as far as elections are concerned, because the federal government doesn't have elections, states do. That's a pretty tall order even for Bush and his evil cabal.

As to your point about my "talking points" that's getting a little tiresome. Just because I respectfully disagree with with you doesn't mean anything besides I have different opinion.

[Kellis]

54. kick

:kick:

[Catherine Vincent]

51. The only people that saw Florida has a laughingstock were republicans.

Did it mess you up so bad that you voted for Bush** in 2004?

[lonestarnot]

14. kick

:toast: :kick: :thumbsup: :grouphug: :yourock:

[catgirl]

18. Thanks Lonestarnot!

[jdog]

20. "But the numbers appear small and the incidents relatively few. "

How can they say that when they don't know how many people intended to vote for Kerry and the vote went elsewhere? Only the indicators that made them discover the situation (an unusually high number of votes for independent candidates) are small numbers. They have no way of knowing - isn't that true?

[read the law first]

34. If you gave Kerry ALL non-Bush votes, would you have enough?

In an election contest, you have to show illegal ballots or unlawful votes that exceed the margin and in some states the margin PLUS the undervote.

So, I say again, with the information that has been accumulated on DU, if we had a margin of 527 like Flordia, we're golden. But we don't we've got a margin of 119,000.

We can prove voter suppression. We can prove ballot errors. We can prove mix ups. These are all good for Hillary's run in 2008 so the repugs won't steal that one but they won't set aside this election unless we can show the margin plus the undervote plus 1. Now, a recount of the undervote will certainly reduce the margin somewhat but there will still be undervotes no matter how many times you recount because some people just didn't vote for President for whatever strange and mixed up reason.

The certainty of the standard is the one fun thing about election contests (there aren't many fun things about election contests), if you've got enough, you've got enough and there's nothing that they can do about it. There's no waiting for a jury to come back, there's no indecision. There's no suspense. Either there is enough or there's not.

emunster probably has the best handle on all this from a non-lawyer perspective.

[k8conant]

39. Is this the law in Ohio?

Are you saying that to overturn the vote we have to show Kerry would have been elected in the illegal election?

[read the law first]

50. No. Quite the opposite.

You don't have to show who would have been elected. That's irrelevant. You just have to show more illegal ballots or unlawful votes than the margin plus the undervote. That's what everybody keeps missing. The result will not be to overturn the election. The Courts don't care who would have won. The courts only care if there's illegal ballots or unlawful votes (plus actual voters (not virtual voters) prohibited from voting).

Since it's technically a secret ballot, almost every state makes "who did you vote for" an improper question. They don't care who they voted for, just that they did or did not vote in this race and they did or did not cast a lawful ballot.

That's in a contest. In a recount, you do care who the people voted for. There's a BIG distinctiion that most everybody is missing.

[lonestarnot]

47. appear? Nothing is ever as it appears!

[qanda]

26. How do they make a determination about intent

Before there is even an investigation into how this happened? Some free press we have!!!!

[operafred]

27. kick

kick, kick

[Eric J in MN]

32. There should be a new vote in Ohio.

People were told to put their punchcards in machines which counted their votes for Kerry for the Libertarian.

Other people could only vote if they waited on line for seven hours.

Still other people who are registered voters were told by poll worker that they needed to use a provisioanl ballot, and could deposit it at any table. Their votes were thrown out because the wrong-table=wrong precinct.

[k8conant]

33. I sent this to Countdown n/t

[Kellis]

58. good idea.

:kick:

[k8conant]

40. Previous information from December 7th:

These are the first 2 cases I noted in Cuyahoga County that had weird results like 44 votes for Bednarik in CLEVELAND 3B and 72 votes for Peroutka in CLEVELAND 3I. I found that these results occurred where 2 or more precincts shared a polling place.
There is the distinct possibilty that ballots were run through the wrong tabulator. For example, in the first pair of precincts below if a ballot from 3B were run through 3I's counter Kerry votes would go to Peroutka and Bush votes would be disqualified.

Research by k8conant
My full spreadsheet for the Cuyahoga precincts where I found discrepancies is at:
http://www.frontiernet.net/~kconant/CuyahogaVoteSwitch.xls
Ballots are found at:
http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us/boe/ballots/ballots.htm
Election results are at:
http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us/BOE/results/history/2004/EL52.txt
Poll maps and info are at: http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us/boe/pollmaps/poll.htm


* Precinct..................Badnarik..Bush..Kerry..Disqualified..Peroutka.
* 1702 CLEVELAND 3B.......44......18......471......0.............1.......BALLOT= 1.Kerry.2.Disqualified.3.Peroutka.4.Badnarik.5.Bush
* 1709 CLEVELAND 3I.........1......13......467......0............72......BALLOT= 1.Peroutka.2.Badnarik.3.Bush.4.Kerry.5.Disqualified

* 1806 CLEVELAND 4F........0.......20......299......0..........215.....BALLOT= 1.Kerry.2.Disqualified.3.Peroutka.4.Badnarik.5.Bush
* 1814 CLEVELAND 4N.....164......12......334......0...........10......BALLOT= 1.Badnarik.2.Bush.3.Kerry.4.Disqualified.5.Peroutka







There also may have been problems that don't show in the totals:

as in, Bush votes to Kerry and Kerry to Disqualified (which apparently wasn't even tallied at all)

The problem is just much more obvious when Badnarik or Peroutka get a whole chunk of votes.

[trudyco]

45. AH-HA! I wonder if the reporter found your data k8conant?

But my problem was always that you said they sent it to the wrong tabulator and I thought they'd make sure it was permanent - not caught in a hand recount. Which is what happened. They sent them to the wrong punching booth so they punched in the wrong order. Nothing as malicious as mismatched voters guide on the correct precinct booth, but was it really just incompetence?

Who trained the poll workers? Who combined the precincts (seems to me there was a last minute decision to combine them, is that right)? And were they combined in such a way that Kerry would exact the most harm - if so, hardly innocent on somebody's part??? Hmmmm.

So k8conant, how many Kerry votes do you think were lost?

Wow, you're good!
Trudyco

[lonestarnot]

48. Kick

:kick:

[blue agave]

49. kick

[Smirking_Chimp]

52. Voting roulette

[lonestarnot]

53. kick

:wow: :kick:

[insane_cratic_gal]

55. kick

[StephanieMarie]

56. Here's my letter to the reporter

I just read your article in the Plain Dealer about the mix-up of ballots and precincts in Cuyahoga county. This, added to the other thousands of reports of irregularities and glitches in the Ohio vote make for only one logical conclusion. The Ohio vote is invalid, and you need to call for a “re-do”. I encourage you to use your position as a reporter of the truth to continue to tell the truth about this election.

[RaulVB]

59. Kick

[angrydemocrat]

60. kick

:kick: